Buddhism Hinduism | Buddhist Buddhism

Category: Buddhism Hinduism

Don`t be a stup!

Question:

My Dear Hari Har Singh, Thanks a lot for reading my conditioning and spending your time to reply to me. Kindest regards, Puma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – God can only be realized thru persons` own search.Otherwise it is not a search, it is just a teaching.All the teachings can only help to condition our minds. My dear Hari, Hello Puma, Hari Har please, otherwise I call you PU Hi Hari Har Singh, Hello Puma! I can tell from the way you indicate, these days you seem fine in every respect.I hope always you keep this healhty life. Thank you. Teachers instead of showing us a path,they must have tried to expand our vision on every respect.The path you are talking about might be good for the teacher himself/herself,but whenever it has been given us,or indicated us as a path in our search,it means it can only help to condition our minds,nothing else.It does not help us,instead it disturb us.this is the reality. To be disturbed can be a big help…If disturbance is a big help it means there must be a patalogical case involved.As sadism or something like that. Be careful. Thank you for the warning *ironic* I still have the choice if I walk a path that I see. I don’t see how this would disturb me (in a "negative" sense). It is obvious that you do not see how it disturbs you otherwise you would not defend your these cheaters… Whatever path I walk, it will allways be my path that I walk, because I walk it. No you think it is your path,actually it is your guru`s path. So you even are not aware of it!!!Because you are not acting your own,due to your conditioned mind… Eh, I don’t even have a human Guru who’s path I could walk… but thank you for telling me about my mind and beeing so aware what I’m not aware of I cannot walk a path outside of me. Others walking a path with me does not mean that it is not me who walks this path. Have you ever been on a walk in the woods with more persons than yourself? Was it a less beautiful experience because you had a company? Was it less fullfilling? This walking in a forest is not same with the path of your guru`s dictated path of yours…. Ah, ok… I’m shure – that’s why I gave that example. And a Gurus path is of course a dictated one. How can it be different… You even think they are same,because you are not aware of it yet… That must it be. I achieve one enlightning about myself after another. You know so much about me! Amazing… ) Was it disturbing to you to walk – maybe with your beloved – in the woods? And when your beloved showed you something on the way that you wouldn’t have recognized, have you felt disturbed or conditioned – or have you been thankfull for having a chance to discover something new, to see the world from another point of view? Walking our own path doesn’t mean to constantly invent the wheel anew on our own. Oh yes ,wheel case is different but to realize God is quite different for instance. Really? Gods paths are manifold. Ups! God has no paths… nono no path allowed. Even for God. Walking on ones own path also can mean to accept help from others, to learn from others. To want to do everything alone maybe somewhat noble but also a bit stupid. taking a trip in a forst is quite different ….Don`t mix things easily… To me this is no mixture. And if it is a mixture it is light-hearted. A walk in the woods has no goal. The path is the goal. The same with a spiritual path. "There is no way to happieness, happieness is the Way." – Buddha should have said that… Learning doesn’t mean that I do not do my own experiences. Learning actually is a conditioning, that is why in schools experiments are very important my dear…You even have not noticed this simple fact… Learning is a per se conditioning and therefor bad per se? You may check the validity of my claim by looking around all the present religions.And you will come up to the result that all have different paths,all have their own gurus,as a result,misery is the final point…. No, I don’t see this final point. I see diversity, colourfullness, creativity,… Hindus are fighting with Muslims,Christians are fighting with Muslims, Jews are fighting with muslims,so all seems colorful to you??? That is what you have "learned" (have been conditioned) to see the fighting etc. But that is not all to it. I know much more christians, and Sikhs and Hindus and Muslims and even Atheists that are not fighting and are non violent then I know fighting ones…. It’s human AND godlike. It has non human nor Godlike,sorry,I do not agree!!!! Humans do it. So it must have to do something with the humans. You can say this is not human to do – that means it is not human-moral to kill – I agree. But after some thousands of years of war history I cannot belief that this is something totally alien that is done by humans on the globe every day. And God isn’t only the creator – he is the destroyer too. In a larger scale. Existance is not only creating new things… How boring if all would believe the same and have the same religion. I am not saying same religion, all i am saying misery delivered by religions… I agree. But also lots of goods stuff. The world is not black & white. That would be too easy. There are much more colours. God is creativity. Creativity is a story dear nothing has been created by no one even God does not creat God only Shows up as seen all over. That is it.No creativity,no where,it is imagination of humans… What a creative imagination we have, hm? Religion MUST be colourfull – otherwise it wouldn’t relate to God, that is the source of all creativity. The only cause of this misery is because of their gurus,and also their poor believers… It’s a good thing to believe. Believing is a source of being a stup! Experience is alright but believing is not good at all… That is your belief. Ever had someone believing in you when no one else did? It is an essential experience that can give you the insight in the beauty of believing. Most of them are not poor people. Have you ever meet people believing in God? No need to believe in God,Believers actually the ones who has not known God… Maybe they believe (trust) because they know (experience)? If one knows,he/she does not belive, if one belives he/she does not know, it is so simple…. Yes, simplicity is your favorite But again: The world to me is not that simple. And people are much more different than black & white, believers & non beliefers, stups & non-stups, etc. When you go after a person,accepting him/her as a holy person,as a guru in your words,you are in trouble…. Oh, yes – indeed! It can be a wounderful trouble! You must be out of your mind ,what a No, not cheaters – lovers Come on , I always thought you were a very smart man,plese act accordingly as a smart man does. LOL You want me to act according to your conditioning you’ll have about me? That really is funny! ) We are humans, we are not like animals,animals have to follow each other,as it is easier for them.But for human,we have to gain our own search,our own path,my path should be different then yours, Yes, it is. But even if we would walk together the same path in the woods, it would still be our own walked individual path. Because what you see and experience while you walk this path is different from what I experience while walking this path. It maybe the same path in the woods, but what makes it individual is the experience of the person. This path is not the one in woods… If I walk in the woods all i see is God – everywhere. Your own personal fragrance. And that’s what walking a path is about! Your own experience. It’s not about the outside. What’s happening in the woods. What’s happening in me and you – that’s why we walk this path. Right? No sir these are different situations,so you can not give them as an example. I can give as an example whatever I want! ) These examples are based on my knowing<. We are talking about spiritual matters not

Response:

Thanks but I do not follow any path….There is no path to follow,Everything I see is God,everything is a piece of God,so why should I follow any path to find what???But I thank you for your kind wishes anyway.

nice, very nice.

Response:

Dear Anon, Nice things we see in others are the reflection of our own nature. You are very nice, Puma

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – God can only be realized thru persons` own search.Otherwise it is not a search, it is just a teaching.All the teachings can only help to condition our minds. My dear Hari, Hello Puma, Hari Har please, otherwise I call you PU Hi Hari Har Singh,

Hello Puma! I can tell from the way you indicate, these days you seem fine in every respect.I hope always you keep this healhty life. Thank you. Teachers instead of showing us a path,they must have tried to expand our vision on every respect.The path you are talking about might be good for the teacher himself/herself,but whenever it has been given us,or indicated us as a path in our search,it means it can only help to condition our minds,nothing else.It does not help us,instead it disturb us.this is the reality. To be disturbed can be a big help…If disturbance is a big help it

means there must be a patalogical case involved.As sadism or something like that. Be careful. Thank you for the warning *ironic* I still have the choice if I walk a path that I see. I don’t see how this would disturb me (in a "negative" sense). It is obvious that you do not see how it disturbs you otherwise you would not defend your these cheaters… Whatever path I walk, it will allways be my path that I walk, because I walk it. No you think it is your path,actually it is your guru`s path. So you even are not aware of it!!!Because you are not acting your own,due to your conditioned mind…

Eh, I don’t even have a human Guru who’s path I could walk… but thank you for telling me about my mind and beeing so aware what I’m not aware of I cannot walk a path outside of me. Others walking a path with me does not mean that it is not me who walks this path. Have you ever been on a walk in the woods with more persons than yourself? Was it a less beautiful experience because you had a company? Was it less fullfilling? This walking in a forest is not same with the path of your guru`s dictated path of yours….

Ah, ok… I’m shure – that’s why I gave that example. And a Gurus path is of course a dictated one. How can it be different… You even think they are same,because you are not aware of it yet…

That must it be. I achieve one enlightning about myself after another. You know so much about me! Amazing… ) Was it disturbing to you to walk – maybe with your beloved – in the woods? And when your beloved showed you something on the way that you wouldn’t have recognized, have you felt disturbed or conditioned – or have you been thankfull for having a chance to discover something new, to see the world from another point of view? Walking our own path doesn’t mean to constantly invent the wheel anew on our own. Oh yes ,wheel case is different but to realize God is quite different for instance.

Really? Gods paths are manifold. Ups! God has no paths… nono no path allowed. Even for God. Walking on ones own path also can mean to accept help from others, to learn from others. To want to do everything alone maybe somewhat noble but also a bit stupid. taking a trip in a forst is quite different ….Don`t mix things easily…

To me this is no mixture. And if it is a mixture it is light-hearted. A walk in the woods has no goal. The path is the goal. The same with a spiritual path. "There is no way to happieness, happieness is the Way." – Buddha should have said that… Learning doesn’t mean that I do not do my own experiences. Learning actually is a conditioning, that is why in schools experiments are very important my dear…You even have not noticed this simple fact…

Learning is a per se conditioning and therefor bad per se? You may check the validity of my claim by looking around all the present religions.And you will come up to the result that all have different paths,all have their own gurus,as a result,misery is the final point…. No, I don’t see this final point. I see diversity, colourfullness, creativity,… Hindus are fighting with Muslims,Christians are fighting with Muslims, Jews are fighting with muslims,so all seems colorful to you???

That is what you have "learned" (have been conditioned) to see the fighting etc. But that is not all to it. I know much more christians, and Sikhs and Hindus and Muslims and even Atheists that are not fighting and are non violent then I know fighting ones…. It’s human AND godlike. It has non human nor Godlike,sorry,I do not agree!!!!

Humans do it. So it must have to do something with the humans. You can say this is not human to do – that means it is not human-moral to kill – I agree. But after some thousands of years of war history I cannot belief that this is something totally alien that is done by humans on the globe every day. And God isn’t only the creator – he is the destroyer too. In a larger scale. Existance is not only creating new things… How boring if all would believe the same and have the same religion. I am not saying same religion, all i am saying misery delivered by religions…

I agree. But also lots of goods stuff. The world is not black & white. That would be too easy. There are much more colours. God is creativity. Creativity is a story dear nothing has been created by no one even God does not creat God only Shows up as seen all over. That is it.No creativity,no where,it is imagination of humans…

What a creative imagination we have, hm? Religion MUST be colourfull – otherwise it wouldn’t relate to God, that is the source of all creativity. The only cause of this misery is because of their gurus,and also their poor believers… It’s a good thing to believe. Believing is a source of being a stup! Experience is alright but believing is not good at all…

That is your belief. Ever had someone believing in you when no one else did? It is an essential experience that can give you the insight in the beauty of believing. Most of them are not poor people. Have you ever meet people believing in God? No need to believe in God,Believers actually the ones who has not known God…

Maybe they believe (trust) because they know (experience)? If one knows,he/she does not belive, if one belives he/she does not know, it is so simple….

Yes, simplicity is your favorite But again: The world to me is not that simple. And people are much more different than black & white, believers & non beliefers, stups & non-stups, etc. When you go after a person,accepting him/her as a holy person,as a guru in your words,you are in trouble…. Oh, yes – indeed! It can be a wounderful trouble! You must be out of your mind ,what a

No, not cheaters – lovers Come on , I always thought you were a very smart man,plese act

accordingly as a smart man does. LOL You want me to act according to your conditioning you’ll have about me? That really is funny! ) We are humans, we are not like animals,animals have to follow each other,as it is easier for them.But for human,we have to gain our own search,our own path,my path should be different then yours, Yes, it is. But even if we would walk together the same path in the woods, it would still be our own walked individual path. Because what you see and experience while you walk this path is different from what I experience while walking this path. It maybe the same path in the woods, but what makes it individual is the experience of the person. This path is not the one in woods…

If I walk in the woods all i see is God – everywhere. Your own personal fragrance. And that’s what walking a path is about! Your own experience. It’s not about the outside. What’s happening in the woods. What’s happening in me and you – that’s why we walk this path. Right? No sir these are different situations,so you can not give them as an example.

I can give as an example whatever I want! ) These examples are based on my knowing<. We are talking about spiritual matters not the physical ones…

It’s an example… But indeed: There is no difference about that. As outside – the inside. Physical Matter in the woods to me is just frozen spirit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, it is good to have individual paths, colourfull different paths people can walk – but it shouldn’t be a self-reason to have an individual path on your own for every person as you describe it. Because, then you are missing something important. If everybody is walking his / her path alone he / she misses the experience of walking together. And that can be a very beautiful experience as I experienced it in many Yogaclasses too. if yours is ofcourse your own path, not the one of your GURUS`. But gurus indicate your path,

No, a good Guru TAKES AWAY every path from you and teach you walking on your own! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – how

Response:

Hi Hari Har Singh, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can tell from the way you indicate, these days you seem fine in every respect.I hope always you keep this healhty life. Thank you. Teachers instead of showing us a path,they must have tried to expand our vision on every respect.The path you are talking about might be good for the teacher himself/herself,but whenever it has been given us,or indicated us as a path in our search,it means it can only help to condition our minds,nothing else.It does not help us,instead it disturb us.this is the reality. To be disturbed can be a big help…If disturbance is a big help it means there must be a patalogical case involved.As sadism or something like that. Be careful. I still have the choice if I walk a path that I see. I don’t see how this would disturb me (in a "negative" sense).

It is obvious that you do not see how it disturbs you otherwise you would not defend your these cheaters… Whatever path I walk, it will allways be my path that I walk, because I walk it.

No you think it is your path,actually it is your guru`s path. So you even are not aware of it!!!Because you are not acting your own,due to your conditioned mind… I cannot walk a path outside of me. Others walking a path with me does not mean that it is not me who walks this path. Have you ever been on a walk in the woods with more persons than yourself? Was it a less beautiful experience because you had a company? Was it less fullfilling?

This walking in a forest is not same with the path of your guru`s dictated path of yours….You even think they are same,because you are not aware of it yet… Was it disturbing to you to walk – maybe with your beloved – in the woods? And when your beloved showed you something on the way that you wouldn’t have recognized, have you felt disturbed or conditioned – or have you been thankfull for having a chance to discover something new, to see the world from another point of view? Walking our own path doesn’t mean to constantly invent the wheel anew on our own.

Oh yes ,wheel case is different but to realize God is quite different for instance. Walking on ones own path also can mean to accept help from others, to learn from others. To want to do everything alone maybe somewhat noble but also a bit stupid.

taking a trip in a forst is quite different ….Don`t mix things easily… Learning doesn’t mean that I do not do my own experiences.

Learning actually is a conditioning, that is why in schools experiments are very important my dear…You even have not noticed this simple fact… You may check the validity of my claim by looking around all the present religions.And you will come up to the result that all have different paths,all have their own gurus,as a result,misery is the final point…. No, I don’t see this final point. I see diversity, colourfullness, creativity,…

Hindus are fighting with Muslims,Christians are fighting with Muslims, Jews are fighting with muslims,so all seems colorful to you??? It’s human AND godlike.

It has non human nor Godlike,sorry,I do not agree!!!! How boring if all would believe the same and have the same religion.

I am not saying same religion, all i am saying misery delivered by religions… God is creativity.

Creativity is a story dear nothing has been created by no one even God does not creat God only Shows up as seen all over. That is it.No creativity,no where,it is imagination of humans… Religion MUST be colourfull – otherwise it wouldn’t relate to God, that is the source of all creativity. The only cause of this misery is because of their gurus,and also their poor believers… It’s a good thing to believe.

Believing is a source of being a stup! Experience is alright but believing is not good at all… Most of them are not poor people. Have you ever meet people believing in God?

No need to believe in God,Believers actually the ones who has not known God… If one knows,he/she does not belive, if one belives he/she does not know, it is so simple…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you go after a person,accepting him/her as a holy person,as a guru in your words,you are in trouble…. Oh, yes – indeed! We are humans, we are not like animals,animals have to follow each other,as it is easier for them.But for human,we have to gain our own search,our own path,my path should be different then yours, Yes, it is. But even if we would walk together the same path in the woods, it would still be our own walked individual path. Because what you see and experience while you walk this path is different from what I experience while walking this path. It maybe the same path in the woods, but what makes it individual is the experience of the person.

This path is not the one in woods… Your own personal fragrance. And that’s what walking a path is about! Your own experience. It’s not about the outside. What’s happening in the woods. What’s happening in me and you – that’s why we walk this path. Right?

No sir these are different situations,so you can not give them as an example. We are talking about spiritual matters not the physical ones… So, it is good to have individual paths, colourfull different paths people can walk – but it shouldn’t be a self-reason to have an individual path on your own for every person as you describe it. Because, then you are missing something important. If everybody is walking his / her path alone he / she misses the experience of walking together. And that can be a very beautiful experience as I experienced it in many Yogaclasses too. if yours is ofcourse your own path, not the one of your GURUS`.

But gurus indicate your path, how you will do it they indicate, so you are all depending on what he/she has said to you…If you do something different,you will think that you don`t follow your guru…So this will not fit the tradition and the teaching…So you are in touble,a sort of… And how about it if somebody decides on his own path to have a Guru? Not everybody following a Guru is a soul-less robot.

Soul is something that really there is not my dear. I see that you even have a faith in soul… I believe, many of them are lovers. They feel a deep love. And a lover sees the holyness in the beloved. And they believe in their beloved. They follow the beloved where ever he / she goes.

They are following lovers just to get something out of him/her something always attached to it ,so it is actually a sort of merchandise… They are not rationalizing. No Ego.

In loving there is a very strong ego involved… You are sleeping my dear…You must get up soon..Or you must have reading stories very often! A very intimate relationship.

This relationship is dependent on a sort of exchange…Always…both get something out of other.. And a "good" Guru is a mirror to them and reflects this love coming from them to show his / her deciples their own holyness within.

This is written in the books. But not correct.As there is no guru in reality… But it is a love-relatoionship. This must be understood.

No sir it is an exchange so you are mistaken here too. So, it cannot really be explained with words, or rationalized, etc. It only can be experienced.

Yes surely if you have been cheated it is a real experience, but you have a brain, before been cheated you should see the situation,otherwise no need that brain… I don’t want to judge people who decided for themself to experience and live a life like this for beeing poor or so. I meet loving and beautiful people who had this deep love within, nothing poor on them.

You may clearly see the poor people, no need to describe them,as everybody has an agreement on this. In this case our different paths will meet in the same final point to the astonisment of the majority.People have been sent into the wrong places along the history. Why this happened reflects how I am right in the reality of these gurus. There is nothing as "the" reality.

Where do you live my dear? Don`t you see the sun,if it is not a reality,what can I say to you! If you open your eyes you can see the different realitys. "Reality of these Gurus" maybe even much more different…

Oh for sure,most of the time a cheater is present called a guru!!! And you in their reality maybe a spark in the night.

Forget about my case I never can be within the cheaters.. No place for me within the cheaters,sorry for that…. And "right & wrong" belongs to the reality of duality.

Oh ,oh,, there are cheaters ,cheaters can never be right….Yeep…This is it! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Almost all the religions are enemies to each other,even they might kill each other for a holiness! It’s not the religion that

Response:

God can only be realized thru persons` own search.Otherwise it is not a search, it is just a teaching.All the teachings can only help to condition our minds. My dear Hari,

Hello Puma, Hari Har please, otherwise I call you PU I can tell from the way you indicate, these days you seem fine in every respect.I hope always you keep this healhty life.

Thank you. Teachers instead of showing us a path,they must have tried to expand our vision on every respect.The path you are talking about might be good for the teacher himself/herself,but whenever it has been given us,or indicated us as a path in our search,it means it can only help to condition our minds,nothing else.It does not help us,instead it disturb us.this is the reality.

To be disturbed can be a big help… I still have the choice if I walk a path that I see. I don’t see how this would disturb me (in a "negative" sense). Whatever path I walk, it will allways be my path that I walk, because I walk it. I cannot walk a path outside of me. Others walking a path with me does not mean that it is not me who walks this path. Have you ever been on a walk in the woods with more persons than yourself? Was it a less beautiful experience because you had a company? Was it less fullfilling? Was it disturbing to you to walk – maybe with your beloved – in the woods? And when your beloved showed you something on the way that you wouldn’t have recognized, have you felt disturbed or conditioned – or have you been thankfull for having a chance to discover something new, to see the world from another point of view? Walking our own path doesn’t mean to constantly invent the wheel anew on our own. Walking on ones own path also can mean to accept help from others, to learn from others. To want to do everything alone maybe somewhat noble but also a bit stupid. Learning doesn’t mean that I do not do my own experiences. You may check the validity of my claim by looking around all the present religions.And you will come up to the result that all have different paths,all have their own gurus,as a result,misery is the final point….

No, I don’t see this final point. I see diversity, colourfullness, creativity,… It’s human AND godlike. How boring if all would believe the same and have the same religion. God is creativity. Religion MUST be colourfull – otherwise it wouldn’t relate to God, that is the source of all creativity. The only cause of this misery is because of their gurus,and also their poor believers…

It’s a good thing to believe. Most of them are not poor people. Have you ever meet people believing in God? When you go after a person,accepting him/her as a holy person,as a guru in your words,you are in trouble….

Oh, yes – indeed! It can be a wounderful trouble! We are humans, we are not like animals,animals have to follow each other,as it is easier for them.But for human,we have to gain our own search,our own path,my path should be different then yours,

Yes, it is. But even if we would walk together the same path in the woods, it would still be our own walked individual path. Because what you see and experience while you walk this path is different from what I experience while walking this path. It maybe the same path in the woods, but what makes it individual is the experience of the person. Your own personal fragrance. And that’s what walking a path is about! Your own experience. It’s not about the outside. What’s happening in the woods. What’s happening in me and you – that’s why we walk this path. Right? So, it is good to have individual paths, colourfull different paths people can walk – but it shouldn’t be a self-reason to have an individual path on your own for every person as you describe it. Because, then you are missing something important. If everybody is walking his / her path alone he / she misses the experience of walking together. And that can be a very beautiful experience as I experienced it in many Yogaclasses too. if yours is ofcourse your own path, not the one of your GURUS`.

And how about it if somebody decides on his own path to have a Guru? Not everybody following a Guru is a soul-less robot. I believe, many of them are lovers. They feel a deep love. And a lover sees the holyness in the beloved. And they believe in their beloved. They follow the beloved where ever he / she goes. They are not rationalizing. No Ego. A very intimate relationship. And a "good" Guru is a mirror to them and reflects this love coming from them to show his / her deciples their own holyness within. But it is a love-relatoionship. This must be understood. So, it cannot really be explained with words, or rationalized, etc. It only can be experienced. I don’t want to judge people who decided for themself to experience and live a life like this for beeing poor or so. I meet loving and beautiful people who had this deep love within, nothing poor on them. In this case our different paths will meet in the same final point to the astonisment of the majority.People have been sent into the wrong places along the history. Why this happened reflects how I am right in the reality of these gurus.

There is nothing as "the" reality. If you open your eyes you can see the different realitys. "Reality of these Gurus" maybe even much more different… And you in their reality maybe a spark in the night. And "right & wrong" belongs to the reality of duality. Almost all the religions are enemies to each other,even they might kill each other for a holiness!

It’s not the religion that kills. In the Koran there is nothing written about suicide-bombing making you a holy person. It’s the people that kill each other for reasons of religion (that’s what they think) And that is human. That is suffering. Suffering is human. And it is duality. Thinking of "right" & "wrong" – "poor believers" and "bad gurus" – bomb them away! Then they are gone and only the "right ones" are left. That is what some people really think…! I think that’s where the trouble starts if people think and believe (!) "They are BAD and I am BETTER." That is what we have to overcome. And heal the wounds. That is really a long path to go… Tolerance is spiritual. Actually they all are wrong.

If you say so…. But the only thing you do with this is to bring yourself in some trouble and disturbance. Or do you think that anyone of the rest 5 billion believers on the globe does care about this believe of yours? If we are to realize anything,this should be the first thing before starting our any search.This is correct even for GOD.Actually we are in GOD and GOD in us,no need any guru to see or to realize this, even an atheist has an explanation of the totality of this existence.

That may be true for you and me, but realize, that paths are manifold, and to some people a Guru is the path. Who are we to judge that? As I and Osho stated before: Don’t get so much attached with words. GOD is just another word for what you describe. As Guru is another word for Teacher. In school you had teachers too who taught you english. So not all teachers are bad. A Guru teaches you about spiritual issues. So his/her vision also correct.Names are just words as every one knows it. So no points I can give to Osho.Before stating any smart type of words he should have paid his taxes in the States at the first place…

LOL Only tax paying spiritual people are allowed to speak? Interesting theory. Sounds like George Orwell. If you see what the US gouvernment does with the taxes, everybody NOT paying US taxes should be proud of it! And many more smart actions with beatifull girls…

Yealous? Yes all clearly indicate that there are only smart people in this world but not gurus… I hope you have enough info regarding Osho…

Yes, I love this guy! As can be seen, he keeps people in trouble even 13 years after he died, what a Guru! He is so wounderfull political and spiritual in-correct. Did you recall his Rolls Royce coup? What a satirical attack on the capitalistic world – having a different Rolls Royce for every day )) And afterwards sell them with a + to rich american diciples… *hehe* Sounds like Ebay to me If not you may check it in the internet…Please do not attach ourselves to the other peoples` words or suggestions. Do as you do here what you are doing in reply to my words. These should be the action actually toward smart gurus in the first place…

Sorry, I didn’t quite understood what you requested from me now. But, yes, i will continue doing what i do. My dear,let us drop all the conditions from our minds,only then we can succeed in every action of our human nature.

I don’t know that I share mind-conditions with you… You are a bit obsessed with conditions, right? May you succeed on your path! Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh No, I’m not a follower of Osho. But I do love this freak.

Response:

Who is the stup? Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh

My dear Hari, It is for sure Guys or gals called gurus are really smart people.Stup is the one who believes their wordings.What a hard work is mine to explain the conditioning minds,so that one can not get anywhere,they can only walk within a funny road called path (Actually a psison built by these smart gurus)by these smart people! Minds are conditioned so deeply that stup still not found! Best wishes Puma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.sikhnet.com/s/GuruGranthSahib About The Siri Guru Granth Sahib The Guru Granth Sahib was first compiled by the Fifth Sikh Guru, Arjan Dev, in 1604 in the city of Amritsar. Its second and last version was the handiwork of Guru Gobind Singh, and it was finalized at Damdama Sahib in the year 1705. He added the hymns of his father, Guru Tegh Bahadur, the Ninth Master, and a couplet of his own to the volume wrought a century earlier. Since then, the authorized version has been transcribed and printed a number of times, and it abides. Its adoration or veneration is an article of faith with the Sikhs. Religious literature is sometimes sectarian and monolithic, if not partisan and polemical. It may admit of few variations and shades. No word but its own may be allowed sanctity and sovereignty. One of the greatest glories of the Guru Granth Sahib is its catholic character. Hardly any other scripture of that stature is completely free from bias, animus and controversy. Indeed, the uniqueness of the Granth in this respect is all the more astonishing when we think of the obscurantism, factionalism and fanaticism of the period in which it was composed. Perhaps it is the only scripture of its kind which contains within its sacred covers the songs, hymns and utterances of a wide variety of saints, sages and bards. For, it is instructive to note that a fairly substantial part of the volume carries the compositions of Hindu bhaktas, Muslim divines, Sufi poets and other God-intoxicated souls. Of course, their hymns and couplets rendered in their own idiom find a ready correspondence in the songs of the Sikh Gurus. Obviously, the idea of Guru Arjan Dev was to affirm the fundamental unity of all religions, and the unitary character of all mystic experience. It was, so to speak, an integral congress of minds and spirits operating on the same spiritual beam. To have thus elevated the songs of the bhaktas and the bhats to the condition of the logos was to salute the power of the word whatever form it might take to reveal the glory of God. For, it may be observed that Guru Granth Sahib comprehends the compositions and utterances of the high-born Brahmins and the proud Kashatriyas as also of the so called lowly Shudras and the unlettered Jats. This was done at a time when the caste system in India had paralysed the conscience of man. The revolutionary egalitarianism which such a step symbolized was, therefore, to become the creed of the Sikhs. Above all, a poetic and mystic collage bespeaks the essential humility of the Sikh mind, for humility has been given pride of place in the table of virtues drawn up by the Gurus. The Guru Granth Sahib, then, is a sui generis scripture in the world. It is indeed, a magnificent compendium of the religious, mystic and metaphysical poetry written or uttered between the 12th Century and the 17th in different parts of India. It is, also, at the same time, a mirror of the sociological, economic and political conditions of those days. The satire on the reactionary and tyrannical rulers, on the obscurantist clergy and sects, on the fake fakirs and their like, is open, uncompromising and telling. In showing the path to spiritual salvation, the Guru Granth does not ignore the secular and creative side of man. The poetry of the Guru Granth is in itself a subject worthy of the highest consideration. The language principally employed is the language of the saints evolved during the medieval period-a language which, allowing for variations, still enjoyed wide currency in Northern India. Its appeal lay in its directness, energy and resilience. Based upon some of the local dialects, it was leavened with expressions from Sanskrit, Prakrit, Persian and Arabic. Another outstanding feature of the Guru Granth Sahib is the precision of its prosody. While a great deal of it, cast in traditional verse forms (salokas and pauris), could best be understood in the context of the well-known classical ragas, its hymns and songs make use of popular folk meters such as alahanis, ghoris, chands etc. The integral relationship between music and verse has been maintained with scholarly rectitude and concern. This complete musicalisation of thought in a scientific and studied manner makes for the unusually rigorous, yet supple, discipline of the Granth’s metrics and notations. The entire Bani whose printed version in its current format comes to 1430 pages is divided into 33 sections. While the first section comprises the soulful and inspiring song of the Japji composed by Guru Nanak as also a few selected pauris or couplets, the final section is collection of assorted verses including the shalokas and the swayyas of the bhattas. The remaining 31 sections are named after the well-known classical ragas such as sri, magh, gauri, gujri, devghandhari, dhanassari, bilawal, kedara, malhar, kalyan etc. The division, thus, is strictly based on Indian musicology. Furthermore, each psalm or song is preceded by a number (mohalla) which denotes the name of the composer-Guru from Guru Nanak onwards. It may be noted that the apostolic succession extends from the First to the Tenth Guru, and that the Gurus are often referred to reverentially by their place in the order. What is more, each Guru speaks in the name of the Founder Guru whose spirit permeates his successors. The House of Nanak is indeed a spiritual decagon based upon a complete, inviolate geometry of vision. The major hymns-Japji (Guru Nanak), Anand (Guru Amar Das), Sukhmani (Guru Arjan Dev), Rehras (Guru Nanak, Guru Ram Das, Guru Arjan Dev) are widely recited solo and in congregation by the faithful as morning and evening prayers. Their soothing and ambrosial airs have brought solace and cheer to countless people all over the world. The Sikh philosophy as embodied in the Guru Granth Sahib is chiefly a philosophy of action, deed and consequence. Though in its essentials, it is completely in tune with the ancient Indian thought regarding the genesis of the world and the ultimate nature of reality, it moves away from queitism, passivity and abstractions. The emphasis is on shared communal experience, and on purposive and idealistic involvement. The extinction of the ego or self is the corner-stone of Sikhism. A person, we learn, finds fulfillment only by immersion in the sea of life. Thus, the path of renunciation, abdication, aloofness, flagellation etc., so typical of Hindu thought, is abjured. It’s enjoined on a Sikh to be an insider, viewing with disturst all forms of alienation. Of course, the ideal Sikh is supposed to cultivate the qualities of contemplation, stillness and inwardness in the midst of labor business and engagement. He too regards the world as ultimately Maya or illusion, and the life of man as a tableau of light and shade, but the Nirvana may not be achieved except through an acceptance of the reality of this unreality, and a proper disposition of the allotted role in the phantasmagoria of life. To that extent, the relative concreteness or solidity of the world is to be endorsed as a measure of understanding. So long as man has a role to play, the artifact of the stage or the theater has to be taken for granted. For, it has thus pleased the Creator to bring about the world and people it with multiples of His self. And the whole creation moves according to a predestined plan. Many a time has the grand show on earth been mounted and dismantled. It is not given to creature man to fully comprehend the essence of reality. As for the concept of the Godhead in the Guru Granth Sahib, it sets upon the trinity of sat chit and anand. God is omnipotent and omniscient. He is the Initiator and the End. He is Self-Creator and Self-Propeller. The soul too in its essence symbolizes this trinity or the God within, though quite often it loses the state of bliss as a result of the ego and the Id. Caught in the meshes of power and pelf, it loses its true moorings, and is tossed about by the whirligig of time. A soul thus abandoned by the Lord, or alienated from Him, keeps spinning through aeons and aeons of suffering. The road to heaven is paved with pity and piety. The idea of the soul as the Lord’s consort is repeated in the Guru Granth Sahib with amazing variations. The mystique of the marriage is invoked time and again to emphasize the indissoluble and ineluctable nature of the union. Man is ordained wife, and commanded to live in the Will of the Lord. Any infidelity or transgression is inconveivable. The nuptial and spousal imagery of the hymns is sensuously rich, apposite and striking. It will thus be seen that the Guru Granth Sahib presents a comprehensive Weltans-Chauung or world-view. It offers a perfect set of values and a practical code of conduct. It is, indeed, the complete teacher. * Adopted from Dr. D.S.Maini’s article in Studies in Sikhism and Comparative Religion, Oct, 1987 The 10 former Sikh Gurus: http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/Register.nsf/Files/Wallpaper2/$file/Si… begin 666 1grey.gif!OpenImageResource @+

Response:

God can only be realized thru persons` own search.Otherwise it is not a search, it is just a teaching.All the teachings can only help to condition our minds.

My dear Hari, I can tell from the way you indicate, these days you seem fine in every respect.I hope always you keep this healhty life. Teachers instead of showing us a path,they must have tried to expand our vision on every respect.The path you are talking about might be good for the teacher himself/herself,but whenever it has been given us,or indicated us as a path in our search,it means it can only help to condition our minds,nothing else.It does not help us,instead it disturb us.this is the reality. You may check the validity of my claim by looking around all the present religions.And you will come up to the result that all have different paths,all have their own gurus,as a result,misery is the final point…. The only cause of this misery is because of their gurus,and also their poor believers…When you go after a person,accepting him/her as a holy person,as a guru in your words,you are in trouble….We are humans, we are not like animals,animals have to follow each other,as it is easier for them.But for human,we have to gain our own search,our own path,my path should be different then yours,if yours is ofcourse your own path, not the one of your GURUS`. In this case our different paths will meet in the same final point to the astonisment of the majority.People have been sent into the wrong places along the history. Why this happened reflects how I am right in the reality of these gurus. Almost all the religions are enemies to each other,even they might kill each other for a holiness! Actually they all are wrong. If we are to realize anything,this should be the first thing before starting our any search.This is correct even for GOD.Actually we are in GOD and GOD in us,no need any guru to see or to realize this, even an atheist has an explanation of the totality of this existence.So his/her vision also correct.Names are just words as every one knows it.So no points I can give to Osho.Before stating any smart type of words he should have paid his taxes in the States at the first place…And many more smart actions with beatifull girls…Yes all clearly indicate that there are only smart people in this world but not gurus… I hope you have enough info regarding Osho…If not you may check it in the internet…Please do not attach ourselves to the other peoples` words or suggestions. Do as you do here what you are doing in reply to my words. These should be the action actually toward smart gurus in the first place… My dear,let us drop all the conditions from our minds,only then we can succeed in every action of our human nature. With best wishes to you all, Puma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Right. A teacher cannot search for me. But he can show a path – one can decide to walk along alone (or decide not to do so). He can be a companion for some time too, as long as one needs it. My Yogamaster once said that he is just the mailman delivering the letters. If I read the letter or throw it in the dustbin is none of his business. And indeed, as I read here too: Everything can be a teacher to a person. If one is meditating everything and every situation is indeed a teacher. So, the Guru in the outside and his representation is just an reflection of the Guru to be found within. Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh And we shouldn’t stick too much to words / lables As Osho said: "The word `God’ is not God. The word `love’ is not love. The word `fire’ is not fire. So the first thing is to remember: don’t get attached too much to words, don’t get obsessed too much with words. Words are only symbols, indicative: use them, but don’t become burdened too much by them. If the word `god’ creates trouble, forget that word. `Allah’ will do, `Ram’ will do, `X Y Z’ — choose another word if that word has become wrongly associated. But if you start creating a resistance against God himself, against the truth itself only you will be responsible, and only you will be missing something of tremendous value. but this happens. We use language; we become so much obsessed with language that we forget that language is not the reality. In fact, one has to put language aside to see the reality."

Response:

God can only be realized thru persons` own search.Otherwise it is not a search, it is just a teaching.All the teachings can only help to condition our minds.

Right. A teacher cannot search for me. But he can show a path – one can decide to walk along alone (or decide not to do so). He can be a companion for some time too, as long as one needs it. My Yogamaster once said that he is just the mailman delivering the letters. If I read the letter or throw it in the dustbin is none of his business. And indeed, as I read here too: Everything can be a teacher to a person. If one is meditating everything and every situation is indeed a teacher. So, the Guru in the outside and his representation is just an reflection of the Guru to be found within. Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh And we shouldn’t stick too much to words / lables As Osho said: "The word `God’ is not God. The word `love’ is not love. The word `fire’ is not fire. So the first thing is to remember: don’t get attached too much to words, don’t get obsessed too much with words. Words are only symbols, indicative: use them, but don’t become burdened too much by them. If the word `god’ creates trouble, forget that word. `Allah’ will do, `Ram’ will do, `X Y Z’ — choose another word if that word has become wrongly associated. But if you start creating a resistance against God himself, against the truth itself only you will be responsible, and only you will be missing something of tremendous value. but this happens. We use language; we become so much obsessed with language that we forget that language is not the reality. In fact, one has to put language aside to see the reality."

Response:

Puma, you seems to forget an important notion here : we are human.

Gef, May be we are saying the samething in a different color.All I am saying is we are human.Gurus human too.A notion regarding to God can be found in every human being.Look at the religions around,even the notion of God is different.In one religion God is a father, in the other it is Brahman,or Paratma,mostly God is considered as a Creator. But non of these are correct….But always there is a guru in every religion.A guru always is present.But the point we have been sent is not right.It is not right because every guru realizes God according to his/her gurus`indication and teachings.God in Hunduism,God in Christianity or Islam or Judaism is not same God.Anon , says the samething having a right attitude.But all religions have their own gurus too.The point we meet is not same point! Finally one realizes that it is not (God) where he/she has been forwarded! God can only be realized thru persons` own search.Otherwise it is not a search, it is just a teaching.All the teachings can only help to condition our minds. Well, I have talked too much perhaps,without having any reason may be, as people will carry on their own system,but interrogation always is necessary. With best wishes to you all. Puma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And as far has we are human we need others to create passion and to start our questionning. Who would care about the spiritual path, the inside guru God or anything if there was no other human that has written or experienced anything. Of course the fist seers and rishis were pretty lonely, but there is need to be an evolution. You can’t seek God by your only personal concept. You need something to ignite your quest. Of course only personal experience is true knowledge ! Everybody knows thats, Guru aren’t true knowledge but the ones who points where might be that true knowledge.The guru doesn’t do anything else than pointing where we can look for so we don’t waste to many years. Of course if you have been traumatize by a fake guru and didn’t digest it yet I understand your aversion, but that would only been a good lesson that you have to get over…. Namaste the Guru is the only aspect of God considered by the Yogis. This must be your imagination.Because Tibetan Yogis do not believe in God. Secondly you must state where is God notion has come to you? By yourselve or by religious faith? If it is by religious faith,for sure religions,non of them do not know anything about God.So your statement is nil! "God is the Guru of the oldest (human) gurus". God is out of time .so you can not say oldest,as it is always! In many traditions, the human guru is revered as a manifestation of the divine Guru principle, something many people not from the cultural context may not be aware of. These traditions do not mean anything as they have no real value.No absolute value.They are nice stories,like fables…. The aim of the human guru is the to get the student in touch with the divine Guru Tattva. How can you be sure that your (human Guru) himself/herself know anything about God? First of all he/she should learn about God.If he/she know about God then he/she will not talk anything about it! Do you know this reality.If these human gurus ,they themselves do not know about waht God is,which I never seen any guru who really know about God,then how he/she will get the student in touch with God? So please drop it,drop all your conditioned fragments within your mind.Then you will start to see and to hear the real voices and info…And then you may realize God without any conditioned wrong info…. All your sayings are not correct,unless you have any real experience by yourselve.All gurus are fake…If one knows GOD.Then this will be known by itself. best wishes, Puma Don`t be a stup! There is no gurus at all.Whatever you are looking for is within.Persons introducing themselves as gurus are cheating.Remember Satya . Baba and many others…And see what happened later on…If a person accepts being a guru,that means he/she is cheating at the first place. These smart cheaters,always get something from their poor followers,it may be sexual or financial matters.They are not honest…Honest person knows that this sort of a chosen ,holy person is a fake one. With best wishes, Puma

Response:

The Perfect Word from Puma This like a fish looking for water all the time.He is within the water but trying to find it. Non of the gurus can help such a fish.Because if guru he/she knew,wouldn`not attempt to it. *** God, being in the person as well, is looking to return into its own Eternal Identity. That is why the search is never stops for the seeker as long as he/she will be thirsty. And only satisfaction will come from the correction of the breathing, when normal breathing will be changed to automatic De-Reflexation breathing, realizing the sense of Self back into Universe and Eternity. With respect Narayana P.S. keep it simple as possible! http://www.anandamayi.org/om/

Response:

Anon, As you have a guru at an age of 80,and what Patanjali has stated makes very effective on your mind.But non of these can give you any basis regarding GOD.

i’m getting a feeling the cultural sterotypes are playing up here. from what you are saying, you probably refer to the jewish/christian God. In Hinduism, God means the Absolute in which everything exists. (Paramatma), which has no personality or qualities. Unfortunately Hindus tend to use the word God when using english, and that word has many associations. It is the same thing as referred to Void in Buddhism. If you, yourselve, when looking around, and seeing a tree,and some birds on it,and a river from a distance does not give you the notion of God,and if you look for an unseen as if GOD can not be seen,then Whatever I, or any guru state here will not be of help.

As I said before, what matters is whether it is helpful to the seeker. Many have got there worshipping Paramatma, many have got there not worshipping Him as well. Why make a fuss? I find making much more progress believing in Paramatma. You want me to watch my breath all day? I do not have such a high concentration – maybe that is not my path? Please note that GOD is not dependent upon anything even if it becomes a guru,or any other entity.If one is searching God thru another person (Guru)I am sure he/she will be in darkness,if that person has a

again, a guru is a cultural phenomena. It is impossible to communicate properly in a few sentences what the guru or God means to a Hindu. The guru system seems to have worked ok in india, but does not seem to work too well in the west, because they (both guru and disciple) lack the thing called "shraddha" (another word difficult to translate). The west will have to figure its own way out. In the meantime, indians should try to make the best of their heritage, while it is still alive – it is being destroyed by western influence at an amazing rate. looking for water all the time.He is within the water but trying to find it.Non of the gurus can help such a fish.Because if guru he/she knew,wouldn`not attempt to it.

The buddha told the story of the fool who thought his head had gone missing, and found great relief when he realized that the head was fine after all. But it does not end there, buddha (the guru) still expected his disciples to practice, not just make claims based on the buddha’s realizations.

Response:

Anon, As you have a guru at an age of 80,and what Patanjali has stated makes very effective on your mind.But non of these can give you any basis regarding GOD. If you, yourselve, when looking around, and seeing a tree,and some birds on it,and a river from a distance does not give you the notion of God,and if you look for an unseen as if GOD can not be seen,then Whatever I, or any guru state here will not be of help. Please note that GOD is not dependent upon anything even if it becomes a guru,or any other entity.If one is searching God thru another person (Guru)I am sure he/she will be in darkness,if that person has a religion,then he/she has a hard time to realize GOD.This like a fish looking for water all the time.He is within the water but trying to find it.Non of the gurus can help such a fish.Because if guru he/she knew,wouldn`not attempt to it. I wish you all the best, Puma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the Guru is the only aspect of God considered by the Yogis. This must be your imagination.Because Tibetan Yogis do not believe in God. by the yoga tradition, means the yogis in the tradition on Lord Shiva, from whom the yogas originated. Secondly you must state where is God notion has come to you? By by itself, the world seems to function. so God is not visibly necessary. this is why the Sankhyas tend towards atheism. The yogis (in Patanjali book), figured that the primordial sages had to be inspired to enlightenment by someone. Since the sages were the first humans, they could not have a human guru. That someone was considered to be God. "God is the Guru of the oldest (human) gurus". God is out of time .so you can not say oldest,as it is always! God is the Guru of the first human gurus, this what Patanjali says. I have hardly the qualification to contradict Patanjali. In many traditions, the human guru is revered as a manifestation of the divine Guru principle, something many people not from the cultural context may not be aware of. These traditions do not mean anything as they have no real value.No absolute value.They are nice stories,like fables…. There are many many types of people, and they all need different paths. One size does not fit all. Each one is exposed to the path that is best for him/her. The universe is a compassionate place meant for our evolution. The aim of the human guru is the to get the student in touch with the divine Guru Tattva. How can you be sure that your (human Guru) himself/herself know anything about God? First of all he/she should learn about God.If whether s/he knows God is unknowable by anyone except the person. What matters is that the human guru be beneficial to the student, and the relationship be wilfull. It is said that Dattatreya made 24 gurus, even dogs, because they taught him so many things. It is the bhakti which arises within that matters. To _what_ that bhakti is, is not relevant. Even if the bhakti is towards a piece of rock, it has helped the seeker. The rock is hardly affected. he/she know about God then he/she will not talk anything about it! Do belief in God is hardly necessary for yogis. Patanjali mentions surrender to God as a beneficial yoga practice _three_ times, but at the same time mentions other routes to enlightenment, like study of time-moments etc, which ignore God. know about waht God is,which I never seen any guru who really know about God,then how he/she will get the student in touch with God? If you have not met anyone with God experience, it is probably in your best interests. It is my personal experience that things unfold slowly, and as one deserves them. So please drop it,drop all your conditioned fragments within your mind.Then you will start to see and to hear the real voices and what voices? i come from a family with schizophrenia, and really do not like this idea. All your sayings are not correct,unless you have any real experience by yourselve.All gurus are fake…If one knows GOD.Then this will be known by itself. a guru is a guide till the student can see God (the Guru Tattva) by himself. Then the guru and the student are as one. This is what was told to me by my guru, as per tradition. I see little reason why an 80 year old man living in a hut without any trappings of the world, and does not want anything from me, should lie to me. There are many more fakes too, but that is not my personal experience.

Response:

Puma, you seems to forget an important notion here : we are human. And as far has we are human we need others to create passion and to start our questionning. Who would care about the spiritual path, the inside guru God or anything if there was no other human that has written or experienced anything. Of course the fist seers and rishis were pretty lonely, but there is need to be an evolution. You can’t seek God by your only personal concept. You need something to ignite your quest. Of course only personal experience is true knowledge ! Everybody knows thats, Guru aren’t true knowledge but the ones who points where might be that true knowledge.The guru doesn’t do anything else than pointing where we can look for so we don’t waste to many years. Of course if you have been traumatize by a fake guru and didn’t digest it yet I understand your aversion, but that would only been a good lesson that you have to get over…. Namaste – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the Guru is the only aspect of God considered by the Yogis. This must be your imagination.Because Tibetan Yogis do not believe in God. Secondly you must state where is God notion has come to you? By yourselve or by religious faith? If it is by religious faith,for sure religions,non of them do not know anything about God.So your statement is nil! "God is the Guru of the oldest (human) gurus". God is out of time .so you can not say oldest,as it is always! In many traditions, the human guru is revered as a manifestation of the divine Guru principle, something many people not from the cultural context may not be aware of. These traditions do not mean anything as they have no real value.No absolute value.They are nice stories,like fables…. The aim of the human guru is the to get the student in touch with the divine Guru Tattva. How can you be sure that your (human Guru) himself/herself know anything about God? First of all he/she should learn about God.If he/she know about God then he/she will not talk anything about it! Do you know this reality.If these human gurus ,they themselves do not know about waht God is,which I never seen any guru who really know about God,then how he/she will get the student in touch with God? So please drop it,drop all your conditioned fragments within your mind.Then you will start to see and to hear the real voices and info…And then you may realize God without any conditioned wrong info…. All your sayings are not correct,unless you have any real experience by yourselve.All gurus are fake…If one knows GOD.Then this will be known by itself. best wishes, Puma Don`t be a stup! There is no gurus at all.Whatever you are looking for is within.Persons introducing themselves as gurus are cheating.Remember Satya . Baba and many others…And see what happened later on…If a person accepts being a guru,that means he/she is cheating at the first place. These smart cheaters,always get something from their poor followers,it may be sexual or financial matters.They are not honest…Honest person knows that this sort of a chosen ,holy person is a fake one. With best wishes, Puma

Response:

the Guru is the only aspect of God considered by the Yogis. This must be your imagination.Because Tibetan Yogis do not believe in God.

by the yoga tradition, means the yogis in the tradition on Lord Shiva, from whom the yogas originated. Secondly you must state where is God notion has come to you? By

by itself, the world seems to function. so God is not visibly necessary. this is why the Sankhyas tend towards atheism. The yogis (in Patanjali book), figured that the primordial sages had to be inspired to enlightenment by someone. Since the sages were the first humans, they could not have a human guru. That someone was considered to be God. "God is the Guru of the oldest (human) gurus". God is out of time .so you can not say oldest,as it is always!

God is the Guru of the first human gurus, this what Patanjali says. I have hardly the qualification to contradict Patanjali. In many traditions, the human guru is revered as a manifestation of the divine Guru principle, something many people not from the cultural context may not be aware of. These traditions do not mean anything as they have no real value.No absolute value.They are nice stories,like fables….

There are many many types of people, and they all need different paths. One size does not fit all. Each one is exposed to the path that is best for him/her. The universe is a compassionate place meant for our evolution. The aim of the human guru is the to get the student in touch with the divine Guru Tattva. How can you be sure that your (human Guru) himself/herself know anything about God? First of all he/she should learn about God.If

whether s/he knows God is unknowable by anyone except the person. What matters is that the human guru be beneficial to the student, and the relationship be wilfull. It is said that Dattatreya made 24 gurus, even dogs, because they taught him so many things. It is the bhakti which arises within that matters. To _what_ that bhakti is, is not relevant. Even if the bhakti is towards a piece of rock, it has helped the seeker. The rock is hardly affected. he/she know about God then he/she will not talk anything about it! Do

belief in God is hardly necessary for yogis. Patanjali mentions surrender to God as a beneficial yoga practice _three_ times, but at the same time mentions other routes to enlightenment, like study of time-moments etc, which ignore God. know about waht God is,which I never seen any guru who really know about God,then how he/she will get the student in touch with God?

If you have not met anyone with God experience, it is probably in your best interests. It is my personal experience that things unfold slowly, and as one deserves them. So please drop it,drop all your conditioned fragments within your mind.Then you will start to see and to hear the real voices and

what voices? i come from a family with schizophrenia, and really do not like this idea. All your sayings are not correct,unless you have any real experience by yourselve.All gurus are fake…If one knows GOD.Then this will be known by itself.

a guru is a guide till the student can see God (the Guru Tattva) by himself. Then the guru and the student are as one. This is what was told to me by my guru, as per tradition. I see little reason why an 80 year old man living in a hut without any trappings of the world, and does not want anything from me, should lie to me. There are many more fakes too, but that is not my personal experience.

Response:

Realized gurus are very rare. As Yogananada wrote in his autobiography there is usually more men faking spirituality than ernest seekers. But if you find one your progress will be greatly hastened. Yogananda also wrote that if you are ready your real guru will find you. Worship of guru is common parctice in bhakti yoga. It allows you to serve and worship Lord in the person of your guru. If you think that bhakti path is unefficient then choose another… see: http://www.thedivinelifesociety.org/download/gurutattva.htm http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/index.html

Response:

the Guru is the only aspect of God considered by the Yogis.

This must be your imagination.Because Tibetan Yogis do not believe in God. Secondly you must state where is God notion has come to you? By yourselve or by religious faith? If it is by religious faith,for sure religions,non of them do not know anything about God.So your statement is nil! "God is the Guru of the oldest (human) gurus".

God is out of time .so you can not say oldest,as it is always! In many traditions, the human guru is revered as a manifestation of the divine Guru principle, something many people not from the cultural context may not be aware of.

These traditions do not mean anything as they have no real value.No absolute value.They are nice stories,like fables…. The aim of the human guru is the to get the student in touch with the divine Guru Tattva.

How can you be sure that your (human Guru) himself/herself know anything about God? First of all he/she should learn about God.If he/she know about God then he/she will not talk anything about it! Do you know this reality.If these human gurus ,they themselves do not know about waht God is,which I never seen any guru who really know about God,then how he/she will get the student in touch with God? So please drop it,drop all your conditioned fragments within your mind.Then you will start to see and to hear the real voices and info…And then you may realize God without any conditioned wrong info…. All your sayings are not correct,unless you have any real experience by yourselve.All gurus are fake…If one knows GOD.Then this will be known by itself. best wishes, Puma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don`t be a stup! There is no gurus at all.Whatever you are looking for is within.Persons introducing themselves as gurus are cheating.Remember Satya . Baba and many others…And see what happened later on…If a person accepts being a guru,that means he/she is cheating at the first place. These smart cheaters,always get something from their poor followers,it may be sexual or financial matters.They are not honest…Honest person knows that this sort of a chosen ,holy person is a fake one. With best wishes, Puma

Response:

Hehehehe not yet namaste – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Dear I do only blame you. But if you are a guru that means you are very smart! With best wishes, Puma Praise to the guru ! Everything is a guru even false guru are guru serve all worship all If you are true toward yourself toward god you’ll receive everything you need if you get cheated by a guru ask yourself why did you deserve that ! And say thanks for the lesson you learn Don’t cry about fake guru they are blessing for the aspirant They are the best to show you to distach and to always ask yourself Don’t blame the fake guru and then turn to the psychiatrist saying that modern psychology saved you they’r all guru Don’t fear the guru then go back home and sit in front of your television hehehe :P Namaste Don`t be a stup! There is no gurus at all.Whatever you are looking for is within.Persons introducing themselves as gurus are cheating.Remember Satya . Baba and many others…And see what happened later on…If a person accepts being a guru,that means he/she is cheating at the first place. These smart cheaters,always get something from their poor followers,it may be sexual or financial matters.They are not honest…Honest person knows that this sort of a chosen ,holy person is a fake one. With best wishes, Puma

Response:

the Guru is the only aspect of God considered by the Yogis. "God is the Guru of the oldest (human) gurus". In many traditions, the human guru is revered as a manifestation of the divine Guru principle, something many people not from the cultural context may not be aware of. The aim of the human guru is the to get the student in touch with the divine Guru Tattva.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don`t be a stup! There is no gurus at all.Whatever you are looking for is within.Persons introducing themselves as gurus are cheating.Remember Satya . Baba and many others…And see what happened later on…If a person accepts being a guru,that means he/she is cheating at the first place. These smart cheaters,always get something from their poor followers,it may be sexual or financial matters.They are not honest…Honest person knows that this sort of a chosen ,holy person is a fake one. With best wishes, Puma

Response:

Puma! Just SO happy to read your little note! I had quite a good training session today with the new students, explaining De-Reflexation technique and have been asked about how a guru will influence the student. I said that – "when the guru and student have an understanding it is the freedom, if they do not, they will build the prison for each other to protect themselves." We all laughed a bit and it was freedom. I wish you the best! N ref: http://www.anandamayi.org/om/

Response:

My Dear I do only blame you. But if you are a guru that means you are very smart! With best wishes, Puma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Praise to the guru ! Everything is a guru even false guru are guru serve all worship all If you are true toward yourself toward god you’ll receive everything you need if you get cheated by a guru ask yourself why did you deserve that ! And say thanks for the lesson you learn Don’t cry about fake guru they are blessing for the aspirant They are the best to show you to distach and to always ask yourself Don’t blame the fake guru and then turn to the psychiatrist saying that modern psychology saved you they’r all guru Don’t fear the guru then go back home and sit in front of your television hehehe :P Namaste Don`t be a stup! There is no gurus at all.Whatever you are looking for is within.Persons introducing themselves as gurus are cheating.Remember Satya . Baba and many others…And see what happened later on…If a person accepts being a guru,that means he/she is cheating at the first place. These smart cheaters,always get something from their poor followers,it may be sexual or financial matters.They are not honest…Honest person knows that this sort of a chosen ,holy person is a fake one. With best wishes, Puma

Response:

Who is the stup? Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh http://www.sikhnet.com/s/GuruGranthSahib About The Siri Guru Granth Sahib The Guru Granth Sahib was first compiled by the Fifth Sikh Guru, Arjan Dev, in 1604 in the city of Amritsar. Its second and last version was the handiwork of Guru Gobind Singh, and it was finalized at Damdama Sahib in the year 1705. He added the hymns of his father, Guru Tegh Bahadur, the Ninth Master, and a couplet of his own to the volume wrought a century earlier. Since then, the authorized version has been transcribed and printed a number of times, and it abides. Its adoration or veneration is an article of faith with the Sikhs. Religious literature is sometimes sectarian and monolithic, if not partisan and polemical. It may admit of few variations and shades. No word but its own may be allowed sanctity and sovereignty. One of the greatest glories of the Guru Granth Sahib is its catholic character. Hardly any other scripture of that stature is completely free from bias, animus and controversy. Indeed, the uniqueness of the Granth in this respect is all the more astonishing when we think of the obscurantism, factionalism and fanaticism of the period in which it was composed. Perhaps it is the only scripture of its kind which contains within its sacred covers the songs, hymns and utterances of a wide variety of saints, sages and bards. For, it is instructive to note that a fairly substantial part of the volume carries the compositions of Hindu bhaktas, Muslim divines, Sufi poets and other God-intoxicated souls. Of course, their hymns and couplets rendered in their own idiom find a ready correspondence in the songs of the Sikh Gurus. Obviously, the idea of Guru Arjan Dev was to affirm the fundamental unity of all religions, and the unitary character of all mystic experience. It was, so to speak, an integral congress of minds and spirits operating on the same spiritual beam. To have thus elevated the songs of the bhaktas and the bhats to the condition of the logos was to salute the power of the word whatever form it might take to reveal the glory of God. For, it may be observed that Guru Granth Sahib comprehends the compositions and utterances of the high-born Brahmins and the proud Kashatriyas as also of the so called lowly Shudras and the unlettered Jats. This was done at a time when the caste system in India had paralysed the conscience of man. The revolutionary egalitarianism which such a step symbolized was, therefore, to become the creed of the Sikhs. Above all, a poetic and mystic collage bespeaks the essential humility of the Sikh mind, for humility has been given pride of place in the table of virtues drawn up by the Gurus. The Guru Granth Sahib, then, is a sui generis scripture in the world. It is indeed, a magnificent compendium of the religious, mystic and metaphysical poetry written or uttered between the 12th Century and the 17th in different parts of India. It is, also, at the same time, a mirror of the sociological, economic and political conditions of those days. The satire on the reactionary and tyrannical rulers, on the obscurantist clergy and sects, on the fake fakirs and their like, is open, uncompromising and telling. In showing the path to spiritual salvation, the Guru Granth does not ignore the secular and creative side of man. The poetry of the Guru Granth is in itself a subject worthy of the highest consideration. The language principally employed is the language of the saints evolved during the medieval period-a language which, allowing for variations, still enjoyed wide currency in Northern India. Its appeal lay in its directness, energy and resilience. Based upon some of the local dialects, it was leavened with expressions from Sanskrit, Prakrit, Persian and Arabic. Another outstanding feature of the Guru Granth Sahib is the precision of its prosody. While a great deal of it, cast in traditional verse forms (salokas and pauris), could best be understood in the context of the well-known classical ragas, its hymns and songs make use of popular folk meters such as alahanis, ghoris, chands etc. The integral relationship between music and verse has been maintained with scholarly rectitude and concern. This complete musicalisation of thought in a scientific and studied manner makes for the unusually rigorous, yet supple, discipline of the Granth’s metrics and notations. The entire Bani whose printed version in its current format comes to 1430 pages is divided into 33 sections. While the first section comprises the soulful and inspiring song of the Japji composed by Guru Nanak as also a few selected pauris or couplets, the final section is collection of assorted verses including the shalokas and the swayyas of the bhattas. The remaining 31 sections are named after the well-known classical ragas such as sri, magh, gauri, gujri, devghandhari, dhanassari, bilawal, kedara, malhar, kalyan etc. The division, thus, is strictly based on Indian musicology. Furthermore, each psalm or song is preceded by a number (mohalla) which denotes the name of the composer-Guru from Guru Nanak onwards. It may be noted that the apostolic succession extends from the First to the Tenth Guru, and that the Gurus are often referred to reverentially by their place in the order. What is more, each Guru speaks in the name of the Founder Guru whose spirit permeates his successors. The House of Nanak is indeed a spiritual decagon based upon a complete, inviolate geometry of vision. The major hymns-Japji (Guru Nanak), Anand (Guru Amar Das), Sukhmani (Guru Arjan Dev), Rehras (Guru Nanak, Guru Ram Das, Guru Arjan Dev) are widely recited solo and in congregation by the faithful as morning and evening prayers. Their soothing and ambrosial airs have brought solace and cheer to countless people all over the world. The Sikh philosophy as embodied in the Guru Granth Sahib is chiefly a philosophy of action, deed and consequence. Though in its essentials, it is completely in tune with the ancient Indian thought regarding the genesis of the world and the ultimate nature of reality, it moves away from queitism, passivity and abstractions. The emphasis is on shared communal experience, and on purposive and idealistic involvement. The extinction of the ego or self is the corner-stone of Sikhism. A person, we learn, finds fulfillment only by immersion in the sea of life. Thus, the path of renunciation, abdication, aloofness, flagellation etc., so typical of Hindu thought, is abjured. It’s enjoined on a Sikh to be an insider, viewing with disturst all forms of alienation. Of course, the ideal Sikh is supposed to cultivate the qualities of contemplation, stillness and inwardness in the midst of labor business and engagement. He too regards the world as ultimately Maya or illusion, and the life of man as a tableau of light and shade, but the Nirvana may not be achieved except through an acceptance of the reality of this unreality, and a proper disposition of the allotted role in the phantasmagoria of life. To that extent, the relative concreteness or solidity of the world is to be endorsed as a measure of understanding. So long as man has a role to play, the artifact of the stage or the theater has to be taken for granted. For, it has thus pleased the Creator to bring about the world and people it with multiples of His self. And the whole creation moves according to a predestined plan. Many a time has the grand show on earth been mounted and dismantled. It is not given to creature man to fully comprehend the essence of reality. As for the concept of the Godhead in the Guru Granth Sahib, it sets upon the trinity of sat chit and anand. God is omnipotent and omniscient. He is the Initiator and the End. He is Self-Creator and Self-Propeller. The soul too in its essence symbolizes this trinity or the God within, though quite often it loses the state of bliss as a result of the ego and the Id. Caught in the meshes of power and pelf, it loses its true moorings, and is tossed about by the whirligig of time. A soul thus abandoned by the Lord, or alienated from Him, keeps spinning through aeons and aeons of suffering. The road to heaven is paved with pity and piety. The idea of the soul as the Lord’s consort is repeated in the Guru Granth Sahib with amazing variations. The mystique of the marriage is invoked time and again to emphasize the indissoluble and ineluctable nature of the union. Man is ordained wife, and commanded to live in the Will of the Lord. Any infidelity or transgression is inconveivable. The nuptial and spousal imagery of the hymns is sensuously rich, apposite and striking. It will thus be seen that the Guru Granth Sahib presents a comprehensive Weltans-Chauung or world-view. It offers a perfect set of values and a practical code of conduct. It is, indeed, the complete teacher. * Adopted from Dr. D.S.Maini’s article in Studies in Sikhism and Comparative Religion, Oct, 1987 The 10 former Sikh Gurus: http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/Register.nsf/Files/Wallpaper2/$file/Si… begin 666 1grey.gif!OpenImageResource ` end

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Praise to the guru ! Everything is a guru even false guru are guru serve all worship all If you are true toward yourself toward god you’ll receive everything you need if you get cheated by a guru ask yourself why did you deserve that ! And say thanks for the lesson you learn Don’t cry about fake guru they are blessing for the aspirant They are the best to show you to distach and to always ask yourself Don’t blame the fake guru and then turn to the psychiatrist saying that modern psychology saved you they’r all guru Don’t fear the guru then go back home and sit in front of your television hehehe :P Namaste – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don`t be a stup! There is no gurus at all.Whatever you are looking for is within.Persons introducing themselves as gurus are cheating.Remember Satya . Baba and many others…And see what happened later on…If a person accepts being a guru,that means he/she is cheating at the first place. These smart cheaters,always get something from their poor followers,it may be sexual or financial matters.They are not honest…Honest person knows that this sort of a chosen ,holy person is a fake one. With best wishes, Puma

Response:

Don`t be a stup! There is no gurus at all.Whatever you are looking for is within.Persons introducing themselves as gurus are cheating.Remember Satya . Baba and many others…And see what happened later on…If a person accepts being a guru,that means he/she is cheating at the first place. These smart cheaters,always get something from their poor followers,it may be sexual or financial matters.They are not honest…Honest person knows that this sort of a chosen ,holy person is a fake one. With best wishes, Puma

Response:

Buddhism Hinduism

0 RESPONSES

Cross "=" "Mission Ends In Failure"

Question:

Yes, it is true, Jesus failed miserably. I mean here a man who spent the first 30 years of his life as a carpenter, living under Roman tyranny and Jewish culture & law.

Was he a carpenter? Doesn’t one have to EXIST to be a carpenter? Did Rome rule by tyranny? During the last 3 years of his life he begins to preach & teach.

According to the story. (No other references at all.) He gathers around 12 men from many walks of life, fisherman, tax collector, zealot, etc.

As most god-men do. Why exactly 12? What about no. 13? He teaches them and those that would listen that he is God in the flesh, that he has a kingdom, that he can forgive sin, that he is greater then all the prophets that have gone before.

According to the story. (No other references at all.) He tells them that he is the I AM of the old testament, he performs miracles, he says that he will be killed and on the third day rise again.

Which he didn’t. Can you calculate? Friday 15.00 – Sunday 06.00 is not even 2 days. So what happens, he is handed over to the jewish and romen leaders,

Very weird, considering the Jewish authorities could and did administer the dead penalty. he is mocked, whipped, sit upon and then finally crucified

What is so special here? This is the normal procedure for a terrorist sentenced to the cross. and the 12 disciples run and hide for fear. There

Understandably. But… didn’t he gather 13 disciples? king is Gone, they weep, they mourn, they dont believe what he told them.

Again, understandably. Now since the resurrection could not of happened according too atheists,

Do you believe in Voodoo? No? What is the difference? Rotting bodies CANNOT come to live. Otherwise my butcher would run a pet shop. these same men concoted the most fantastic tail ever told, they lied about

Probably they didn’t. Once has to exist to do that, you know. the ressurection and each went out and spread this story to the end. Every one of these men except John was misttreated, tortured and murdered for a

Proof? lie that they would not reveal even after each in his turn was put to death.

Proof? On the first day they preach this lie, 5000 men believed this lie out of a

Proof? jewish culture that believed the Law of Moses was the only way to God. Today over 2,000,000,000 people believe in this lie.

Less. About 1 B. And going down fast. Now I agree that Islam and Buddism have maybe as many adherents, each of

Islam is fucking better than xtians, agreed, so that will be the No.1 superstition soon. Buddhism comes in at 4rd place, at best. You forgot Hinduism. these was started by men who followed Buddha and Mohammed and believed they

Buddha following Buddha???? were the way to God or enlightenment, but they believed they were giving the truth. Now the apostles knew they were spreading a lie. It seems quite

They didn’t even exist. strange to me the these apostles would be able to stand firm and die even when each of them knew that the gospel was a complete hoax.

Welcome to Jonestown! Care for some porridge, while waiting for the mother ship? But you are right, it has failed miserably!!!!!! What planet are you on????

Earth. Actually xtianity is failing rapidly. Only in rural USA and 3rd world countries xtianity is going strong. Elsewhere it is fading away. Jos Flachs in: Krungthep Mahanakhon Bovorn Rattanakorsin Mahinthara Ayutthaya Mahadilokpop Noparat Ratchathani Burirom Udom Ratchanivej Mahasathan Amornpiman Avatarnsathit Sakkathattiya A-visnukarmpasit also known as: Bangkok, Thailand

Response:

EXCELLENT point, Falcon. If He didn’t rise from the dead, WHERE’S THE BODY? Don’t you think the bad guys would have produced it and shut up the Christians FORVER if the Romans had stolen the body? And the Christians couldn’t have stolen the body with 12 heavily armed Roman guards keeping watch. When the Jews told the story, "the Christians bribed the guards", that was absurd. For a Roman soldier to accept a bribe was certain death, not only for the soldier who took the bribe, but for the entire team. If one guard fell asleep on his watch, all 12 were put to death. The skeptic POV is totally irrational and NOT based on fact. It is based on "I will not believe." Where’s the body? John W – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The whole world was not SUPPOSED to be converted. That notion indicates no knowledge of the Bible you are denying. The fact is you Christians claim he was hung on the cross. History says He was. How could you convince us now after two thousands years later that Jesus was God? We can’t. No one can convince one who will not be convinced. "For the believer, no proof is required; for the non-believer, no proof is sufficient. but you have ABSOLUTELY not one SHRED of PROOF! The empty tomb speaks loud and clear as does the many seeing our risen Lord. Ciao, Falcon

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cross "=" "Mission Ends In Failure" Jesus miserably failed to convince people of his time that he was God? The fact is you Christians claim he was hung on the cross. How could you convince us now after two thousands years later that Jesus was God? As an Atheist/Agnostic I find the Christian story infinately more believable than the tripe peddled by a certain well known peadophile, murderer and bandit. I mean God must have really let his standards slip to pick someone like that.. George W. is a paedophile?!?!?! What a strange thing to say, in connection with what was said. Oh well, I guess no stranger than hearing on a news channel he could shoot old yeller.

My comment was a little joke…comedy of misunderstanding and such.

Response:

As an Atheist/Agnostic I find the Christian story infinately more believable than the tripe peddled by a certain well known peadophile, murderer and bandit. I mean God must have really let his standards slip to pick someone like that..

You can tell the difference? They both sound like the same desert lunatic ravings to me… — Mark K. Bilbo #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion "In science, ‘fact’ can only mean ‘confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms. [Stephen Jay Gould]

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cross "=" "Mission Ends In Failure" Jesus miserably failed to convince people of his time that he was God? If that were true, there’d be no church today. Yet we know there were over 20 churches before the 1st c AD ended. And where did they come from? Jesus and the 12. The Bible says at Pentecost, over 3,000 Jews came to Christ. Paul and Peter both report LARGE numbers of converts at their various services/sermons. I’ve been to one of the churches Paul built in Turkey, in a town called Ephesus. It’s a large church, and probably holds up to 500 or 1,000 people. Jesus failed? I don’t think so. He died, yes, but He rose, too. Defeating death and giving us all eternal life. What a success! The whole world was not SUPPOSED to be converted. That notion indicates no knowledge of the Bible you are denying. The fact is you Christians claim he was hung on the cross. History says He was. How could you convince us now after two thousands years later that Jesus was God? We can’t. No one can convince one who will not be convinced. "For the believer, no proof is required; for the non-believer, no proof is sufficient. John W but you have ABSOLUTELY not one SHRED of PROOF! Of what? Did you not read that I’ve personally visited one of the 1st

century churches Paul built? In Ephesus, Turkey? Plus there is much internal evidence, like the prophesies, and the miracles, which continue to day. And you’ve proved MY point. I have given you proof. The 1st century church I visited. 1st century cornerstone and everything. What you don’t wish to believe you simply ignore. That’s not lack of proof. That’s proof bouncing off your granite noggin. "For the believer, no proof is required; for the non-believer, no proof is sufficient."

You aren’t asking questions that can be answered. You are making statements that indicate your mind is made up in absence of all the facts. John W

Response:

alt.atheism: duke32wrote God became man **to die** on the cross to reconcile us to God of the separation of man and God due to the actions of Adam and Eve. Until he died on the cross, all men were separated from God for all times. He did what he did to bring us back inside. If Jesus was never crusified, would God turn away from us all and send us to hell upon death?

Puke’s still never answered the question of whether, given the power, he’d go back in time and save Jesus. — Al – rukbat at optonline dot net Zymurgist # 2

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but you have ABSOLUTELY not one SHRED of PROOF!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The whole world was not SUPPOSED to be converted. That notion indicates no knowledge of the Bible you are denying. The fact is you Christians claim he was hung on the cross. History says He was. How could you convince us now after two thousands years later that Jesus was God? We can’t. No one can convince one who will not be convinced. "For the believer, no proof is required; for the non-believer, no proof is sufficient. but you have ABSOLUTELY not one SHRED of PROOF!

The empty tomb speaks loud and clear as does the many seeing our risen Lord. Ciao, Falcon — # BIBLE: Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth # # "Have You Read My #1 Best Seller? There Will Be A Test." – God #

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cross "=" "Mission Ends In Failure" Jesus miserably failed to convince people of his time that he was God? The fact is you Christians claim he was hung on the cross. How could you convince us now after two thousands years later that Jesus was God? As an Atheist/Agnostic I find the Christian story infinately more believable than the tripe peddled by a certain well known peadophile, murderer and bandit. I mean God must have really let his standards slip to pick someone like that..

Who would that be? And why is this in a Christian group? You’re wasting bandwidth! John W

Response:

Cross "=" "Mission Ends In Failure" Jesus miserably failed to convince people of his time that he was God?

If that were true, there’d be no church today. Yet we know there were over 20 churches before the 1st c AD ended. And where did they come from? Jesus and the 12. The Bible says at Pentecost, over 3,000 Jews came to Christ. Paul and Peter both report LARGE numbers of converts at their various services/sermons. I’ve been to one of the churches Paul built in Turkey, in a town called Ephesus. It’s a large church, and probably holds up to 500 or 1,000 people. Jesus failed? I don’t think so. He died, yes, but He rose, too. Defeating death and giving us all eternal life. What a success! The whole world was not SUPPOSED to be converted. That notion indicates no knowledge of the Bible you are denying. The fact is you Christians claim he was hung on the cross.

History says He was. How could you convince us now after two thousands years later that Jesus was God?

We can’t. No one can convince one who will not be convinced. "For the believer, no proof is required; for the non-believer, no proof is sufficient. John W

Response:

That wasn’t funny.. John W

Response:

God became man **to die** on the cross to reconcile us to God of the separation of man and God due to the actions of Adam and Eve. in other words we are being punished for someone else’s crimes. real smart and fair god ya got there. idiots.

Response:

2 billion people just proves that there is just ALLOT of stupid people.

Response:

duke32wrote God became man **to die** on the cross to reconcile us to God of the separation of man and God due to the actions of Adam and Eve. Until he died on the cross, all men were separated from God for all times. He did what he did to bring us back inside.

If Jesus was never crusified, would God turn away from us all and send us to hell upon death?

Response:

What a strange thing to say, in connection with what was said. Oh well, I guess no stranger than hearing on a news channel he could shoot old yeller. Vicki

Response:

Cross "=" "Mission Ends In Failure" Jesus miserably failed to convince people of his time that he was God? The fact is you Christians claim he was hung on the cross.

Yes, what is stranger is to belive that man is god. Vicki How could you convince us now after two thousands years later that Jesus

was God?

Response:

Cross "=" "Mission Ends In Failure" Jesus miserably failed to convince people of his time that he was God? The fact is you Christians claim he was hung on the cross. How could you convince us now after two thousands years later that Jesus was God?

I’m still waiting for a shred of evidence to suggest that such a person actually existed. The Gospels are clearly written in the style of fiction (even including at times the omniscient narrator observing events to which there were no witnesses). I wouldn’t be surprised if there were one (or, much more likely, several) wannabe messiahs running around the area around that time, but the fictional character Jesus very likely exists entirely apart from such a real-life model. Much like Robin Hood and King Arthur – each is based in some obscure way on probably a real person, but the stories and myths that were subsequently developed bear little or nothing in common with reality. Since this is crossposted to several religious groups (which I won’t trim, perhaps due to being in a fightin’ mood), we’ll no doubt hear two things: 1) No reasonable person denies that Jesus existed. Only a fool would suggest he didn’t. 2) There’s plenty of evidence, such as [A], [B], [etc.] To the first claim, bollocks. To the second, I’m open to evidence, but if a central part of your claim is alleged (a polite way of saying forged) writings of Josephus, don’t bother. — - Mike Remove ’spambegone.net’ and reverse to send e-mail.

Response:

Yes, it is true, Jesus failed miserably. I mean here a man who spent the first 30 years of his life as a carpenter, living under Roman tyranny and Jewish culture & law. During the last 3 years of his life he begins to preach & teach. He gathers around 12 men from many walks of life, fisherman, tax collector, zealot, etc. He teaches them and those that would listen that he is God in the flesh, that he has a kingdom, that he can forgive sin, that he is greater then all the prophets that have gone before. He tells them that he is the I AM of the old testament, he performs miracles, he says that he will be killed and on the third day rise again. So what happens, he is handed over to the jewish and romen leaders, he is mocked, whipped, sit upon and then finally crucified and the 12 disciples run and hide for fear. There king is Gone, they weep, they mourn, they dont believe what he told them. Now since the resurrection could not of happened according too atheists, these same men concoted the most fantastic tail ever told, they lied about the ressurection and each went out and spread this story to the end. Every one of these men except John was misttreated, tortured and murdered for a lie that they would not reveal even after each in his turn was put to death. On the first day they preach this lie, 5000 men believed this lie out of a jewish culture that believed the Law of Moses was the only way to God. Today over 2,000,000,000 people believe in this lie. Now I agree that Islam and Buddism have maybe as many adherents, each of these was started by men who followed Buddha and Mohammed and believed they were the way to God or enlightenment, but they believed they were giving the truth. Now the apostles knew they were spreading a lie. It seems quite strange to me the these apostles would be able to stand firm and die even when each of them knew that the gospel was a complete hoax. Many would gladly die for holding fast what they believe is the truth, but who would die for what they know to be a lie. As one of the pharisee’s said in adressing his fellow jewish leaders"watch out, if this new teaching is of man it will fail, but if is of God it will not fail and you will find yourself fighting against God’ But you are right, it has failed miserably!!!!!! What planet are you on????

Response:

In other words, you insist in judging Jesus by Muslim standards of success or failure; so for you, Jesus wouldn’t be a "success" unless he had nine wives simultaneously (while allowing his followers to only have a maximum of four wives simultaneously), and unless he conquered his enemies in bloody battles, and had his enemies assassinated, and conducted ethnic cleansing operations — just like Muhammad did. I wonder why I’m less than impressed?? — Some Qur’an quotes: 5:20 qaala muusaa 5:21 "yaa qawmi

Buddhism Hinduism

0 RESPONSES

A matter of belief

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m curious. Please describe your efforts to date of seeking God. Do you know what the Bible teaches about personally experiencing God? Since our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) one must be afflicted with advanced cynicism and paranoia to avoid all love, for loving, some atheists maintain, is exchanging freedom for chains. And so it is, but most people would rather die than live without the "chains" of love. As usual, Frank is still throwing around his "god is love" bull shit as though "love is god". He’s been called on this deranged logic before, and constantly lies – denying he ever does it! Talk about a "minion of Satan"!!!!

That only appears like that to private Popes, like yourself. LOL — Pastor Frank Jn:8:44: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Mt:6:21: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Mt:12:34: O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. Mt:12:35: A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Response:

I’m curious. Please describe your efforts to date of seeking God. Do you know what the Bible teaches about personally experiencing God? In Christ, Jim Browning Personal Testimony http://www.ghg.net/phf/philosophy_freelover/personal_testimony.htm

Like you, I was brought up in a Southern Baptist church. I became as disillusioned as you discribe yourself to be now, according to your testimony. I, too, had a serious health problem when I was younger. Why did God, if there is a God, make me go through all that? But what I was taught growing up isn’t authentic Christianity. I now know that most Southern Baptists endorse a false gospel, which God called me to attack. I can’t remember any talk about being born-again as a real life changing personal experience. If the term was ever used at all, new converts were simply assumed to be born-again at their conversion. But a professing believer without the indwelling Holy Spirit is still lost (Romans 8:9). And the Holy Spirit is the agent of all our experiences of God. Therefore, most Southern Baptists have "only the form of godliness but denying its power" (II Timothy 3:5). In Christ, Jim Browning – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This post includes a link to a recent article covering a lot of the topics typically addressed in disbelief (and belief) newsgroups. The writer appears to be of the disbelief in disbelief camp (actually, towards the end of the article the writer states he believes in an 80 percent malevolent god, while at the same time claiming there’s no place for the- ism – see the quote at the end of this post), asserting that it’s up to the atheist to prove there is no god, and acting as if belief in god (whatever that is) has virtue merely because most pay lip service to it (or so it seems). Put another way, since he cannot get a handle on the con- septets entailed in denial of the ancient god postulations, and would prefer to dwell on the illogical position that it’s more worthy to believe in something even if it’s all-but cer- tain that the something believed in is myth (like Zeus, for example), the writer feels justified in his belief in the myth factory called god(s), definition as flexible (and disingen- uous/pretentious as possible) to try to deal with refutation/ dismissal/doubt/disbelief. Point in fact, as mentioned many times, every atheist in the world is open to acknowledging the existence of a god that actually manifests itself in a validatable form, apart from empty claims – emptied of personal delusions – far removed from fits of fancy and emotion, but since such a god has yet to show itself, in all-but certain likeli- hood due to the fact that it exists solely between the ears of humans as an immortal fairy tale, well then, the burden shifts to the chameleon crowd who compose literally thousands of irreconcilable definitions for a god that log- ically cannot exist, and is, therefore, easily refutable. The flaw that’s as plain as the nose on most faces is that the emptiness of the god claims resides in the insistence of the claimants on denying that open-minded pursuit of verity is the most estimable and worthy way to deal with the unknowns that "believers" (degree of belief highly variable, usually topped out in group sociological experi- ences called worship, and at their lowest ebb the night before said worship) call god. Those beliefs are undeni- ably founded in ancient myths, loaded with anti-humanism / superstition / assaults on logic and reason / irreconcilable contradictions / calls to submit as a servant to a master called blind trust in "make believe". — December 23, 2002 http://www.msnbc.com/news/851096.asp http://slate.msn.com/id/2075653/ — Excerpt: "… For everyone else, there would appear to be three theological options. 1) You can believe, as I do, that the universe is presided over by a being that is 100 per- cent malevolent but only 80 percent effective (which ex- plains pretty much everything). 2) You can agree with log- ical positivists, who claimed that "God exists" is cogni- tively meaningless and hence neither true nor false. Or 3) you can become a Unitarian. …" – - – ~~~ Pro-Humanist FREELOVER (Freethinking Realist Exploring Expressive Liberty, Openness, Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality) http://www.ghg.net/phf ~~~

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m curious. Please describe your efforts to date of seeking God. Do you know what the Bible teaches about personally experiencing God? Same things most religions teach about their gods. Tell me, what are your efforts seeking those gods? I was raised a faithful Christian. But I was always very curious about other beliefs. I studied philosophy in college during the so-called ‘death of God’ and existentialist period. I investigated other religions, including buddhism and hinduism. I was outside the church for 23 years. Then I experienced God in a powerful way when my life was changed. This demonstrated in my own life God’s promise, "You will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart" (Jeremiah 29:13).

You studied their religions, even I did that. However that is not seeking their god. Or do you think that scholars studying Catholicism are seeking god? — Alan "the Full Monty" Ferrit ()’.’.’() ( (T) ) ( ) . ( ) (")_(") eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211 Denizen of Darkness #42 EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.

Response:

I’m curious. Please describe your efforts to date of seeking God. Do you know what the Bible teaches about personally experiencing God? Same things most religions teach about their gods. Tell me, what are your efforts seeking those gods?

I was raised a faithful Christian. But I was always very curious about other beliefs. I studied philosophy in college during the so-called ‘death of God’ and existentialist period. I investigated other religions, including buddhism and hinduism. I was outside the church for 23 years. Then I experienced God in a powerful way when my life was changed. This demonstrated in my own life God’s promise, "You will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart" (Jeremiah 29:13). In Christ, Jim Browning – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Alan "the Full Monty" Ferrit ()’.’.’() ( (T) ) ( ) . ( ) (")_(") eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211 Denizen of Darkness #42 EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.

Response:

I’m curious. Please describe your efforts to date of seeking God. Do you know what the Bible teaches about personally experiencing God? In Christ, Jim Browning

Personal Testimony http://www.ghg.net/phf/philosophy_freelover/personal_testimony.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This post includes a link to a recent article covering a lot of the topics typically addressed in disbelief (and belief) newsgroups. The writer appears to be of the disbelief in disbelief camp (actually, towards the end of the article the writer states he believes in an 80 percent malevolent god, while at the same time claiming there’s no place for the- ism – see the quote at the end of this post), asserting that it’s up to the atheist to prove there is no god, and acting as if belief in god (whatever that is) has virtue merely because most pay lip service to it (or so it seems). Put another way, since he cannot get a handle on the con- septets entailed in denial of the ancient god postulations, and would prefer to dwell on the illogical position that it’s more worthy to believe in something even if it’s all-but cer- tain that the something believed in is myth (like Zeus, for example), the writer feels justified in his belief in the myth factory called god(s), definition as flexible (and disingen- uous/pretentious as possible) to try to deal with refutation/ dismissal/doubt/disbelief. Point in fact, as mentioned many times, every atheist in the world is open to acknowledging the existence of a god that actually manifests itself in a validatable form, apart from empty claims – emptied of personal delusions – far removed from fits of fancy and emotion, but since such a god has yet to show itself, in all-but certain likeli- hood due to the fact that it exists solely between the ears of humans as an immortal fairy tale, well then, the burden shifts to the chameleon crowd who compose literally thousands of irreconcilable definitions for a god that log- ically cannot exist, and is, therefore, easily refutable. The flaw that’s as plain as the nose on most faces is that the emptiness of the god claims resides in the insistence of the claimants on denying that open-minded pursuit of verity is the most estimable and worthy way to deal with the unknowns that "believers" (degree of belief highly variable, usually topped out in group sociological experi- ences called worship, and at their lowest ebb the night before said worship) call god. Those beliefs are undeni- ably founded in ancient myths, loaded with anti-humanism / superstition / assaults on logic and reason / irreconcilable contradictions / calls to submit as a servant to a master called blind trust in "make believe". — December 23, 2002 http://www.msnbc.com/news/851096.asp http://slate.msn.com/id/2075653/ — Excerpt: "… For everyone else, there would appear to be three theological options. 1) You can believe, as I do, that the universe is presided over by a being that is 100 per- cent malevolent but only 80 percent effective (which ex- plains pretty much everything). 2) You can agree with log- ical positivists, who claimed that "God exists" is cogni- tively meaningless and hence neither true nor false. Or 3) you can become a Unitarian. …" – - –

~~~ Pro-Humanist FREELOVER (Freethinking Realist Exploring Expressive Liberty, Openness, Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality) http://www.ghg.net/phf ~~~

Response:

I’m curious. Please describe your efforts to date of seeking God. Do you know what the Bible teaches about personally experiencing God? Since our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) one must be afflicted with advanced cynicism and paranoia to avoid all love, for loving, some atheists maintain, is exchanging freedom for chains. And so it is, but most people would rather die than live without the "chains" of love. — Pastor Frank

As usual, Frank is still throwing around his "god is love" bull shit as though "love is god". He’s been called on this deranged logic before, and constantly lies – denying he ever does it! Talk about a "minion of Satan"!!!!

Response:

I’m curious. Please describe your efforts to date of seeking God. Do you know what the Bible teaches about personally experiencing God?

Since our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) one must be afflicted with advanced cynicism and paranoia to avoid all love, for loving, some atheists maintain, is exchanging freedom for chains. And so it is, but most people would rather die than live without the "chains" of love. — Pastor Frank GOD Jesus in Jn:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Response:

I’m curious. Please describe your efforts to date of seeking God. Do you know what the Bible teaches about personally experiencing God? In Christ, Jim Browning

?? Seriously, why would someone seek something that has absolutely no evidence for its existence? Just because my neighbor’s child believes in Peter Pan, should I seek a personal experience to Pan?

Response:

I’m curious. Please describe your efforts to date of seeking God. Do you know what the Bible teaches about personally experiencing God? ?? Seriously, why would someone seek something that has absolutely no evidence for its existence? Just because my neighbor’s child believes in Peter Pan, should I seek a personal experience to Pan?

You lack a definition for the word "God". Read the below to get the Christian definition, and most people would rather die, than live without our God. "Peter Pan" indeed!!!!!! — Pastor Frank GOD Jesus in Jn:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Response:

I’m curious. Please describe your efforts to date of seeking God. Do you know what the Bible teaches about personally experiencing God?

Same things most religions teach about their gods. Tell me, what are your efforts seeking those gods? — Alan "the Full Monty" Ferrit ()’.’.’() ( (T) ) ( ) . ( ) (")_(") eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211 Denizen of Darkness #42 EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.

Response:

I’m curious. Please describe your efforts to date of seeking God. Do you know what the Bible teaches about personally experiencing God? In Christ, Jim Browning

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This post includes a link to a recent article covering a lot of the topics typically addressed in disbelief (and belief) newsgroups. The writer appears to be of the disbelief in disbelief camp (actually, towards the end of the article the writer states he believes in an 80 percent malevolent god, while at the same time claiming there’s no place for the- ism – see the quote at the end of this post), asserting that it’s up to the atheist to prove there is no god, and acting as if belief in god (whatever that is) has virtue merely because most pay lip service to it (or so it seems). Put another way, since he cannot get a handle on the con- septets entailed in denial of the ancient god postulations, and would prefer to dwell on the illogical position that it’s more worthy to believe in something even if it’s all-but cer- tain that the something believed in is myth (like Zeus, for example), the writer feels justified in his belief in the myth factory called god(s), definition as flexible (and disingen- uous/pretentious as possible) to try to deal with refutation/ dismissal/doubt/disbelief. Point in fact, as mentioned many times, every atheist in the world is open to acknowledging the existence of a god that actually manifests itself in a validatable form, apart from empty claims – emptied of personal delusions – far removed from fits of fancy and emotion, but since such a god has yet to show itself, in all-but certain likeli- hood due to the fact that it exists solely between the ears of humans as an immortal fairy tale, well then, the burden shifts to the chameleon crowd who compose literally thousands of irreconcilable definitions for a god that log- ically cannot exist, and is, therefore, easily refutable. The flaw that’s as plain as the nose on most faces is that the emptiness of the god claims resides in the insistence of the claimants on denying that open-minded pursuit of verity is the most estimable and worthy way to deal with the unknowns that "believers" (degree of belief highly variable, usually topped out in group sociological experi- ences called worship, and at their lowest ebb the night before said worship) call god. Those beliefs are undeni- ably founded in ancient myths, loaded with anti-humanism / superstition / assaults on logic and reason / irreconcilable contradictions / calls to submit as a servant to a master called blind trust in "make believe". — December 23, 2002 http://www.msnbc.com/news/851096.asp http://slate.msn.com/id/2075653/ — Excerpt: "… For everyone else, there would appear to be three theological options. 1) You can believe, as I do, that the universe is presided over by a being that is 100 per- cent malevolent but only 80 percent effective (which ex- plains pretty much everything). 2) You can agree with log- ical positivists, who claimed that "God exists" is cogni- tively meaningless and hence neither true nor false. Or 3) you can become a Unitarian. …" – - – ~~~ Pro-Humanist FREELOVER (Freethinking Realist Exploring Expressive Liberty, Openness, Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality) http://www.ghg.net/phf ~~~

Response:

This post includes a link to a recent article covering a lot of the topics typically addressed in disbelief (and belief) newsgroups. The writer appears to be of the disbelief in disbelief camp (actually, towards the end of the article the writer states he believes in an 80 percent malevolent god, while at the same time claiming there’s no place for the- ism – see the quote at the end of this post), asserting that it’s up to the atheist to prove there is no god, and acting as if belief in god (whatever that is) has virtue merely because most pay lip service to it (or so it seems). Put another way, since he cannot get a handle on the con- septets entailed in denial of the ancient god postulations, and would prefer to dwell on the illogical position that it’s more worthy to believe in something even if it’s all-but cer- tain that the something believed in is myth (like Zeus, for example), the writer feels justified in his belief in the myth factory called god(s), definition as flexible (and disingen- uous/pretentious as possible) to try to deal with refutation/ dismissal/doubt/disbelief. Point in fact, as mentioned many times, every atheist in the world is open to acknowledging the existence of a god that actually manifests itself in a validatable form, apart from empty claims – emptied of personal delusions – far removed from fits of fancy and emotion, but since such a god has yet to show itself, in all-but certain likeli- hood due to the fact that it exists solely between the ears of humans as an immortal fairy tale, well then, the burden shifts to the chameleon crowd who compose literally thousands of irreconcilable definitions for a god that log- ically cannot exist, and is, therefore, easily refutable. The flaw that’s as plain as the nose on most faces is that the emptiness of the god claims resides in the insistence of the claimants on denying that open-minded pursuit of verity is the most estimable and worthy way to deal with the unknowns that "believers" (degree of belief highly variable, usually topped out in group sociological experi- ences called worship, and at their lowest ebb the night before said worship) call god. Those beliefs are undeni- ably founded in ancient myths, loaded with anti-humanism / superstition / assaults on logic and reason / irreconcilable contradictions / calls to submit as a servant to a master called blind trust in "make believe". — December 23, 2002 http://www.msnbc.com/news/851096.asp http://slate.msn.com/id/2075653/ — Excerpt: "… For everyone else, there would appear to be three theological options. 1) You can believe, as I do, that the universe is presided over by a being that is 100 per- cent malevolent but only 80 percent effective (which ex- plains pretty much everything). 2) You can agree with log- ical positivists, who claimed that "God exists" is cogni- tively meaningless and hence neither true nor false. Or 3) you can become a Unitarian. …" – - – ~~~ Pro-Humanist FREELOVER (Freethinking Realist Exploring Expressive Liberty, Openness, Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality) http://www.ghg.net/phf ~~~

Response:

Buddhism Hinduism

0 RESPONSES

Friendly Fire ???

Question:

you wrote. …and I should care because…? because…. Isa 13:9 9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. (KJV)

You tell ‘em Dore 3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. She that doeth good is of God: but she that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Response:

leaving the path of scripture for a short while, buddhism, hinduism (seven chakras, seven seals, seven lamps) know much about the subtle bodylayers (‘dimensions’) where all or many causes for ill- ness (‘jinns’ or sins) are attached, eating away at you, feeding on you, causing harm. this page gives a nice way to start ‘taking out the trash’, it is allways worth a try "* Rearranging any of the grids and matricies in the body that need it – espcially the hips." nb: the hips control the energetic anti-virus routines and defense mechanisms against ‘predators’, dark spirits and dark ‘evil’ anti life beings, jinns ("sins"), energetic markers in the human lightbody/energybody. they were disabled systematically they work sub or rather unconsciously, automatically, it would be a shame not to activate them in the times of tribulation, they’re part of the ‘armour of God’ http://members.yournet.com/jobrien/heal.htm (grin) on of the better sites on the net, ignore the babalon, go for the good stuff HEALING TECHNIQUES Note: The GENERAL PURPOSE HEALING TECHNIQUE and the GALAXY BEING HEALING PACKAGEat the end of this file make available for use all the other techniques listed plus possibly several others which our conscious mind is not aware of. They are the simplest to follow and produce possibly the best results. Therefore it is suggested that these be implemented first, and only if they do not seem to produce noticeable results within a reasonable time period should others be tried. The Void Cleansing is a cleansing and healing technique that is being administered by the Holy Spirit to all of humanity on a periodic basis as needed. GETTING ANSWERS Our Higher Self (the Soul) knows all the answers. It knows the cause of the malady and is using the malady, sometimes latching on to one that "is going around", to attract our attention to a spiritual or emotional problem which is the underlying cause. Our conscious mind is too busy to listen, but the subconscious mind isn’t. So we need to use a method of communication to get answers from it. This is where Dowsing comes into the picture. Dowsing is associated with finding an underground water source. The typical dowser cuts a green forked branch from a live tree, holds one of the forked end in each hand, bends the forks outward and swings the other end up in the air. When he walks over a water source, the branch swings downward. The reason the fork reacts to water is because it contains water. A dowser can tie a silver coin on the end of the dowser and dowse for silver. He can even imagine there is a silver coin tied to the end, it the dowser works almost as well. Our imagination is marvelously creative and powerful. This takes a lot of practice, and some don’t have that much of the right type of energy to get good results using this method. So we use a pendulum to start with. A small weight dangling on the end of a six-inch free length string does just fine. A silver object, a ring or coin seems to work best. Dangle the pendulum from a finger and thumb of your dominant hand and "will" the pendulum to move forward and backwards. Give a little nudge to start with and when you notice the pendulum continuing to swing or even gain momentum, stop it and try again without any nudge. Tell the string (your subconscious mind) that this is a "yes" answer. When you are sure the pendulum starts up and continues to swing on its own, stop it and "will" it to start swinging left and right, with a little nudge to start with. When you are sure the pendulum can start up and swing left and right, tell the string this is a "no" answer. Do the same to cause the string to swing diagonally. When you are satisfied it is moving on its own, define this motion as indicating "This is not a yes-no question, stupid!" or "ready for the next question". Then start asking it questions you know the answers to. When you are satisfied you are getting the right answers, have a friend to think up yes-no questions they know the answers to, and see if you can get the right answer without being told ahead of time. Now we are ready for the next step. The dowsing method can be used for getting answers to other "yes" "no" questions. The answers may come from your Higher Self, spirit guides, angels, even God Himself if you are not paying attention to His giving you "gut feelings" to follow. But there are also negative entities who just love to confuse and misdirect. So first you should declare that only "those in the light" may communicate through your dowser. This is your inner world, and you have ultimate say on whom you allow to communicate with you. Using your dowsing method can determine which and how much of a given food is good for you, find a dietary deficiency, determine if you have a malady you are not aware of and where it is, by laying a hand on different parts of the body while holding the pendulum in the other. Then use a finger to narrow down the exact location of the problem. You can also determine how much sleep you need, do your plants need watering or fertilizer. You can also use your string pendulum to locate a missing object. First use the "yes-no’ answer to determine the room in which it is located. Then use the directrion of swing as one direction line, move to another location to determine another direction line. Where these imaginary lines cross is where the object is located. You can also dowse over a map to locate a missing person by dividing the map into four quadrants, then dowse over each quadrant until you receive a "Yes". Then divide this quadrant into four smaller quadrants and repeat the process. Finally use the swing direction line of the pendulum in in two positions, and where these two lines cross is where the missing person is. The list is endless. In using the dowsing method, it is always good to ask "Can I, May I, and Should I" before proceeding. For instance, maybe the missing person does not want to be found. It takes practice to not influence the dowser with our preconceived answers. THE INVISIBLE PENDULUM Dangling a pendulum over a group of watermellons to find a properly ripe one can draw a crowd. (A friend of mine dowsed for the ripest mellon and found his selection to be over-ripe. Right answer, wrong question.) So I have "trained" my fists to act as answering devices. An unconscious squeeze of my right fist = "yes". A left fist squeeze = "no". No squeeze or both fists squeezing at once indicates you need to ask a simpler question. You can get answers with your hands in your pockets or hanging at your sides, and nobody will suspect a thing. A local doctor into holistic medicine uses a variation of this to get answers while examining a patient. Also see if you can "feel" the right answer and then confirm it with your dowser. Connecting one’s Higher Self with our conscious mind is a great asset. Sometimes the right question will pop up in my mind, helping aim me in the right direction for the information I am actually seeking. Depending solely on the dowser blocks the development of this connection. FINDING THE CAUSE In my world, there are no coincidences. Even accidents are caused by our negative thoughts or fears. What we fear, we attract. However, negative thoughts directed at us from others (jealousy, hate, etc.) can also have a negative influence if we permit it. Give your Deity or spiritual guides permission to constantly shield you from these and direct them elsewhere. And be sure our information source is "in the light", since dark thought forms can give us wrong answers. We DO create our own world. We have such creative power that we can create a world in which we seem to have virtually NO influence over events and circumstances in our life if we believe it is true. . And by believing, so it becomes. Trying to heal an illness without getting at the psychological root cause is an exercise in futility. You probably won’t be able to cure it, but if you do, another will take its place. You may have a friend who is always coming down with whatever illness is "going around", or has had several operations to remove malfunctioning organs. He/she is trying to treat symptoms, not the emotional cause and the root cause is almost always fear. Always start a healing session by asking "can I (do I have the ability), may I (do I have permission), and should I (is this the right time). You can combine all these into one composite question for a quick answer. If the answer is "no", then ask the three questions separately. Healing is usually blocked because the root cause has not been eliminated. This is usually an emotional blockage. Then ask if the patient (you?) is ready to face the cause and neutralize its effects in on your health? If not, ask for Divine help in changing your attitude toward the cause. The fact that the illness has surfaced is an indication that on a higher level, you are ready to resolve the issues involved. Use your dowser to indicate what area to look into for answers. Is it low self-esteem, a traumatic experience unresolved? There are many possible causes. If answers are not readily surfaced, try this: DREAMING THE CAUSE The most effective way to get at the cause is to program yourself to have a vivid dream in which the answer is revealed, and then to wake up immediately after the dream so you can remember it. Don’t wait until morning to write down the details. Do it immediately or the details will fade away. Then go over your notes the next morning for clues. Use your dowser to pinpoint the answers. These dreams normally occur during the early morning hours. Remind yourself to examine the dream you just had upon waking in the wee hours of the morning. Then you need to face these issues and remove the emotions tied to them. I have found that hugging the … read more »

Response:

you wrote. …and I should care because…?

because…. Isa 13:9 9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. (KJV) Matt 13:41-42 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (KJV) — Dore http://spirit_of_prophecy.tripod.com/ Rev 21:7 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (KJV) "John? "

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you wrote. Dore…a pacifist???? Hahahahaha…yeah right. I don’t use, own or believe in man’s weapons of violence, or support, defend or appreciate their own concepts, ideology or purpose for using them, BUT God’s weapons of the Spirit, and purpose are JUST and it is in those that provide MY power. — Dore …and I should care because…?

Response:

I’m guided by the beauty of our weapons First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin (uhmm, fuck you too )

Response:

you wrote. I’m guided by the beauty of our weapons First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin

Matt 26:52 52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (KJV) — Dore http://spirit_of_prophecy.tripod.com/ Rev 21:7 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (KJV) "Chap from the Ministry, concerned about American Human Rights Abuses, Music, Poetry, Pottery and Escatology not neccessarily in that order"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m guided by the beauty of our weapons First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin (uhmm, fuck you too )

Response:

you wrote. I’m guided by the beauty of our weapons First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin Matt 26:52 52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (KJV) — Dore

Ezekiel 24:27 In that day shall thy mouth be opened to him which is escaped, and thou shalt speak, and be no more dumb: and thou shalt be a sign unto them; and they shall know that I am the Lord. Genesis 4:9 And the Lord said unto Cain, where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper? <grin bonjour les ameriCAINs; any u/nique r/easons to kill iraqi ? Rev. 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. <grin freedom of religion : you’re free to believe Mickey Mouse is God, it doesn’t get you to heaven, that’s all.

Response:

you wrote. Dore…a pacifist???? Hahahahaha…yeah right.

I don’t use, own or believe in man’s weapons of violence, or support, defend or appreciate their own concepts, ideology or purpose for using them, BUT God’s weapons of the Spirit, and purpose are JUST and it is in those that provide MY power. — Dore http://spirit_of_prophecy.tripod.com/ Rev 21:7 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (KJV) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you wrote. I’m guided by the beauty of our weapons First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin Matt 26:52 52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (KJV) Dore…a pacifist???? Hahahahaha…yeah right. — Dore http://spirit_of_prophecy.tripod.com/ Rev 21:7 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (KJV) "Chap from the Ministry, concerned about American Human Rights Abuses, Music, Poetry, Pottery and Escatology not neccessarily in that order" I’m guided by the beauty of our weapons First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin (uhmm, fuck you too )

Response:

Dore…a pacifist???? Hahahahaha…yeah right. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Dore http://spirit_of_prophecy.tripod.com/ Rev 21:7 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (KJV) "Chap from the Ministry, concerned about American Human Rights Abuses, Music, Poetry, Pottery and Escatology not neccessarily in that order" I’m guided by the beauty of our weapons First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin (uhmm, fuck you too )

Response:

"Thy sword into his place…" Wow! Dore! You know how to turn a guy on! Yeah..baby! (We had a good time…. wink) Warlord Steve BAAWA www.sonic.net/~wooly

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Buddhism Hinduism

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Islamic threat emerges in Southeast Asia

Question:

so whaddaya think chivey – should we just take out every muslim? maybe we should just get everyone with a koran – just to be safe. and secular arabs too – why the hell not – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Posted on Wed, Sep. 11, 2002 New terrorist threat emerges in Southeast Asia By MICHAEL DORGAN Knight Ridder Newspapers JAKARTA, Indonesia – While American troops press the hunt for Osama bin Laden and his chief lieutenants in Pakistan and Afghanistan, a new terrorist threat to the United States and its allies is spreading across Southeast Asia. The U.S. embassies in Indonesia and Malaysia closed indefinitely this week after a suspected terrorist began telling intelligence officials that a regional Islamic terrorist group planned to mark the anniversary of the Sept. 11 bombings by attacking the American Embassy in Jakarta and other Western targets in the region. The plot the man described is only the latest evidence that Southeast Asia – with a large Muslim population; religious tensions; grinding poverty; corrupt, inefficient or authoritarian regimes and a legacy of Western colonialism – has become fertile ground for bin Laden’s brand of Islamic extremism. From Malaysia through Singapore and across Indonesia to the southern Philippines, Islamic militants who once concentrated on local causes have formed regional terrorist networks with help from al-Qaida, bin Laden’s terrorist network. Over the past two years, they have planted bombs in churches and train stations that have killed dozens and wounded hundreds in Indonesia and the Philippines. In Malaysia, they helped plan last year’s Sept. 11 attacks on the United States. In Singapore late last year, they schemed to set off seven huge truck bombs simultaneously, each bigger than the bomb that blew up the Oklahoma City federal building, mostly directed at American targets, including the embassy. Al-Qaida instigated that plan because "it wanted to show it could still throw a punch," said the U.S. ambassador to Singapore Franklin Lavin. But the thwarted plot was to have been carried out by secret local cells of a regional terrorist network called Jemaah Islamiyah, according to Singaporean authorities. U.S. intelligence officials who spoke on condition of anonymity said the group was suspected of planning anniversary attacks this week in Jakarta and elsewhere. They said the Bush administration was considering whether it had enough evidence to add the group and its leader to the State Department’s list of terrorist organizations. In an interview last month with Knight Ridder at a religious school he runs in Solo, Indonesia, on the island of Java, the alleged leader, Abu Bakar Baasyir, denied with a wide smile that he’s the head of Jemaah Islamiya. The soft-spoken 63-year-old cleric said the terrorist network, which authorities in several countries blame for a series of attacks, didn’t exist. The allegations that he oversees an Islamic terrorist network are "part of a global strategy of the United States against Islam." But his dark eyes shone as he praised bin Laden for "trying to protect Islam." They shone again when he took obvious delight in the Sept. 11 attacks that killed almost 3,000 people in the United States. "We believe this to be the curse of God to punish the arrogance of America," he said. "Not only did Osama bin Laden feel happy about the attacks. I also was happy, and I believe many Muslims in Indonesia were happy in seeing the attacks. But that does not mean that they were responsible for the attacks." "Zionist Jews" were responsible, Baasyir said, a "small but dominant community in America." A photograph of bin Laden hangs on the wall of the clinic at the school, which is building a big addition to accommodate more students from the island of Java and beyond. A placard on the administration building declares: "Jihad is our way. Death in the way of Allah is our greatest aspiration." Jemaah Islamiyah "is operating as the branch office in Southeast Asia for al-Qaida," said a Western diplomat in Jakarta. The diplomat, speaking on condition of anonymity, described the group as "shadowy" and "decentralized," a web of numerous small, secret cells spread across several countries. Members of Jemaah Islamiyah, like other Southeast Asian militants, hope to create an Islamic superstate that would unify the region’s 230 million Muslims by fusing what are now Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei and the predominantly Muslim southern portions of Thailand and the Philippines. Baasyir and other militant clerics want to make Islam in Indonesia more "pure." Indonesia is the world’s most populous Muslim country, and most of the Muslims who live there are abangans, the name for Muslims who have blended Islam with Hinduism, Buddhism and other beliefs. The overwhelming majority are politically moderate. Still, many see the U.S.-led war on terrorism as an assault on Islam. "Militant Islam feeds upon the insecurities and alienation that globalization generates among the less successful," Singapore Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew told a gathering of international security experts in May. "And because globalization is largely U.S.-led and driven, militant Islam identifies America and Americans as the threat to Islam." Lee linked the regional threat directly to bin Laden, who he said, "successfully twined together a broad range of local groups, each with its own history of struggle for its own objectives, into a common universal jihad against the enemies of Islam." Among the groups Lee cited as having been co-opted by al-Qaida are the Moro Islamic Liberation Front and the Abu Sayyaf, both based in the largely Muslim southern Philippines, the Kumpulan Mujahideen Malaysia and Jemaah Islamiyah. Muslim militants remain a tiny minority in each of the Southeast Asian countries where they operate. But experts warn that despite their small numbers, they pose a significant threat to the region and a formidable challenge to the U.S.-led war on terrorism. Jemaah Islamiyah’s size isn’t known. But it’s believed to have at least several hundred members in Singapore and Malaysia, and probably a larger number in Indonesia. "It’s not just numbers, but dedication and ability," said Col. Rodolfo Mendoza, the former head of intelligence for the Philippine National Police, who oversaw investigations that linked individuals in the Philippines to the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. "Over the long term, the trend is worrisome," agreed a Southeast Asian official in a different country, speaking on condition that he not be identified. "It’s not just a numbers game – it does not take many to make bombs." Fathur Rohman al Ghozi, an Indonesian bomb maker and suspected key figure in the Singapore plot, told Philippine police after he was arrested in Manila in January that Jemaah Islamiyah was created to follow the example that Islam’s founder set 1,500 years ago, according to transcripts of his interrogation obtained by Knight Ridder. "The principle of our organization is the establishment of an independent Islamic state like Prophet Mohammed did," said al Ghozi, who confessed to planning the December 2000 bombings of commuter trains in Manila that killed 22 people and injured nearly 100. Baasyir acknowledged in the interview that some of his former students, including al Ghozi, have been implicated in terrorist attacks. But he said he could not be held responsible for what his students did after they graduated. "Yes, I was teaching Islam in Malaysia and Singapore, but I never taught them to make bombs or to behave in a violent way," said Baasyir, who had fled to Malaysia in the mid-1980s when the former Suharto regime in Indonesia cracked down on Islamic militants. But among those linked to Baasyir and Jemaah Islamiyah is Indonesian cleric Riduan Isamuddin, who authorities in several countries charge is al-Qaida’s main contact in Indonesia. A fugitive, Isamuddin is wanted by authorities in at least four countries. On an organizational chart of Jemaah Islamiyah that Singaporean authorities compiled, Isamuddin appears directly below Baasyir as part of a three-member regional council. Baasyir and Isamuddin "have been in regular contact since Sept. 11," said the Western diplomat in Jakarta. Indonesian police seek Isamuddin, also known as Hambali, for allegedly masterminding a series of attacks in which 36 bombs went off at Christian churches and schools throughout Indonesia on Christmas Eve 2000, killing 20 people and injuring more than 100. He is wanted in the Philippines for alleged involvement in the Manila train bombings that took place five days later. Malaysian authorities also are looking for Isamuddin, who has been linked to a bank robbery last year in that country by Islamic militants who authorities say wanted money to buy guns for Islamic militants who are fighting Christians in Indonesia’s Molucca Islands. The Malaysians also want to ask Isamuddin about his ties to Yazid Sufaat, a former Malaysian military captain whose condominium south of Kuala Lumpur, the capital, was used in January 2000 to plan the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States. Among those who attended that meeting were the two hijackers who ended up in the cockpit of the plane that hit the Pentagon. Sufaat, who’s in detention, also is accused of purchasing 4 tons of ammonium nitrate that was to be used along with 17 additional tons in the thwarted Singapore truck bombings, which Singaporean authorities say Isamuddin also

Response:

Posted on Wed, Sep. 11, 2002 New terrorist threat emerges in Southeast Asia By MICHAEL DORGAN Knight Ridder Newspapers JAKARTA, Indonesia – While American troops press the hunt for Osama bin Laden and his chief lieutenants in Pakistan and Afghanistan, a new terrorist threat to the United States and its allies is spreading across Southeast Asia. The U.S. embassies in Indonesia and Malaysia closed indefinitely this week after a suspected terrorist began telling intelligence officials that a regional Islamic terrorist group planned to mark the anniversary of the Sept. 11 bombings by attacking the American Embassy in Jakarta and other Western targets in the region. The plot the man described is only the latest evidence that Southeast Asia – with a large Muslim population; religious tensions; grinding poverty; corrupt, inefficient or authoritarian regimes and a legacy of Western colonialism – has become fertile ground for bin Laden’s brand of Islamic extremism. From Malaysia through Singapore and across Indonesia to the southern Philippines, Islamic militants who once concentrated on local causes have formed regional terrorist networks with help from al-Qaida, bin Laden’s terrorist network. Over the past two years, they have planted bombs in churches and train stations that have killed dozens and wounded hundreds in Indonesia and the Philippines. In Malaysia, they helped plan last year’s Sept. 11 attacks on the United States. In Singapore late last year, they schemed to set off seven huge truck bombs simultaneously, each bigger than the bomb that blew up the Oklahoma City federal building, mostly directed at American targets, including the embassy. Al-Qaida instigated that plan because "it wanted to show it could still throw a punch," said the U.S. ambassador to Singapore Franklin Lavin. But the thwarted plot was to have been carried out by secret local cells of a regional terrorist network called Jemaah Islamiyah, according to Singaporean authorities. U.S. intelligence officials who spoke on condition of anonymity said the group was suspected of planning anniversary attacks this week in Jakarta and elsewhere. They said the Bush administration was considering whether it had enough evidence to add the group and its leader to the State Department’s list of terrorist organizations. In an interview last month with Knight Ridder at a religious school he runs in Solo, Indonesia, on the island of Java, the alleged leader, Abu Bakar Baasyir, denied with a wide smile that he’s the head of Jemaah Islamiya. The soft-spoken 63-year-old cleric said the terrorist network, which authorities in several countries blame for a series of attacks, didn’t exist. The allegations that he oversees an Islamic terrorist network are "part of a global strategy of the United States against Islam." But his dark eyes shone as he praised bin Laden for "trying to protect Islam." They shone again when he took obvious delight in the Sept. 11 attacks that killed almost 3,000 people in the United States. "We believe this to be the curse of God to punish the arrogance of America," he said. "Not only did Osama bin Laden feel happy about the attacks. I also was happy, and I believe many Muslims in Indonesia were happy in seeing the attacks. But that does not mean that they were responsible for the attacks." "Zionist Jews" were responsible, Baasyir said, a "small but dominant community in America." A photograph of bin Laden hangs on the wall of the clinic at the school, which is building a big addition to accommodate more students from the island of Java and beyond. A placard on the administration building declares: "Jihad is our way. Death in the way of Allah is our greatest aspiration." Jemaah Islamiyah "is operating as the branch office in Southeast Asia for al-Qaida," said a Western diplomat in Jakarta. The diplomat, speaking on condition of anonymity, described the group as "shadowy" and "decentralized," a web of numerous small, secret cells spread across several countries. Members of Jemaah Islamiyah, like other Southeast Asian militants, hope to create an Islamic superstate that would unify the region’s 230 million Muslims by fusing what are now Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei and the predominantly Muslim southern portions of Thailand and the Philippines. Baasyir and other militant clerics want to make Islam in Indonesia more "pure." Indonesia is the world’s most populous Muslim country, and most of the Muslims who live there are abangans, the name for Muslims who have blended Islam with Hinduism, Buddhism and other beliefs. The overwhelming majority are politically moderate. Still, many see the U.S.-led war on terrorism as an assault on Islam. "Militant Islam feeds upon the insecurities and alienation that globalization generates among the less successful," Singapore Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew told a gathering of international security experts in May. "And because globalization is largely U.S.-led and driven, militant Islam identifies America and Americans as the threat to Islam." Lee linked the regional threat directly to bin Laden, who he said, "successfully twined together a broad range of local groups, each with its own history of struggle for its own objectives, into a common universal jihad against the enemies of Islam." Among the groups Lee cited as having been co-opted by al-Qaida are the Moro Islamic Liberation Front and the Abu Sayyaf, both based in the largely Muslim southern Philippines, the Kumpulan Mujahideen Malaysia and Jemaah Islamiyah. Muslim militants remain a tiny minority in each of the Southeast Asian countries where they operate. But experts warn that despite their small numbers, they pose a significant threat to the region and a formidable challenge to the U.S.-led war on terrorism. Jemaah Islamiyah’s size isn’t known. But it’s believed to have at least several hundred members in Singapore and Malaysia, and probably a larger number in Indonesia. "It’s not just numbers, but dedication and ability," said Col. Rodolfo Mendoza, the former head of intelligence for the Philippine National Police, who oversaw investigations that linked individuals in the Philippines to the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. "Over the long term, the trend is worrisome," agreed a Southeast Asian official in a different country, speaking on condition that he not be identified. "It’s not just a numbers game – it does not take many to make bombs." Fathur Rohman al Ghozi, an Indonesian bomb maker and suspected key figure in the Singapore plot, told Philippine police after he was arrested in Manila in January that Jemaah Islamiyah was created to follow the example that Islam’s founder set 1,500 years ago, according to transcripts of his interrogation obtained by Knight Ridder. "The principle of our organization is the establishment of an independent Islamic state like Prophet Mohammed did," said al Ghozi, who confessed to planning the December 2000 bombings of commuter trains in Manila that killed 22 people and injured nearly 100. Baasyir acknowledged in the interview that some of his former students, including al Ghozi, have been implicated in terrorist attacks. But he said he could not be held responsible for what his students did after they graduated. "Yes, I was teaching Islam in Malaysia and Singapore, but I never taught them to make bombs or to behave in a violent way," said Baasyir, who had fled to Malaysia in the mid-1980s when the former Suharto regime in Indonesia cracked down on Islamic militants. But among those linked to Baasyir and Jemaah Islamiyah is Indonesian cleric Riduan Isamuddin, who authorities in several countries charge is al-Qaida’s main contact in Indonesia. A fugitive, Isamuddin is wanted by authorities in at least four countries. On an organizational chart of Jemaah Islamiyah that Singaporean authorities compiled, Isamuddin appears directly below Baasyir as part of a three-member regional council. Baasyir and Isamuddin "have been in regular contact since Sept. 11," said the Western diplomat in Jakarta. Indonesian police seek Isamuddin, also known as Hambali, for allegedly masterminding a series of attacks in which 36 bombs went off at Christian churches and schools throughout Indonesia on Christmas Eve 2000, killing 20 people and injuring more than 100. He is wanted in the Philippines for alleged involvement in the Manila train bombings that took place five days later. Malaysian authorities also are looking for Isamuddin, who has been linked to a bank robbery last year in that country by Islamic militants who authorities say wanted money to buy guns for Islamic militants who are fighting Christians in Indonesia’s Molucca Islands. The Malaysians also want to ask Isamuddin about his ties to Yazid Sufaat, a former Malaysian military captain whose condominium south of Kuala Lumpur, the capital, was used in January 2000 to plan the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States. Among those who attended that meeting were the two hijackers who ended up in the cockpit of the plane that hit the Pentagon. Sufaat, who’s in detention, also is accused of purchasing 4 tons of ammonium nitrate that was to be used along with 17 additional tons in the thwarted Singapore truck bombings, which Singaporean authorities say Isamuddin also masterminded. In an affidavit filed after his arrest, Sufaat admitted that he’d bought the ammonium nitrate but said he sold it to someone for use in a quarry. That would be the only quarry to prefer the crude blasting materials used by terrorists. Authorities say that at least eight of 13 suspected Jemaah Islamiyah members who have been detained in connection with the Singapore bombing plot received military training in Afghanistan. Jemaah Islamiyah’s roots reach back to the late 1940s, when Islamic extremists struggled to create an Islamic state in Indonesia. Dormant for decades, the movement was energized when Islamic volunteers from throughout Southeast Asia returned … read more »

Response:

The Houston Mom: Medea or Madonna? When her lover decides to ditch her in favor of a more blue-blooded match, Medea, a character in Greek Mythology, takes her revenge by killing their adored sons. A rapacious killer and schemer to rival any villain of the opposite sex, Medea has, however, undergone a literary transformation in recent decades. Even at their most ferocious, our society now insists that women are no more than passive victims, capable of few free choices. Medea has now found a place in the annals of women

Buddhism Hinduism

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Spiritual Reflections Update

Question:

Here at Spiritual Reflections we offer an online bible, daily mass readings, scriptures, Prayer book section which has many prayer for all occassions, Prayer Requests Page, the rosary, Saints Calender, ecards, awards, donate to chartiy for free page and Other religions of the world (buddhism, sikh, islam, judaism and hinduism) And Missions around the World, and much more. Click here to visit Us. We have been expericinecing some difficulties. these have now been resolved Awards Pages updated

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Buddhism Hinduism

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Spiritual Reflections Update

Question:

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Buddhism Hinduism

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I have a question perhaps of interest to others

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The concept of our "higher selves" is a non-physical entity that we work with. "The Great Work" is self improvement and actualization You know what I don’t understand though, if there is such a concept of a higher self.. what are we working towards? Aren’t we already there? I mean who is that reaching down for us, to guide us, if it isn’t our higher self, and then isn’t this life just about living this life, and learning, or doing what ever we need to do in this life.. what is all of this betterment deal going on.. how can we improve ourselves, if we are already there? And what’s past this point? Will we find that it is just another one us, holding this old man who is reaching for us? (re, image of Keter just popped into my mind there, so I wanted to use that analogy). To realize your higher self within a lifetime is the goal. For some, this is easy, for others, it takes many lifetimes to accomplish. One in the same, yet different. Both moving forward… can you ever be one with your higher self? That is up to you to decide. <sigh Damned fingers like to type gibberish from time to time. I’m out…

I wouldn’t say it’s gibberish at all. I think summed the situation up quite nicely. Love & Laughter, Nightshade

Response:

A year ago, a fellow poster from one of the newsgroups that I follow, wrote to me regarding conversation and interaction with her higherself. This was NOT interesting. Do not post any more questions

Go back to playing in the sandbox, fool. To those of us with more than a double-digit IQ, it was fairly interesting.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The concept of our "higher selves" is a non-physical entity that we work with. "The Great Work" is self improvement and actualization You know what I don’t understand though, if there is such a concept of a higher self.. what are we working towards? Aren’t we already there? I mean who is that reaching down for us, to guide us, if it isn’t our higher self, and then isn’t this life just about living this life, and learning, or doing what ever we need to do in this life.. what is all of this betterment deal going on.. how can we improve ourselves, if we are already there? And what’s past this point? Will we find that it is just another one us, holding this old man who is reaching for us? (re, image of Keter just popped into my mind there, so I wanted to use that analogy).

To realize your higher self within a lifetime is the goal. For some, this is easy, for others, it takes many lifetimes to accomplish. One in the same, yet different. Both moving forward… can you ever be one with your higher self? That is up to you to decide. <sigh Damned fingers like to type gibberish from time to time. I’m out…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A year ago, a fellow poster from one of the newsgroups that I follow, wrote to me regarding conversation and interaction with her higherself. This was NOT interesting. Do not post any more questions *It was interesting to me. Don’t like it, don’t read it, as another of our infamous posters keeps saying. I think she should have to post this shit outside with the smokers <snort

I am.. your full of smoking shit.

Response:

Yes. Wiccans are children of the Western Enlightenment. That is, we believe in a better future through science.

No, you are the children of Western marketing and Socialist politics — Talesin- The Bad Boy of Witchcraft ™ http://home.kc.rr.com/pendragonsloft "If we are here to help others, exactly what are others here for?" - George Carlin

Response:

The concept of our "higher selves" is a non-physical entity that we work with. "The Great Work" is self improvement and actualization

You know what I don’t understand though, if there is such a concept of a higher self.. what are we working towards? Aren’t we already there? I mean who is that reaching down for us, to guide us, if it isn’t our higher self, and then isn’t this life just about living this life, and learning, or doing what ever we need to do in this life.. what is all of this betterment deal going on.. how can we improve ourselves, if we are already there? And what’s past this point? Will we find that it is just another one us, holding this old man who is reaching for us? (re, image of Keter just popped into my mind there, so I wanted to use that analogy).

Response:

A year ago, a fellow poster from one of the newsgroups that I follow, wrote to me regarding conversation and interaction with her higherself. This was NOT interesting. That was YOUR opinion.

That was my insightful, informed, highly respected, and Universally correct opinion Do not post any more questions I would suggest that it might be wise to not give orders outside of your authority or ability to enforce.

The suggestion box is in the bathroom. Be sure to pull the silver handle to make sure your suggestion is properly submitted. You may claim to be the "God" of this group, but your claims do not make it so.

Perhaps they, alone, don’t but it is true nonetheless. — Talesin- The Bad Boy of Witchcraft ™ http://home.kc.rr.com/pendragonsloft "If we are here to help others, exactly what are others here for?" - George Carlin

Response:

A year ago, a fellow poster from one of the newsgroups that I follow, wrote to me regarding conversation and interaction with her higherself. This was NOT interesting. Do not post any more questions *It was interesting to me. Don’t like it, don’t read it, as another of our infamous posters keeps saying.

I think she should have to post this shit outside with the smokers <snort — Talesin- The Bad Boy of Witchcraft ™ http://home.kc.rr.com/pendragonsloft "If we are here to help others, exactly what are others here for?" - George Carlin

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Hy, Memes, if you are not aware of them, you may find them most interesting. meme – a unit of cultural information that is replicated from brain to brain via communication. have a look at this for starters http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/MEMIN.html then do a google search on memes and memetics – you may well find it most interesting regarding this ‘hs’ idea. golwg root

ah, very interesting, thank you.

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A year ago, a fellow poster from one of the newsgroups that I follow, wrote to me regarding conversation and interaction with her higherself. This was NOT interesting. Do not post any more questions

*It was interesting to me. Don’t like it, don’t read it, as another of our infamous posters keeps saying. Kate

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Yes. Wiccans are children of the Western Enlightenment. That is, we believe in a better future through science. But unlike conventional science we experiment with the non-physical. The concept of our "higher selves" is a non-physical entity that we work with. "The Great Work" is self improvement and actualization. Carl Rogers talks allot about The Great Work and makes it easier to understand for those who want a modern interpretation.

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*It was interesting to me. Don’t like it, don’t read it, as another of our infamous posters keeps saying.

thanks kate

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The concept of our "higher selves" is a non-physical entity that we work with. "The Great Work" is self improvement and actualization. Carl Rogers talks allot about The Great Work and makes it easier to understand for those who want a modern interpretation.

thanks ren, the late psychologist?

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A year ago, a fellow poster from one of the newsgroups that I follow, wrote to me regarding conversation and interaction with her higherself.

<snipped but not forgotten Hello Hy, Memes, if you are not aware of them, you may find them most interesting. meme – a unit of cultural information that is replicated from brain to brain via communication. have a look at this for starters http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/MEMIN.html then do a google search on memes and memetics – you may well find it most interesting regarding this ‘hs’ idea. golwg root

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A year ago, a fellow poster from one of the newsgroups that I follow, wrote to me regarding conversation and interaction with her higherself.

This was NOT interesting. Do not post any more questions — Talesin- The Bad Boy of Witchcraft ™ http://home.kc.rr.com/pendragonsloft "If we are here to help others, exactly what are others here for?" - George Carlin

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Pardon the snips, but this post is looooong enough … *snip* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By "certain system", is there one in particular that this person has in mind? Sounds almost Goetic. Of course, there is always the Abramelin system for contact and Conversation with the Holy Guardian Angel. I’m not sure exactly which "system" is being talked about here. I believe it was GD in system. However, another friend was talking to me about her own experiences in person, and she was saying basically the same thing, and said (very syncronistically, without me telling her that I was being told this by other people).. that this happens whether you study under Buddha, or any other system. Her analogy was "you can walk down the same hallways, but the door with Buddha behind it opens, it is the same experience, just a different "god" behind the door".. but that this is the path you are taking, so this is the door with all of it’s terminology, symbols, etc., that you will open to find knowledge and understanding made available to you.

Interesting analogy. When I’m embarking on a new endeavor/system, I do a little ritual where I open myself to information and knowledge about it. I research first, and when I feel I’m ready to give it a try, I do so. Sometimes my research shows that the system is not right for me — or at least not at this particular time. If I feel it has potential for later perusal, I squirrell away any information that may come my way for future reference. Even if I don’t pick up that practice, there is always the possibility that my children may (or at least ask me about it), so it’s not just wasted time. There are Paths that don’t feel right to me at all. In that case, I pretty much leave them alone, though I note others’ comments and experience. It is interesting that the tales related by practitioners past and present pretty much bolster my initial impression and reinforce my reasons for non-perusal. Nevertheless, every system I may deem useless for me and most other people seems to have some who get good results from it. Just goes to show ya, there’s a lid for every pot. Seek and you shall know/find.

Yeah, but sometimes the search is far more interesting than the actual discovery. ;^) *snip* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Because this higherself has an interest in you studying these methods for its own benefit. Then it is NOT one’s Higher Self. The ego, perhaps. what about group thought.. or something.. the energy that an entire group puts into the system, so, you breaking away from it, is like invalidating the system, so you may have that entity or even the people in the group – fighting their way against you because it invalidates their own system. Whether they are conscious of it or not. For instance, if you are my friend, and you quit, then I think about the reasons that you quit and what that means to my own system, (especially if we think a lot a like, yet you quit and I did not) so I invest a lot of time in thinking about you and this energy is sort of – aimed at you for awhile.. does that make sense? It could then be felt as your own hga working against you, when really it is just the system of people around you, many of them perhaps, focusing on you while thinking about their own thoughts and systems, beliefs and rituals and whether they are valid or not.. or even worse.. working against you. Perhaps like a sucubus, that you have fed all of this energy into and are now trying to free yourself from.

Good point. Kind of a group thought-form. I’ve heard of some groups that intentionally create a thought-form to guard and personify their group. I’m sure it’s possible that one can be created subconsciously. Or an entity can be attracted that feeds off of or participates in the group dynamic. I’ve been in groups that attracted the fae, who are harmless, but IMHO a discordant and/or manipulative type of group would tend to draw a more malevolent type of being. *snip* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just as the various forms of Deity are forces of nature and archetypes anthropomorphisized into more or less human form, so are "angels" and "demons" the emotions and drives of humanity personified. This does not mean they cannot exist outside of oneself, but the personality of the individual more or less determines the kind of entities s/he will attract. good point, also (turning your point sideways), because this is what I am trying to decide for myself about "angels" (re: archetypes), also, I think that you attract certain archtypes/angels deities, etc., while you are in this certain "mood" because 1) these are the energies/forces around you at the time, that are causing you to act like this, as well as attract like/opposite energies to balance itself out and 2) these energies caused you to be like this, and for some reason such as a needed energy/need to find balance/need to understand a certain energy/ or hold onto that energy (glom on to it because it means something to you), these things stick around more then other energies would. I mean it is a lot easier to think about the stuff that hurts, rather then appreciate the stuff that feels good (on a small matter like, eating fruit, compared to a larger feel good, say sex).

Yes, but there comes a point where wallowing in misery is just masochism. Even Buddhism recognizes this. It’s easy to play martyr, flogging yourself and pretending to atone for the sins of the world, but far harder to realize that no one else gives a shit. In the end, you’re just spiritually masturbating yourself. No one is "saved" by your suffering, not even you. There’s a little take on the old "Footprints" pablum that quite sums it up: http://www.chaosmatrix.com/lib/humor/buttprints.html. No one continues to remain a victim unless they’re getting something out of it. If it seems that some other entity is in control of your life, and in an unsavory fashion, then it’s time to take it back. Re-connect, ground, center, and get off yer ass. ;^) *snip* A punishing entity, or one that acts in passive-aggressive ways such as the "hs" the person you speak of does, feeds off of the supplication and fear of its victim. Yes, I said victim. The HGA (Holy Guardian Angel) of ceremonial/Kabbalistic magick would never act in such a way. Only if the magick user goes down a path that would harm hirself or others would the HGA refuse to participate, or choose to send warnings through entities or signs that the practitioner could not ignore. yes, see.. and this actually sort of shows you what I mean by creating a supposed HGA in a certain method/system of being. What if you want to learn through pain, or through love? How do we really know, that our HGA wouldn’t act like this. I mean maybe ours does not, but how do we know about how others will act or need the HGA to act?

Well, the HGA wouldn’t gratify masochistic tendencies, as that would be counter-productive. Nor would it coddle. The HGA tends to shock the practitioner in ways s/he does not expect if s/he is acting in self-destructive ways. *snip* I guess what I have trouble with hierarchy and the origin of these angels, etc.

Just as many of the "Saints" are Xianized God/dess forms, so many of the angelic/demonic entities come from pantheons outside of the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic framework. Hope I’ve given you some helpful suggestions. Oh you have, thank you. And you have eased a few of my senses.

Glad to be of some assistance. :^) Love & Laughter, Nightshade

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Hey.. I crashed before I could send my other response to you.. Hi, hy – er, um, you know what I mean! <g

yep.. I don’t mind that.. it sounds happy.. <snippage has occurred My questions, if you have not already guessed them: can you understand this persons point of view of "the higherself"? How likely is this to be true? I do agree that when you invest time and energy into a path of study that you may awaken or gain the attention of certain energies. However, I disagree that these energies have "ulterior" motives – and I definitely disagree with the assesment that, if you "stray from the path," there is some form of punishment. But I think I can see where that came from.

It is nice to get a Wiccan’s idea on this topic. When a person studies or works with anything (esoteric or mundane), certain habits form. What she was describing as being "punished" may actually be the effort and pain involved in breaking any habit – the more important the particular habit is to you, the harder it is to break it (i.e. the more "pain" you go through).

yes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is my own belief that we are in complete control of our destinies – not the Gods, or "higherselves," our astrological signs, or what have you. We’re in charge – and that can be as much a bad thing as it is a good thing. If you make wrong decisions and end up hurting yourself or other people needlessly, you not only bear the consequences, but the blame. There are no excuses of "my higher self made me do it," any more than there are excuses of "the devil made me do it." At the same time, we live in a world of over 6 billion people who are also making decisions, and who are also in control of their destinies. We interact with these people, and their actions affect us. This is where, for instance, Richard Bachman’s "You create your own universe" idea breaks down – I’m not alone in my universe. Ideally, you strive to become a perfect person. Practically, most people do not have the luxury of spending every minute concentrating on perfection – nor do they have knowledge of what is "perfect." So we do the best we can. That means we re-assess who we are, how well we are doing, and what we need to do in the future. Would this creation of a "higher you" truly seek to harm you if you are to change your plans and go another direction? No. But remember what I said about breaking habits? That’s one of the "exoteric" causes behind the Law of Return. Do Wiccan’s have this notion of a higherself? Is this a major task that the average Wiccan strives to accomplish? Not all do – I don’t, personally. But I understand the concept (I have practiced Ceremonial Magick), and there are parallels. Instead of a "higher self," many Wiccans concentrate on a clearer awareness of the relatedness between themselves and Deity. These questions are no longer something I worry about, what I do have some uneasiness about, is the "one true way" and how it relates to these questions. For instance, say I decide to study a form of magick, I don’t really know what I am getting myself into, until I have gotten myself into it. And even then, what one finds along their path, is not always what it appears to be at the time, compared to say a year later. A struggle could be a very positive thing that one needs to work through, or it could be a very negative thing that one should drop from their system of beliefs and ritual. How do we know? How do I know what suits me before I start to study a certain system(s) of beliefs of magick. You don’t. Unfortunately, that’s all part of being human – we deal with what we know _now_, and make the best decisions we can from what we know. I could go to friends and ask them what they believe to be the best for me. This will be both positive and negative, but they do not always know what is best, and they can not always tell you, even if they think a system is best. You could – but does your frined know you well enough to make that decision accurately? I have my doubts – in fact, I doubt that _you_ know you well enough to make that decision and be guaranteed of success. Hy, that constant cycle of striving and re-assessment is a daily thing with me – and probably with most people here, if they were to discuss it.

so very true. , thank you. I didn’t write a lot, because this is my second go at your response, and since I first wrote you, I feel purged of these worries. I had these few strings of attachment to what I had going on in my life, and, it just feels so good to get this off my chest, realize what I am saying, and just move on from there. I didn’t snip your post, because I thought that what you wrote makes a lot of sense, for anybody, not just myself. It was my hope actually, that me writing this, would mean that the appropriate person(s) would read this, and be able to lighten their load as well. Cut the stagnating wires, and move on to the new. Thank you. Goodnight. many blessings, hy.

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<a bit was snipped because it just didn’t seem relevant or even periods of "non-questioning", which bothered me even more. This is what firs jumped out at me. Question EVERYTHING! That way you can decide whether it fits into your belief system, and doesn’t alter the path that you are on. Or perhaps you want that path altered.

Oh, I do. I was also very aware of where I would invest my energies, and what this would mean to future studies/rituals/and beliefs in my own system. Would I be creating a system that would act as a trap of my own self made beliefs, or even worse – would I be creating a life in a belief system that was no more valid, but came from someone else’s grand scheme. In other words, you are becoming a desciple? Why? Be yourself. Sure, if you don’t have certain knowledge, "another man’s can be borrowed until you have your own. " But realize that all of us are on our own.

not becoming now, no.. I was though, for awhile. Not really though. You may or not have read the interaction between "Me" and I, regarding the study of Wicca. I have decided to pick up my studies again, in the various magickal arts. Therefore, I have a few questions that are You really don’t know. Often I think back a few years and think ‘was I that stupid?’ Or did I learn this much? I’ll give you an example; mirrors in spells. I asked friends, they were no help, but alone I found the answers I needed.

I have found this out myself, you know. Very valuable lesson. And something I needed to hear repeated just now. Hm, the entire native population that isn’t Christian yet believes in Angels will be surprised. You see there are things you may not have known about. You are doing the smart thing in asking questions.

yes, of course. thank you.

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Wow, a powerful post, thank you Nightshade. I was already into the process of replying to you and Goofy, when my computer crashed and I lost my responses. So this is just a water down less expressive answer then I really wanted to write to you about. I am glad that you have written back to me, I feel that you have a lot of similar experience as me, and so I will understand from your perspective. more below. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A year ago, a fellow poster from one of the newsgroups that I follow, wrote to me regarding conversation and interaction with her higherself. She wrote about how we may have different higherselves*, and "higherselves" who really are not our "higherselves", but entities who try and fashion our improvement and study, under a certain system. She wrote that one gathers this highereself "hs" through study, and meditation and ritual of a certain system. First off, I ascribe to "As above, so below". The Divine is in us and we are part of the Divine. The Self, or part of it (call it the Higher Self if you wish), is always in contact with the Divine. This can be seen either as an intermediary within and/or without, depending upon one’s perspective. I see it as both concurrently. Ever have an experience when you’re totally One with everything, both part of and containing All within yourself?

Yes, see, it is difficult for me to write about a past experience which I have resolved, yet, still have some questions to, and not remember the fears or questions that have lead to this thought path. This is why I think it was good that you answered, I feel you are on a similar path that will have similar sort of questions/answers and insights. What you say makes sense, especially to me now, although, you might have had a few "yes but(s)" from me a year or two ago. By "certain system", is there one in particular that this person has in mind? Sounds almost Goetic. Of course, there is always the Abramelin system for contact and Conversation with the Holy Guardian Angel. I’m not sure exactly which "system" is being talked about here.

I believe it was GD in system. However, another friend was talking to me about her own experiences in person, and she was saying basically the same thing, and said (very syncronistically, without me telling her that I was being told this by other people).. that this happens whether you study under Buddha, or any other system. Her analogy was "you can walk down the same hallways, but the door with Buddha behind it opens, it is the same experience, just a different "god" behind the door".. but that this is the path you are taking, so this is the door with all of it’s terminology, symbols, etc., that you will open to find knowledge and understanding made available to you. Seek and you shall know/find. For instance, if you study a certain deck of tarot cards, the symbology of that deck may awaken certain aspects of the "self", or even your "hs", in certain ways. True enough. The right Tarot deck has what I call "psychic triggers" that pull information from your intuition/subconscious into the conscious mind. Personally, I see psychic senses and intuition as being hardwired into the brain and part of the survival instinct — not "Higher Self" but actually the "Lower" (or "Animal Soul" as Aristotle would put it) — but that’s just me.

yes, I agree with this actually. Or may cause the attention of that certain system, and its energies to focus on you. It’s true that entities take an interest in occult and magickal practices. Sometimes they challenge (the "Guardian of the Threshhold", etc.). Other times they warn, oppose, or assist. However, it is only the foolish practitioner who allows one to take control of hir chosen Path.

I really thought that I would get a lot of nay sayers to my post, and here you are, stating very well, what I had in mind. I am surprised. I had imagined people with warning lights that I am a kook, flashing in my face. She also told me that if one tends to veer away from this system, then one is punished by this supposed "higherself". New one on me! Because this higherself has an interest in you studying these methods for its own benefit. Then it is NOT one’s Higher Self. The ego, perhaps.

what about group thought.. or something.. the energy that an entire group puts into the system, so, you breaking away from it, is like invalidating the system, so you may have that entity or even the people in the group – fighting their way against you because it invalidates their own system. Whether they are conscious of it or not. For instance, if you are my friend, and you quit, then I think about the reasons that you quit and what that means to my own system, (especially if we think a lot a like, yet you quit and I did not) so I invest a lot of time in thinking about you and this energy is sort of – aimed at you for awhile.. does that make sense? It could then be felt as your own hga working against you, when really it is just the system of people around you, many of them perhaps, focusing on you while thinking about their own thoughts and systems, beliefs and rituals and whether they are valid or not.. or even worse.. working against you. Perhaps like a sucubus, that you have fed all of this energy into and are now trying to free yourself from. I mean, the reason that I am saying this, is i am trying to find a plausible explanation for what I am hearing from several different people. I also agree with what you write below.. but I keep your well thought out post in the order you wrote it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Truly, what she wrote to me about, was not a higherself in my own definition. Nor mine. However, I had been questioning my own source of self, and where I received my own information from, and I was also watching a few others go through similar questioning, or even periods of "non-questioning", which bothered me even more. Question everything. If you receive information from your psychic senses or the "Higher Self", affirm or deny it by means of keeping a magickal journal and independent research. Only then can the voices of the ego and the Higher Self be differentiated. IMHO, those who listen only to their inner voices without establishing their veracity are no better than spiritual junkies.

agreed, balance, and validate. I was also very aware of where I would invest my energies, and what this would mean to future studies/rituals/and beliefs in my own system. Would I be creating a system that would act as a trap of my own self made beliefs, or even worse – would I be creating a life in a belief system that was no more valid, but came from someone else’s grand scheme. The very fact that you question your motivations is a good thing. It is important to be skeptical and analytic when it comes to magickal processes. "What am I getting out of this?" is a good question to ask yourself. List all the good things and the bad, and make your decision from there. Be brutally honest with yourself — it is the only way you can make the correct decision.

yes thanks, this makes sense with what you say below, "I can come back to this at a later date, when I find a more positive reason to be working in this area". You may or not have read the interaction between "Me" and I, regarding the study of Wicca. I have decided to pick up my studies again, in the various magickal arts. Therefore, I have a few questions that are coming to mind that I would like some discussion on and perhaps feedback from any of you, Wiccan or not. My questions, if you have not already guessed them: can you understand this persons point of view of "the higherself"? This person’s "Higher Self" seems parasitic. Perhaps it is hir’s ego gratifying itself, or some entity that has glommed onto hir and feeding itself off hir’s energy and practices. It certainly does not sound like a healthy relationship, or anything approaching "Higher" as I understand the term.

to be very honest, I actually thought to myself (when I was reading her work).. "how long where you studying this path? Are you positive this was your HGA doing this to you?" But then, you know, maybe she was advanced, or very open, or ready and actually in contact with her HGA.. and maybe this is what her HGA did, or maybe she was very aware of other things that I have no idea about. What benefit, if any, is this person getting from this relationship? Further, does this spiritual relationship mirror any in this person’s real life? A controlling, dominating one that punishes the person if s/he does not fit the other’s standard of behavior?

Yes, and that is something that was very difficult for me to ascertain from her emails, because, she maybe be like this from her experience, she could be like this naturally, or like myself found herself in a situation that she wanted to be in, but was not ready to be in or really meant to be in, and with all of the struggles that one goes through alchemically, hit a spot that really should bother her, and that she might have worked out later on…..yet.. there are still other more nastier answers in my head that I can relate to this, some of them because of her, and some not because of her, some just because of the situation and no ones fault at all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How likely is this to be true? How do you know if you are truly working towards a better you, or just someone’s idea of what a better you should end up like, and how you should fashion yourself to have a certain end result similar to what ever system you are working towards. Would this creation of a "higher you" truly seek to harm you if you are to

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My questions, if you have not already guessed them: can you understand this persons point of view of "the higherself"? How likely is this to be true? How do you know if you are truly working towards a better you, or just someone’s idea of what a better you should end up like, and how you should fashion yourself to have a certain end result similar to what ever system you are working towards. Would this creation of a "higher you" truly seek to harm you if you are to change your plans and go another direction?

Thelemites subscribe to the notion of the "Holy Guardian Angel" which you are called to find, and after a fashion seek knowledge and conversation with. That "higher self" is connected to the greater Divine, and through it, you somehow find enlightenment. The Catholic concept of the Holy Ghost is not dissimilar to the notion of a "higher self": through finding the Holy Ghost and receiving it’s gifts (knowledge, wisdom, understanding, faith, etc.), you find enlightenment. Through those gifts you find love, appreciation of others, humility, and the like. The Holy Ghost, while one alongside Jesus and God as part of the Holy Trinity, appears to each of us in different ways–sometimes as an angel or a being calling us to our "higher self." In each case above the "higher self" is part of the divine which calls you to either find connection with the divine, or find the better parts of yourself which are connected to the divine. And if we broaden the definition of the "higher self" to include that ineffable spark, that ineffiable connection to the divine but which is not necessarly separate from us, then Buddhism and Hinduism both subscribe to a notion of a "divine center" inside of us which is a conduit to the divine. Finding that "inner spark" is not dissimilar to finding the "better part" of us. I would not dare speculate as to what a Wiccan concept of a "higher self" would be, as the theology of Wicca is not uniform nor is it dogmatic. (Saying "Wiccans believe this or don’t believe that" is stating dogma.) But I can certainly appreciate the notion of finding the better part of myself which is inherently connected to the divine web of life. — William Edward Woody - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody In Phase Consulting - http://www.inphase.org The PandaWave - http://www.pandawave.com

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thanks Me.

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<a bit was snipped because it just didn’t seem relevant or even periods of "non-questioning", which bothered me even more.

This is what firs jumped out at me. Question EVERYTHING! That way you can decide whether it fits into your belief system, and doesn’t alter the path that you are on. Or perhaps you want that path altered. I was also very aware of where I would invest my energies, and what this would mean to future studies/rituals/and beliefs in my own system. Would I be creating a system that would act as a trap of my own self made beliefs, or even worse – would I be creating a life in a belief system that was no more valid, but came from someone else’s grand scheme.

In other words, you are becoming a desciple? Why? Be yourself. Sure, if you don’t have certain knowledge, "another man’s can be borrowed until you have your own. " But realize that all of us are on our own. You may or not have read the interaction between "Me" and I, regarding the study of Wicca. I have decided to pick up my studies again, in the various magickal arts. Therefore, I have a few questions that are coming to mind that I would like some discussion on and perhaps feedback from any of you, Wiccan or not. My questions, if you have not already guessed them: can you understand this persons point of view of "the higherself"? How likely is this to be true? How do you know if you are truly working towards a better you, or just someone’s idea of what a better you should end up like, and how you should fashion yourself to have a certain end result similar to what ever system you are working towards. Would this creation of a "higher you" truly seek to harm you if you are to change your plans and go another direction?

A higher self? I never had that view, I did always seek to better myself. To learn more and there is so much more to learn we never stop. How to know? Maybe compare your life now to a year ago, or ask an objective outsider, anything that would settle it for you. This is interesting, I’d guess a higher you or better you might since this is you if you were doing something self destructive say don’t. Otherwise, there is one mind, you aren’t schizophrenic so I’d think that would be the extent. Do Wiccan’s have this notion of a higherself? Is this a major task that the average Wiccan strives to accomplish?

When I was one I didn’t, to be better was always in my mind. Something Too Goofy mentioned, choose some dieties that you like. If you are really lucky or wise just one will "fit a mold." Start a rapport with her/him. These questions are no longer something I worry about, what I do have some uneasiness about, is the "one true way" and how it relates to these questions.

There is no "one true way" for anything. Established ways yes. For instance, say I decide to study a form of magick, I don’t really know what I am getting myself into, until I have gotten myself into it. And even then, what one finds along their path, is not always what it appears to be at the time, compared to say a year later. A struggle could be a very positive thing that one needs to work through, or it could be a very negative thing that one should drop from their system of beliefs and ritual. How do we know? How do I know what suits me before I start to study a certain system(s) of beliefs of magick.

You really don’t know. Often I think back a few years and think ‘was I that stupid?’ Or did I learn this much? I’ll give you an example; mirrors in spells. I asked friends, they were no help, but alone I found the answers I needed. I could go to friends and ask them what they believe to be the best for me. This will be both positive and negative, but they do not always know what is best, and they can not always tell you, even if they think a system is best. For instance, I am very curious about angels, even though I never used to believe in them, and I am not Christian. How can I work in a Christian system, without believing in this system, yet find something of importance in it’s study. And how do I fashion this in a way that will allow me to study that which is of my path, instead of spending a lot of time studying other methods that I do not want to be putting my energy towards (as I tend to spend a lot of time studying sidetracks rather then that which I am supposed to be focused on).

Hm, the entire native population that isn’t Christian yet believes in Angels will be surprised. You see there are things you may not have known about. You are doing the smart thing in asking questions. ~Autumn~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope that some of you will give me your serious answers to my questions. I look forward to reading your posts on this issue. —– *I have written "higherselves" to indicate a separation in identity from the real thing – the "Higherself", even if they are truly one in the same.

Response:

First off, I ascribe to "As above, so below". The Divine is in us and we are part of the Divine. The Self, or part of it (call it the Higher Self if you wish), is always in contact with the Divine. This can be seen either as an intermediary within and/or without, depending upon one’s perspective. I see it as both concurrently. Ever have an experience when you’re totally One with everything, both part of and containing All within yourself? By "certain system", is there one in particular that this person has in mind? Sounds almost Goetic. Of course, there is always the Abramelin system for contact and Conversation with the Holy Guardian Angel. I’m not sure exactly which "system" is being talked about here. For instance, if you study a certain deck of tarot cards, the symbology of that deck may awaken certain aspects of the "self", or even your "hs", in certain ways.

True enough. The right Tarot deck has what I call "psychic triggers" that pull information from your intuition/subconscious into the conscious mind. Personally, I see psychic senses and intuition as being hardwired into the brain and part of the survival instinct — not "Higher Self" but actually the "Lower" (or "Animal Soul" as Aristotle would put it) — but that’s just me. Or may cause the attention of that certain system, and its energies to focus on you.

It’s true that entities take an interest in occult and magickal practices. Sometimes they challenge (the "Guardian of the Threshhold", etc.). Other times they warn, oppose, or assist. However, it is only the foolish practitioner who allows one to take control of hir chosen Path. She also told me that if one tends to veer away from this system, then one is punished by this supposed "higherself".

New one on me! Because this higherself has an interest in you studying these methods for its own benefit.

Then it is NOT one’s Higher Self. The ego, perhaps. Truly, what she wrote to me about, was not a higherself in my own definition.

Nor mine. However, I had been questioning my own source of self, and where I received my own information from, and I was also watching a few others go through similar questioning, or even periods of "non-questioning", which bothered me even more.

Question everything. If you receive information from your psychic senses or the "Higher Self", affirm or deny it by means of keeping a magickal journal and independent research. Only then can the voices of the ego and the Higher Self be differentiated. IMHO, those who listen only to their inner voices without establishing their veracity are no better than spiritual junkies. I was also very aware of where I would invest my energies, and what this would mean to future studies/rituals/and beliefs in my own system. Would I be creating a system that would act as a trap of my own self made beliefs, or even worse – would I be creating a life in a belief system that was no more valid, but came from someone else’s grand scheme.

The very fact that you question your motivations is a good thing. It is important to be skeptical and analytic when it comes to magickal processes. "What am I getting out of this?" is a good question to ask yourself. List all the good things and the bad, and make your decision from there. Be brutally honest with yourself — it is the only way you can make the correct decision. You may or not have read the interaction between "Me" and I, regarding the study of Wicca. I have decided to pick up my studies again, in the various magickal arts. Therefore, I have a few questions that are coming to mind that I would like some discussion on and perhaps feedback from any of you, Wiccan or not. My questions, if you have not already guessed them: can you understand this persons point of view of "the higherself"?

This person’s "Higher Self" seems parasitic. Perhaps it is hir’s ego gratifying itself, or some entity that has glommed onto hir and feeding itself off hir’s energy and practices. It certainly does not sound like a healthy relationship, or anything approaching "Higher" as I understand the term. What benefit, if any, is this person getting from this relationship? Further, does this spiritual relationship mirror any in this person’s real life? A controlling, dominating one that punishes the person if s/he does not fit the other’s standard of behavior? How likely is this to be true? How do you know if you are truly working towards a better you, or just someone’s idea of what a better you should end up like, and how you should fashion yourself to have a certain end result similar to what ever system you are working towards. Would this creation of a "higher you" truly seek to harm you if you are to change your plans and go another direction?

Just as the various forms of Deity are forces of nature and archetypes anthropomorphisized into more or less human form, so are "angels" and "demons" the emotions and drives of humanity personified. This does not mean they cannot exist outside of oneself, but the personality of the individual more or less determines the kind of entities s/he will attract. For example, when doing Kabbalistic workings during a certain chaotic and traumatic period in my life, I attracted what most magickians would call a "demonic" entity. Yet it did not perform in the Biblical or Xian fashion, as a tempter urging me to wickedness and destruction. Instead, it showed me the frightening consequences of my real-life behavior should I continue acting as I was. Yeah, I admit it scared the heck out of me, but I refused to deal with the entity out of fear and took control of the situation. I have performed that same ritual during other, less stressful times, and had no such manifestations. When I’m acting in less than positive ways in rl or magickally the likelihood of encountering such nasties increases. When you fear something, you give it power. A punishing entity, or one that acts in passive-aggressive ways such as the "hs" the person you speak of does, feeds off of the supplication and fear of its victim. Yes, I said victim. The HGA (Holy Guardian Angel) of ceremonial/Kabbalistic magick would never act in such a way. Only if the magick user goes down a path that would harm hirself or others would the HGA refuse to participate, or choose to send warnings through entities or signs that the practitioner could not ignore. A person can sublimate mental illnesses and complexes into entities. Do they exist only inside the magickian? Or are they outside? Or both? I’ve come to see it as both. IMHO, when one invokes an entity, be it God/dess, angel or demon, there must be some correspondence within the magickian to enable the connection. Thus, as in my example, the appearance of nasties during an unrelated working. I recognized the connection between what was going on inside and the manifestation during my ritual, and took the hint. I was facing my Shadow, though the entity that appeared happened to take the form of a particular angel that some sources regard as "Fallen". Further research into that angelic/demonic form supplied me with some surprising answers — both as to the identity of the entity and the warning he gave me. I know one person in real life who claims to "battle and defeat demons in the astral" in some bizarre, pseudo-Xian D&D fashion yet who refuses to see the connection to his inner spiritual self. To him, these are totally separate entitites. Yet even a glancing overview of his lifestyle shows someone who is far from the Xian warrior he perceives himself to be. So does he really defeat these "demons"? Or is it merely his ego that sees it as such? In the end, hy, it is up to every person to establish their own connection and relationship to the Divine. Your instincts serve you well here. If something does not feel right, then it is wrong for you. There are many, many Paths, and they all lead to the same place sooner or later. It is up to each individual to find the one that best suits them. What may be right for one is not necessarily best for another. Do Wiccan’s have this notion of a higherself? Is this a major task that the average Wiccan strives to accomplish?

I think ALL spiritual Paths seek union with the Divine. These questions are no longer something I worry about, what I do have some uneasiness about, is the "one true way" and how it relates to these questions. For instance, say I decide to study a form of magick, I don’t really know what I am getting myself into, until I have gotten myself into it.

But you don’t know until you try. And even then, what one finds along their path, is not always what it appears to be at the time, compared to say a year later.

Needs and priorities change, both spiritual and actual. The Witch I am now is not the Witch I was when I started out, or for that matter who/what I was a few months ago. Some practices I abandon because they aren’t serving my spiritual needs, and sometimes I take them up again. That’s what nice about being eclectic. ;^) A struggle could be a very positive thing that one needs to work through, or it could be a very negative thing that one should drop from their system of beliefs and ritual. How do we know? How do I know what suits me before I start to study a certain system(s) of beliefs of magick.

Your instincts. … read more »

Response:

Hy: I am pretty new to the religion but from what I get out of it so far the meaning is to improve oneself, if not in this lifetime, then the next, or the one after that or how ever many it takes… but yes, it is to improve oneself.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A year ago, a fellow poster from one of the newsgroups that I follow, wrote to me regarding conversation and interaction with her higherself. She wrote about how we may have different higherselves*, and "higherselves" who really are not our "higherselves", but entities who try and fashion our improvement and study, under a certain system. She wrote that one gathers this highereself "hs" through study, and meditation and ritual of a certain system. For instance, if you study a certain deck of tarot cards, the symbology of that deck may awaken certain aspects of the "self", or even your "hs", in certain ways. Or may cause the attention of that certain system, and its energies to focus on you. She also told me that if one tends to veer away from this system, then one is punished by this supposed "higherself". Because this higherself has an interest in you studying these methods for its own benefit. Truly, what she wrote to me about, was not a higherself in my own definition. However, I had been questioning my own source of self, and where I received my own information from, and I was also watching a few others go through similar questioning, or even periods of "non-questioning", which bothered me even more. I was also very aware of where I would invest my energies, and what this would mean to future studies/rituals/and beliefs in my own system. Would I be creating a system that would act as a trap of my own self made beliefs, or even worse – would I be creating a life in a belief system that was no more valid, but came from someone else’s grand scheme. You may or not have read the interaction between "Me" and I, regarding the study of Wicca. I have decided to pick up my studies again, in the various magickal arts. Therefore, I have a few questions that are coming to mind that I would like some discussion on and perhaps feedback from any of you, Wiccan or not. My questions, if you have not already guessed them: can you understand this persons point of view of "the higherself"? How likely is this to be true? How do you know if you are truly working towards a better you, or just someone’s idea of what a better you should end up like, and how you should fashion yourself to have a certain end result similar to what ever system you are working towards. Would this creation of a "higher you" truly seek to harm you if you are to change your plans and go another direction? Do Wiccan’s have this notion of a higherself? Is this a major task that the average Wiccan strives to accomplish? These questions are no longer something I worry about, what I do have some uneasiness about, is the "one true way" and how it relates to these questions. For instance, say I decide to study a form of magick, I don’t really know what I am getting myself into, until I have gotten myself into it. And even then, what one finds along their path, is not always what it appears to be at the time, compared to say a year later. A struggle could be a very positive thing that one needs to work through, or it could be a very negative thing that one should drop from their system of beliefs and ritual. How do we know? How do I know what suits me before I start to study a certain system(s) of beliefs of magick. I could go to friends and ask them what they believe to be the best for me. This will be both positive and negative, but they do not always know what is best, and they can not always tell you, even if they think a system is best. For instance, I am very curious about angels, even though I never used to believe in them, and I am not Christian. How can I work in a Christian system, without believing in this system, yet find something of importance in it’s study. And how do I fashion this in a way that will allow me to study that which is of my path, instead of spending a lot of time studying other methods that I do not want to be putting my energy towards (as I tend to spend a lot of time studying sidetracks rather then that which I am supposed to be focused on). I hope that some of you will give me your serious answers to my questions. I look forward to reading your posts on this issue. —– *I have written "higherselves" to indicate a separation in identity from the real thing – the "Higherself", even if they are truly one in the same.

Response:

A year ago, a fellow poster from one of the newsgroups that I follow, wrote to me regarding conversation and interaction with her higherself. She wrote about how we may have different higherselves*, and "higherselves" who really are not our "higherselves", but entities who try and fashion our improvement and study, under a certain system. She wrote that one gathers this highereself "hs" through study, and meditation and ritual of a certain system. For instance, if you study a certain deck of tarot cards, the symbology of that deck may awaken certain aspects of the "self", or even your "hs", in certain ways. Or may cause the attention of that certain system, and its energies to focus on you. She also told me that if one tends to veer away from this system, then one is punished by this supposed "higherself". Because this higherself has an interest in you studying these methods for its own benefit. Truly, what she wrote to me about, was not a higherself in my own definition. However, I had been questioning my own source of self, and where I received my own information from, and I was also watching a few others go through similar questioning, or even periods of "non-questioning", which bothered me even more. I was also very aware of where I would invest my energies, and what this would mean to future studies/rituals/and beliefs in my own system. Would I be creating a system that would act as a trap of my own self made beliefs, or even worse – would I be creating a life in a belief system that was no more valid, but came from someone else’s grand scheme. You may or not have read the interaction between "Me" and I, regarding the study of Wicca. I have decided to pick up my studies again, in the various magickal arts. Therefore, I have a few questions that are coming to mind that I would like some discussion on and perhaps feedback from any of you, Wiccan or not. My questions, if you have not already guessed them: can you understand this persons point of view of "the higherself"? How likely is this to be true? How do you know if you are truly working towards a better you, or just someone’s idea of what a better you should end up like, and how you should fashion yourself to have a certain end result similar to what ever system you are working towards. Would this creation of a "higher you" truly seek to harm you if you are to change your plans and go another direction? Do Wiccan’s have this notion of a higherself? Is this a major task that the average Wiccan strives to accomplish? These questions are no longer something I worry about, what I do have some uneasiness about, is the "one true way" and how it relates to these questions. For instance, say I decide to study a form of magick, I don’t really know what I am getting myself into, until I have gotten myself into it. And even then, what one finds along their path, is not always what it appears to be at the time, compared to say a year later. A struggle could be a very positive thing that one needs to work through, or it could be a very negative thing that one should drop from their system of beliefs and ritual. How do we know? How do I know what suits me before I start to study a certain system(s) of beliefs of magick. I could go to friends and ask them what they believe to be the best for me. This will be both positive and negative, but they do not always know what is best, and they can not always tell you, even if they think a system is best. For instance, I am very curious about angels, even though I never used to believe in them, and I am not Christian. How can I work in a Christian system, without believing in this system, yet find something of importance in it’s study. And how do I fashion this in a way that will allow me to study that which is of my path, instead of spending a lot of time studying other methods that I do not want to be putting my energy towards (as I tend to spend a lot of time studying sidetracks rather then that which I am supposed to be focused on). I hope that some of you will give me your serious answers to my questions. I look forward to reading your posts on this issue. —– *I have written "higherselves" to indicate a separation in identity from the real thing – the "Higherself", even if they are truly one in the same.

Response:

Buddhism Hinduism

0 RESPONSES

Join the International Day of Prayer

Question:

Religious Liberty Prayer List – No. 145 – Wed 28 Nov 2001 WELCOME to the 87 intercessors who have joined the list over the past two months. NOVEMBER UPDATE On 4 and/or 11 November, the International Day for Prayer (IDOP) for the Persecuted Church was observed around the world. We can thank and praise God, not only because he heard our prayers, but because he ‘…is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine…’ (Ephesians 3:20) DURING NOVEMBER WE ALSO PRAYED SPECIFICALLY FOR – INDONESIA: where there has been a fresh insurgence of jihad aggression in Central Sulawesi and Maluku. Christian region of Poso, Central Sulawesi, compelled Jakarta to send in 100 of the National Police Mobile Brigade. Please keep praying for security to be restored as the situation is volatile and the refugee situation is fast becoming unmanageable. The Laskar Jihad appear to be manipulating matters for political, religious and financial reasons. According to one observer, ‘there can be no peace unless either the Laskar Jihad are withdrawn or the Christians are massacred.’ In Maluku, gun battles are raging between security forces and jihad militants trying to capture a Catholic training centre on a hill in the Karang Panjang area of Ambon city. Militarily this is a highly strategic site that overlooks several Christian neighbourhoods. Violence has escalated in Ambon over recent weeks, with a number of armed attacks and bombings since Jafar Umar Thalib (head of the Laskar Jihad) visited the region at the end of October and made inflammatory speeches. Christians brought Ambon to a standstill with a prayer vigil from 20 – 22 November. Rev. Mailoa of Maluku Synode Protestant Church had said, ‘The peaceful prayers will involve thousands of people, urging for unity and calm.’ AFGHANISTAN: when we praised God for the rescue of the eight foreign aid workers imprisoned and threatened with execution for preaching Christianity. We also prayed that religious liberty will become a reality in the new Afghanistan for the small underground Church of around 1,000 believers, and for the sake of the 26 million Afghans who, in the midst of all their suffering, may have never even heard the name of Jesus. ALSO DURING NOVEMBER – * SUDAN: PRAYERS ANSWERED PRAISE — On 14 November, ‘in answer to the prayers of many’ (2 Cor 1:11) the Islamic Government of Sudan (GoS) agreed to a four day cease-fire to enable the UN World Food Program to drop and distribute 2000 tonnes of food relief into the Nuba Mountains in Southern Sudan. This is a jihad-ravaged region where the GoS has blockaded humanitarian aid since 1989 as punishment for the Nuban’s resistance to Islamisation. The resulting GoS-induced famine has killed many hundreds of thousands, regarded by many as real genocide. The ceasefire was painstakingly negotiated by the UN with strong political leverage from the United States. ‘We are happy to see the food here,’ said one Sudanese man, ‘it means the international community has not forgotten us.’ Four days is not long, but it’s a start – please continue to pray for Sudan. * SAUDI ARABIA: CHRISTIAN LEADERS IMPRISONED In August, we requested prayer for six foreigners arrested for their Christian witness in Saudi Arabia (RLP 129). This recent wave of arrests started on 18 July with a house church leader in Jeddah. Names of other house church leaders were found amongst his belongings. At least 12 expatriate Christians, citizens of India, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Eritrea and the Philippines, are detained in Saudi prisons and requests for consular access have been repeatedly denied. There are reports that three of them have been beaten. * NORTH KOREA: INSTITUTIONALISED IDOLATRY North Korean President Kim Jong-il has launched a new movement aimed at rebuilding North Korea and preventing its collapse. The ‘revolutionary militant spirit’ is designed to build ‘a people’s paradise’. Rallies were held across North Korea last week to spread Mr Kim’s new drive with a call for ‘absolute worship’ of the supreme leader. The movement is named ‘Ranam’ after the Ranam Coal Mining Machine Complex in North Korea where supposed ‘miracles’ are being performed by the workers, resulting in improved productivity. The economy and the health care system are in crisis, the land is plagued with famine, floods and droughts and there are serious fuel shortages. Around 100,000 Christians are believed to be imprisoned for their faith in the country’s gulag of concentration camps. * TURKMENISTAN: On 15 November, 41 believers attending the Word of Life Church in Ashgabad, Turkmenistan, were detained when their worship service was raided by the KNB (formerly KGB). They were later released, but their passports were withheld pending payment of around $US50 each, the equivalent of a monthly wage. The owner of the flat where the house church met has been threatened with the confiscation of his home if there are any more church meetings, as have believers who invited two Russian pastors into the country. Boris Shikhmuradov, the recently defected Turkmenistan Foreign Minister, said of President Niyazov, ‘If he doesn’t liquidate it, it must be controlled. Christianity has been crushed … every believer is monitored. Turkmenistan needs religious liberty immediately.’ IN ALL OF THE ABOVE SITUATIONS, PLEASE PRAY: * that God will comfort fearful, suffering believers, with the assurance of his boundless love and eternal presence. ‘And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’ Matthew 28:20b * that God will raise up instruments of justice and righteousness in places we know are humanly beyond our reach. ‘For nothing is impossible with God.’ The angel Gabriel to Mary in Luke 1:37. Please pass this along to others with attribution to World Evangelical Fellowship (WEF) Religious Liberty The WEF Religious Liberty Commission sponsors this RL Prayer List to help individuals and groups pray specifically and regularly for religious liberty issues, and in particular to uphold the Church where it is suffering persecution. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

Response:

Sunday, November 4, 2001 "Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord." Phil 3:8 Situation: Today is the International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church. Thousands of churches around the world are praying for brothers and sisters in Christ who our faith but not our freedom. The family of Christ in Sudan needs these prayers. In mid-May, Sudanese government militias invaded the Nuba Mountains, targeting Christian villages and agriculture. There were many casualties, more than eight villages were burned, and thousands were displaced. Prayer Point: Pray that Christians in the free world will become aware of and pray and take action on behalf of the persecuted Church. Pray for the Christians and their peaceful Muslim neighbors in the Nuba Mountains, that they will remain strong and resilient in their faith, and that the outside world will come to their aid. This month’s prayer points provided courtesy of Bishop Gassis Sudan Relief Fund. — Director, John Mark Ministries: counseling and consulting services for pastors, ex-pastors, church leaders and managers http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm (5400+ articles) http://priscillasfriends.org/ (Pastors’ wives)

Response:

Religious Liberty Prayer List – No. 142 – Thu 08 Nov 2001 IDOP 2001 (continued): ‘RENEW THEM IN OUR DAY…’ The International Day of Prayer (IDOP) for the Persecuted Church is a special time when Christians around the globe unite as one voice in prayer for believers who are suffering for their faith. Last week’s RLP 141, also a special for IDOP 2001, focused specifically on the plight of persecuted believers. As a Religious Liberty Commission, we are concerned also about the tragic effects of religious repression on those who are lost. In so many lands, regimes that oppress and persecute the Church are also withholding ‘new life’ from these millions of people who are spiritually hungry and thirsty. This too is a call to the Church to wield prayer as the ‘weapon’ with ‘divine power to demolish strongholds’ (2 Cor 10:4). In fact we are living in exciting times when God is doing marvellous things. Communism, Islam and Hinduism may rule large tracts of this world, but people are becoming increasingly disillusioned and hungry for the very things the Gospel offers – a personal, loving relationship with the Creator, forgiveness of sins, and assurance of salvation. On 31 October in Khartoum (capital of Sudan), some 20,000 people attended, and over 5,000 responded, on the first night of a planned series of meetings with evangelist Sammy Tippit. However, with three militant Islamist groups threatening to make armed attacks on the stadium, the four later meetings were cancelled. Sudan’s Security Forces recommended this, rather than commit to protecting the Christians. Violence had forced the cancellation also of the Easter 2001 Celebrations in Khartoum (RLP 113). There is great spiritual hunger in Sudan amidst Islamic oppression. The Rev. Samuel Nyawelo Ador, director of evangelism for the All Sudan Council of Churches said, ‘They may be able to stop our meetings, but they cannot stop what God is doing in our country.’ Keep praying for Sudan and the Muslim world. Likewise in India, we are witnessing an amazing movement of the Dalits away from the oppressive grip of Hinduism, after centuries of severe discrimination and persecution. There are more than 250 million Dalits (literally translated as ‘broken people’ or untouchables) in this the lowest level of the caste system, totally segregated from society, treated as unclean and like slaves. In August a young couple were publicly hanged in their village for the crime of falling in love – he was a high caste Brahmin, she was low caste. Their families have been arrested for the double murder. On 4 November, some 50,000 Dalits publicly renounced Hinduism, a brave stand amidst rampaging militant Hindu nationalism. Whilst the Dalit leader, Ram Raj, is taking them into Buddhism, once they are truly out of Hinduism’s oppressive grip, they will be free equally to embrace Christ, as multitudes already have. In fact the hardline Hindu nationalist VHP describes the Dalits’ stand as part of a ‘Christian conspiracy’. Joseph D’Souza, President of the All India Christian Council, promised the Dalits that the Christian Church in India is there to be their friend and to serve them, e.g., with 200 new schools for Dalits. K P Yohannan, International Director of Gospel for Asia, assured them, ‘We love you with the love of Christ, unconditional love.’ PLEASE PRAY SPECIFICALLY FOR * God to answer our prayers and demolish the strongholds of this world (2 Cor 10:4), so that believers may worship in peace and witness in safety and so that the world’s oppressed millions may hear the Gospel of salvation and abundant life, and be free to receive it. * the Church under oppressive regimes to be encouraged by the fellowship of Christ so they would not lose hope (‘But those who suffer he delivers in their suffering; he speaks to them in their affliction.’ Job 36:15), but be strengthened and emboldened by the power of Holy Spirit to do God’s work on this earth. (‘But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses…to the ends of the earth.’ Acts 1:8). ‘Lord, I have heard of your fame; I stand in awe of your deeds O Lord. Renew them in our day, in our time make them known, in wrath remember mercy.’ (Habakkuk 3:2) SUMMARY TO USE IN BULLETINS UNABLE TO RUN THE WHOLE ARTICLE: IDOP 2001: ‘RENEW THEM IN OUR DAY…’ On the International Day of Prayer (IDOP) for the Persecuted Church believers unite to pray for those who suffer for their faith. But we are also concerned about the effects of religious repression on the world’s lost and oppressed millions as the Gospel of salvation and abundant life in Christ is withheld from them. In Khartoum, Sudan, Easter 2001 Celebrations were cancelled due to Islamic protest. On 31 October an evangelistic rally saw 20,000 attend and 5,000 respond to the invitation to receive Christ, but further meetings had to be cancelled due to threats of armed attacks by militant Islamist groups. India has more than 250 million Dalits (untouchables). They are deserting Hinduism en masse. The Church is ready to serve them and love them. God is doing amazing things in our day. Pray for ‘the strongholds to be demolished’. ‘Lord, I have heard of your fame; I stand in awe of your deeds O Lord. Renew them in our day, in our time make them known, in wrath remember mercy.’ (Habakkuk 3:2) Please pass this along to others with attribution to World Evangelical Fellowship (WEF) Religious Liberty The WEF Religious Liberty Commission sponsors this RL Prayer List to help individuals and groups pray specifically and regularly for religious liberty issues, and in particular to uphold the Church where it is suffering persecution. — Shalom! Rowland Croucher http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm

Response:

Join the International Day of Prayer Sunday, November 4, 2001 Here is a list of several International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church web sites. International Christian Concern http://persecution.org/idop/ International Day of Prayer (IDOP) http://www.idop.org/ Open Doors http://www.opendoorsusa.org/dayprayer.asp Prayer for the Persecuted Church http://www.persecutedchurch.org/ Voice of the Martyrs http://www.persecution.com/idop/ World Evangelical Alliance http://www.worldevangelical.org/dayprayr.html — Director, John Mark Ministries: counseling and consulting services for pastors, ex-pastors, church leaders and managers http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm (5400+ articles) http://priscillasfriends.org/ (Pastors’ wives)

Response:

Buddhism Hinduism

0 RESPONSES

Point Blank Questions, Mr. Clinton: Do You Think The Prophecies of Zechariah 12-14 Can Be Averted? Yes Or No?

Question:

Don’t the American people deserve AT LEAST to be told how you *understand* these Prophecies? My understanding is that the fufillment of these Prophecies CANNOT be averted. They can only be diminished in their intensity IF this civilization returns to the Moral Law and the Doctrinal Truths of not only the Torah, the Prophets, the Gospels and the Koran, but also the Eastern religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism. And what do you think the chances of THAT occurring are? Seriously. Michael Cecil (Daniel 12:1, Sura 2:98 of the Koran, Column XVII of the "Scroll of the War of the Sons of Light") Sarai/Sarah-Mohammed-Elizabeth Cecil (Daniel 12:13) web page at: http://www.geocities.com:80/Athens/Rhodes/7031/deadsea.html

Response:

most of the people in their pods would not be grateful about being awakened to the truth. numbness is the norm for them and they wouldn’t have it any other way. let them sleep. once they see the sleeper awakened they will follow just as they have in the past. peace shelley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t the American people deserve AT LEAST to be told how you *understand* these Prophecies? My understanding is that the fufillment of these Prophecies CANNOT be averted. They can only be diminished in their intensity IF this civilization returns to the Moral Law and the Doctrinal Truths of not only the Torah, the Prophets, the Gospels and the Koran, but also the Eastern religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism. And what do you think the chances of THAT occurring are? Seriously. Michael Cecil (Daniel 12:1, Sura 2:98 of the Koran, Column XVII of the "Scroll of the War of the Sons of Light") Sarai/Sarah-Mohammed-Elizabeth Cecil (Daniel 12:13) web page at: http://www.geocities.com:80/Athens/Rhodes/7031/deadsea.html

– Webpage: http://www.jps.net/femfacal/index.html

Response:

Buddhism Hinduism