Question:
> This may sound weird, and I’ve never been able to describe this accurately > to anyone – but here goes: during my hardest times, I lose sight of > everything and I don’t know who or what I am, and I don’t even know what a > person is or what it is to be a human being with a real connection to > others, and I feel like I don’t exist, or know what life is, or how I fit > in to life…it’s like I see the universe as a whole but I’m not attached > to any of it. > I wonder if this is what you mean, abandoned, or if you were referring > something more specific (for example you mentioned in another post that you > now question your gender). > And I wonder if anyone else can relate to this in any way. > Hannah
Hi, Hannah!! What you describe is the experiences I have had. In therapy, I learned that this is called "Numbing". It’s a kind of time-out for the emotions when one becomes overwhelmed by them. You often develop that in childhood for the same reasons and it beomes a habit. It is a very mild disassociative state, similar to a kind of self-hypnosis. As you get more familiar with feelings and perceptions of danger, these will become less necessary. In compassion and respect, Ted
Response:
Hi abandoned, my o my, a lot of topics here to discuss and lots of good questions, too. You must have been very busy 
. OK, I’ll try to keep up with 
. Some of your ideas are really interesting. Maybe I have to continue this another day, since I have lots of other things to deal with, right now and therefore I’m a bit stressed and do not have so much the time at the moment. However, here comes the first part: > designed brochures and sent out close to a hundred to small businesses with > a cover letter advertising my skills and stressed ‘inexpensive’ and > ‘personal attention’,
I’m sorry, if my former answer was somewhat misleading. I certainly do not think that you have not been diligent enough to apply for some other workplace or something like that. I guess, it was just sort of repeating the traditional survivor’s habit to hold up a flag with the words ‘Don’t give up! Try again!’ on it. And there was a deeper personal fear of mine behind it: When I encountered the situation that all of my applications were first positively accepted and then suddenly turned down due to some malicious phone calls of my superior, I considered my situation as completely hopeless and attempted suicide. Now, I am past that point and life goes on (some way or other). I found again something which I call ‘my old warrior’s spirit’. That is what kept me alive in the past, that is what keeps me alive in the present and that is what I intended to express. One more thought to your sentence I quoted above, though. I think that it makes people suspicious and may possibly destroy your chances if you stress yourself as ‘inexpensive’. It’s sounds a bit like saying: ‘I am not worth your money’. And another one of my thoughts is: Maybe you have overdone it? Perhaps the manager, who got your application, also discovered your advertisment or just saw some of your flyers? That may easily lead to the impression that you need that job desperately and to the conclusion that there might be something wrong with you. > i do not know about where you are, but the united states is in the greatest > recession that it has been in decades. all of the jobs are going overseas > to india, china, and other "cheap labor" countries. i offer my services at > rates close to $10 an hour (US) that could easily in a more open time would > get 80 to $100 an hour.
Try offering it for $20. I am serious. People sometimes think, the more they have to pay the better it is. Anyway, I would _not_ write your ‘prize’ in an application or onto your flyers. It doesn’t increase your job chances. > that is not why she left me. she had PTSD issues of her own along with > OCPD, OCD, Somatic Disorder all stemming from abuse. > she has lived for 40 years upstairs from her mother and has never left > home. that she had her own issues beyond my wanting to please her (which > did btw please her as she loved control) was clear.
People with PTSD often project. The same way as you saw some motherlike figure in her, she may have seen some other person in you. Maybe one of her earlier abusers. Maybe there were some issues that made her feel that the abusive situation of her childhood repeated itself again. So now she tries to make a stand and fight her earlier abuser (which she unfortunately projects into you). If it is that way, there is nothing you can do about that at the moment. Writing apologies won’t help in that situation (maybe her former abuser did the same? So that may even trigger her more). Stay out of her way and wait. Maybe she is now in PTSD mode. If you feel that it could be like that: Do not do anything that may frighten her. It takes a long time. Maybe she will discover after some time that you are indeed not one of her abusers and things will get better for both of you. > the lack of privacy, the bed checks, the monitoring is what was done to me > as a child as part of the normal day. mental hospitals trigger and they do > not understand, accept, or deal with this. they release me as ok and then > i go home and overdose, the last time a very serious overdose. > the nature of a mental hospital is monitoring. part of my trauma, a small > part, was monitoring and control. this is why my therapist is now > reluctant to place me into a hospital even though he knows that i am very > suicidal. i give him credit for at least that much.
Monitoring is an essential part of hospitals in general. Being a stationary patient triggers me a lot and that makes things much, much worse (regardless which injury, disorder or disease I am treated for there). A longer stay at hospital would kill me. I am _not_ joking, I am _not_ exaggerating here, I am _very_ serious: A longer stay in hospital would _kill_ me. People who disbelieve me at this point have never experienced the strength of a trigger to personal trauma. >>>as i do not want what i mostly believe to be idiots with medical >>>degrees touching that part of me unless i gain their trust. almost never >>>has full trust been given. >>I do not think of them as idiots. They are just confused, because they >>didn’t learn >>how to treat PTSD cases properly, that’s the main problem. They feel that >>you do not > there is something, at least in this country, called CME. continuing > medical education. it is required of all doctors to have. for someone in > the mental health field to not keep up with current trends borders on the > negligent.
How can they learn, if there are no qualified teachers? >> They feel that you do not trust them, so they do not trust you and because you feel that they do not trust you, you never start trusting them. It’s a vicious circle. In this case I think the psychiatrist has to do the first step towards more trust. > more than a first step imo. aren’t *they* supposed to be the helpers? the > professionals?
Sometimes I get the strange feeling that a lot of people are misunderstanding the function of a professional. There are two extrem positions: Some seem to worship them as the one and only source of healing. Others damn them as the source of bad memories and pain. What both sides have in common is that they unconsciously perceive them as some sort of superficial beeing. Something like a god (or devil) in white linen. Hey folks, can’t you see that they are only human??? The one and only healing comes from yourself! They cannot give put their hand on you and say: ‘May all your pain be gone’ and..whooosh..you are happy and healthy. And they cannot guess your thoughts either. They unfortunately have _also_ faults and disorders. Sometimes they may also be depressed, lazy, frightened, fury, confused and so on. They are HUMAN. >>No. The problem is their _education_. They are not trained to handle PTSD >>cases. That >>is what frightens them most. After a while they discover that you are not >>like all >>the other patients they have treated before. Even if they recognize that >>you are >>suffering from PTSD there is no manual how to treat PTSD patients. > as the expression goes "shit or get off the pot". then they should not > pretend that they can help us.
They are HUMAN. > there is also what i’d mentioned CME and other things available that could > enable them to learn about it. if i am expected to keep up with current > trends with my profession i should at least expect them to. if i make an > error a human life is not at stake. if they do, they are capable of > causing damage, and death.
Yes, I totally agree. You made a very good point there. Now, here is what I see as the problem: There are nearly _no_ qualified teachers! You stated earlier that ‘education is more than one gets in a classroom or books’ and I also totally agree on that. Better education, especially in how to treat PTSD, comes with experience and practice. People who suffer from PTSD search for help very rarely. So there aren’t so many clinical cases you could learn from as a medical student. If PTSD patients come to hospital at all they are there because of other symptoms like suicidality, eating disorder, borderline disorder or depression. >>Especially not >>complex-PTSD patients. That really scares them, cause they do not know >>what to do. >>They are scared of the consequences if you commit suicide because they >>treated you >>the wrong way. Because of their fear to make an error, they mistrust you, they > then they have no right being in the profession. > are they such "narcissists’ that they cannot admit a mistake to a patient > and by doing so perhaps admit their humanity which imo to a PTSD patient > would go a long way towards mutual understanding.
Good. You nailed it down! I’ll disregard the term ‘narcissists’ for a moment, because I think it’s not appropriate. I admit that I got the same impression at hospital. I even got a stronger impression of this with my former therapist. They have _huge_ problems to apologize for an error they made and that doesn’t help the therapeutic process at all. It hurts the patient and weakens the trust in the therapist. I recognized this problem especially with MDs. I do not know where this behaviour stems from. Maybe they just get used to the daily adoration of some patients and therefore feel themselves somewhat closer to god. Most of them (I do not generalize here) have problems to show or admit their humanity. I think there is also a description for that: ‘deformation professionelle’. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Psychiatrists often claim to recognize if someone will attempt suicide for >>a second >>time or not. In case of a PTSD patient it becomes a self-fullfilling >>prophecy. It >>depends on the psychiatrist. > yes, they are all individual. my therapist is taking a chance. i have > attempted suicide 5 times in the past 6 years, two of them with my being > taken to the hospital unconscious, one of them alone and unknown in which i > could have easily choked on my own vomit
… read more »
Response:
Hi Jenna, thanks for your reply. > I think the reluctance to link child abuse with ptsd comes from a > couple different things. > One, my god, we would have to really be accountable to the child and > the system has never made that a priority. > The priority there is to shuffle it through to someone else’s desk > because never is it given the proper funding or training. > Second, those very same people would claim that many survivors of > child abuse go on to lead pretty normal lifes, I even know some > survivors that would say that.
Before the confrontation with my superior, which resurfaced a lot of stuff in me, I would also have said, that I had lead a pretty normal life. Anyway the same is true for most war veterans. Not all of them suffer from ptsd. I think humans have some sort of inbuilt counting mechanisms. We can cope with one or two traumatic situations pretty well, but if there are too many of them or if they are repeated it’s simply too much to process or to suppress. Therfore, if you want to know who will suffer from ptsd and who might not, you cannot compare a sample of persons that experienced one identical traumatic incident. You have also to take into account their history of traumatization. > But sailing through life isn’t meant for us all and bam!, another > trauma happens. > Then it is not just about that trauma, it has resurfaced all the old > stuff too.
I’ll second that. > Also I know many professionals that would argue that it is not the > ptsd that is hardest to treat in these cases but the personality > disorders that cause so many problems in social interactions.
Which one was first: The hen or the egg? > I believe a study was even done on vets who suffered from complex ptsd > that pointed out that there were predisposing factors in place before > combat was ever experienced.
See my comment above. Anyway I am careful with these types of studies. I think there is also some influence of government in it: ‘No we didn’t cause our soldiers to have psychological problems…they had _predisposing_ factors that caused their problems!’ > Not a good day to be discussing this for me. > A 4 year old boy was pulled out of a foster home, dead. > His 290 lb. foster mother beat him to death. > His last visit to his therapist she reported he showed up with two > black eyes and a sore arm. > She reported it to the child’s caseworkers. > The caseworkers did nothing.
Unfortunately, by most people children are still seen as the property of their parents 
nv
Response:
Hi hopeful one, > Well, this is not quite what I have been led to believe. If I am in error, > I apologize.
You don’t need to apologize for anything. It’s me. I tend to memorize a lot of facts and sometimes they just rush out of me and people become buried under them, sorry. Thanks for writing, nv
Response:
Hannah, I am a buddhist and much of buddhism deals with just what you have described. The more we honestly question who and what we are, the more we come to realize it is a question with no answer. This can be liberating and frightening at the same time. I don’t have anything sage to offer on it, though… just wanted you to know that I think I *can* relate to what you’re saying here. Hopeful one "Hannah" <blha…@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:blhage8-ya02408000R1305031350350001@news.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <8540522ca921c12cd644bc32cc7f0…@remailer.frell.eu.org>, > abandoned <fr…@rodent.frell.eu.org> wrote: > > i was recently asked by a counselor at a women’s center what my "therapy > > goals" were. i honestly do not know at this time other than to find out > > who and WHAT i am. the latter is something that most if not all here do > > not have to contend with. > I’ve been thinking about this for a few days now. Trying to find out who > and what I am is something I’ve been working on for a long time. > This may sound weird, and I’ve never been able to describe this accurately > to anyone – but here goes: during my hardest times, I lose sight of > everything and I don’t know who or what I am, and I don’t even know what a > person is or what it is to be a human being with a real connection to > others, and I feel like I don’t exist, or know what life is, or how I fit > in to life…it’s like I see the universe as a whole but I’m not attached > to any of it. > I wonder if this is what you mean, abandoned, or if you were referring > something more specific (for example you mentioned in another post that you > now question your gender). > And I wonder if anyone else can relate to this in any way. > Hannah
Response:
Hi Hannah! > I’ve been thinking about this for a few days now. Trying to find out > who and what I am is something I’ve been working on for a long time.
Actually, I gave up on this one. My therapist suggested that I listen to what others say about me and accept, for the most part, that this is who I am. Of course, there is always the nasty answer but generally I don’t ask nasty folks who they see me as. YMMV Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy
Response:
In article <f21bf841a7247285ea68c0b9067e7…@remailer.frell.eu.org>, abandoned <fr…@rodent.frell.eu.org> wrote:
Hi abandoned, Thanks for clarifying what you meant. I wasn’t sure which of the two meanings you were describing, but I’m clearer on that now. > maybe you mean by "what you are" has to do with personality, interests, or > a host of other things that generally overlay, and completely bypass the > physical sex that you are.
Actually, that wasn’t what I meant, but that’s okay – I’ve never been very good at articulating what I do mean regarding this matter. > i understand you completely and also have those feelings but they are > separate from "what sex am i?" i apologize for hammering away at that > point.
No need to apologize at all – I can relate to the frustration of trying to explain what I am about and what I mean, but having it misinterpreted. > i do know that separation from the rest of the world that you are > feeling though. over the past six months i’ve lost touch with anything > previously interested in. there is interest in nothing. i could care less > if something is finished or not, someone calls or not. the word "life" is > something that i used to be involved in but i’m not sure why or how or if i > even care to bother with any of it again. > a personality without a person attached to it. many personalities (who all > know each other and are aware of each other) but no single identity for > them to attach to.
It’s a hard thing to negotiate. > yes but i’m unsure if it’s gender i question or sex (they are different) > in the average person (well let’s say 99% of the population?) gender and > sex pretty much align and they don’t think much about it at all. i know > that sexually (physically) i’m female because of some surgical thing done > what seems like hundreds of years ago but the gender thing is now confusing > me and am afraid that this could lead to something pretty horrible such as > "i made a mistake 35 years ago". that would not be a good thing to have to > deal with.
I can only imagine how overwhelming that would be. I really wish you well. Hannah
Response:
In article <b9rnka$mhdj…@ID-159112.news.dfncis.de>, "hopeful one" <hopefu…@excite.com> wrote: > Hannah, I am a buddhist and much of buddhism deals with just what you have > described. The more we honestly question who and what we are, the more we > come to realize it is a question with no answer. This can be liberating and > frightening at the same time. > I don’t have anything sage to offer on it, though… just wanted you to know > that I think I *can* relate to what you’re saying here. > Hopeful one
Thanks so much for your post – that’s never occurred to me before, but it’s certainly closest thing there is to describing it. It helps a lot to be able to put it into context, thank you. Your post reminds me – there are times I feel almost privileged to be able to "see" the universe. Again, I can’t find the words, but there almost aren’t supposed to be any, if that makes any sense. Hannah
Response:
In article <Xns937ABBBAF654Fkipcocoxinvalid…@68.1.17.6>, Nancy <ki…@coxinvalid.net> wrote:
Hi Nancy! > Actually, I gave up on this one. My therapist suggested that I listen to > what others say about me and accept, for the most part, that this is who I > am. Of course, there is always the nasty answer but generally I don’t ask > nasty folks who they see me as.
That makes a lot of sense. In a slightly different take on this, I sometimes "borrow" from someone else (for example, their belief that I am a good person and I am worth knowing) until I can incorporate it for myself. Thanks much for your post. Hannah
Response:
OK Hannah! >> Actually, I gave up on this one. My therapist suggested that I >> listen to what others say about me and accept, for the most part, >> that this is who I am. Of course, there is always the nasty answer >> but generally I don’t ask nasty folks who they see me as. > That makes a lot of sense. In a slightly different take on this, I > sometimes "borrow" from someone else (for example, their belief that I > am a good person and I am worth knowing) until I can incorporate it > for myself.
Your last point is what made me convinced of the value of 12 Stepping. The different-than-I-grew-up-with set of beliefs, values and attitudes gave me something to hang on to when I started into PTSD recovering. The fact that the 12 Steps had helped a lot of folks before me made a difference to me: not quite so much venturing out on the shifting sands. YMMV Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy
Response:
"abandoned" <fr…@rodent.frell.eu.org> wrote in message
news:27c8a0c4c677971afdcf4bfeb6d139e7@remailer.frell.eu.org… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway. > No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender. > ——————————————————– > >Ah… I read through your post again. > >I think the confusion is with the use of the terms "PTSD" and "Complex > >PTSD". I should clarify that what I was saying in my original post is that > >I believe the concept of "Complex PTSD" as applied to people with abusive > >childhoods is a relatively new thing. > i believe it was Judith Herman who first used the term complex PTSD and she > designated it for those who experienced prolonged trauma, not just a single > event but one that continued over a long period of time. > relatively new is about 15 years old.
Yes, I think you are right on both counts. I don’t have her book at hand, though I do have it (another brilliant book, BTW), so I didn’t want to get date specific. But if memory serves (and it often doesn’t these days) she published in the early nineties. Hopeful one
Response:
"abandoned" <fr…@rodent.frell.eu.org> wrote in message
news:5d1126cbe6d1a19c6cf0cd479c1613c6@remailer.frell.eu.org… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway. > No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender. > ——————————————————– > >Second, those very same people would claim that many survivors of > >child abuse go on to lead pretty normal lifes, I even know some > >survivors that would say that. > >But sailing through life isn’t meant for us all and bam!, another > >trauma happens. > i led a very "normal" life, other than changing sex which was really a > breeze for me in my early-mid 20’s. it wasn’t until age 50 that all of it > started to hit the fan. up until then i would have been considered > mentally well adjusted. > i don’t believe that abused children ever lead "normal" lives. it always > catches up. > >Also I know many professionals that would argue that it is not the > >ptsd that is hardest to treat in these cases but the personality > >disorders that cause so many problems in social interactions. > the term "personality disorder" should be banned from usage. it is based > upon a "bad personality" issue and is nothing but blame the victim in > disguise. > there is no such thing as a "peraonality disorder". it’s a cop out of a > real diagnosis that is usually trauma and therefore PTSD related.
I don’t think that I believe this, entirely, though I do see what you are saying and I actually agree with it in part. I was abused by people who were highly narcissistic. There was clearly something very wrong with them. Their behavior was well over a line where cruelty was the norm and empathy was nonexistent. That’s disordered. However, I am sure their behavior patterns were most likely the result of having been abused themselves. As a PTSDer, I understand that there can be a fine line between my own reactive behaviors and the behaviors we think of when we talk about personality disorders. It’s a mind twisting issue for me, sometimes. I know that I monitor myself, my own actions and triggered reactions, to try to minimize the level of acting out that I do. I think perhaps the difference between me and them is that they couldn’t be bothered, and couldn’t stop blaming the world long enough to look inside and fix the problems within. Hopeful One
Response:
"abandoned" <fr…@rodent.frell.eu.org> wrote in message
news:d2639607becf1ca334f78e3e1735c054@remailer.frell.eu.org… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway. > No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender. > ——————————————————– > >> the term "personality disorder" should be banned from usage. it is based > >> upon a "bad personality" issue and is nothing but blame the victim in > >> disguise. > >> there is no such thing as a "peraonality disorder". it’s a cop out of a > >> real diagnosis that is usually trauma and therefore PTSD related. > >I don’t think that I believe this, entirely, though I do see what you are > >saying and I actually agree with it in part. > what i object to is the usage of the word "personality". when combined > with "disorder" (personality equates to "person") my feeling is that it > implies that there is something inherently wrong with the person. there is > no other person (the abuser that caused this survivor way of thinking) > involved but the victim. that is what bothers me about that term.
I understand, and I agree that there is a negative association as you describe. And it shouldn’t be so, especially not when it interferes with getting help to those people who are honestly working to make sense out of their lives. > >I was abused by people who were highly narcissistic. There was clearly > >something very wrong with them. Their behavior was well over a line where > >cruelty was the norm and empathy was nonexistent. That’s disordered. > i agree. but why call narcissim a personality disorder? for that matter > why not call PTSD a personality disorder since many of the manifestations > of it affect how we relate to other people as well as ourselves?
I think the jury is still out on this. I suspect over the next ten years we’re going to see more and more linkage back to PTSD among people who show behaviors currently associated with what we now think of as "personality disorders". Perhaps through effective treatment of PTSD, some of these other issues can be resolved. It will be interesting to see what comes of this over the next few years. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >However, I am sure their behavior patterns were most likely the result of > >having been abused themselves. As a PTSDer, I understand that there can be > >a fine line between my own reactive behaviors and the behaviors we think of > >when we talk about personality disorders. It’s a mind twisting issue for > >me, sometimes. > my last hospitalization was in a "borderline" unit. this was a major > hospital that is probably internationally known. they had three units; one > for borderlines, one for eating disorders, and one for depression. about > 90% of the people in my unit were women and all of them suffered some sort > of abuse. we all shared that but why was the abuse never addressed to any > of us? the environment was one of control and any group therapy was > directed towards changing our behavior (which is probably one of the things > that our abusers did to us in the first place, thus revictimization and > invalidation). the source of why we are like we are is never addressed.
I’ve never been hospitalized but I believe what you’re saying. I think that there is a real crisis in mental health care today, esp. in the US. If you don’t fall into one of the neat categories that are easily treated with drugs, they truthfully don’t want to deal with you. As I said, it’s out of fashion to address childhood trauma these days. > >I know that I monitor myself, my own actions and triggered reactions, to try > >to minimize the level of acting out that I do. I think perhaps the > >difference between me and them is that they couldn’t be bothered, and > >couldn’t stop blaming the world long enough to look inside and fix the > >problems within. > maybe it’s not that "they couldn’t be bothered" but that they have no idea > of what they are doing and/or have not found a way to monitor themselves.
Well, one sought mental health care, but from what I could see it was mainly for validation and when the therapist got close to the real issues this person would split and find a new therapist. Another was referred for mental health care but wouldn’t go, insisting there was nothing wrong with him, all the while scapegoating others in the family. I don’t know how to help a person such as this. > i’d also like to add that maybe some of their "blaming the world" is > justified. i’m not saying that adverse reactions to other people is > justified, but maybe their blaming is.
I’ve learned that blaming never fixes anything. It’s just something to attach myself to that keeps me distracted and doesn’t allow me to get close to the issue that I need to address. For all the harm that anyone has done me, it’s only *me* living in here- no one else. The bottom line is if I want to live a relatively good life, it’s up to me to sort out how. Blaming someone for something– right or wrong– never did that for me. Of course, I’ve had to process a lot of anger in order to not walk around bitter. I believe it can be done. But that’s my own take on it and, of course, everyone has their own way of making life work out for them. > i grew up monitored and controlled so that in itself is a trigger for me > (as are hospitalizations). i try to not see what i do now so much as > "monitoring" but as respecting a boundary.
That’s actually a very good way of putting it. Monitored was, perhaps, too strong a word. I also grew up controlled and I can see the triggering potential in this. What I’m referring to is more like a voluntary acceptance of responsibility for my own behavior– an acceptance that I don’t think my abusers ever thought of or wanted to engage in. It helps me live with others in a way that’s mutually respectful and positively reinforcing. hopeful one
Response:
In article <8540522ca921c12cd644bc32cc7f0…@remailer.frell.eu.org>, abandoned <fr…@rodent.frell.eu.org> wrote: > i was recently asked by a counselor at a women’s center what my "therapy > goals" were. i honestly do not know at this time other than to find out > who and WHAT i am. the latter is something that most if not all here do > not have to contend with.
I’ve been thinking about this for a few days now. Trying to find out who and what I am is something I’ve been working on for a long time. This may sound weird, and I’ve never been able to describe this accurately to anyone – but here goes: during my hardest times, I lose sight of everything and I don’t know who or what I am, and I don’t even know what a person is or what it is to be a human being with a real connection to others, and I feel like I don’t exist, or know what life is, or how I fit in to life…it’s like I see the universe as a whole but I’m not attached to any of it. I wonder if this is what you mean, abandoned, or if you were referring something more specific (for example you mentioned in another post that you now question your gender). And I wonder if anyone else can relate to this in any way. Hannah
Response:
I think the reluctance to link child abuse with ptsd comes from a couple different things. One, my god, we would have to really be accountable to the child and the system has never made that a priority. The priority there is to shuffle it through to someone else’s desk because never is it given the proper funding or training. Second, those very same people would claim that many survivors of child abuse go on to lead pretty normal lifes, I even know some survivors that would say that. But sailing through life isn’t meant for us all and bam!, another trauma happens. Then it is not just about that trauma, it has resurfaced all the old stuff too. Also I know many professionals that would argue that it is not the ptsd that is hardest to treat in these cases but the personality disorders that cause so many problems in social interactions. I believe a study was even done on vets who suffered from complex ptsd that pointed out that there were predisposing factors in place before combat was ever experienced. Not a good day to be discussing this for me. A 4 year old boy was pulled out of a foster home, dead. His 290 lb. foster mother beat him to death. His last visit to his therapist she reported he showed up with two black eyes and a sore arm. She reported it to the child’s caseworkers. The caseworkers did nothing.
Response:
Ah… I read through your post again. I think the confusion is with the use of the terms "PTSD" and "Complex PTSD". I should clarify that what I was saying in my original post is that I believe the concept of "Complex PTSD" as applied to people with abusive childhoods is a relatively new thing. PTSD (with various labels) has been known for a relatively long time, yes. That abuse in childhood also has a negative effect has also been known for a long time, though I should point out that treating childhood trauma through talk therapy is a concept that’s no longer in fashion in the US among medical practicioners. Chemical imbalance is pretty much what psychiatrists treat nowadays in this country. I believe you are in Europe, so you may have an advantage over me as I am in the US. What the information I’ve read has consistently told me is that for a diagnosis of "PTSD" to be made, a key criterion is some sort of traumatic event. Criterion A from the DSM-IV is as follows: – You have been exposed to a traumatic event involving actual or threatened death of injury, during which you respond with panic, horror, and feelings of helplessness. It can be argued (and I think successfully) that an abusive childhood is one long traumatic event which fits this definition. But I don’t believe the psychiatric community, in general, accepted that definition of trauma until very recently, at least not when it came to making a diagnosis of PTSD. This is a fine point with me because my childhood, though traumatic, did not include a lot of physical violence. That makes it hard to think of any one, acute event in my past as fitting the criterion– it was more a state of constant terror. I’m not saying– at all– that people who were abused as children don’t "qualify" as PTSDers… quite the contrary. I’m sure we do. All I’m saying is that until recently I think the *psychiatric community* in general didn’t view childhood abuse as a traumatic event, and I don’t think diagnoses of PTSD were common among abused children, though there are always some insightful practicioners out there who are willing to go outside the lines, as with stargazer. Again, I may be wrong, and that’s okay. I appreciate the opportunity to learn more. This is what I’ve been led to believe, so far, through my own reading. Hopeful one "hopeful one" <hopefu…@excite.com> wrote in message
news:b9pb2c$lovt4$1@ID-159112.news.dfncis.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, this is not quite what I have been led to believe. If I am in error, > I apologize. > Hopeful One > "noctuvigila" <noctuvig…@arcor.de> wrote in message > news:3EC01BE6.5030408@arcor.de… > > Hi hopeful one, > > > Just to clarify something which may be of interest to both of you, a > > > diagnosis of PTSD for people with abusive upbringings was very rare > until > > > the last few years. > > The traumatic influence of abusive childhood experiences is known since at > leat > > somewhat around 1880 (or 1890?) when Charcot first discovered that the > strange > > behaviour of his female patients was linked with abusive situations during > childhood. > > More research in this area was done by Sigmund Freud around 1920 who also > developed > > the first kind of treatment for this disorder. Since 1980 (more than 20 > years ago!) > > the term ‘PTSD’ is used in international classification systems such as > ICD 9 / DSM > > III. Since then it was possible to diagnose patients with the term PTSD. > > Today’s diagnostic criteria for PTSD and other disorders, as they can be > found on the > > internet, follow the DSM IV / ICD 10 which was published in 1993. There > are some > > slight differences between the DSM IV and the ICD 10 concerning PTSD. > Nevertheless, > > abusive issues such as rape or torture, are also mentioned there for > causing PTSD. > > The term ‘complex’ PTSD was already used in 1993 in scientific papers, > although ICD > > and DSM do not distinguish between ‘complex’ and ‘normal’ PTSD. Except of > the > > timescale the symptoms are the same anyway. > > > Unless this is recently changed, I think that the > > > official diagnostic criteria for PTSD still do not allow for such a > > > diagnosis. > > They do since 1980. > > > It’s probably too much to expect that any psychiatric > > > professional practicing would have had the training and education in > school > > > allowing him or her to make such a diagnosis with ease or confidence. > > I would like to stress again that I do not blame the individual > psychiatrists, but > > the _educational system_. I think more than 20 years are enough to update > the > > educational training of today’s psychiatrists! And yes, I think the > description of > > the symptoms in ICD and DSM is clear enough to _suspect_ a PTSD incident > very early. > > Furthermore one has to keep in mind that traumatic reactions due to > childhood abuse > > have been known in psychiatry for over 100 years. I don’t care whether > it’s called > > PTSD, hysteria, neurosis or somewhat else. Names are unimportant. > Treatment comes first! > > I do not refer here to my case. I didn’t tell these 3 Pdocs about my > childhood. And > > they didn’t ask more then 3 or 4 questions about it (I didn’t know back > then that > > this could be important). There were only my symptoms. I told them about > my sleeping > > difficulties, repeated and intrusive memories…they never asked about my > dreams or > > what these memories were about. However, I do not blame them for not > recognizing the > > deeper meanings of my symptoms. I didn’t feel secure at hospital and maybe > I would > > not have told them anyway in this environment. The treatment of other > medical > > personal (except these 3 docs) during my brief stay and the terrible > environment is > > what I could blame the hospital for. > > Yeah, I state _again_ that in my opinion complex PTSD is difficult to > diagnose. > > Especially because for complex PTSD patients the real ’cause’ for the > actual symptoms > > is buried under ‘the trigger’ (which was in my case my superior). > Furthermore the > > time scale is confusing. Usually PTSD should be diagnosed if the symptoms > appear 6 > > months or less after the incident. But it is also stated in the diagnostic > criteria > > that a later onset of PTSD is possible in some cases. So you can diagnose > it either way. > > But which incident do you count for your timescale? The trigger or the > original > > event? The timescale of six months is fine with the trigger event. But the > trigger > > itself is not life-threatening, my childhood was. If it wouldn’t have been > for the > > trigger, I may not have attempted suicide. And on the other hand, if there > hadn’t > > been the childhood abuse I wouldn’t have attempted suicide either. So both > incidents > > are closely linked together, see? > > > My own PTSD was diagnosed about ten years ago by a psychiatrist who was, > > > himself, a combat veteran and also had PTSD. He knew the symptoms, saw > them > > > clearly in my condition, but even with all that he was certain that I > must > > > have suppressed the memory of some single life-threatening event > somewhere > > > in my past. I don’t think he would have been permitted to make such a > > > diagnosis without this hypothesis. > > Well, there was more than one life-threatening event during my past. But > leave alone > > my personal case. By definition it is sufficient to have WATCHED a > life-threatening > > event in order to diagnose PTSD. And furthermore it doesn’t necessarily > have to be > > ‘life’-threatening. > > > The concept of Complex PTSD as a disorder in its own right is a rather > > > recent one. There is still a lot of work to be done in this area. > > Depends on how many decades you define as ‘recent’, I’d say. > > nv
Response:
Well, this is not quite what I have been led to believe. If I am in error, I apologize. Hopeful One "noctuvigila" <noctuvig…@arcor.de> wrote in message
news:3EC01BE6.5030408@arcor.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi hopeful one, > > Just to clarify something which may be of interest to both of you, a > > diagnosis of PTSD for people with abusive upbringings was very rare until > > the last few years. > The traumatic influence of abusive childhood experiences is known since at leat > somewhat around 1880 (or 1890?) when Charcot first discovered that the strange > behaviour of his female patients was linked with abusive situations during childhood. > More research in this area was done by Sigmund Freud around 1920 who also developed > the first kind of treatment for this disorder. Since 1980 (more than 20 years ago!) > the term ‘PTSD’ is used in international classification systems such as ICD 9 / DSM > III. Since then it was possible to diagnose patients with the term PTSD. > Today’s diagnostic criteria for PTSD and other disorders, as they can be found on the > internet, follow the DSM IV / ICD 10 which was published in 1993. There are some > slight differences between the DSM IV and the ICD 10 concerning PTSD. Nevertheless, > abusive issues such as rape or torture, are also mentioned there for causing PTSD. > The term ‘complex’ PTSD was already used in 1993 in scientific papers, although ICD > and DSM do not distinguish between ‘complex’ and ‘normal’ PTSD. Except of the > timescale the symptoms are the same anyway. > > Unless this is recently changed, I think that the > > official diagnostic criteria for PTSD still do not allow for such a > > diagnosis. > They do since 1980. > > It’s probably too much to expect that any psychiatric > > professional practicing would have had the training and education in school > > allowing him or her to make such a diagnosis with ease or confidence. > I would like to stress again that I do not blame the individual psychiatrists, but > the _educational system_. I think more than 20 years are enough to update the > educational training of today’s psychiatrists! And yes, I think the description of > the symptoms in ICD and DSM is clear enough to _suspect_ a PTSD incident very early. > Furthermore one has to keep in mind that traumatic reactions due to childhood abuse > have been known in psychiatry for over 100 years. I don’t care whether it’s called > PTSD, hysteria, neurosis or somewhat else. Names are unimportant.
Treatment comes first! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I do not refer here to my case. I didn’t tell these 3 Pdocs about my childhood. And > they didn’t ask more then 3 or 4 questions about it (I didn’t know back then that > this could be important). There were only my symptoms. I told them about my sleeping > difficulties, repeated and intrusive memories…they never asked about my dreams or > what these memories were about. However, I do not blame them for not recognizing the > deeper meanings of my symptoms. I didn’t feel secure at hospital and maybe I would > not have told them anyway in this environment. The treatment of other medical > personal (except these 3 docs) during my brief stay and the terrible environment is > what I could blame the hospital for. > Yeah, I state _again_ that in my opinion complex PTSD is difficult to diagnose. > Especially because for complex PTSD patients the real ’cause’ for the actual symptoms > is buried under ‘the trigger’ (which was in my case my superior). Furthermore the > time scale is confusing. Usually PTSD should be diagnosed if the symptoms appear 6 > months or less after the incident. But it is also stated in the diagnostic criteria > that a later onset of PTSD is possible in some cases. So you can diagnose it either way. > But which incident do you count for your timescale? The trigger or the original > event? The timescale of six months is fine with the trigger event. But the trigger > itself is not life-threatening, my childhood was. If it wouldn’t have been for the > trigger, I may not have attempted suicide. And on the other hand, if there hadn’t > been the childhood abuse I wouldn’t have attempted suicide either. So both incidents > are closely linked together, see? > > My own PTSD was diagnosed about ten years ago by a psychiatrist who was, > > himself, a combat veteran and also had PTSD. He knew the symptoms, saw them > > clearly in my condition, but even with all that he was certain that I must > > have suppressed the memory of some single life-threatening event somewhere > > in my past. I don’t think he would have been permitted to make such a > > diagnosis without this hypothesis. > Well, there was more than one life-threatening event during my past. But leave alone > my personal case. By definition it is sufficient to have WATCHED a life-threatening > event in order to diagnose PTSD. And furthermore it doesn’t necessarily have to be > ‘life’-threatening. > > The concept of Complex PTSD as a disorder in its own right is a rather > > recent one. There is still a lot of work to be done in this area. > Depends on how many decades you define as ‘recent’, I’d say. > nv
Response:
"noctuvigila" <noctuvig…@arcor.de> wrote in message
news:3EBEE48D.7080204@arcor.de… > > as i do not want what i mostly believe to be idiots with medical > > degrees touching that part of me unless i gain their trust. almost never > > has full trust been given. > I do not think of them as idiots. They are just confused, because they didn’t learn > how to treat PTSD cases properly, that’s the main problem.
Just to clarify something which may be of interest to both of you, a diagnosis of PTSD for people with abusive upbringings was very rare until the last few years. Unless this is recently changed, I think that the official diagnostic criteria for PTSD still do not allow for such a diagnosis. It’s probably too much to expect that any psychiatric professional practicing would have had the training and education in school allowing him or her to make such a diagnosis with ease or confidence. My own PTSD was diagnosed about ten years ago by a psychiatrist who was, himself, a combat veteran and also had PTSD. He knew the symptoms, saw them clearly in my condition, but even with all that he was certain that I must have suppressed the memory of some single life-threatening event somewhere in my past. I don’t think he would have been permitted to make such a diagnosis without this hypothesis. The concept of Complex PTSD as a disorder in its own right is a rather recent one. There is still a lot of work to be done in this area. Hopeful One
Response:
"hopeful one" <hopefu…@excite.com> wrote in message
news:b9o797$l8orm$1@ID-159112.news.dfncis.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "noctuvigila" <noctuvig…@arcor.de> wrote in message > news:3EBEE48D.7080204@arcor.de… > > > as i do not want what i mostly believe to be idiots with medical > > > degrees touching that part of me unless i gain their trust. almost > never > > > has full trust been given. > > I do not think of them as idiots. They are just confused, because they > didn’t learn > > how to treat PTSD cases properly, that’s the main problem. > Just to clarify something which may be of interest to both of you, a > diagnosis of PTSD for people with abusive upbringings was very rare until > the last few years. Unless this is recently changed, I think that the > official diagnostic criteria for PTSD still do not allow for such a > diagnosis. It’s probably too much to expect that any psychiatric > professional practicing would have had the training and education in school > allowing him or her to make such a diagnosis with ease or confidence. > My own PTSD was diagnosed about ten years ago by a psychiatrist who was, > himself, a combat veteran and also had PTSD. He knew the symptoms, saw them > clearly in my condition, but even with all that he was certain that I must > have suppressed the memory of some single life-threatening event somewhere > in my past. I don’t think he would have been permitted to make such a > diagnosis without this hypothesis. > The concept of Complex PTSD as a disorder in its own right is a rather > recent one. There is still a lot of work to be done in this area. > Hopeful One
I must have had a good psychologist because my diagnosis as PTSD came over 15 yrs. ago, along with Major Depression and later DID. I remember my psychologist said that living in an abusive situation for as long as I did was like emerging from a concentration camp, or something like that. stargazer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Hi hopeful one, > Just to clarify something which may be of interest to both of you, a > diagnosis of PTSD for people with abusive upbringings was very rare until > the last few years.
The traumatic influence of abusive childhood experiences is known since at leat somewhat around 1880 (or 1890?) when Charcot first discovered that the strange behaviour of his female patients was linked with abusive situations during childhood. More research in this area was done by Sigmund Freud around 1920 who also developed the first kind of treatment for this disorder. Since 1980 (more than 20 years ago!) the term ‘PTSD’ is used in international classification systems such as ICD 9 / DSM III. Since then it was possible to diagnose patients with the term PTSD. Today’s diagnostic criteria for PTSD and other disorders, as they can be found on the internet, follow the DSM IV / ICD 10 which was published in 1993. There are some slight differences between the DSM IV and the ICD 10 concerning PTSD. Nevertheless, abusive issues such as rape or torture, are also mentioned there for causing PTSD. The term ‘complex’ PTSD was already used in 1993 in scientific papers, although ICD and DSM do not distinguish between ‘complex’ and ‘normal’ PTSD. Except of the timescale the symptoms are the same anyway. > Unless this is recently changed, I think that the > official diagnostic criteria for PTSD still do not allow for such a > diagnosis.
They do since 1980. > It’s probably too much to expect that any psychiatric > professional practicing would have had the training and education in school > allowing him or her to make such a diagnosis with ease or confidence.
I would like to stress again that I do not blame the individual psychiatrists, but the _educational system_. I think more than 20 years are enough to update the educational training of today’s psychiatrists! And yes, I think the description of the symptoms in ICD and DSM is clear enough to _suspect_ a PTSD incident very early. Furthermore one has to keep in mind that traumatic reactions due to childhood abuse have been known in psychiatry for over 100 years. I don’t care whether it’s called PTSD, hysteria, neurosis or somewhat else. Names are unimportant. Treatment comes first! I do not refer here to my case. I didn’t tell these 3 Pdocs about my childhood. And they didn’t ask more then 3 or 4 questions about it (I didn’t know back then that this could be important). There were only my symptoms. I told them about my sleeping difficulties, repeated and intrusive memories…they never asked about my dreams or what these memories were about. However, I do not blame them for not recognizing the deeper meanings of my symptoms. I didn’t feel secure at hospital and maybe I would not have told them anyway in this environment. The treatment of other medical personal (except these 3 docs) during my brief stay and the terrible environment is what I could blame the hospital for. Yeah, I state _again_ that in my opinion complex PTSD is difficult to diagnose. Especially because for complex PTSD patients the real ’cause’ for the actual symptoms is buried under ‘the trigger’ (which was in my case my superior). Furthermore the time scale is confusing. Usually PTSD should be diagnosed if the symptoms appear 6 months or less after the incident. But it is also stated in the diagnostic criteria that a later onset of PTSD is possible in some cases. So you can diagnose it either way. But which incident do you count for your timescale? The trigger or the original event? The timescale of six months is fine with the trigger event. But the trigger itself is not life-threatening, my childhood was. If it wouldn’t have been for the trigger, I may not have attempted suicide. And on the other hand, if there hadn’t been the childhood abuse I wouldn’t have attempted suicide either. So both incidents are closely linked together, see? > My own PTSD was diagnosed about ten years ago by a psychiatrist who was, > himself, a combat veteran and also had PTSD. He knew the symptoms, saw them > clearly in my condition, but even with all that he was certain that I must > have suppressed the memory of some single life-threatening event somewhere > in my past. I don’t think he would have been permitted to make such a > diagnosis without this hypothesis.
Well, there was more than one life-threatening event during my past. But leave alone my personal case. By definition it is sufficient to have WATCHED a life-threatening event in order to diagnose PTSD. And furthermore it doesn’t necessarily have to be ‘life’-threatening. > The concept of Complex PTSD as a disorder in its own right is a rather > recent one. There is still a lot of work to be done in this area.
Depends on how many decades you define as ‘recent’, I’d say. nv
Response:
Hi abandoned! Just reading the mail, here. > i thank people for everything
You might want to think about this one, a little. I used to do the same because I was certain that being particularly nice to others would gain me some validity. It didn’t work for me … finally, about 3 years ago I started noticing that other drivers would stop for my vehicle at the appropriate times … that gave me some validity! I started to reply to your last post by snipping and reading the snips in order to understand what you are writing. I gave up. The following is what I’ve read as a your current set of themes: judgement by you of others’ before they can judge you blaming others (especially psychiatric professionals) for not being able to read your thoughts controling and being controlled by others for love and emotional support manipulation of others for your own needs denial of your own fears Lt me immediately state that I am not a professional nor practicing psychiatry on this ng. IME these are rather typical PTSD protective coloration. Despite your protestations to the contrary, I have these same character defects with a different set of traumas. My recovering is finding a more acceptable (to me) set of character attributes, one step at a time, one day or hour or minute at a time. YMMV I assume that you want to change at least one of these attributes and that you are on this ng to get some relief from them, by sharing and learning, during this changing process. If you would concentrate on the one character attribute you are willing to change, I would be more able to respond to your writings. Chaos is a big part of PTSD; I no longer encourage chaos in my life. YMMV Personally, I have no troubles with your use of an anonymous remailer. Protecting oneself from stalkers and flamers is the usual reason one uses anonymous remailers. Being aware that no one else could harm me more than I have unwittingly harmed myself in the past disinclined me to using anonymous remailers, but not everyone makes the same choices. :/ Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy
Response:
Hi abandoned, > i’m older, little education, and there is no other work available. i look. > there is nothing. i have tried very hard. my work history is very poor, > nothing lasts long. Depends mostly what you are looking for and where. It isn’t that much easier if you are younger, hold a university degree from a well-known university with good marks and have (unfortunately) a work history with an insidious and narcisstic superior. Take my word for that. Anyway, I stumbled over your expression ‘have tried’. Getting a job takes time. Getting a good job takes more time. So try AGAIN. I don’t know much about the American system, but there are certainly more possibilities than looking at the newspapers or advertisments to get a job. Maybe some other people around here can give you some hints how to apply best for a job and where to look for? > i have not thought of that. it is an idea but i think that if i wind up > staying more and suffering at this job (it is part time to supplement > disability income) taking on the same middle name as my boss would bring up > problems as my past is something that no one there knows You don’t have to tell them. For example if your initials are A.C. they were then A.B.C. no one has to know exactly what the B. stands for. You just tell them this name was given to you by your parents…Well, after all, parents DO have strange ideas sometimes, why should someone bother about your name? Blame it on your parents. > btw it is not my "real" name anymore than the name i took legally over 3 > decades ago is my real name. Then use it as your pseudonym. Actors, writers and musicians sometimes have strange ideas for their stage names, too. > i don’t know my "personalities". none of them are me. i have many personae > but am aware of all of them and all of them are convincing to other people > inasmuch as they believe that that is "me". none of them are. > i disagree with the anticipated comment that "all of them are". the doctor > who treated me for this condition a long time ago said that but he does not > know that all of them are made up on the spot in order to adapt to whoever > i am with at the moment. it is easier for someone else to decide who you > are and that is how i fell in love. And maybe that is also how you fell in abandonedment. For the first moment I consider it very attractive to be with someone who shows all the characteristics I like. After a while the effect wears off. Either because it is boring to have someone around who DOES everything I want, IS everything I want, even FEELS everything I want. Or because you simply can’t be the one I have decided you should be. I believe that every individual has its own personality. You can be a very good actor and pretend to be exactly the person that I was looking for, but you cannot do that forever, there will be times were your personality-makeup flakes off. And THAT would be a major dissapointment, discovering that you are not the person I thought you were, that you are pretending, only acting as if you were. And maybe that is the point where other people decide to turn away from you. Take your current situation also as a challenge, a chance to find out about your true personality. And yeah, I think ‘who am I?’ would be a very good topic to discuss with your _therapist_ (and only him), ’cause that’s exactly the kind of problem that cannot be solved by looking into a mirror. > yes, most people want to hospitalize you for talking about suicide. i have > managed to finally speak openly with my therapist about it but only > cautiously and very limited. Congratulations, speaking openly with your therapist is a huge step in the right direction, I think! > that i have not killed myself yet is obvious. that i want to live not so > obvious. that there have been moments that have been "fuck it, let’s just > do it now" You know, sometimes you remember me to the main figure of a roman, ‘The Catcher in the Rye’ by J.D. Salinger. Maybe you’ll find time to read it once in a time, maybe you already know it… > the funny thing is that i do give intimate details but it is what they > THINK are intimate details. then they focus on that and do not realize > that the really bad parts are elsewhere. I divert, i create a false path > for them I sort of did the same thing, because I didn’t want them to touch the very inner part of me. However I didn’t lie to them. Never. I just kept some things for myself, because I didn’t feel safe there, the lack of privacy was driving me crazy and the behaviour of the majority of the nurses did the rest. However, the the treatment of the 3 docs I mentioned was good. Wouldn’t it have been for the bad environment there, I would have told them more about myself and maybe they would have understood. > as i do not want what i mostly believe to be idiots with medical > degrees touching that part of me unless i gain their trust. almost never > has full trust been given. I do not think of them as idiots. They are just confused, because they didn’t learn how to treat PTSD cases properly, that’s the main problem. They feel that you do not trust them, so they do not trust you and because you feel that they do not trust you, you never start trusting them. It’s a vicious circle. In this case I think the psychiatrist has to do the first step towards more trust. > whenever i go deep they cancel me as their > patient giving one or another reason. i’m sure that there are a few people > here who can identify with that. therapists do not want to deal with > really horrible things, with difficult things, complex things. No. The problem is their _education_. They are not trained to handle PTSD cases. That is what frightens them most. After a while they discover that you are not like all the other patients they have treated before. Even if they recognize that you are suffering from PTSD there is no manual how to treat PTSD patients. Especially not complex-PTSD patients. That really scares them, cause they do not know what to do. They are scared of the consequences if you commit suicide because they treated you the wrong way. Because of their fear to make an error, they mistrust you, they control you, they take away your freedom, they get angry with you (because they do not get a feeling of success) and they abandon you. And these are just the things you have experienced so often during your childhood. A major trigger that can directly lead into suicide. Psychiatrists often claim to recognize if someone will attempt suicide for a second time or not. In case of a PTSD patient it becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy. It depends on the psychiatrist. >>his/her story with intimate details. I do not want to relate that to >>the community of _psychiatrists_. During my brief stay at hospital >>after my suicide attempt I met 3 _really_ nice Pdocs. And I do not >>blame them for not having recognized the deeper meaning of my >>symptoms. I can only blame the educational system for not having >>taught them the basic skills for recognizing and treating PTSD patients. > > > i would blame them. I still won’t. > education is more than one gets in a classroom or book. I agree. They need more _practical_ training. For instance the first time most medical students learn how to use a needle is during their very last semesters. > if one cannot understand that and supply empathy, compassion, and > understanding they should not be in a "helping" profession. Understanding other human beings is not something you are born with. In my opinion nobody can completely understand another person. We even do not completely understand ourselves how do we want to completely understand other persons? Empathy, compassion and understanding are in many cases not the things that make students apply for a medical education. Unfortunately many people in helping professions do not have empathy at all. > they cause > damage and then blame it on the patient, calling them resistant or some > other such rubbish. ‘Cause they do not _comprehend_. They do not do this out of malicious reasons. > they are dealing with some of the strongest individuals they will ever > encounter. many of us survived unnameable things. we are resistant for a > reason, we react the way we do for a reason. we are at times suicidal, or > numb, or hysterical for a reason. > they go see something disgusting like "silence of the lambs", eat their > popcorn, and go home. what of those of us who cannot go "home"? they do > not comprehend this. Yep, you made a point. > my solo CD. i was a virtuoso musician (i once had a therapist pull out the > DSM IV and look up "narcissism" after my using that word). well i worked > for the ability to use that word and i told her to fuck herself. the LOL No offense meant, I’m _not_ laughing at you but at your therapist. Had a similar experience with my therapist. It just strongens my impression, that people sometimes only hear what they want to hear. Some therapists so desperately try to put you into a drawer of their mind they feel able to handle and comprehend, that they start to hear things you have never said that way. Funny thing, though, these misunderstandings. Since you unfotunately do not feel able to deal with music: What about literature? Maybe we could invent something like ‘Sunday Night Literature’? Maybe you know some good books you would like to discuss or hear about? Take care and thanks for answering, nv
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