Category: Buddhist Practice

Why We Critique Only Islam!

Question:

Their hope is izlam to be misunderstood.  That is why Allah will punish them.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, that sounds like "The Religion of Peace!"  Amazingly, what you’ll read from JUNO and the rest of the militant Islamists and their sympathizers in this group is the lament of how "Islam is misunderstood." Throw in a concept of Fatwa (i.e. Islamic/Koranic endorsed contract killing) and you have the perfect recipe for Islamic violence. Maybe this will explain: [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. [4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority. [5-51] O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. [3-151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust. [8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. [Qu'ran 9.29] Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [Quran: 9:29-32]: Fight against those among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who do not believe in God and the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, until they are subdued and pay jizyah (tax on non-Muslims) … A typical invitation to the people of the book (Christians and Jews) was: "Embrace Islam, or pay the poll-tax (Ziziya), or fight to death." [Surah 8:39; 9:5, 29: 47:4] " It is a ‘divine’ commandment to persecute Jews and Christians, to defeat them in battle and then to consign them either to slavery or to death." [9:73] O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. [8:12] I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them [9:14] Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers, [8:17] It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah’s: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself [52.45] Leave them then till they meet that day of theirs wherein they shall be made to swoon (with terror): There is no compulsion in Islam as long as one is a Muslim. [2-256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. Islam clearly cannot allow for any other faith. From the hadith: Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4366: It has been narrated by ‘Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim. Sahih Muslim The Book of Faith (Kitab Al-Iman) Book 001, Number 0033: It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. ‘Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah. Well, if you liked the above, you will love the following: Wife beating is GOOD for her. Muhammed said so: 3) THE TRADITIONS (HADITH) ON ISLAMIC WIFE BEATING The Hadith contain more information relative to how wife beating existed in the early Islamic culture. There are a variety of writings, all illustrating various facets of the husband wife relationship and physical violence against the wife. I will mention several of them to bring out the wife’s lower position in the marriage, and the exact type of wife beating that occurred in Muhammad’s time, with his approval. In some cases due to the length I will only quote relevant portions of a Hadith. HISTORICAL CONTEXUAL BACKGROUND ON 4:34 Here is the reference for the background of 4:34. "A women complained to Muhammad that her husband slapped her on the face, (which was still marked by the slap). At first the prophet said to her: "Get even with him", but then added: "Wait until I think about it". Later on, Allah supposedly revealed 4:34 to Muhammad, after which the prophet said: "We wanted one thing but Allah wanted another, and what Allah wanted is best". [To beat your wife is best.] The above quote comes from Razi’s "At-Tafsir al-Kabir" on 4:34 (Quoted in Beyond the Veil [7]. Razi is one of the greatest Muslim scholars. Here is a Hadith from Bukhari [8], vol. 7, # 715, that supports the case: "Narrated Ikrima: ‘Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah’s messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah’s messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa." Allah’s messenger said to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that Abdur-Rahman said, "Yes." The prophet said, "You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow."" Let’s note several items from this Hadith. 1) A woman was beaten by her husband because of marriage discord. The women did not commit any illegal sexual act. She was beaten and bruised because her husband said she was "disobedient" and he thought she wanted to go back to her former husband. 2) The Muslim women were suffering more than the non-Muslim women (via Aisha’s comment), note it is said in the plural. This tells you just how good Muslim women back then really had it. Things were so bad for them, that they had to "support" each other. 3) The woman was badly bruised. 4) Muhammad did not re-prove the man for beating his wife. In fact, he reproached the women for saying Rahman was impotent. Even though she was bruised, Muhammad accepted it. OTHER HADITH AND TRADITIONS ON WIFE BEATING Following are a number of various Hadith that relate instances or comments on wife beating. Again, I have edited several of these because of length. ABU JAHM, A WELL KNOW WIFE BEATER SAHIH MUSLIM [9]. Book 009, Number 3512: When my period of ‘Idda was over, I mentioned to him [Muhammad] that Mu’awiya b. Abu Sufyan and Jahm had sent proposal of marriage to me, whereupon Allah’s said: As for Abu Jahm, he does not put down his staff from his shoulder, and as for Mu’awiya, he is a poor man having no property; marry Usama b. Zaid. I objected

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Response:

Hey, that sounds like "The Religion of Peace!"  Amazingly, what you’ll read from JUNO and the rest of the militant Islamists and their sympathizers in this group is the lament of how "Islam is misunderstood."  Throw in a concept of Fatwa (i.e. Islamic/Koranic endorsed contract killing) and you have the perfect recipe for Islamic violence.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe this will explain: [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. [4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority. [5-51] O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. [3-151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust. [8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. [Qu'ran 9.29] Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [Quran: 9:29-32]: Fight against those among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who do not believe in God and the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, until they are subdued and pay jizyah (tax on non-Muslims) … A typical invitation to the people of the book (Christians and Jews) was: "Embrace Islam, or pay the poll-tax (Ziziya), or fight to death." [Surah 8:39; 9:5, 29: 47:4] " It is a ‘divine’ commandment to persecute Jews and Christians, to defeat them in battle and then to consign them either to slavery or to death." [9:73] O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. [8:12] I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them [9:14] Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers, [8:17] It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah’s: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself [52.45] Leave them then till they meet that day of theirs wherein they shall be made to swoon (with terror): There is no compulsion in Islam as long as one is a Muslim. [2-256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. Islam clearly cannot allow for any other faith. From the hadith: Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4366: It has been narrated by ‘Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim. Sahih Muslim The Book of Faith (Kitab Al-Iman) Book 001, Number 0033: It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. ‘Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah. Well, if you liked the above, you will love the following: Wife beating is GOOD for her. Muhammed said so: 3) THE TRADITIONS (HADITH) ON ISLAMIC WIFE BEATING The Hadith contain more information relative to how wife beating existed in the early Islamic culture. There are a variety of writings, all illustrating various facets of the husband wife relationship and physical violence against the wife. I will mention several of them to bring out the wife’s lower position in the marriage, and the exact type of wife beating that occurred in Muhammad’s time, with his approval. In some cases due to the length I will only quote relevant portions of a Hadith. HISTORICAL CONTEXUAL BACKGROUND ON 4:34 Here is the reference for the background of 4:34. "A women complained to Muhammad that her husband slapped her on the face, (which was still marked by the slap). At first the prophet said to her: "Get even with him", but then added: "Wait until I think about it". Later on, Allah supposedly revealed 4:34 to Muhammad, after which the prophet said: "We wanted one thing but Allah wanted another, and what Allah wanted is best". [To beat your wife is best.] The above quote comes from Razi’s "At-Tafsir al-Kabir" on 4:34 (Quoted in Beyond the Veil [7]. Razi is one of the greatest Muslim scholars. Here is a Hadith from Bukhari [8], vol. 7, # 715, that supports the case: "Narrated Ikrima: ‘Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah’s messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah’s messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa." Allah’s messenger said to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that Abdur-Rahman said, "Yes." The prophet said, "You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow."" Let’s note several items from this Hadith. 1) A woman was beaten by her husband because of marriage discord. The women did not commit any illegal sexual act. She was beaten and bruised because her husband said she was "disobedient" and he thought she wanted to go back to her former husband. 2) The Muslim women were suffering more than the non-Muslim women (via Aisha’s comment), note it is said in the plural. This tells you just how good Muslim women back then really had it. Things were so bad for them, that they had to "support" each other. 3) The woman was badly bruised. 4) Muhammad did not re-prove the man for beating his wife. In fact, he reproached the women for saying Rahman was impotent. Even though she was bruised, Muhammad accepted it. OTHER HADITH AND TRADITIONS ON WIFE BEATING Following are a number of various Hadith that relate instances or comments on wife beating. Again, I have edited several of these because of length. ABU JAHM, A WELL KNOW WIFE BEATER SAHIH MUSLIM [9]. Book 009, Number 3512: When my period of ‘Idda was over, I mentioned to him [Muhammad] that Mu’awiya b. Abu Sufyan and Jahm had sent proposal of marriage to me, whereupon Allah’s said: As for Abu Jahm, he does not put down his staff from his shoulder, and as for Mu’awiya, he is a poor man having no property; marry Usama b. Zaid. I objected to him, but he again said: Marry Usama; so I married him. Allah blessed there in and I was envied (by others). SAHIH MUSLIM Book 009, Number 3526: So I informed him [Muhammad]. (By that time) Mu’awiya, Abu Jahm and Usama b. Zaid had given her the proposal of marriage. Allah’s Messenger said: So far as Mu’awiya is concerned, he is a poor man without any property. So far as Abu Jahm is

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Response:

Maybe this will explain: Condemnation of women in izlam: The famous Muslim Author Researcher Ghazzali mentions about the punishments which has been ordered upon the women because of Eve’s expulsion from heavens: The Punishments: 01. The Monthly Menstruation 02. The pain of Childbirth 03.The pain of Pregnancy 04.The Separation from the parents and marriage to a stranger 05. the Not having control over her own person 06. The inheritance of a lesser share than men. 07. The fact that she must stay secluded in the house 08. The fact of Her liability to be divorced and inability to divorce. 09. The fact that It is being lawful for man to have 4 wives but for a woman to have only 1 husband. 10. The fact that she must not go out of the house unless accompanied by a near relative. 11. The fact that she must keep even her head covered inside the house. 12. The fact that 2 women’s testimonies in the court of law is same as the testimony of 1 man. 13. The fact that men take part in Friday Prayer and Feast for funerals while women do not. 14. the reality of their disqualification for rulership, governership and judgeship. 15. The fact that if their husbands die, they must observe a waiting period of 4 months and 10 days before they marry again. 16. The fact that if their husbands divorce them, they must observe a waiting period of 3 months or 3 menstrual periods before they marry again. 17. The fact that merit has 100 parts, only one is attributable to women while 999 are attributed to men. 18. The fact that if women are profligate they will be given half as much torment as the men on the resurrection day. Now, lets look at a few exact quotes from the experts of Quran’s verses about women: "And all married women are forbidden unto you except those captives whom your right hand possesses. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that you seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery." (Quran: Al Nisa: 4 – 24) "They ask Thee concerning Women’s courses. Say to them: ‘They are a Hurt and a Pollution: So keep away from women in their courses and do not approach them until they are clean.’ But when they are purified, Yee may approach them in any manner, time or place. Ordained for you by Allah, for Allah loves those who turn to him constantly and he loves those who keep themselves Pure and Clean." (Quran: Al Baqarah: 2 – 222) "O Prophet! Why holdest Thou to be forbidden That which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to Please Thy consorts. But Allah is Of the Forgiving. (Quran: Al Tahrim: 66 – 1.2) Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will. (Quran: Al Baqarah: 2 – 223) Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence, what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, & beat them. (Quran: Al Nisa 4 – 34) O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her. Specially for you, not for the believers; we know what we have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Quran: Al Ahzab: 33 – 50) As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, confine them to the houses until death take them. (Quran: Al Nisa: 4 – 15) As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies (Quran: Al Nur: 24 – 6) Shall we educate ourselves, so we can educate the whole world on the true nature of izlam. And this is the true stands of Islam on women, the only question remains to Muslim Women is: "Why are you still a muzlim?" May the light of knowledge comes out from beneath the clouds of ignorance and superstition.

Response:

Maybe this will explain: This is what the future looks like for "politically correct" Europe and Australia. Good luck. It couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch. I guess if they weren’t so busy hating Jews and condemning Israelis, they might figure out where their real problems are. Muslims rule major Swedish city – 09 September 2004 from http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/ An exclusive series of translations from the Swedish press, made for Jihad Watch by Ali Dashti, who writes: Sweden is one of the worst hit countries in Europe of Muslim immigration and Political Correctness. Now, the police themselves have publicly admitted that they no longer control one of Sweden’s major cities. I have made some exclusive translations from Swedish media. They show the future of Eurabia unless Europeans wake up. I’ve seen the future of Eurabia, and it’s called ‘Sweden.’ Malm is Sweden’s third largest city, after Stockholm and Gothenburg. Once-peaceful Sweden, home of ABBA, IKEA and the Nobel Prize, is increasingly looking like the Middle East on a bad day. All following links to major Swedish newspapers, with a brief translation: http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,529910,00.html Malm, Sweden. The police now publicly admit what many Scandinavians have known for a long time: They no longer control the situation in the nations’s third largest city. It is effectively ruled by violent gangs of Muslim immigrants. Some of the Muslims have lived in the area of Roseng Rd, Malm, for twenty years, and still don’t know how to read or write Swedish. Ambulance personnel are attacked by stones or weapons, and refuse to help anybody in the area without police escort. The immigrants also spit at them when they come to help. Recently, an Albanian youth was stabbed by an Arab, and was left bleeding to death on the ground while the ambulance waited for the police to arrive. The police themselves hesitate to enter parts of their own city unless they have several patrols, and need to have guards to watch their cars, otherwise they will be vandalized. "Something drastic has to be done, or much more blood will be spilled" says one of the locals. http://w1.sydsvenskan.se//Article.jsp?article=10092861 The number of people emigrating from the city of Malm is reaching record levels. Swedes, who a couple of decades ago decided to open the doors to Muslim "refugees" and asylum seekers, are now turned into refugees in their own country and forced to flee their homes. The people abandoning the city mention crime and fear of the safety of their children as the main reason for leaving. http://w1.sydsvenskan.se/Article.jsp?article=10090830 ALL of the 600 windows at one of the schools in Malm have been broken during the summer holiday. Window smashing alone costs the city millions every year. City buses have been forced to avoid the immigrant ghetto, as they are met with youths throwing rocks or bottles at them if they enter. Earlier this year, a boy of Afghan origin had made plans to blow up his own school. http://w1.sydsvenskan.se//Article.jsp?article=10093267 People working at the emergency ward at the major hospital in Malm receive threats every day, and are starting to get used to it. Patients with knives or guns are commonplace. They have discussed could be seen as a provocation. http://w1.sydsvenskan.se//Article.jsp?article=10093495 Lisa Nilsson has lived in Manhatten, New York City, for 25 years. After moving back to Malm, Sweden, she now misses the safety of New York. She never walks anywhere in Malm after dark, but takes a taxi everywhere she goes. http://www.expressen.se/index.jsp?a=180423 Rapes in Sweden as a whole have increased by 17% just since the beginning of 2003, and have had a dramatic increase during the past decade. Gang rapes, usually involving Muslim immigrant males and native Swedish girls, have become commonplace. Two weeks ago, 5 Kurds http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,528363,00.html 22-year-old Swedish woman going out for fresh air gang raped by three strange men. The only said one word to her: "Whore!" Ali Dashti comments: "Stories like this are in Swedish newspapers every week. Swedish media usually take great care not to mention the ethnic background of the perpetrators, but you can usually read it between the lines." One more: how have Swedish politicians reacted to the chaos caused in one of their major cities because of Muslims of whom even the police seem to be afraid? By making it easier for Muslims to enter Sweden: http://www.cphpost.dk/get/81008.html Sweden’s politicians view arranged marriages as a positive tradition: a cultural pattern that immigrants should be allowed to preserve even in Sweden. The Swedish government feels that interfering in arranged marriages is an encroachment upon private life. In addition, immigrant couples can apply for family reunification in Sweden even if they’ve never seen each other before – as long as the marriage is entered in a culture with a tradition of parents arranging marriages on behalf of their children. A 2002 study by V xj University economics professor Jan Ekberg found that immigration cost Swedish taxpayers DKK 33 billion that year, compared to just DKK 10 billion in Denmark. And while one might assume that the rise in costs would result in knee-jerk opposition to immigration, just the opposite has happened in Sweden. A Swedish government commission has proposed abolishing the so-called "seriousness requirement". = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Stupidity is the only universal capital crime: There is no appeal, and execution is carried out by the stupid person himself. Robert A. Heinlein

Response:

Maybe this will explain: [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. [4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority. [5-51] O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. [3-151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust. [8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. [Qu'ran 9.29] Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [Quran: 9:29-32]: Fight against those among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who do not believe in God and the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, until they are subdued and pay jizyah (tax on non-Muslims) … A typical invitation to the people of the book (Christians and Jews) was: "Embrace Islam, or pay the poll-tax (Ziziya), or fight to death." [Surah 8:39; 9:5, 29: 47:4] " It is a ‘divine’ commandment to persecute Jews and Christians, to defeat them in battle and then to consign them either to slavery or to death." [9:73] O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. [8:12] I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them [9:14] Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers, [8:17] It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah’s: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself [52.45] Leave them then till they meet that day of theirs wherein they shall be made to swoon (with terror): There is no compulsion in Islam as long as one is a Muslim. [2-256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. Islam clearly cannot allow for any other faith. From the hadith: Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4366: It has been narrated by ‘Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim. Sahih Muslim The Book of Faith (Kitab Al-Iman) Book 001, Number 0033: It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. ‘Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah. Well, if you liked the above, you will love the following: Wife beating is GOOD for her. Muhammed said so: 3) THE TRADITIONS (HADITH) ON ISLAMIC WIFE BEATING The Hadith contain more information relative to how wife beating existed in the early Islamic culture. There are a variety of writings, all illustrating various facets of the husband wife relationship and physical violence against the wife. I will mention several of them to bring out the wife’s lower position in the marriage, and the exact type of wife beating that occurred in Muhammad’s time, with his approval. In some cases due to the length I will only quote relevant portions of a Hadith. HISTORICAL CONTEXUAL BACKGROUND ON 4:34 Here is the reference for the background of 4:34. "A women complained to Muhammad that her husband slapped her on the face, (which was still marked by the slap). At first the prophet said to her: "Get even with him", but then added: "Wait until I think about it". Later on, Allah supposedly revealed 4:34 to Muhammad, after which the prophet said: "We wanted one thing but Allah wanted another, and what Allah wanted is best". [To beat your wife is best.] The above quote comes from Razi’s "At-Tafsir al-Kabir" on 4:34 (Quoted in Beyond the Veil [7]. Razi is one of the greatest Muslim scholars. Here is a Hadith from Bukhari [8], vol. 7, # 715, that supports the case: "Narrated Ikrima: ‘Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah’s messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah’s messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa." Allah’s messenger said to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that Abdur-Rahman said, "Yes." The prophet said, "You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow."" Let’s note several items from this Hadith. 1) A woman was beaten by her husband because of marriage discord. The women did not commit any illegal sexual act. She was beaten and bruised because her husband said she was "disobedient" and he thought she wanted to go back to her former husband. 2) The Muslim women were suffering more than the non-Muslim women (via Aisha’s comment), note it is said in the plural. This tells you just how good Muslim women back then really had it. Things were so bad for them, that they had to "support" each other. 3) The woman was badly bruised. 4) Muhammad did not re-prove the man for beating his wife. In fact, he reproached the women for saying Rahman was impotent. Even though she was bruised, Muhammad accepted it. OTHER HADITH AND TRADITIONS ON WIFE BEATING Following are a number of various Hadith that relate instances or comments on wife beating. Again, I have edited several of these because of length. ABU JAHM, A WELL KNOW WIFE BEATER SAHIH MUSLIM [9]. Book 009, Number 3512: When my period of ‘Idda was over, I mentioned to him [Muhammad] that Mu’awiya b. Abu Sufyan and Jahm had sent proposal of marriage to me, whereupon Allah’s said: As for Abu Jahm, he does not put down his staff from his shoulder, and as for Mu’awiya, he is a poor man having no property; marry Usama b. Zaid. I objected to him, but he again said: Marry Usama; so I married him. Allah blessed there in and I was envied (by others). SAHIH MUSLIM Book 009, Number 3526: So I informed him [Muhammad]. (By that time) Mu’awiya, Abu Jahm and Usama b. Zaid had given her the proposal of marriage. Allah’s Messenger said: So far as Mu’awiya is concerned, he is a poor man without any property. So far as Abu Jahm is concerned, he is a great beater of women, but Usama b. Zaid… She pointed with her hand (that she did not approve of the idea of marrying) Usama. But Allah’s Messenger said: Obedience to Allah and obedience to His Messenger is better for thee. She said: So I married him, and I became an object of envy. SAHIH MUSLIM Book 009, Number 3527: She said: Mu’awiya and Abu’l-Jahm were among those who had given me the proposal of marriage. Thereupon Allah’s Apostle said: Mu’awiya is destitute and in poor condition and Abu’l-Jahm is very harsh with women (or he beats women, or like that), you should take Usama b. Zaid (as your husband). COMMENT These three Hadith illustrate that some Muslim husbands could legally beat their wives without any retaliatory consequences. Abu Jahm was known to beat his wives and although Muhammad may not have cared for it, it certainly was allowed within the Islamic community. HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU … read more »

Response:

In the name of allah,most Gracious,most Merciful, All muslem they must start with above , understand please the meaning of that.most of non understanding  Islam ,whom they are just watching CNN ,FOX NEWS or hearing non just people.Its clearly Islam does not sanction violance,be it on Muslims or non Muslims.But they also stressed that,when attacked or their land invaded,Muslims have the right to resist the aggression.So if there is genuin will to address the middle east crisis,a strong warning should be directed to the source of aggression, not to the helpless victims,who are just defending themselves.The question why the Palestinians fight back should be addressed in the light of the non-stop Israeli aggression against the innocent people ,demolishing their homes,destroying their properties ,humiliating their leadership,killing thier children,killing their old men and women….some government like US government still reiterate that it is the Palestinians who must stop violance first.This is unreasonable indeed! Israel refuses to stop its act of aggression and occupation .Still American want the Palestinians to stand with thier hands tied while thier honor being violated,thier houses being destroyed and thier wives and children being slaughtered in cold blood.

Response:

very interesting post.  no replies yet! i’m not a muslim, so i’ll wait for all the muslim replies. just for fun, here’s one thing i really like about islam. it forbids interest.    brilliant! i gather there a ways round it, though. i wonder if the saudi royals put the oil billions in non-interest paying accounts, and if not, how they get square it wit the Q’ran?  does anybody know? psm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why We Critique Only Islam! By Syed Kamran Mirza Frequently we are facing one common accusation from the Islamists, semi-Islamists and even from the moderate (who are ignorant about Quran and hadiths) Muslims-which is "why only critiquing Islam" and why not critiquing also other religions? This is of course a very prudent question. And this question needs to be answered by the group of critics. Critics may think that enough have been discussed about the fallacies of Islam everywhere in the whole world. By now every simple mind should understand very well as to why we only critique Islam! But I am not surprised by the question, because we must know that-childhood brainwashing of those moderate Muslims and utter hypocrisies of those erudite Islamists they mostly fail to realize the truth simply due to their sheer blind-faith in Islam. In this essay, I would like to make a hypothetical comparison between the Islam and all other major religions of the world. I shall try to establish the very unique and special character of the religion Islam by an honest and impartial judgment. I shall attempt to answer this very prudent question by my own style. That is, I will generate the right answers from the mouth of those questioners themselves. Instead of answering this question, let me ask those Islamists, moderate Muslims and others the following questions: America has a super plural society having many religions (Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jews, Buddha’s etc). Every day, every hour or every minute-we are sick and tired of hearing in the radio, TV, or newspapers some very common (colorful) adjectives, such as: Muslim militants, Muslim terrorists, Islamic terrorists, Islamic radicals, and Islamic militants, Islamic fanatics, Al-Qeada, and Taliban. My questions here are: why do not we hear about terrorists or radicals of any other religions? Why do not we hear these kinds of ear-soothing colorful adjectives about those millions of atheists, agnostics or even Homosexual guys? Why it is always attached with the peaceful (?) ISLAM? In the North America and throughout the western world-there are hundreds of societies bearing the name of only one religion and that is ISLAM. Examples: AMC, AMA, NABIC, ICNA, ISNA, CAIR etc. etc. There are hundreds of Ummatic organizations/societies throughout the North America and elsewhere in the whole world. Ummatic organizations mostly preach segregation/isolation of Muslims from other peoples in general in the host countries. They teach Muslims that they are superior and their religion is superior and ask to guard their children from mixing with the western "rotten" society. As a result, future generations of Muslims can not blend with the society of host country resulting isolationists and problematic youngsters in an alien society. Ultimate result is the scenario of item# 13 below.  In this, I have many questions: How many Ummatic organizations for Hindu, Christian or Jews can we find? Why no such organization is needed by any other religions? Why only the people of Muslim origin need such Ummatic organization? What is the purpose of such organization? Can we find Jihadi organization in any other religions such: Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hizbullah, Horkut-ul- Jihad, Horkut-ul-mujahedin, Jaise Muhamad, Jihad-e-Muhammad, Tahrik-e-Nifaj-shariaat-e-Muhammad, Al-Hikhma, Al-badr-Mujaheddin, Jamah-e-Islamia, Hijb-e-Islamia, etc. etc.? We can find several dozens of Jihadi Islamic terrorist organizations exists in every Muslim country throughout the world. Can we find such organization in other religions? If not, then why? We can find dozens of countries ruled by Islamic Shariaat (Huhud laws) where Quran is the only viable constitution. All Muslim majority countries also have family laws enforced as per Quranic laws. We can still find many Islamic Republics exist in this modern world of 21st century. My questions here are: Can we find any country ruled by Bible, Old Testament or Ghita today? Can we find just one Republic for Christian, Jewish, Hindus or Buddhas? If the answer is no, then please tell us why no? Islam has become a fearful religion in the whole world today. Islamic terrorists are conspiring to kill innocent civilians, especially western civilians everywhere in the whole world. Whole civilized world is in a panic situation for fear of Islamic terrorism. Horrific incident of killing hundreds of innocent school children in Beslan, Russia, terrorism in Philippine, terrorism in Madrid metro train, terrorisms in the hotels, foreign embassies or tourist resorts in Indonesia, Bomb blasting in the Churches, Mosques of Shiite and Qadiani sects of Muslims-all have the cardinal hall marks of peaceful Islam. German police had arrested an al-Qaeda sympathizer and his fianc

TM and Tantra Part II

Question:

To what detail is TM explained in the Shiva Sutras.

When are you going to read it? So, Barry, the term tantra means ‘techniques’, mantra, yantra, asana, and puja, etc. And, the tantras are textbooks of techniques, etc. So you’re a practicing Tantric Acharya? But you haven’t read any tantras and the one you read years ago contained neither mantra, yantra, asana, or puja. So, you can’t cite a single tantra and you haven’t revealed a single mantra or technique, yet you make status claims of being a devotee of Kali on the tantric path? Go figure. An excerpt from the Shiva Sutra, translated by Swami by Lakshmanjoo: 7. Devi, imagine the Sanskrit letters in these honey-filled foci of awareness, first as letters, then more subtly as sounds, then as most subtle feeling. Then, leaving them aside, be free. 14. Bathe in the center of sound, as in the continuous sound of a waterfall. Or, by putting fingers in ears, hear the sound of sounds. 19. Intone a sound audibly, then less and less audible as feeling deepens into this silent harmony. Work cited: ‘Zen Flesh, Zen Bones’ Centering by Paul Reps Charles Tuttle, 1968 http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/centering.htm

Response:

…the ‘tantras’ are textbooks of techniques, Wrong. Right – which one have you read?

You are so confused. Real tantrics do not teach from books.  It is an oral tradition — period. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -How were these "textbooks" printed in the middle ages? The first known instance of writing in India appears on the Ashokan Pillar at Sarnath, circa 200 B.C. The earliest known Tantra, the Prajna Paramita Hridaya, was probably composed before the beginning of the Christian era. Many Sanskrit Tantras were transported to Tibet beginning in the 8th century – they were reproduced using wood blocks, an early form of printing in India and China. They weren’t. You are incorrect, Sir. We know from archaelogical and historical evidence that tantric texts were prepared in India from an early date. Mahanirvana Tantra, Hevajra Tantra, etc. There is evidence that the inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization (circa 3,500 B.C.) used a yantra, a diagramatical textbook, as a mnemonic device.

Perhaps philosophies but you won’t learn tantra techniques from those. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The word "garanth" means book alright but they were passed down orally. The word ‘tantra’ in Sanskrit means a ‘textbook of techniques’ – the Tantras. From the root word ‘tan’, a thread, like a suture, and ‘tra’, a tool for thinking. A tantra usually contains instructions on bija-mantra use, yantra, mudra, puja, and sadhana. They are very common in India, Tibet and in China. Tantric textbooks can be oral OR written down. The most popular Agama in India is the Srimad Bhagwatam, an oral history of Bharatvarsh, composed by Vyasa, who lived thousands of years ago in the Himalayas, but it wasn’t written down until the Gupta Age. The Rig Veda is an oral textbook and it was composed before 1500 B.C., but it probably wasn’t written down until the invention of Sanskrit by Pannini in the 2nd century B.C.

You are still confused.  We don’t use books to teach tantra.  We recommend books *about* tantra so a practitioner can get an idea of the teaching.  Likewise with the philosophy. You can’t learn tantra from a book. I didn’t say you could, Barry, but, it all depends on what you mean by ‘tantra’. You can’t seem to be able to define your terms very well. What would be the point of composing thousands of tantras if they weren’t manuals used for instruction?

Who knows? In some cases writing were so the court tantric could keep his job.  If he produced a lot rambling or flowery words describing what was experiencing then the king would keep him on unchallenged by another tantric who may not have had the time or means to produces such works. Much of it is just intellectualizing on something very simple. I am learning directly from a tantric master. Maybe so, but how can she remember all the thousands of instructions for practicing tantric sadhanas? Even His Holiness the Dalai Lama of Tibet has to sometimes refer to a textbook – even he can’t remember all the words to the Kalachakra puja!

It is a he.  It is allowable to write down the instructions but they are still kept secret.  Yes, I’ve seen priest read the Navagraha puja because they don’t have it memorized.  But these *do not* constitute a textbook.  If you think so then you are using a *broad* definition. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The practice of TM 2 x 20 is pure tantra. So you believe. The practice of TM isn’t based on a belief system – it’s an applied practicum based on the science of energy conservation. The practice of TM, which utilizes bija-mantra techniques in order to realize Man’s essential nature, is essentialy tantric in practice. The TM technique is described in the Shiva Sutra, which was spoken by Lord Shiva himself; it’s described in the Mandukya Karika by Gaudapada, who was an acknowledged Tantric Master; and TM is fully explained by the Adi Shankaracharya in his his numerous comments on Yoga Sutras and in his tantric texts such as Dakshinamurti Stotram and in Saundaryalahari.

Do you practice TM anymore?  To what detail is TM explained in the Shiva Sutras.  What is probably described is just "yogic meditation."  TM is just a popular (or once popular) version of it. There is no other  knowledge higher than the Sri Vidya – Absolute Knowledge.

And Ford makes the best car on the road? Some people believe they are going to soon fly up into the skies naked. Mostly Tantrics, Alchemists, and Yogis. : )

Wrong — the Rapture Right thinks that. You believe that too? It doesn’t matter what I believe – it all depends on the facts on the ground. Whatever goes up must come down and that’s the natural law of causation. How you rise up is a matter of tantric technique – in other words, Tantra.

Broad definition which shows you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Response:

Willy keeps posting the same old tired clippings Barry – Well, I can’t hold a candle to all your cogent postings. But, why do all yours begin with RE: and end on one line?

Brevity is the essence of wisdom.   While you were posting all those ‘me toos’, I wrote a whole book. ROTFL!!! I’m sure you did. Now pick yourself off the floor and tell us the name of your publisher? showing he knows nothing about tantra Get a grip – you haven’t even defined "tantra", other than to point out that the word may mean a thread or string in Sanskrit, which I pointed out here years ago. You do read the archives, right?

You claimed something else. and probably doesn’t even understand what he posts. It’s simple: the ‘tantras’ are textbooks of techniques, composed by the Siddhas of Medieval India; texts such as Kularnava, Bhairavi, and Hevajra. That’s what the word tantra means – a textbook, Barry. You have read the tantras, right?

Wrong. How were these "textbooks" printed in the middle ages?  They weren’t.  The word "garanth" means book alright but they were passed down orally. You can’t learn tantra from a book.  I am learning directly from a tantric master. Of course he is NOT a tantric so what would he know? The practice of TM 2 x 20 is pure tantra. There is no other knowledge higher than the Sri Vidya – Absolute Knowledge.

So you believe. Some people believe they are going to soon fly up into the skies naked.  You believe that too? I would rather see in his own words what he knows about tantra not a bunch of articles he has culled from the Internet. These are my own words, Moron – the articles are just the references and the works cited. And, this is the Internet. D’oh!

So you are the Homer Simpson of tantra? In this case he actually ought to *read* the article he referenced (which does not mention TM). The TM technique IS tantra – it’s mentioned numerous times in the Vedic literature and in the Yoga Sutras. I can point to numerous Tantras, both Hindu and Buddhist, which describes the TM technique in detail.

No, TM is yogic meditation.  There is some teaching of right hand tantra involved but TM’ers are not tantrics.  That’s a whole different story. One can construe a lot of things from the sutras. I *AM* a tantric and I can tell you that tantra is as diverse as there are regions and villages in India. Maybe so, but you haven’t demonstrated any Tantric knowledge or revealed any Tantric secret practices.

They wouldn’t be secret if I revealed them, right? I have written on some of the standard *Indian* tantric siddhis.  Maybe you were out prairie dog hunting and missed them. Shri Vidya is ONLY one form of tantra. The Sri Vidya cult is one of the most popular forms of Tantricism in all India and TM is the most popular form of meditation. Millions of people, all over India, worship the Sri Vidya and  meditate on the TM bija mantras.

In a country of over a billion people one can easily make a statement that millions practice some specific path BUT if you had ever actually visited India you would know that about 85% of those people do so "in name only." It is a fact that all the Shankaracharyas agree that the Saraswati Dasanamis worship the Sri Vidya. It is also a fact that the Sri Chakra, is ensconced on the mandir at both Dwarka, Kanchi, and the Sringeri Mathas. It is also a fact that all the Adwaita Sannyasins claim that Adi Shankara established four mathas as seats of learning and for the worship of Sri Vidya. According to the Shankaracharya of Sringeri, the Adi Shankara placed the Sri Chakra, symbol of Tripurasundari, with the TM mantras inscribed thereon, at each of the seats of learning – Jyotirmath, Dwarka, Puri, Srigeri and Kanchi.

So you espouse Sri Vidya.  Some folks espouse Vishnaiva tantra.  Some people espouse Sufi tantra.  Some folks espouse Tibetan tantra.  Some folks espouse Jain tantra.  Some folks espouse Bengali tantra. Yada, yada, yada. Welcome to Willy’s tantra shack.

Response:

…the ‘tantras’ are textbooks of techniques, Wrong.

Right – which one have you read? How were these "textbooks" printed in the middle ages?

The first known instance of writing in India appears on the Ashokan Pillar at Sarnath, circa 200 B.C. The earliest known Tantra, the Prajna Paramita Hridaya, was probably composed before the beginning of the Christian era. Many Sanskrit Tantras were transported to Tibet beginning in the 8th century – they were reproduced using wood blocks, an early form of printing in India and China.  They weren’t.

You are incorrect, Sir. We know from archaelogical and historical evidence that tantric texts were prepared in India from an early date. Mahanirvana Tantra, Hevajra Tantra, etc. There is evidence that the inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization (circa 3,500 B.C.) used a yantra, a diagramatical textbook, as a mnemonic device. The word "garanth" means book alright but they were passed down orally.

The word ‘tantra’ in Sanskrit means a ‘textbook of techniques’ – the Tantras. From the root word ‘tan’, a thread, like a suture, and ‘tra’, a tool for thinking. A tantra usually contains instructions on bija-mantra use, yantra, mudra, puja, and sadhana. They are very common in India, Tibet and in China. Tantric textbooks can be oral OR written down. The most popular Agama in India is the Srimad Bhagwatam, an oral history of Bharatvarsh, composed by Vyasa, who lived thousands of years ago in the Himalayas, but it wasn’t written down until the Gupta Age. The Rig Veda is an oral textbook and it was composed before 1500 B.C., but it probably wasn’t written down until the invention of Sanskrit by Pannini in the 2nd century B.C. You can’t learn tantra from a book.

I didn’t say you could, Barry, but, it all depends on what you mean by ‘tantra’. You can’t seem to be able to define your terms very well. What would be the point of composing thousands of tantras if they weren’t manuals used for instruction?  I am learning directly from a tantric master.

Maybe so, but how can she remember all the thousands of instructions for practicing tantric sadhanas? Even His Holiness the Dalai Lama of Tibet has to sometimes refer to a textbook – even he can’t remember all the words to the Kalachakra puja! The practice of TM 2 x 20 is pure tantra. So you believe.

The practice of TM isn’t based on a belief system – it’s an applied practicum based on the science of energy conservation. The practice of TM, which utilizes bija-mantra techniques in order to realize Man’s essential nature, is essentialy tantric in practice. The TM technique is described in the Shiva Sutra, which was spoken by Lord Shiva himself; it’s described in the Mandukya Karika by Gaudapada, who was an acknowledged Tantric Master; and TM is fully explained by the Adi Shankaracharya in his his numerous comments on Yoga Sutras and in his tantric texts such as Dakshinamurti Stotram and in Saundaryalahari. There is no other  knowledge higher than the Sri Vidya – Absolute Knowledge. Some people believe they are going to soon fly up into the skies naked.

Mostly Tantrics, Alchemists, and Yogis. : ) You believe that too?

It doesn’t matter what I believe – it all depends on the facts on the ground. Whatever goes up must come down and that’s the natural law of causation. How you rise up is a matter of tantric technique – in other words, Tantra.

Response:

Willy keeps posting the same old tired clippings showing he knows nothing about tantra and probably doesn’t even understand what he posts.    Of course he is NOT a tantric so what would he know?  I would rather see in his own words what he knows about tantra not a bunch of articles he has culled from the Internet.  In this case he actually ought to *read* the article he referenced (which does not mention TM). I *AM* a tantric and I can tell you that tantra is as diverse as there are regions and villages in India.  Shri Vidya is ONLY one form of tantra. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TM and Tantra Part II This essay has been uploaded for easy reading: http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/sri-vidya.htm Sri Vidya The worship of Shri Vidya has been popular in India from very ancient times. Swami Gaudapada, the teacher of Shankaracharya, was a worshiper of Sri Vidya. Following his initiation Swami Shankaracharya wrote a lucid ode to Shri Vidya, the Saundariya Lahari, a translation of which is now available in English. Many desciples of Shankaracharya were worshipers of Sri Vidya such as Sureshvara, Padmapada, Vidyaranya and the brother of Chaitanya, Nityanand, Abhinavagupta, and our own Swami Brahmanand Saraswati. It is known to a galaxy of devotees that Swami Krishnanand Saraswati of Sringeri was the teacher of Guru Dev, who was himself a worshiper of Sri Vidya. The Srividya is described as a mnemonic device used for meditation practice and it derives from the Buddhist tantric practices which utilize mantra, yantra, and dharani. The Shri Yantra is a graphical representation of the TM bija-mantras, and it was invented in the fifth century in Bengal at the beginning of the Gupta era by the Sahajiyas or Baulas. In fact, any device can be used for meditation, a word, a diagram – even the word "mic" or "one". However, it has been found through experience over many years that certain sounds are more beneficial than others. At any rate, the use of the Sri Yantra is a purely mental technique – it’s been termed a visualization excercise by Swami Ageananda Bharati. Sound The letters of the vidya are Nada, or sound, and the absolute, and end as uttered sound. When charged with the consciousness of the Fourth these mere letters become mantra. Otherwise, words continually delude. The 16th syllable of the vidya also represents the Fourth. This Fourth is Kamakala. Beyond it is the Ultimate Absolute (Atiturya – beyond the Fourth), and beyond any sort of description. http://www.hubcom.com/magee/tantra/tripura.htm

Response:

Willy keeps posting the same old tired clippings

Barry – Well, I can’t hold a candle to all your cogent postings. But, why do all yours begin with RE: and end on one line? While you were posting all those ‘me toos’, I wrote a whole book. ROTFL!!! showing he knows nothing about tantra

Get a grip – you haven’t even defined "tantra", other than to point out that the word may mean a thread or string in Sanskrit, which I pointed out here years ago. You do read the archives, right? and probably doesn’t even understand what he posts.

It’s simple: the ‘tantras’ are textbooks of techniques, composed by the Siddhas of Medieval India; texts such as Kularnava, Bhairavi, and Hevajra. That’s what the word tantra means – a textbook, Barry. You have read the tantras, right? Of course he is NOT a tantric so what would he know?

The practice of TM 2 x 20 is pure tantra. There is no other knowledge higher than the Sri Vidya – Absolute Knowledge. I would rather see in his own words what he knows about tantra not a bunch of articles he has culled from the Internet.

These are my own words, Moron – the articles are just the references and the works cited. And, this is the Internet. D’oh! In this case he actually ought to *read* the article he referenced (which does not mention TM).

The TM technique IS tantra – it’s mentioned numerous times in the Vedic literature and in the Yoga Sutras. I can point to numerous Tantras, both Hindu and Buddhist, which describes the TM technique in detail. I *AM* a tantric and I can tell you that tantra is as diverse as there are regions and villages in India.

Maybe so, but you haven’t demonstrated any Tantric knowledge or revealed any Tantric secret practices.  Shri Vidya is ONLY one form of tantra.

The Sri Vidya cult is one of the most popular forms of Tantricism in all India and TM is the most popular form of meditation. Millions of people, all over India, worship the Sri Vidya and  meditate on the TM bija mantras. It is a fact that all the Shankaracharyas agree that the Saraswati Dasanamis worship the Sri Vidya. It is also a fact that the Sri Chakra, is ensconced on the mandir at both Dwarka, Kanchi, and the Sringeri Mathas. It is also a fact that all the Adwaita Sannyasins claim that Adi Shankara established four mathas as seats of learning and for the worship of Sri Vidya. According to the Shankaracharya of Sringeri, the Adi Shankara placed the Sri Chakra, symbol of Tripurasundari, with the TM mantras inscribed thereon, at each of the seats of learning – Jyotirmath, Dwarka, Puri, Srigeri and Kanchi.

Response:

TM and Tantra Part II This essay has been uploaded for easy reading: http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/sri-vidya.htm Sri Vidya The worship of Shri Vidya has been popular in India from very ancient times. Swami Gaudapada, the teacher of Shankaracharya, was a worshiper of Sri Vidya. Following his initiation Swami Shankaracharya wrote a lucid ode to Shri Vidya, the Saundariya Lahari, a translation of which is now available in English. Many desciples of Shankaracharya were worshipers of Sri Vidya such as Sureshvara, Padmapada, Vidyaranya and the brother of Chaitanya, Nityanand, Abhinavagupta, and our own Swami Brahmanand Saraswati. It is known to a galaxy of devotees that Swami Krishnanand Saraswati of Sringeri was the teacher of Guru Dev, who was himself a worshiper of Sri Vidya. The Srividya is described as a mnemonic device used for meditation practice and it derives from the Buddhist tantric practices which utilize mantra, yantra, and dharani. The Shri Yantra is a graphical representation of the TM bija-mantras, and it was invented in the fifth century in Bengal at the beginning of the Gupta era by the Sahajiyas or Baulas. In fact, any device can be used for meditation, a word, a diagram – even the word "mic" or "one". However, it has been found through experience over many years that certain sounds are more beneficial than others. At any rate, the use of the Sri Yantra is a purely mental technique – it’s been termed a visualization excercise by Swami Ageananda Bharati. Sound The letters of the vidya are Nada, or sound, and the absolute, and end as uttered sound. When charged with the consciousness of the Fourth these mere letters become mantra. Otherwise, words continually delude. The 16th syllable of the vidya also represents the Fourth. This Fourth is Kamakala. Beyond it is the Ultimate Absolute (Atiturya – beyond the Fourth), and beyond any sort of description. http://www.hubcom.com/magee/tantra/tripura.htm

Response:

Young Westerner weeks enlightenment.

Question:

How does one find an appropriate guru? I like Pilot Baba, but he lives in India, far away. I don’t know about going to India. What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? How does one find an ideal teaching? Go out into the woods in the evening and take a huge dose of LSD.

on a full moon night. after a week of preparation of prayer, fasting, etc. avoid all gurus like the plague, they are all stark raving mad. or just read ‘The Lazy Man’s Guide to Enlightenment’ by Thaddeus Golas, testimonial evidence by one of the rare LSD success stories, available on line.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does one find an appropriate guru? I like Pilot Baba, but he lives in India, far away. I don’t know about going to India. What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? How does one find an ideal teaching? Go out into the woods in the evening and take a huge dose of LSD. on a full moon night. after a week of preparation of prayer, fasting, etc. avoid all gurus like the plague, they are all stark raving mad. or just read ‘The Lazy Man’s Guide to Enlightenment’ by Thaddeus Golas, testimonial evidence by one of the rare LSD success stories, available on line.

LSD ’successes’ are rare because… (a) Most people who take acid do it for ‘fun’ (b) Most are too young (teens or early 20s) (c) Most acid is too weak (d) A bad trip scares the shit out of them and they never touch it again If it is done as part of a focussed program of exploration it can be very useful. FFF Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -How remarkable that a young person, and a westerner at that, should seek enlightenment. This is very rare. A seeker cannot help but seek, but you need no practice to be who you are here and now. Enlightenment is a joke in the end, for you are already IT. But reading that does not make it feel real, usually. What you truly seek is freedom. There are teachers in the world who can help you, but how do you find one? You can’t. But, when you get to the end of your rope, when even one more question about enlightenment will be to much to bear, cry out to the universe with all your heart to send you the one to end the illusion once and for all. The Self may take pity on you at last, take the form of a master and present the Truth to you in your own language. Until you get to that point of desperation, you might read Advaita Vedanta classics such as I Am That, by Nisargadatta Maharaj or anything by Ramana Maharshi to begin to get a feel for what freedom is. No one can be enlightened. No person can be enlightened. It is not something that can be found or had. It is not a prize for a human being or a goal. The human mind cannot be enlightened. You are already That which you seek. The mind thinking it is not enlightened is the final stumbling block. Move that mind out of the way for just one second, and there You are. Best wishes in your search, nonetheless, you are not alone. All over the world I have seen a few young people seeking this freedom while their peers are taking life at face value. How wonderful!

Hello Kalidas, In your article above you assert that "no person can be enlightened" then go on to say that they can by "moving that mind out of the way".  Any one reading you would be, quite understandably, confused. To understand mysticism, read my web page. TTFN — Colin Hankin:     www.zenprime.demon.co.uk                 zendan-at-zenprime-dot-demon-dot-co-dot-uk

Response:

How remarkable that a young person, and a westerner at that, should seek enlightenment. This is very rare. A seeker cannot help but seek, but you need no practice to be who you are here and now. Enlightenment is a joke in the end, for you are already IT. But reading that does not make it feel real, usually. What you truly seek is freedom. There are teachers in the world who can help you, but how do you find one? You can’t. But, when you get to the end of your rope, when even one more question about enlightenment will be to much to bear, cry out to the universe with all your heart to send you the one to end the illusion once and for all. The Self may take pity on you at last, take the form of a master and present the Truth to you in your own language. Until you get to that point of desperation, you might read Advaita Vedanta classics such as I Am That, by Nisargadatta Maharaj or anything by Ramana Maharshi to begin to get a feel for what freedom is. No one can be enlightened. No person can be enlightened. It is not something that can be found or had. It is not a prize for a human being or a goal. The human mind cannot be enlightened. You are already That which you seek. The mind thinking it is not enlightened is the final stumbling block. Move that mind out of the way for just one second, and there You are. Best wishes in your search, nonetheless, you are not alone. All over the world I have seen a few young people seeking this freedom while their peers are taking life at face value. How wonderful! Best wishes, Kalidas

Response:

In my opinion, there is nothing for me to do but pursue one-pointedly my enlgihtenment.

Wanting to pursue enlightenment is like desiring to bite time. Work on calming your mind and cultivating discipline and awareness.  There is no teacher who can enlighten you, there is no teacher who can give you enlightenment, and there is no teacher who can lead you to enlightenment. Anyone who claims otherwise is a fraud.

Response:

You may call me a fraud, but I can. www. search         – Dereflexation

Response:

How does one find an appropriate guru? I like Pilot Baba, but he lives in India, far away. I don’t know about going to India. What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? How does one find an ideal teaching?  As long as we’ve got the 60s rehash going, here’s another one:  "Ass, grass, or gas: No one rides for free."  Ha ha, that is so funny.  I’ve been waiting to use that for years.

hahah that is good here’s guaranteed enlightenment for you, free, seriously, no joke, just click here: http://www.geocities.com/pietzsche/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – YOU’RE WELCOME (and don’t crosspost to alt.zen if you don’t want it straight)

Response:

How does one find an appropriate guru? I like Pilot Baba, but he lives in India, far away. I don’t know about going to India. What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? How does one find an ideal teaching? Go out into the woods in the evening and take a huge dose of LSD.

Or even better, don’t.

Response:

"Ass, grass, or gas: No one rides for free." Damn, I miss the 60s. It was my youth. I should have taken more pictures. ..  Ape;)) The 60’s still exist here in Woodstock NY.   No kidding.  The only difference is that the hippies all have grey hair now :-) — Regards, Evelyn

Makes me want to visit East Wind Community again.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Ass, grass, or gas: No one rides for free." Damn, I miss the 60s. It was my youth. I should have taken more pictures. ..  Ape;)) The 60’s still exist here in Woodstock NY.   No kidding.  The only difference is that the hippies all have grey hair now :-) — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox") I’m growing a beard, and yes, it’s gray. ..  Ape;)

I haven’t grown a beard yet :-) (and hope I don’t ever) But there are some suspiciously grey looking roots on my reddish blonde hair. — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox")

Response:

"Ass, grass, or gas: No one rides for free." Damn, I miss the 60s. It was my youth. I should have taken more pictures. ..  Ape;))

The 60’s still exist here in Woodstock NY.   No kidding.  The only difference is that the hippies all have grey hair now :-) — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox")

Response:

How does one find an appropriate guru?

Usually is the Guru that will find you. I like Pilot Baba, but he lives in India, far away. I don’t know about going to India. What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? How does one find an ideal teaching? What are the best monasteries/ashrams in the United States? Which ones can one just go and live at? that don’t charge rent?

Well, there are many ways to God. Gods is infinite. I am very serious. In my opinion, there is nothing for me to do but pursue one-pointedly my enlgihtenment. I am lacking in knowing the Western resources, specifically in the United States. I don’t know what to do/where to go. Good information is highly appreciated. Thank you.

http://www.yogananda-srf.org

Response:

What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself?

I can’t promise it’s the fastest, but I would recommend a good vipassana group. Good luck.

Response:

What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? I can’t promise it’s the fastest, but I would recommend a good vipassana group. Good luck.

I would agree.  Don’t worry so much about getting a guru – they will find you.  Your first project is to learn as much as you can.  Check out different groups.  Talk to people.  Be skeptical of easy solutions. Vipassana or Mindfulness meditation is a good start.  Yoga classes.   Buddhist centers.  The Vedantic Society.  All teach for donations.   There is a lot to learn and more to practice. You will find what resonates with you as you keep an open mind. — ~Stu

Response:

"Ass, grass, or gas: No one rides for free." Damn, I miss the 60s. It was my youth. I should have taken more pictures. ..  Ape;)) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does one find an appropriate guru? I like Pilot Baba, but he lives in India, far away. I don’t know about going to India. What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? How does one find an ideal teaching? You seem sure of the "enlightenment" you are seeking, but unsure of who can teach it to you.  In reality, you are just attached to a word and a concept: "enlightenment."  You seem to be in some desperate situation (to take your post at face value) where you are willing to take anything that comes along that promises you "enlightenment."  The idea of a formula for finding the "ideal teaching" is a joke.  "Young Westerner" in the title seems like some anachronism from the 60s.  Are you still with me? What are the best monasteries/ashrams in the United States? Which ones can one just go and live at? that don’t charge rent? You come across as quite desperate, and naive, too.  You are giving off the scent of shit to every lowlife exploitative phony-guru fly there is.  You want it rent-free?  You’d better hope you are real lucky and happen to come across some sincere people willing to deal with your crap.  As long as we’ve got the 60s rehash going, here’s another one:  "Ass, grass, or gas: No one rides for free."  Ha ha, that is so funny.  I’ve been waiting to use that for years (though it may be 70s kitsch rather than 60s kitsch, for all I know).  The metaphor should be clear enough, or maybe not.  I could quote you some relevant Joshu koans, or something, but at this point I wouldn’t waste them on you. I am very serious. In my opinion, there is nothing for me to do but pursue one-pointedly my enlightenment. I am lacking in knowing the Western resources, specifically in the United States. I don’t know what to do/where to go. Good information is highly appreciated. Thank you. Here’s some good information: get a better understanding of what you’re looking for.  Practice on your own for a while, at least until you have a better idea of what you’re looking for than you’ve expressed above.  And don’t troll, if that’s what you’re doing — it is bad karma. YOU’RE WELCOME (and don’t crosspost to alt.zen if you don’t want it straight) — Mind Control: TT&P == http://www.datafilter.com/mc Home page: http://www.datafilter.com/alb Allen Barker

Response:

How does one find an appropriate guru? I like Pilot Baba, but he lives in India, far away. I don’t know about going to India. What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? How does one find an ideal teaching?

Go out into the woods in the evening and take a huge dose of LSD. FFF Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org

Response:

How does one find an appropriate guru? I like Pilot Baba, but he lives in India, far away. I don’t know about going to India. What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? How does one find an ideal teaching? What are the best monasteries/ashrams in the United States? Which ones can one just go and live at? that don’t charge rent? I am very serious. In my opinion, there is nothing for me to do but pursue one-pointedly my enlgihtenment. I am lacking in knowing the Western resources, specifically in the United States. I don’t know what to do/where to go. Good information is highly appreciated. Thank you.

rosebud: A loaded smith&wesson aimed directly at your forehead can be the fastest path to enlightenment.  However, one still needs to loose ones’s attachment to self presevation.

Response:

YOU’RE WELCOME (and don’t crosspost to alt.zen if you don’t want it straight) Straight? Alt.zen?  Think you ought to rephrase that, snookums?

I’m not your snookums, asshole.  And I was speaking for myself, not some fantasy you might have imagined for the mighty alt.zen group.  In a later post you actually imply that more posts make a better Usenet newsgroup.  But it is just the opposite of that if the signal-to-noise is improved. — Mind Control: TT&P == http://www.datafilter.com/mc Home page: http://www.datafilter.com/alb Allen Barker

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does one find an appropriate guru? I like Pilot Baba, but he lives in India, far away. I don’t know about going to India. What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? How does one find an ideal teaching? You seem sure of the "enlightenment" you are seeking, but unsure of who can teach it to you.  In reality, you are just attached to a word and a concept: "enlightenment."  You seem to be in some desperate situation (to take your post at face value) where you are willing to take anything that comes along that promises you "enlightenment."  The idea of a formula for finding the "ideal teaching" is a joke.  "Young Westerner" in the title seems like some anachronism from the 60s.  Are you still with me? What are the best monasteries/ashrams in the United States? Which ones can one just go and live at? that don’t charge rent? You come across as quite desperate, and naive, too.  You are giving off the scent of shit to every lowlife exploitative phony-guru fly there is.  You want it rent-free?  You’d better hope you are real lucky and happen to come across some sincere people willing to deal with your crap.  As long as we’ve got the 60s rehash going, here’s another one:  "Ass, grass, or gas: No one rides for free."  Ha ha, that is so funny.  I’ve been waiting to use that for years (though it may be 70s kitsch rather than 60s kitsch, for all I know).  The metaphor should be clear enough, or maybe not.  I could quote you some relevant Joshu koans, or something, but at this point I wouldn’t waste them on you. I am very serious. In my opinion, there is nothing for me to do but pursue one-pointedly my enlightenment. I am lacking in knowing the Western resources, specifically in the United States. I don’t know what to do/where to go. Good information is highly appreciated. Thank you. Here’s some good information: get a better understanding of what you’re looking for.  Practice on your own for a while, at least until you have a better idea of what you’re looking for than you’ve expressed above.  And don’t troll, if that’s what you’re doing — it is bad karma. YOU’RE WELCOME (and don’t crosspost to alt.zen if you don’t want it straight) Straight? Alt.zen?  Think you ought to rephrase that, snookums?

I mean, this has to be the GAYEST group on USENET!!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does one find an appropriate guru? I like Pilot Baba, but he lives in India, far away. I don’t know about going to India. What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? How does one find an ideal teaching? You seem sure of the "enlightenment" you are seeking, but unsure of who can teach it to you.  In reality, you are just attached to a word and a concept: "enlightenment."  You seem to be in some desperate situation (to take your post at face value) where you are willing to take anything that comes along that promises you "enlightenment."  The idea of a formula for finding the "ideal teaching" is a joke.  "Young Westerner" in the title seems like some anachronism from the 60s.  Are you still with me? What are the best monasteries/ashrams in the United States? Which ones can one just go and live at? that don’t charge rent? You come across as quite desperate, and naive, too.  You are giving off the scent of shit to every lowlife exploitative phony-guru fly there is.  You want it rent-free?  You’d better hope you are real lucky and happen to come across some sincere people willing to deal with your crap.  As long as we’ve got the 60s rehash going, here’s another one:  "Ass, grass, or gas: No one rides for free."  Ha ha, that is so funny.  I’ve been waiting to use that for years (though it may be 70s kitsch rather than 60s kitsch, for all I know).  The metaphor should be clear enough, or maybe not.  I could quote you some relevant Joshu koans, or something, but at this point I wouldn’t waste them on you. I am very serious. In my opinion, there is nothing for me to do but pursue one-pointedly my enlightenment. I am lacking in knowing the Western resources, specifically in the United States. I don’t know what to do/where to go. Good information is highly appreciated. Thank you. Here’s some good information: get a better understanding of what you’re looking for.  Practice on your own for a while, at least until you have a better idea of what you’re looking for than you’ve expressed above.  And don’t troll, if that’s what you’re doing — it is bad karma. YOU’RE WELCOME (and don’t crosspost to alt.zen if you don’t want it straight) Straight? Alt.zen?  Think you ought to rephrase that, snookums? I mean, this has to be the GAYEST group on USENET!!

AND it just had the worst month in USENET history: posting activity tanked !! !Facts are simple: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.zen/about "About alt.zen               Description: It is. Join this group Directory:      Topic:  Other Usenet:  alt zen Activity:  High Members:  100+ About: Public – Usenet Messages per month          Jan     Feb     Mar     Apr     May     Jun     Jul     Aug Sep      Oct     Nov     Dec 1994            57      700     463     652     391     169     11 126     13      473     213       1995    293     378     403              1      18      43      63 44      42      97      11       1996    2281    2487    1961    2823    2599    2990    2395    2276 3242    3036    1883    2639     1997    3113    2184    1887    1889    2902    3182    2527    1410 3872    2325    2218    2350     1998    3350    3824    3003    2479    3540    4365    5597    4346 3687    5470    3811    4181     1999    3853    2946    3572    3254    5338    4518    2686    2641 2266    2537    2511    4247     2000    4186    3120    3598    3549    4289    3461    4011    5101 3744    3994    3236    4042     2001    4716    5961    8187    4622    3847    3720    5413    5656 6586    5827    6352    3351     2002    5199    7708    7852    6059    4883    3448    2738    3047 3641    4459    4683    5212     2003    3433    3597    3500    1081    2054    3525    5387    5382 3784    3865    2310    3272     2004    3559    3264    1426    2611    2828    4132    2902    723"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does one find an appropriate guru? I like Pilot Baba, but he lives in India, far away. I don’t know about going to India. What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? How does one find an ideal teaching? You seem sure of the "enlightenment" you are seeking, but unsure of who can teach it to you.  In reality, you are just attached to a word and a concept: "enlightenment."  You seem to be in some desperate situation (to take your post at face value) where you are willing to take anything that comes along that promises you "enlightenment."  The idea of a formula for finding the "ideal teaching" is a joke.  "Young Westerner" in the title seems like some anachronism from the 60s.  Are you still with me? What are the best monasteries/ashrams in the United States? Which ones can one just go and live at? that don’t charge rent? You come across as quite desperate, and naive, too.  You are giving off the scent of shit to every lowlife exploitative phony-guru fly there is.  You want it rent-free?  You’d better hope you are real lucky and happen to come across some sincere people willing to deal with your crap.  As long as we’ve got the 60s rehash going, here’s another one:  "Ass, grass, or gas: No one rides for free."  Ha ha, that is so funny.  I’ve been waiting to use that for years (though it may be 70s kitsch rather than 60s kitsch, for all I know).  The metaphor should be clear enough, or maybe not.  I could quote you some relevant Joshu koans, or something, but at this point I wouldn’t waste them on you. I am very serious. In my opinion, there is nothing for me to do but pursue one-pointedly my enlightenment. I am lacking in knowing the Western resources, specifically in the United States. I don’t know what to do/where to go. Good information is highly appreciated. Thank you. Here’s some good information: get a better understanding of what you’re looking for.  Practice on your own for a while, at least until you have a better idea of what you’re looking for than you’ve expressed above.  And don’t troll, if that’s what you’re doing — it is bad karma. YOU’RE WELCOME (and don’t crosspost to alt.zen if you don’t want it straight)

Straight? Alt.zen?  Think you ought to rephrase that, snookums?

Response:

How does one find an appropriate guru? I like Pilot Baba, but he lives in India, far away. I don’t know about going to India. What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? How does one find an ideal teaching?

You seem sure of the "enlightenment" you are seeking, but unsure of who can teach it to you.  In reality, you are just attached to a word and a concept: "enlightenment."  You seem to be in some desperate situation (to take your post at face value) where you are willing to take anything that comes along that promises you "enlightenment."  The idea of a formula for finding the "ideal teaching" is a joke.  "Young Westerner" in the title seems like some anachronism from the 60s.  Are you still with me? What are the best monasteries/ashrams in the United States? Which ones can one just go and live at? that don’t charge rent?

You come across as quite desperate, and naive, too.  You are giving off the scent of shit to every lowlife exploitative phony-guru fly there is.  You want it rent-free?  You’d better hope you are real lucky and happen to come across some sincere people willing to deal with your crap.  As long as we’ve got the 60s rehash going, here’s another one:  "Ass, grass, or gas: No one rides for free."  Ha ha, that is so funny.  I’ve been waiting to use that for years (though it may be 70s kitsch rather than 60s kitsch, for all I know).  The metaphor should be clear enough, or maybe not.  I could quote you some relevant Joshu koans, or something, but at this point I wouldn’t waste them on you. I am very serious. In my opinion, there is nothing for me to do but pursue one-pointedly my enlightenment. I am lacking in knowing the Western resources, specifically in the United States. I don’t know what to do/where to go. Good information is highly appreciated. Thank you.

Here’s some good information: get a better understanding of what you’re looking for.  Practice on your own for a while, at least until you have a better idea of what you’re looking for than you’ve expressed above.  And don’t troll, if that’s what you’re doing — it is bad karma. YOU’RE WELCOME (and don’t crosspost to alt.zen if you don’t want it straight) — Mind Control: TT&P == http://www.datafilter.com/mc Home page: http://www.datafilter.com/alb Allen Barker

Response:

How does one find an appropriate guru? ted. Thank you.

You’re not ready for a guru.  You need to get a life first. "When the student is ready, the Master appears." — Namu Amida Butsu Cyan http://mysite.verizon.net/res6zeam/american-buddhist/news.html

Response:

How does one find an appropriate guru? The exact way its always been when you find anything else you desire greatly it appears out of nowhere just there and as any other found obgect just as you thought it was to be….a piece of clothing or jewelry just appears and you find it unresistable because of all reasons normally you refuse these found things you cant now as it fits with no restrictions of any kind to your unique conditions of having these material items. I like Pilot Baba, but he lives in India, far away. I don’t know about going to India. Who doesnt grin like pilot so what i knew him in los angles when he was in the air force in india and i was a pre teen and i never had to go to india……lets say the first step is to find the idenity comes later as first you see the obgect then later your desires id it but find preceeds obtainment……then when he was in LA i stopped by many years later looked the same as always or how i remember him. Probably the best person on the planet with kids as over the centuries to come he was that guy. You might be a little late here finding the same way that many do as in the wrong way as not actually finding but responding. Which might be your trouble reaction is not finding and your choices might be based reaction instead. What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? Who knows who cares nobodies concern in the matters of gawd surely not mine. How does one find an ideal teaching? Yellow pages is really good let your fingertips do the walking. What are the best monasteries/ashrams in the United States? Which ones can one just go and live at? that don’t charge rent? Public library park bench and lots of women go there with nothing to do looking for handsome intelligent men with jobs spiritually calm and a life. I am very serious. In my opinion, there is nothing for me to do but pursue one-pointedly my enlgihtenment. I am lacking in knowing the Western resources, specifically in the United States. I don’t know what to do/where to go. Good information is highly appreciated. Thank you. Well i always had a van for shelter that was easy to afford repair and i went to shows parties parks games casual jobs motels hotels events non stop for near 2 decades never anyplace to long but i had this monostary picked out already just trouble to find it as i had to again id it after i found it as previously suspecting but yet unfound ….Me not the guru type as when your younger you want women and being around someone elses thing theres always rules.Now one could force nature say resist or go along mind your owen biz live an ordinary life no rules except common public decentecy politeful whatever….. They all start late these guys after thier teens tweenties on as thats all thats left or something .Myself i started so young and no hurry either cause i knew it was going to be a lifetime. I wish everyone could find happiness as that male female original plan dream concept because if NOT that leads to the social co-ed world of aka churchs ashrams libraries public lectures on all subgects etc as an adult outlet…..these things as the social healing boy meets girl or many think so a second childhood in a rent free school coed man why not. Well gee i think you should send a couple dollars a week faithfully to ol pilot and that would probably teach you everything you need to know just how to come up with $2 a week all your discipline issues might be solved in year after year. Besides you seem to like his stuff why not help instead think it comes from out of the blue made for you rather a cheesy stomach feeling i get ……its a nice confession i like this but cant stuff the whole cake down my throat well how about contributing instead then your part instead of someone with eyes way too big. Then you can see if what you really desire is what you really desire perhaps some lady might come along on this road you supporting both you and something else as they require support also…Might as the get one has to have extra room to put.. You know buffalo new york you can buy or get next to free houses by the hundreds daily or Pittsburgh Pennsylvannia or Flint michigan all fixers jd

Response:

How does one find an appropriate guru? I like Pilot Baba, but he lives in India, far away. I don’t know about going to India. What is the fastest way to enlightenment for a presently undisciplined person like myself? How does one find an ideal teaching? What are the best monasteries/ashrams in the United States? Which ones can one just go and live at? that don’t charge rent? I am very serious. In my opinion, there is nothing for me to do but pursue one-pointedly my enlgihtenment. I am lacking in knowing the Western resources, specifically in the United States. I don’t know what to do/where to go. Good information is highly appreciated. Thank you.

Response:

Study: Meditation Aids Teen Blood Pressure

Question:

I can imagine Buddhist meditation being welcomed in schools where prayer has been banned.

I’m glad to know you’re in favour of this Andrew. I too feel that it is an excellent method for focusing the student.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ATLANTA – A study by the Medical College of Georgia found that two 15-minute meditation sessions each day ? once at home, the other at school ? helped teenage students lower their blood pressure over four months. Their blood pressure even continued to drop for four months after the meditation sessions ended, researchers said Friday. When college officials asked Fitts to join a study of whether meditation could lower blood pressure, he thought they were out of their minds. But getting into his mind was the key. Fitts says the program helped him. "The meditation calms me down and makes me think better about things," said Fitts, now a nursing student at the University of South Carolina at Aiken. Prayer likely would have had the same effect with the added bonus of God’s blessing (assuming one prayed to God).

I agree that focused meditation of any type might also be found to have the same effect.  What makes this interesting, though, is that it’s not religious, and shouldn’t upset people of different faiths who have their own version of meditation, affirmation, prayer, spiritual mind treatment, etc.  The teacher could lead a meditation without religious focus if they have people of many faiths (like they do in the area where I live).  This sounds like a good way to get the benefit without focusing on religion of any kind. Researchers screened 5,000 students and found 156 had blood pressure similar to Fitts. Half of that group received the meditation sessions and the other half, a control group, were placed in health education classes. All students wore blood pressure monitors 24 hours a day. What would have been more interesting if the control groups included a prayer group and an aerobic exercise group.

Yes–I think more research should be done with different meditative practices and exercise. The control group did not have any reduction in blood pressure, according to the study in the American Journal of Hypertension. I can imagine Buddhist meditation being welcomed in schools where prayer has been banned.

I doubt that any specific religious practice would be acceptable to everyone–it would have to be more like Herbert Benson’s relaxation response work, where the practice is non-religious in focus. Otherwise, belief being what it is, there would be one horrible hue and cry! Benson’s practice was clearly demonstrated to have a positive affect and is not attached to any religion.  I always wondered why it never spread.  Maybe now it finally will.  The regularity seems to be the key.  I’ve started and stopped several meditation techniques, and I did feel great while I was doing it. –pc

Response:

With one click you can make entire threads such as this disappear.  If enough people do this maybe the stupid cross-posters will get bored with spamming themselves.It’s not only possible but easy to ignore and hide an entire conversation (thread). It’s a simple two-step process: 1.  First you have to set up a view definition to hide ignored messages, then 2.  when you’re scanning posts you can simply highlight the original post in the thread you want to ignore.  Then click on the toolbar:  "MessageIgnore Conversation"  Voila!  The offending thread disappears! Here is the way to set it up, copied directly from the OE help file: To hide ignored messages so they don’t clutter up your message lists, click View, point to Current View, and then select Hide Read or Ignored Messages. Selecting Hide Read or Ignored Messages will hide messages you have read, messages you have ignored, and messages you have both read and ignored. If you want to hide ignored messages, but want to keep your read messages visible, click Hide Read or Ignored Messages as instructed above, then click View (again) , point to Current View, and then select Define Views. In the Define Views dialog box, click New. In box 1 of the View Editor, select Where the message has been read. In box 2, click the words Show/Hide and select Show messages. In box 3, give this view a name (e.g., "Hide Ignored Messages") and then click OK. Once this is activated, when you first click on "Ignore Conversation" on the Message  Toolbar the thread just turns light grey (ignored).  But once you exit the newsgroup and return, the entire thread is completely gone from view unless and until you decide to change the view back to include ignored conversations.

Response:

ATLANTA – A study by the Medical College of Georgia found that two 15-minute meditation sessions each day

He blasted to bits the whole social order!

Question:

My understanding is that Buddhism had deteriorated

Mr. Hutchinson – Which one? Millions of out-castes in India rejected the caste system and adopted Buddhism under Dr. Ambedkar. To my way of thinking, that’s not a deteriorization, but a radical transformation into right thinking. They rejected distinctions based on birth circumstances and rightly so. into bickering among the priesthood

There are no ‘priests’ in Buddhism. and Shankaracharya re-established right understanding of the vedas and the Absolute.

Shankaracharya supported the caste system and he re-established that doctrine by not speaking out against it. He had the perfect chance to do so in his Commentary on the Bhagavad Gita and he failed to do so. You have no caste, Sir, according to Shankara. Why anyone would want to be a ’sudra’ is beyond me! Buddhists are said to not worship God but they do deify Buddha.

Buddhist have no problem with worshipping the Gods but the Gods are not enlightened – they are not Buddhas. Therefore they are not enlightened beings. Thjere are no Buddhas in Heaven. At work, a lady buys flowers everyday to put on the altar of Buddha in her home temple.

Millions of Buddhists practice puja every day as anoffering to their Teacher, but they do not believe in a monotheistic God who enters into history and changes the law of cause and effect. I think it’s beautiful.

Buddha was called ‘Bhagavan’ by his followers, which means ‘Lord’, but they do not mean by that the Absolute Creator God. People think of Shankaracharya as a formidible but dry intellect. But a little-known aspect of him was his enthusiastic worship of the divine mother aka Saundarya Lahiri.

Maybe so, but there is a great differnece between the non-violent puja performed by Buddhists and the Vedic sacrifices that involved the taking of life. Apparently, the propitiation of devatas such as as Sri Buddha, Srimati Radharani or Sri Lakshmi, which are benevolent, non-violent practices, all developed out of South India. In contrast to the Vedic ritual, the Buddhist puja ceremony, first attested to by the pre-sectarian Buddhists, Yogins, and Sramanas, was non-violent in nature, and was a personal ceremony which could be performed by all and not just by those of certain birth circumstances. The practice of puja, that is, personal devotions involving mudras, mantras, yantras, and dharani, are probably non-Vedic in origin. Personal puja by the laity was not practiced by the Vedic Aryans. In contrast, the greatest principle of the Vedas is the principle of sacrifice (yajna). Sacrifice is  the hallmark of the Indo-Aryan Vedic civilization. In pre-Buddhist India, the Vedic rite involved much violence and cruelty to living beings. The Vedic system was attacked by the historical Buddha, Shakya the Muni, because it did not tend to liberation, but to prolonged samsara, by perpetuating violence to living creatures. Thanks to the many householder siddhas who overheard certain phrases at a yoga camp-meet, we can now enjoy a purely symbolic sacrifice when we practice our sadhana. Sacrifice your own thoughts, Man, be free! And, don’t get confused thinking that violence is really non-violence.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The fourfold order was created by Me? (Gita 4:13) Oh, really! Lets figure that one out: So, the Lord Vasudeva in the Bhagavad Gita apparently invented the ‘caste-system’, varnashramadharma, consisting of the four castes and the four stages of life. The word ‘varna’ means ‘color’ in Sanskrit, right? Krishna, in the Gita, tells Arjuna that it is better to do your caste duty well, rather than do poorly the caste duties of another. That would explain a lot, I guess! According to the Cologne Sanskrit Lexicon, the term ‘raksasa’ is a ‘devil spirit’. So, ‘varna’ means color in Sanskrit, and the Sanskrit word for "nigger devil" is apparently the term "raksasa". The word ‘raksasa’ is an active verb derived from ancient Sanskrit. It’s a Vedic slang term, i.e., a ‘dark-skinned’ [South Indian Dravidian?], an untouchable due to the varnashrama system mandated by a Personal God named Krishna, a Sanskrit word for ‘black’. Figure that one out! In other dictionaries, the ‘raksasa’ are defined as those who come out of the forest at night to wander about in order to seduce fair-skinned women; they often take the shape of husbands or lovers for the purposes of fornication. That would explain the amorous activities that took place under the autumn moon at the Rasa Dance down in Brindaban! Apparantly, Radha was a dark-skinned, married cow-girl of Barsana who was fond of molesting children in the forest, since at that time, Gopala was only twelve years old at the time. Later, Sri Krishna married Srimati Rukmini and then 18,000 other wives, leaving poor Rukmini back in Mathura when he went to Dwarka after fighting the Mother of all Battles at the Field of the Kurekshetra. Figure those values out!

Listen, I will tell you what I know for certain about this Krishna fell-low. He isn’t a virtuous god, but a deceiving devil. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ‘Raksasa’ are also called ‘confounders of the sacrifice’ who at one time used to lay in wait at fords to attack those who tried to cross one of the seven sacred rivers in Bharatvarsh, (Kaus. Br. XII.1). The Sanskrit word ‘raksasa’ is also an epithet applied (RV I.76,3,) to Indian indigenes in general whose characteristics were likened to ‘demons’ of popular folklore. (It is interesting to note that most of the native Indian resistence to the Aryan invasion was made from fortified positions, while other less organized tribal defenses consisted of guerrilla tactics from forest hiding places, which Indra was constantly invoked to burn and destroy.) Somebody, anybody, please help me to figure this out! Everyone over here knows that I live right next door to one of the largest Hindu Temples outside Mother India. All the inmates there say that all I have to do is worship Govinda – just worship Govinda. The Swami there says that he’s a ‘Brahmin’ of noble birth, whatever thingy that is! According to one respondent on this list, this is what is called ‘Sanatan Dharma’. Well, I think I’ll just worship the Buddha instead! No offense, but according to the Sutras, Buddha blasted to bits the nefarious notions of caste distiction based on birth circumstances of the Vedics. He didn’t cotton-fibre to any kind of skin-color barriers. Buddha was also very averse to killing things for a sacrifice to the Gods in order to get a material boon. In my opinion, what Buddha did was good and the whole land of the Rose Apple Bodhi Tree became a place of meditation and peace for over a thousand years. Then along came Shankara and the cast-concious, city-slicker priests who reverse-engineered the whole damn Dharma, putting themselves at the top of the heap again! Can you figure that? Then, in league with the Musclemen of the Truks and the Mullah-backed terrorist, Mymud of Ghazni, Shankara glorified in the cutting off of the heads of the meditating Shramanas at Nalanda and then helped run the chrome-domed, burnt-orange bedsheet-wearing, ‘atheistic’ Buddhs out of the Holy Land of Bharatvarsh up to the land of Put, i.e., Tibet, and to Ceylon, Siam and Burma and up the Silk Road and acroos the Yellow River Yangtze. It would seem that Shankara tried to co-opt everything that was good from Buddhism – the renounced Order itself, the Sutra tradition, Compassion, the Appearance Only doctrine and the Transcendental Point-of-view. But, due to a topsy-turvy mind-set based on base ignorance, Shankara confabulated into ‘Brahmanism’ everything that was bad, such as the caste sytem and the sacrificing of both large and small animals to appease the demi-Gods. This is all explained to our understanding in the Srimad Bhagwatam. (Exactly when the Shankaracharya put on the orange bedsheet himself and shaved his head, to become a quasi-Buddhist in order to ape the Shramanas he was railing against, has not been established, exactly. According to one expert pundit over here, the Adi Shankaracharya lived over 500 years BEFORE the historical Buddha, Shakya the Muni, yet the Shankara directly quotes two phrases used by Dharma Kirti in A.D.) Does that figure? D’oh! Oh! I get it – Buddha Gotama is the ninth incarnation of the Lord Vishnu. What? Unfortunatly I can’t read archaic Sanskrit, Hindi, Urdu or any other common prakrit, so please help me out with this. Any help at all will be greatly appreciated. Sarva Mangalam!

Response:

The fourfold order was created by Me? (Gita 4:13) Oh, really! Lets figure that one out: So, the Lord Vasudeva in the Bhagavad Gita apparently invented the ‘caste-system’, varnashramadharma, consisting of the four castes and the four stages of life. The word ‘varna’ means ‘color’ in Sanskrit, right? Krishna, in the Gita, tells Arjuna that it is better to do your caste duty well, rather than do poorly the caste duties of another. That would explain a lot, I guess! According to the Cologne Sanskrit Lexicon, the term ‘raksasa’ is a ‘devil spirit’. So, ‘varna’ means color in Sanskrit, and the Sanskrit word for "nigger devil" is apparently the term "raksasa". The word ‘raksasa’ is an active verb derived from ancient Sanskrit. It’s a Vedic slang term, i.e., a ‘dark-skinned’ [South Indian Dravidian?], an untouchable due to the varnashrama system mandated by a Personal God named Krishna, a Sanskrit word for ‘black’. Figure that one out! In other dictionaries, the ‘raksasa’ are defined as those who come out of the forest at night to wander about in order to seduce fair-skinned women; they often take the shape of husbands or lovers for the purposes of fornication. That would explain the amorous activities that took place under the autumn moon at the Rasa Dance down in Brindaban! Apparantly, Radha was a dark-skinned, married cow-girl of Barsana who was fond of molesting children in the forest, since at that time, Gopala was only twelve years old at the time. Later, Sri Krishna married Srimati Rukmini and then 18,000 other wives, leaving poor Rukmini back in Mathura when he went to Dwarka after fighting the Mother of all Battles at the Field of the Kurekshetra. Figure those values out! ‘Raksasa’ are also called ‘confounders of the sacrifice’ who at one time used to lay in wait at fords to attack those who tried to cross one of the seven sacred rivers in Bharatvarsh, (Kaus. Br. XII.1). The Sanskrit word ‘raksasa’ is also an epithet applied (RV I.76,3,) to Indian indigenes in general whose characteristics were likened to ‘demons’ of popular folklore. (It is interesting to note that most of the native Indian resistence to the Aryan invasion was made from fortified positions, while other less organized tribal defenses consisted of guerrilla tactics from forest hiding places, which Indra was constantly invoked to burn and destroy.) Somebody, anybody, please help me to figure this out! Everyone over here knows that I live right next door to one of the largest Hindu Temples outside Mother India. All the inmates there say that all I have to do is worship Govinda – just worship Govinda. The Swami there says that he’s a ‘Brahmin’ of noble birth, whatever thingy that is! According to one respondent on this list, this is what is called ‘Sanatan Dharma’. Well, I think I’ll just worship the Buddha instead! No offense, but according to the Sutras, Buddha blasted to bits the nefarious notions of caste distiction based on birth circumstances of the Vedics. He didn’t cotton-fibre to any kind of skin-color barriers. Buddha was also very averse to killing things for a sacrifice to the Gods in order to get a material boon. In my opinion, what Buddha did was good and the whole land of the Rose Apple Bodhi Tree became a place of meditation and peace for over a thousand years. Then along came Shankara and the cast-concious, city-slicker priests who reverse-engineered the whole damn Dharma, putting themselves at the top of the heap again! Can you figure that? Then, in league with the Musclemen of the Truks and the Mullah-backed terrorist, Mymud of Ghazni, Shankara glorified in the cutting off of the heads of the meditating Shramanas at Nalanda and then helped run the chrome-domed, burnt-orange bedsheet-wearing, ‘atheistic’ Buddhs out of the Holy Land of Bharatvarsh up to the land of Put, i.e., Tibet, and to Ceylon, Siam and Burma and up the Silk Road and acroos the Yellow River Yangtze. It would seem that Shankara tried to co-opt everything that was good from Buddhism – the renounced Order itself, the Sutra tradition, Compassion, the Appearance Only doctrine and the Transcendental Point-of-view. But, due to a topsy-turvy mind-set based on base ignorance, Shankara confabulated into ‘Brahmanism’ everything that was bad, such as the caste sytem and the sacrificing of both large and small animals to appease the demi-Gods. This is all explained to our understanding in the Srimad Bhagwatam. (Exactly when the Shankaracharya put on the orange bedsheet himself and shaved his head, to become a quasi-Buddhist in order to ape the Shramanas he was railing against, has not been established, exactly. According to one expert pundit over here, the Adi Shankaracharya lived over 500 years BEFORE the historical Buddha, Shakya the Muni, yet the Shankara directly quotes two phrases used by Dharma Kirti in A.D.) Does that figure? D’oh! Oh! I get it – Buddha Gotama is the ninth incarnation of the Lord Vishnu. What? Unfortunatly I can’t read archaic Sanskrit, Hindi, Urdu or any other common prakrit, so please help me out with this. Any help at all will be greatly appreciated. Sarva Mangalam!

Response:

Dear one! You are right to be upset with all that is not the part of you own moral and spiritual identification. To take the meaning of Krishna’s sayings out of social self-identity of the people who are, actually, satisfied with that context is not reasonable, like to say to the woman not to wear jewelry because, you do not. In same way

LotH: An actual on-topic post

Question:

If I had the slightest suspicion you knew what you were talking about, I’d be surprised.  As it is, I’ll just laugh.  I give you a 3.5/10 on this troll attempt.

A 3.5?  Shucks, I thought I did better than that!  Anybody around here gimme at least a 5?

Response:

How many here pray the Liturgy of the Hours?  What do you use?  The four-volume set?  Christian Prayer?  Shorter Christian Prayer? Magnificat??? Curious, Alberich

I am a cantor for Evening Prayer in our Parish.  We only celebrate this Liturgy once per week and I don’t pray the Liturgy of the Hours outside of that. I use the 4 volume set to get my readings and collects, but follow a simplified version of EP that is included in the Canadian Hymnal ‘Catholic Book of Worship III’. On a weekday: Invitation to prayer Hymn Psalm 141 – sung and with incense burning Psalm Prayer Psalm – sung Psalm Prayer Word of God Canticle of Mary – sung Intercessions – Byzantine chant Lord’s Prayer Concluding Prayer Blessing – sung if presider can sing Sign of Peace Gabby

Response:

How many here pray the Liturgy of the Hours?

I don’t participate in any "canned" prayer activities.  I find them as absurd as the Tibetan Buddhist practice of spinning prayer wheels. What do you use?

I use my brain, which God has given me.  If I’ve got a problem or need, I pray directly about that. The four-volume set?

Geeze, this sounds like those tv ads selling classic popular music compilations.  A four volume prayer set? Christian Prayer?

Well, I try to cover all the bases and include the Native Americans’ concept of the Great Spirit when I pray. Shorter Christian Prayer?

For any and all Catholics, any Shorter Christian Prayer is to be recommended.  I can still remember some adolescent attempts at praying rosaries, a long time ago.   Ugh! Magnificat???

No way!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many here pray the Liturgy of the Hours? I don’t participate in any "canned" prayer activities.  I find them as absurd as the Tibetan Buddhist practice of spinning prayer wheels. What do you use? I use my brain, which God has given me.  If I’ve got a problem or need, I pray directly about that. The four-volume set? Geeze, this sounds like those tv ads selling classic popular music compilations.  A four volume prayer set? Christian Prayer? Well, I try to cover all the bases and include the Native Americans’ concept of the Great Spirit when I pray. Shorter Christian Prayer? For any and all Catholics, any Shorter Christian Prayer is to be recommended.  I can still remember some adolescent attempts at praying rosaries, a long time ago.   Ugh! Magnificat??? No way!

If I had the slightest suspicion you knew what you were talking about, I’d be surprised.  As it is, I’ll just laugh.  I give you a 3.5/10 on this troll attempt. Alberich   "It would be atrocious," I said, "to kill a man in order to say bu-ba-baff!"   "It would be atrocious," William remarked, "to kill a man even to say ‘Credo in unum Deum.’…"

Response:

How many here pray the Liturgy of the Hours?  What do you use?  The four-volume set?  Christian Prayer?  Shorter Christian Prayer? Magnificat??? Curious, Alberich   "It would be atrocious," I said, "to kill a man in order to say bu-ba-baff!"   "It would be atrocious," William remarked, "to kill a man even to say ‘Credo in unum Deum.’…"

Response:

)Wiccan Propecy Time Life Series( Next In Current Events!

Question:

I would like to issue several statements in this post about our current state of affairs. What I type may seem like common sense to you but there are those in this world who don’t have common sense. Wicca is an international religion. We respect all benevolent gods and we reject the path of violence if at all possible. We don’t believe that the resources on the Earth are limited and that people must suffer for people of privilage to thrive. In other words, hunger is mostly a distribution problem. Oil shortages is mostly a result of price fixing and the supression of cleaner technology. We as the religion of Wicca demand respect for human and civil rights in the entire world as well as the freedom to practice all non-violent religions.

Response:

I would like to issue several statements in this post about the current state of affairs of your posts……. I would like to issue several statements in this post about our current state of affairs. What I type may seem like common sense to you but there are those in this world who don’t have common sense.

What you type not only does NOT seem like common sense, it IS pure nonsense. Wicca is an international religion. We respect all benevolent gods and we reject the path of violence if at all possible.

Good thing I ain’t Wiccan or wikkin, eh! I don’t respect any gods and nor do I reject the path of violence…. I ain’t buddhist, either. hehehe We don’t believe that the resources on the Earth are limited and that people must suffer for people of privilage to thrive. In other words, hunger is mostly a distribution problem. Oil shortages is mostly a result of price fixing and the supression of cleaner technology.

You’re an idiot, then. The Earth’s resources ARE limited, fool. Quit paying attention to the curtains and fancy movie screen and look behind them. We as the religion of Wicca demand respect for human and civil rights in the entire world as well as the freedom to practice all non-violent religions.

Whose this "we" you speak of, you stupid man? Non-violent religions? Hmmmm… looks like christ-stain’s, muslim’s, hebrews, hindu’s, etc, better start looking for another religion to practice! hehehe My one passion is to serve mankind…… Preferably, medium rare. hehehe

Response:

| I would like to issue several statements in this post about our current | state of affairs. What I type may seem like common sense to you but there | are those in this world who don’t have common sense. | | Wicca is an international religion. We respect all benevolent gods and we | reject the path of violence if at all possible. | | We don’t believe that the resources on the Earth are limited and that people | must suffer for people of privilage to thrive. In other words, hunger is | mostly a distribution problem. Oil shortages is mostly a result of price | fixing and the supression of cleaner technology. | | We as the religion of Wicca demand respect for human and civil rights in the | entire world as well as the freedom to practice all non-violent religions. Nicely done — Talesin- The Bad Boy of Witchcraft ™ Somebody Else for President!  http://home.kc.rr.com/pendragonsloft

faq: your move to south carolina

Question:

christian homeland faq as christians from all over the present united states pack up u-haul trailers in  reparation for their move to south carolina so that they may build a christian homeland, as outlined at http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38571 there are doubtless many questions about what life will be like in the homeland. brothers in christ, life will be wonderful!  as god’s chosen people, christians will be able to live and practice their faith unfettered by constraints imposed by a government influenced by vile and godless humanism. to better understand the quality of life, let’s adress some common questions about the proposed homeland as explained by such influential christian leaders as gary north and rousas rushdoony, as explained at http://www.serve.com/thibodep/cr/cr.htm. 1.  who is eligible to live in the homeland? The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church’s public marks of the covenant–baptism and holy communion–must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel. Gary North, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989), p. 87. 2. will my buddhist friends be able to move with us? This is God’s world, not Satan’s. Christians are the lawful heirs, not non-Christians. Gary North, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989), p. 102. Is Christianity just another special-interest group, clawing for political power? Or, even if Christians are acting as God’s spokesmen, must Christians always conduct themselves politically as if Christianity were just another special-interest group? Do Christians conduct evangelism this way? Do they believe that the gospel is just another competing worldview among many? That Jesus is just another Messiah competing among many? That the God of the Bible is just another divinity competing against many? Gary North, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989), p. 99. 3. can blacks live in the homeland? The private ownership of slave labor in the American South has been the subject of extensive distortion. The Negroes were slaves to their tribal heads in Africa, or prisoner-slaves of other tribes. The monetary unit in black Africa was man, the slave. The Negro moved from an especially harsh slavery, which included cannibalism, to a milder form. Much is said about the horrors of the slave ships, many of which were very bad, but it is important to remember that slaves were valuable cargo and hence property normally handled with consideration. A Canadian legislative commission member in 1847 reported that the Irish immigrants were being transported on ships loaded with twice as many passengers as the ship should hold, huddled down between decks, with too little food and water, and in conditions "as bad as the slave trade." The condition of the Irish immigrants on arrival was far worse than that of slaves: they had no master to feed and clothe them or to provide shelter. The Irish moved from semi-slavery in Ireland to freedom in America only a few years before the Negro gained emancipation. After a century and a quarter, or less, the Irish are a leading power in the United States, and the Negroes remain on the lowest strata. The basic difference between the Irish and the Negro has not been color: it has been character. The Negroes demand more aid, i.e., more slavery and slave-care, and dwell on their sufferings. The Irish have instead looked to the present and future and helped shape America. It is a significant difference that cannot be explained altogether by color or environment. The Chinese also came to the United States under very difficult circumstances and similarly overcame them. R.J. Rushdoony, Politics of Guilt and Pity (Fairfax, VA: Thoburn Press, [1970] 1978), pp 3-4, 19, 25. 4. what kinds of job opportunities will there be in the homeland? The bible permits slavery. This statement will come as a shock to most people. The laws in the Bible concerning slavery have very seldom been studied, much less preached upon. But the biblical laws concerning slavery are among the most beneficent in all the Bible…. 1. Obtaining slaves. Kidnapping is forbidden as a method of acquiring slaves, and deserves capital punishment (Exodus 21:16). Basically, there are only four legal ways to get slaves. They may be purchased (Leviticus 25:44-46), captured in war (Numbers 31:32-35; Deuteronomy 21:10-14), enslaved as punishment for theft (Exodus 22:1-3), or enslaved to pay off debts (Leviticus 25:39; Exodus 21:7). We should especially note God’s merciful justice here. Heathen slaves who were purchased or captured in war were actually favored by this law, since It placed them in contact with believers. They received the relatively lenient treatment of the biblical slavery regulations, and they were also able to hear the liberating message of the gospel…. 2. The care of slaves Slaves have no economic incentive to work, since they cannot improve their situation regardless of how hard they labor. Therefore the master is allowed to provide that incentive by beating them (Exodus 21:20-27). Obviously, the slave is not regarded as having equal rights as a free man. But this very fact would keep a man from entering slavery too hastily. Slavery has certain benefits (job security, etc.), but it has serious drawbacks as well. Slavery was not allowed to become irresponsible welfare or paternalism. The law limited the master, however. If he murdered his slave, he was executed (Exodus 21:20). On the other hand, if the slave survived a beating and died a day or two later, there was no punishment (Exodus 21:21); there was no evidence that the master had actually intended to murder him. Again, this risk was a serious incentive against enslaving oneself. God did not want men to heedlessly abandon their freedom, and this law would tend to keep men working hard and living responsibly in order to avoid the threat of losing their liberty and civil rights. Relatively minor but permanent injuries (such as the loss of an eye or a tooth) resulted in the slave’s freedom (Exodus 21:26-27). This was also an economic incentive to keep the master from hitting the slave in the face, since a heavy blow could mean the loss of his "investment." Naturally, this law protected slaves from severe mutilation. David Chilton, Productive Christians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1981), pp. 61-62. 5.  what guarantee of toleration will there be in the homeland? Segregation or separation is thus a basic principle of Biblical law with respect to religion and morality. Every attempt to destroy this principle is an effort to reduce society to its lowest common denominator. Toleration is the excuse under which this levelling is undertaken, but the concept of toleration conceals a radical intolerance. In the name of toleration, the believer is asked to associate on a common level of total acceptance with the atheist, the pervert, the criminal, and the adherents of other religions as though no differences existed. R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law (Nutley, NJ: Craig Press, 1973), p. 294. 6. what about immigrants? What then should we do about illegal aliens? Gary North makes the following suggestions: First, require proof of immunization, or require those without proof to be immunized. Second, abolish the minimum wage law. Third, abolish all public welfare programs. Fourth, abolish the requirement that the children of illegal aliens be required to attend public schools at taxpayers ‘ expense. Just let them work, at whatever wage they can get. In short, let them enjoy the freedom that we all want. David Chilton, Productive Christians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1985), pp. 47-48. 7.  what about women’s rights? One area of protection is against violence, or rape. The texts citing the laws on rape and seduction are the following; rape, Deuteronomy 22: 23-29; seduction, Exodus 22: 16,17. The penalty for the rape of a married woman, or of a betrothed woman, was death. The law specified that consent on the part of the woman was presumed if it occurred "in the city" and "she cried not," and she then was assumed to be a participant in the adultery rather than an act of rape. As Luther observed, "The city is mentioned here for the sake of an example, because in it there would be people available to help her. Therefore she who does not cry out reveals that she is being ravished by her own will." In other words, "the city" represents here available help; was it appealed to? The cases classified as seduction are technically and realistically cases of rape also; the difference is that the girl in question is neither married nor betrothed. Why, in such cases, was not the death penalty invoked? In the former cases, marriage was already contracted; the offense was against both man and woman, therefore, and required death. In the case of a single girl, unbetrothed, the decision rested in the hands of the girl’s father, and, in part, the girl. If the offender, cited simply as a seducer in Exodus 22:16, 17, and as a rapist in Deuteronomy 22:28, 29, is an acceptable husband, then he shall pay 50 shekels of silver as a dowry and marry her, without right of divorce "because he hath humbled her" (Deut. 22:29); but "If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins" (Ex. 22:17). If a man thus is rejected as a husband, the girl is compensated for the offense to make her an attractive wife to another man, coming as she will with a double dowry, his own and her compensation money. To understand the background of this law, let us … read more »

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: christian homeland faq : : as christians from all over the present united states pack up u-haul : trailers in  reparation for their move to south carolina so that they may : build a christian homeland, as outlined at : : http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38571 : Maybe the "christian homeland" can be created in Aztlan :-)   http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2002/05-06-2002/vo18no09_aztlan.htm   The New American – Aztlan and Amalgamation – May 6, 2002 –Jerry Leslie

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christian homeland faq as christians from all over the present united states pack up u-haul trailers in  reparation for their move to south carolina so that they may build a christian homeland, as outlined at http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38571 there are doubtless many questions about what life will be like in the homeland.

Only two questions…. When are you all going ? And will you then stop posting your crap to alt.atheism ? — Jez "The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious, of being out of one’s mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years." R.D. Laing

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christian homeland faq as christians from all over the present united states pack up u-haul trailers in  reparation for their move to south carolina so that they may build a christian homeland, as outlined at http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38571

<snip Well, there goes the neighborhood. Colin Day               aa #1500

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – christian homeland faq as christians from all over the present united states pack up u-haul trailers in  reparation for their move to south carolina so that they may build a christian homeland, as outlined at http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38571 there are doubtless many questions about what life will be like in the homeland. Only two questions…. When are you all going ? And will you then stop posting your crap to alt.atheism ?

Read it all the way through.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – christian homeland faq as christians from all over the present united states pack up u-haul trailers in  reparation for their move to south carolina so that they may build a christian homeland, as outlined at http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38571 there are doubtless many questions about what life will be like in the homeland. Only two questions…. When are you all going ? And will you then stop posting your crap to alt.atheism ? Read it all the way through.

Well, I got a bit distracted by the link…. http://christianexodus.org/ but I did see the bit… If all goes according to plan, Burnell is hoping to have a constitutional convention by 2014, with a president of the new nation  - still to be known as South Carolina – elected in 2016, which is also a presidential election year in the U.S. I mean do they have to wait that long….? — Jez "The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious, of being out of one’s mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years." R.D. Laing

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christian homeland faq as christians from all over the present united states pack up u-haul trailers in  reparation for their move to south carolina so that they may build a christian homeland, as outlined at

…ever notice that the SC State Flag has an Islamic Crescent and a Lebanese style date tree on it?  (hint: It’s not by accident they are there either – those familiar with Symbology know of what I speak)  : )

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – christian homeland faq as christians from all over the present united states pack up u-haul trailers in  reparation for their move to south carolina so that they may build a christian homeland, as outlined at …ever notice that the SC State Flag has an Islamic Crescent and a Lebanese style date tree on it?  (hint: It’s not by accident they are there either – those familiar with Symbology know of what I speak)  : )

The tree is a palmetto (you know — South Carolina, the Palmetto State). South Carolina put the palmetto on its flag to commemorate the repulse of the British from Charleston Harbor in 1776 (the British would take it a few years later). The colonists under Moultrie had used palmettoes in fortifications. Colin Day               aa #1500

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – christian homeland faq as christians from all over the present united states pack up u-haul trailers in  reparation for their move to south carolina so that they may build a christian homeland, as outlined at …ever notice that the SC State Flag has an Islamic Crescent and a Lebanese style date tree on it?  (hint: It’s not by accident they are there either – those familiar with Symbology know of what I speak)  : ) The tree is a palmetto (you know — South Carolina, the Palmetto State). South Carolina put the palmetto on its flag to commemorate the repulse of the British from Charleston Harbor in 1776 (the British would take it a few years later). The colonists under Moultrie had used palmettoes in fortifications.

Gad, palmettoes are nasty!  If you walk through a bunch of them, they’ll slice your legs open :P Robyn Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster #1557

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Biological Duality

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here. ???  Evolution is not a religion; it is an explanation for the development of land and life throughout the ages.  Astronomy, Geology and Biology all concur that the earth and life are billions of years old.  That makes it a religion??? It’s a religion because it cannot be proven. To believe in evolution is an act of faith. That is pure ignorance speaking.  Evolution *has* been proven, time and again.  There is no doubt that it occurs. Alberich You are the ignorant one if you think it’s been proven.

Of course it’s proven.  That’s how we get different breeds of dogs; Darwin’s finches have shown that it happens with their beaks; I have personally seen it a the genetic/molecular level in bacteria. Why would you say it *hasn’t* been proven?  If your answer is that we haven’t been able to observe a species from 25 million years ago evolve into a housecat, that answer doesn’t work.  We haven’t seen many other things that we know exist (take G for example). Alberich

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here. ???  Evolution is not a religion; it is an explanation for the development of land and life throughout the ages.  Astronomy, Geology and Biology all concur that the earth and life are billions of years old.  That makes it a religion??? It’s a religion because it cannot be proven. To believe in evolution is an act of faith. That is pure ignorance speaking.  Evolution *has* been proven, time and again.  There is no doubt that it occurs. Alberich You are the ignorant one if you think it’s been proven. Of course it’s proven.  That’s how we get different breeds of dogs; Darwin’s finches have shown that it happens with their beaks; I have personally seen it a the genetic/molecular level in bacteria. Why would you say it *hasn’t* been proven?  If your answer is that we haven’t been able to observe a species from 25 million years ago evolve into a housecat, that answer doesn’t work.  We haven’t seen many other things that we know exist (take G for example). Alberich

You really do need help with your delusions.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Biological Duality While the evolutionary religionist fanatics insist that all creation is the result of materialistic naturalism and mechanical operation they overlook the real duality of biology.  When one examines every level of biological operation one sees(if they have an open and clear mind with which to see) the duality of matter AND information. No life can exist without the two together. There is no scientific evidence that the brain, or any individual cell within the brain, either was or could have been created by matter unassisted by pre-existing intelligence.  The pseudo-scientists who believe( a matter of shear faith-not supported by actual evidence) that natural selection made the brain do so not because of the evidence but in spite of the evidence.  And this is done in an attempt to pervert the actual facts.  This is indeed pseudo-science or scientism and has no place in the real world of science. I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator. What?? Creator?? What "actual evidence" do you have for that one? It baffles me that you can first attack evolution for a lack of evidence and then with a strait face write about a "creator". I’ll never understand how doublethink like that works.

You might like to start with just thinking.  You might improve with time-say millions and millions of years as in the fairy tales of goo to you by way of the zoo…

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While the evolutionary religionist fanatics…

…don’t exist, the living chicken tract is still too dumb to calculate 12 – 9. Plus, I-know-SHIT doesn’t have the balls to even try and answer to anyone who he knows is smarter than him (read: just about everyone outside the cults of the braindead). — TOP TEN SIGNS YOU’RE A (CHRISTIAN) FUNDAMENTALIST (found on www.evilbible.com) 10 – You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours. 9 – You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt. 8 – You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God. 7 – Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" — including women, children, and trees! 6 – You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky. 5 – You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a couple of generations old. 4 – You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs — though excluding those in all rival sects – will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving." 3 – While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity. 2 – You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God. 1 – You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history – but still call yourself a Christian.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Biological Duality While the evolutionary religionist fanatics insist that all creation is the result of materialistic naturalism and mechanical operation they overlook the real duality of biology.  When one examines every level of biological operation one sees(if they have an open and clear mind with which to see) the duality of matter AND information. No life can exist without the two together. There is no scientific evidence that the brain, or any individual cell within the brain, either was or could have been created by matter unassisted by pre-existing intelligence.  The pseudo-scientists who believe( a matter of shear faith-not supported by actual evidence) that natural selection made the brain do so not because of the evidence but in spite of the evidence.  And this is done in an attempt to pervert the actual facts.  This is indeed pseudo-science or scientism and has no place in the real world of science. I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.

        Does the hand of the Creator ever have any money in it for you, or is it enough to get bitch-slapped by Him? Paul

Response:

I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here.

???  Evolution is not a religion; it is an explanation for the development of land and life throughout the ages.  Astronomy, Geology and Biology all concur that the earth and life are billions of years old.  That makes it a religion???

Response:

I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here. ???  Evolution is not a religion; it is an explanation for the development of land and life throughout the ages.  Astronomy, Geology and Biology all concur that the earth and life are billions of years old.  That makes it a

religion??? It’s a religion because it cannot be proven. To believe in evolution is an act of faith.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here. ???  Evolution is not a religion; it is an explanation for the development of land and life throughout the ages.  Astronomy, Geology and Biology all concur that the earth and life are billions of years old.  That makes it a religion??? It’s a religion because it cannot be proven. To believe in evolution is an act of faith.

That is pure ignorance speaking.  Evolution *has* been proven, time and again.  There is no doubt that it occurs. Alberich

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here. ???  Evolution is not a religion; it is an explanation for the development of land and life throughout the ages.  Astronomy, Geology and Biology all concur that the earth and life are billions of years old.  That makes it a religion??? It’s a religion because it cannot be proven. To believe in evolution is an act of faith. That is pure ignorance speaking.  Evolution *has* been proven, time and again.  There is no doubt that it occurs. Alberich

You are the ignorant one if you think it’s been proven.

Response:

Biological Duality There is no scientific evidence that the brain, or any individual cell within the brain, either was or could have been created by matter unassisted by pre-existing intelligence.  The pseudo-scientists who believe( a matter of shear faith-not supported by actual evidence) that natural selection made the brain do so not because of the evidence but in spite of the evidence.  And this is done in an attempt to pervert the actual facts.  This is indeed pseudo-science or scientism and has no place in the real world of science.

there is no scientific evidence that the brain was created by a pre-existing intelligence. there is no scientific evidence that the pre-existing intelligence needs not another pre-existing intelligence for existing. the people who believe that a pre-existing intelligence made the brain do not so because of the evidence but in spite of the evidences. And this is done in an attempt to pervert the actuals facts, for fiting the reality with their religious beliefs. This is indeed pseudo-sciennce like ID has no place in the real world of the science. amazing like we can fit your critics to the evolution to your beliefs. don’t you see that you make a circular reasonement by explaining the human intelligence by another pre-existing intelligence?

Response:

Can you just imangine trying to tell and show a client, who is paying good money, that their project will work because we feel and believe it will without real scientific data and repeatable performance?

Imagine it?!  I can walk into a church any Sunday morning and witness that very thing. bogie (Damned irony meters.  No sooner do I get a replacement…..)

Response:

Biological Duality I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory

Just thought I’d help out here – you have a slight spelling mistake it should be – l a v a t o r y – I presume you need to employ people to help you evacuate your brains down the pan on a daily basis

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here. Yeah. Bet you produce all kinds of useful things. Like… hot air. And lawsuits. There’d be a quandary. Would you want to sue this alleged "lab" for discrimination? I mean, what if you *won? You’d… get the job…

Ack, good point ;p Robyn Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster #1557

Response:

says… I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here. Yeah. Bet you produce all kinds of useful things. Like… hot air. And lawsuits.

There’d be a quandary. Would you want to sue this alleged "lab" for discrimination? I mean, what if you *won? You’d… get the job… — Mark K. Bilbo  -  a.a. #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion "I think it’s the worst kept secret in Washington. That everybody – everybody I talk to in Washington has known and fully knows what [the neo-conservative] agenda was and what they were trying to do." [Retired General Anthony Zinni]

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Biological Duality While the evolutionary religionist fanatics insist that all creation is the result of materialistic naturalism and mechanical operation they overlook the real duality of biology.  When one examines every level of biological operation one sees(if they have an open and clear mind with which to see) the duality of matter AND information. No life can exist without the two together. There is no scientific evidence that the brain, or any individual cell within the brain, either was or could have been created by matter unassisted by pre-existing intelligence.  The pseudo-scientists who believe( a matter of shear faith-not supported by actual evidence) that natural selection made the brain do so not because of the evidence but in spite of the evidence.  And this is done in an attempt to pervert the actual facts.  This is indeed pseudo-science or scientism and has no place in the real world of science. I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here.  The reason is that they do not understand real science and that understanding is imperitive in my projects and business which is based on real scientific results that are observable, measureable and repeatable.  Can you just imangine trying to tell and show a client, who is paying good money, that their project will work because we feel and believe it will without real scientific data and repeatable performance?

This is the most lunatic raving I have seen in awhile.  While I steadfastly refuse to believe that you have any scientific training whatsoever, I find it even more remarkable that you would lie in such a bold-faced manner as to claim that you have a laboratory.   Further, had you a laboratory, you would have about a 99% likelihood of receiving federal funding in the form of some grants…  Were you to make belief in a creator versus acceptance of the facts of evolution one of the test questions in your interviews (besides being a complete moron), you would open yourself to immediate lawsuits.  As religious questions are proscribed by law in interviews, you would be breaking the law everytime you claim to ask such a question. I’m sorry, but you’ve gone too far.  There is no thinking person that can possibly believe this drivel you post, and you have "outed" yourself as a liar with your own idiocy. Alberich

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — [snip] I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here.  The reason is that they do not understand real science and that understanding is imperitive in my projects and business which is based on real scientific results that are observable, measureable and repeatable.  Can you just imangine trying to tell and show a client, who is paying good money, that their project will work because we feel and believe it will without real scientific data and repeatable performance? Sounds like a grand law suit waiting to happen. Is discrimination on grounds of religion illigal in the states? Never mind how badly the Bush clan WANT it to be legal, is it actually illegal now? The 1964 Civil Rights Act makes it illegal for employers to discriminate on the basis of "race, color, religion, or national origin" if they are supported by the government or engage in interstate commerce.  An exception exists, of course, for religious discrimination by religious institutions (although this may apply only to cases where the religious belief is necessary to do the job — e.g. one can refuse to hire a Buddhist as a professor of Christian theology at a seminary).  I think that other than such obvious cases, it is not legal even to ask about religion at a job interview or on employment applications (for covered firms, of course).

Actually that is a bad case. If the school takes federal money, including federal student loans, it probably can’t do that. I am sure that there are plenty of professors of theology in one religion who don’t hold that religion. Pastor/Rabbi/Priest is a different thing. [snip] Now, this suggests three possible grounds why IKHDY’s policy may not be a law suit waiting to happen.  His laboratory is part of some religious school, and exempt from the policy.  His laboratory may be some very tiny operation whose activities are limited to one state, and barely noticed by it (a lot of government regulations apply only to employers with more than some minimal number of employees).  Or (and extreme case of #2), his laboratory may not, technically, exist, which would make it immune, by most understandings, from either Federal or state regulation.

Anyone, anyone at all, who thinks that case 3, the lab does not exist, is not the actual state of affairs? Anyone at all believe him?

Response:

In a message sent ’round the world, IKnowHimDoYou poured fuel on the fire with the following: Biological Duality

… When one examines every level of biological operation one sees(if they have an open and clear mind with which to see) …

Translation: I cannot support this assertion. … There is no scientific evidence that the brain, or any individual cell within the brain, either was or could have been created by matter unassisted by pre-existing intelligence.

And you cannot produce any scientific evidence or logical argument to the contrary. The pseudo-scientists who believe( a matter of shear faith-not supported by actual evidence) that natural selection made the brain do so not because of the evidence but in spite of the evidence.

Produce the evidence. …   Regards,    Josef Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and  I’m not sure about the former.         —  Einstein

Response:

Biological Duality While the evolutionary religionist fanatics insist that all creation is the result of materialistic naturalism and mechanical operation they overlook the real duality of biology.  When one examines every level of biological operation one sees(if they have an open and clear mind with which to see) the duality of matter AND information. No life can exist without the two together.

Do you know of any examples anywhere of information that somehow exists without matter? There is no scientific evidence that the brain, or any individual cell within the brain, either was or could have been created by matter unassisted by pre-existing intelligence.

And, yet, we can actually see cells divide without any intelligent input. The pseudo-scientists who believe( a matter of shear faith-not supported by actual evidence) that natural selection made the brain do so not because of the evidence but in spite of the evidence.  And this is done in an attempt to pervert the actual facts.  This is indeed pseudo-science or scientism and has no place in the real world of science. I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory

What lab is this? What field? You bring up your personal expertise so you certainly should be willing to give us some background. to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  

So you discriminate based on religion. I can see why you probably don’t want to tell us what lab it is that you supposedly have. Tell us what state and we can look up the employment discrimination lawsuits. BTW, I bet you do not run a biology lab. If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here.  The reason is that they do not understand real science and that understanding is imperitive in my projects and business which is based on real scientific results that are observable, measureable and repeatable.  

Funny how the oil and pharmaceutical industry have a different practice. They actually use evolution based results in their work. Can you just imangine trying to tell and show a client, who is paying good money, that their project will work because we feel and believe it will without real scientific data and repeatable performance?

I am sure you can imagine this. You imagined your lab. BTW, any creationists out there how think he actually has a lab? Any creationists or Christians who think he is telling the truth? If not, any creationists willing to stand up and object to his lying for Jesus?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Biological Duality While the evolutionary religionist fanatics insist that all creation is the result of materialistic naturalism and mechanical operation they overlook the real duality of biology.  When one examines every level of biological operation one sees(if they have an open and clear mind with which to see) the duality of matter AND information. No life can exist without the two together. Do you know of any examples anywhere of information that somehow exists without matter? There is no scientific evidence that the brain, or any individual cell within the brain, either was or could have been created by matter unassisted by pre-existing intelligence. And, yet, we can actually see cells divide without any intelligent input. The pseudo-scientists who believe( a matter of shear faith-not supported by actual evidence) that natural selection made the brain do so not because of the evidence but in spite of the evidence.  And this is done in an attempt to pervert the actual facts.  This is indeed pseudo-science or scientism and has no place in the real world of science. I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory What lab is this? What field? You bring up your personal expertise so you certainly should be willing to give us some background. to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.   So you discriminate based on religion. I can see why you probably don’t want to tell us what lab it is that you supposedly have. Tell us what state and we can look up the employment discrimination lawsuits. BTW, I bet you do not run a biology lab. If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here.  The reason is that they do not understand real science and that understanding is imperitive in my projects and business which is based on real scientific results that are observable, measureable and repeatable.   Funny how the oil and pharmaceutical industry have a different practice. They actually use evolution based results in their work. Can you just imangine trying to tell and show a client, who is paying good money, that their project will work because we feel and believe it will without real scientific data and repeatable performance? I am sure you can imagine this. You imagined your lab. BTW, any creationists out there how think he actually has a lab? Any creationists or Christians who think he is telling the truth? If not, any creationists willing to stand up and object to his lying for Jesus?

I choked on his claim to run a lab. With his level of expertise and competence, I *could* see him as a kind of Dilbert-inspired "pointy-haired boss", though. He clearly knows nothing about what he is talking about. I am not a creationist. I am, however, a Christian. And I *do* object to his constant and persistent lies in the name of God. I personally believe this is either another lie or another plagarism (which is essentially the same thing). However, if he is actually telling the truth for once in his life, I would be interested in knowing how his staff manages to compensate for his incompetence. Regards, Raymond E. Griffith

Response:

Biological Duality While the evolutionary religionist fanatics insist that all creation is the result of materialistic naturalism and mechanical operation they overlook the real duality of biology.  When one examines every level of biological operation one sees(if they have an open and clear mind with which to see) the duality of matter AND information. No life can exist without the two together. There is no scientific evidence that the brain, or any individual cell within the brain, either was or could have been created by matter unassisted by pre-existing intelligence.  The pseudo-scientists who believe( a matter of shear faith-not supported by actual evidence) that natural selection made the brain do so not because of the evidence but in spite of the evidence.  And this is done in an attempt to pervert the actual facts.  This is indeed pseudo-science or scientism and has no place in the real world of science. I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here.  The reason is that they do not understand real science and that understanding is imperitive in my projects and business which is based on real scientific results that are observable, measureable and repeatable.  Can you just imangine trying to tell and show a client, who is paying good money, that their project will work because we feel and believe it will without real scientific data and repeatable performance?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Biological Duality While the evolutionary religionist fanatics insist that all creation is the result of materialistic naturalism and mechanical operation they overlook the real duality of biology.  When one examines every level of biological operation one sees(if they have an open and clear mind with which to see) the duality of matter AND information. No life can exist without the two together. There is no scientific evidence that the brain, or any individual cell within the brain, either was or could have been created by matter unassisted by pre-existing intelligence.  The pseudo-scientists who believe( a matter of shear faith-not supported by actual evidence) that natural selection made the brain do so not because of the evidence but in spite of the evidence.  And this is done in an attempt to pervert the actual facts.  This is indeed pseudo-science or scientism and has no place in the real world of science. I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here.  The reason is that they do not understand real science and that understanding is imperitive in my projects and business which is based on real scientific results that are observable, measureable and repeatable.  Can you just imangine trying to tell and show a client, who is paying good money, that their project will work because we feel and believe it will without real scientific data and repeatable performance?

Sounds like a grand law suit waiting to happen.

Response:

I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here.

Yeah. Bet you produce all kinds of useful things. Like… hot air. — Mark K. Bilbo  -  a.a. #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion "Being surprised at the fact that the universe is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being surprised at how well it fits its hole" [Douglas Adams]

Response:

I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here. Yeah. Bet you produce all kinds of useful things. Like… hot air.

It still gives me teh roffles to see this pinhead try to impeach the credibility of evolution by calling it a religion… I guess even theists realize that religion is the epitome of bullshit. — Dave W a.a.#1967

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — [snip] I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here.  The reason is that they do not understand real science and that understanding is imperitive in my projects and business which is based on real scientific results that are observable, measureable and repeatable.  Can you just imangine trying to tell and show a client, who is paying good money, that their project will work because we feel and believe it will without real scientific data and repeatable performance? Sounds like a grand law suit waiting to happen. Is discrimination on grounds of religion illigal in the states? Never mind how badly the Bush clan WANT it to be legal, is it actually illegal now?

The 1964 Civil Rights Act makes it illegal for employers to discriminate on the basis of "race, color, religion, or national origin" if they are supported by the government or engage in interstate commerce.  An exception exists, of course, for religious discrimination by religious institutions (although this may apply only to cases where the religious belief is necessary to do the job — e.g. one can refuse to hire a Buddhist as a professor of Christian theology at a seminary).  I think that other than such obvious cases, it is not legal even to ask about religion at a job interview or on employment applications (for covered firms, of course). Most (all?) states also have civil rights laws of their own, which don’t require interstate commerce (the Federal government’s constitutional power to regulate business is largely limited to regulating commerce between the constituent states of the U.S., and occasionally Federal laws have been overturned by the Supreme Court because the regulated conduct impacts such commerce only theoretically and remotely — e.g. carrying a gun within 1000 feet of a local school). Now, this suggests three possible grounds why IKHDY’s policy may not be a law suit waiting to happen.  His laboratory is part of some religious school, and exempt from the policy.  His laboratory may be some very tiny operation whose activities are limited to one state, and barely noticed by it (a lot of government regulations apply only to employers with more than some minimal number of employees).  Or (and extreme case of #2), his laboratory may not, technically, exist, which would make it immune, by most understandings, from either Federal or state regulation. If so, someone should find out who Iknowhimdoyou is, and sue his ass. — Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21) W. Syme (pseudonym), European, non-native English speaker, "soft" atheist. Email will not be read.

– Steven J.

Response:

says… I make it a practice to test each potential employee that will work in my laboratory to see if they practice the religion of evolution or know the hand of the Creator.  If they subscribe to the fairy tales of evolution they will not work here. Yeah. Bet you produce all kinds of useful things. Like… hot air.

And lawsuits. Robyn Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster #1557

Response:

no difference between word and thought

Question:

The self is clothed in form; it is deluded in the world of illusion. Every time, however, that "thoughts contrary to yoga" are knowingly entertained, the self submerges itself still more in the illusory world and adds to the veil of ignorance. Every time that the "weight of the imagination" is thrown on the side of the real nature of the self and turned away from the world of the not-self, the illusion is lessened, the delusion becomes weakened, and ignorance is gradually superseded by knowledge. The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali – Book 2 – The Steps to Union

Knowledge is not an evil, or unknowable, it is from the self aligning with the cosmos. There is but one energy, One God all things like the circle flow back onto god. Those who seek to control the flow for personal gain break Karma. Those who flow share the glow of the moment. In sharing the word we gain an insight all learn and that which is Phata grows as do we.

Response:

The self is clothed in form; it is deluded in the world of illusion. Every time, however, that "thoughts contrary to yoga" are knowingly entertained, the self submerges itself still more in the illusory world and adds to the veil of ignorance. Every time that the "weight of the imagination" is thrown on the side of the real nature of the self and turned away from the world of the not-self, the illusion is lessened, the delusion becomes weakened, and ignorance is gradually superseded by knowledge. The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali – Book 2 – The Steps to Union http://beaskund.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/patanjali/patanjali-bk2-34.html So those of us who want to, will strive to remember always to say yes to our higher Self, and no to the lower self! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Responsibility for thoughts has to be realized. Formerly, one was responsible for action; later the significance of the word was understood; and now it is time to know the conflagration of thought. It is better to learn silence and to purify one’s thoughts. Can the roar of a tiger possibly be worse than treacherous thinking? Not only for its actions but also for its thinking does humanity accumulate a grave karma. Thought inflicts tortures on the spirit, for there is no difference between word and thought. A fool is he who will take this warning for a threat. There is no threat?We have only examples, and cares. Each one is free to jump into the abyss, but he must be forewarned. I consider that now there is no need to repeat more about the significance of thought. Although the time is sordid we had better think about the future. Leaves Of Morya’s Garden Book Two http://agniyoga.org/ay_frame.html?app_id=LMG2 Thoughts contrary to yoga are harmfulness, falsehood, theft, incontinence, and avarice, whether committed personally, caused to be committed or approved of, whether arising from avarice, anger or delusion (ignorance); whether slight in the doing, middling or great. These result always in excessive pain and ignorance. For this reason, the contrary thoughts must be cultivated. The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali – Book 2 – The Steps to Union http://beaskund.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/patanjali/patanjali-bk2-34.html the truth will set us free

<snip I definately agree that thoughts can be either used for negative or positive actions in the future.  Thoughts should be positive and focused on the selfless path each of us as humans find to be our own.  IMO meditations should be focused on a goal…whether it is equanimity, compassion for the suffering, building self-confidence, etc.  It is good to meditate on such things by starting out relaxing and focusing on the breath and then once in the right mind frame focus single-mindedly on the positive energy you wish to invoke by thinking on certian concepts related to love, peace, or even meditating on the saints!  Its a great way to meditate that many buddhist practice. laterz

I agree with you on all except for focussing on the breath. I’ve read that that can cause problems. It’s my understanding that we should focus on the Ajna center – the chakra right behind the eyebrows. Thinking "AUM" tends to bring the attention there and everything else follows. It’s very good to visualize light streaming forth into the minds of people all over the planet. Here’s a pretty cool mantram: "Lead us from the unreal and to the real, so that we may do our whole duty as we journey to thy sacred feet."

Response:

Responsibility for thoughts has to be realized. Formerly, one was responsible for action; later the significance of the word was understood; and now it is time to know the conflagration of thought. It is better to learn silence and to purify one’s thoughts. Can the roar of a tiger possibly be worse than treacherous thinking? Not only for its actions but also for its thinking does humanity accumulate a grave karma. Thought inflicts tortures on the spirit, for there is no difference between word and thought. A fool is he who will take this warning for a threat. There is no threat