TM and Tantra Part II
Question:
To what detail is TM explained in the Shiva Sutras.
When are you going to read it? So, Barry, the term tantra means ‘techniques’, mantra, yantra, asana, and puja, etc. And, the tantras are textbooks of techniques, etc. So you’re a practicing Tantric Acharya? But you haven’t read any tantras and the one you read years ago contained neither mantra, yantra, asana, or puja. So, you can’t cite a single tantra and you haven’t revealed a single mantra or technique, yet you make status claims of being a devotee of Kali on the tantric path? Go figure. An excerpt from the Shiva Sutra, translated by Swami by Lakshmanjoo: 7. Devi, imagine the Sanskrit letters in these honey-filled foci of awareness, first as letters, then more subtly as sounds, then as most subtle feeling. Then, leaving them aside, be free. 14. Bathe in the center of sound, as in the continuous sound of a waterfall. Or, by putting fingers in ears, hear the sound of sounds. 19. Intone a sound audibly, then less and less audible as feeling deepens into this silent harmony. Work cited: ‘Zen Flesh, Zen Bones’ Centering by Paul Reps Charles Tuttle, 1968 http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/centering.htm
Response:
…the ‘tantras’ are textbooks of techniques, Wrong. Right – which one have you read?
You are so confused. Real tantrics do not teach from books. It is an oral tradition — period. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -How were these "textbooks" printed in the middle ages? The first known instance of writing in India appears on the Ashokan Pillar at Sarnath, circa 200 B.C. The earliest known Tantra, the Prajna Paramita Hridaya, was probably composed before the beginning of the Christian era. Many Sanskrit Tantras were transported to Tibet beginning in the 8th century – they were reproduced using wood blocks, an early form of printing in India and China. They weren’t. You are incorrect, Sir. We know from archaelogical and historical evidence that tantric texts were prepared in India from an early date. Mahanirvana Tantra, Hevajra Tantra, etc. There is evidence that the inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization (circa 3,500 B.C.) used a yantra, a diagramatical textbook, as a mnemonic device.
Perhaps philosophies but you won’t learn tantra techniques from those. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The word "garanth" means book alright but they were passed down orally. The word ‘tantra’ in Sanskrit means a ‘textbook of techniques’ – the Tantras. From the root word ‘tan’, a thread, like a suture, and ‘tra’, a tool for thinking. A tantra usually contains instructions on bija-mantra use, yantra, mudra, puja, and sadhana. They are very common in India, Tibet and in China. Tantric textbooks can be oral OR written down. The most popular Agama in India is the Srimad Bhagwatam, an oral history of Bharatvarsh, composed by Vyasa, who lived thousands of years ago in the Himalayas, but it wasn’t written down until the Gupta Age. The Rig Veda is an oral textbook and it was composed before 1500 B.C., but it probably wasn’t written down until the invention of Sanskrit by Pannini in the 2nd century B.C.
You are still confused. We don’t use books to teach tantra. We recommend books *about* tantra so a practitioner can get an idea of the teaching. Likewise with the philosophy. You can’t learn tantra from a book. I didn’t say you could, Barry, but, it all depends on what you mean by ‘tantra’. You can’t seem to be able to define your terms very well. What would be the point of composing thousands of tantras if they weren’t manuals used for instruction?
Who knows? In some cases writing were so the court tantric could keep his job. If he produced a lot rambling or flowery words describing what was experiencing then the king would keep him on unchallenged by another tantric who may not have had the time or means to produces such works. Much of it is just intellectualizing on something very simple. I am learning directly from a tantric master. Maybe so, but how can she remember all the thousands of instructions for practicing tantric sadhanas? Even His Holiness the Dalai Lama of Tibet has to sometimes refer to a textbook – even he can’t remember all the words to the Kalachakra puja!
It is a he. It is allowable to write down the instructions but they are still kept secret. Yes, I’ve seen priest read the Navagraha puja because they don’t have it memorized. But these *do not* constitute a textbook. If you think so then you are using a *broad* definition. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The practice of TM 2 x 20 is pure tantra. So you believe. The practice of TM isn’t based on a belief system – it’s an applied practicum based on the science of energy conservation. The practice of TM, which utilizes bija-mantra techniques in order to realize Man’s essential nature, is essentialy tantric in practice. The TM technique is described in the Shiva Sutra, which was spoken by Lord Shiva himself; it’s described in the Mandukya Karika by Gaudapada, who was an acknowledged Tantric Master; and TM is fully explained by the Adi Shankaracharya in his his numerous comments on Yoga Sutras and in his tantric texts such as Dakshinamurti Stotram and in Saundaryalahari.
Do you practice TM anymore? To what detail is TM explained in the Shiva Sutras. What is probably described is just "yogic meditation." TM is just a popular (or once popular) version of it. There is no other knowledge higher than the Sri Vidya – Absolute Knowledge.
And Ford makes the best car on the road? Some people believe they are going to soon fly up into the skies naked. Mostly Tantrics, Alchemists, and Yogis. : )
Wrong — the Rapture Right thinks that. You believe that too? It doesn’t matter what I believe – it all depends on the facts on the ground. Whatever goes up must come down and that’s the natural law of causation. How you rise up is a matter of tantric technique – in other words, Tantra.
Broad definition which shows you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Response:
Willy keeps posting the same old tired clippings Barry – Well, I can’t hold a candle to all your cogent postings. But, why do all yours begin with RE: and end on one line?
Brevity is the essence of wisdom. While you were posting all those ‘me toos’, I wrote a whole book. ROTFL!!! I’m sure you did. Now pick yourself off the floor and tell us the name of your publisher? showing he knows nothing about tantra Get a grip – you haven’t even defined "tantra", other than to point out that the word may mean a thread or string in Sanskrit, which I pointed out here years ago. You do read the archives, right?
You claimed something else. and probably doesn’t even understand what he posts. It’s simple: the ‘tantras’ are textbooks of techniques, composed by the Siddhas of Medieval India; texts such as Kularnava, Bhairavi, and Hevajra. That’s what the word tantra means – a textbook, Barry. You have read the tantras, right?
Wrong. How were these "textbooks" printed in the middle ages? They weren’t. The word "garanth" means book alright but they were passed down orally. You can’t learn tantra from a book. I am learning directly from a tantric master. Of course he is NOT a tantric so what would he know? The practice of TM 2 x 20 is pure tantra. There is no other knowledge higher than the Sri Vidya – Absolute Knowledge.
So you believe. Some people believe they are going to soon fly up into the skies naked. You believe that too? I would rather see in his own words what he knows about tantra not a bunch of articles he has culled from the Internet. These are my own words, Moron – the articles are just the references and the works cited. And, this is the Internet. D’oh!
So you are the Homer Simpson of tantra? In this case he actually ought to *read* the article he referenced (which does not mention TM). The TM technique IS tantra – it’s mentioned numerous times in the Vedic literature and in the Yoga Sutras. I can point to numerous Tantras, both Hindu and Buddhist, which describes the TM technique in detail.
No, TM is yogic meditation. There is some teaching of right hand tantra involved but TM’ers are not tantrics. That’s a whole different story. One can construe a lot of things from the sutras. I *AM* a tantric and I can tell you that tantra is as diverse as there are regions and villages in India. Maybe so, but you haven’t demonstrated any Tantric knowledge or revealed any Tantric secret practices.
They wouldn’t be secret if I revealed them, right? I have written on some of the standard *Indian* tantric siddhis. Maybe you were out prairie dog hunting and missed them. Shri Vidya is ONLY one form of tantra. The Sri Vidya cult is one of the most popular forms of Tantricism in all India and TM is the most popular form of meditation. Millions of people, all over India, worship the Sri Vidya and meditate on the TM bija mantras.
In a country of over a billion people one can easily make a statement that millions practice some specific path BUT if you had ever actually visited India you would know that about 85% of those people do so "in name only." It is a fact that all the Shankaracharyas agree that the Saraswati Dasanamis worship the Sri Vidya. It is also a fact that the Sri Chakra, is ensconced on the mandir at both Dwarka, Kanchi, and the Sringeri Mathas. It is also a fact that all the Adwaita Sannyasins claim that Adi Shankara established four mathas as seats of learning and for the worship of Sri Vidya. According to the Shankaracharya of Sringeri, the Adi Shankara placed the Sri Chakra, symbol of Tripurasundari, with the TM mantras inscribed thereon, at each of the seats of learning – Jyotirmath, Dwarka, Puri, Srigeri and Kanchi.
So you espouse Sri Vidya. Some folks espouse Vishnaiva tantra. Some people espouse Sufi tantra. Some folks espouse Tibetan tantra. Some folks espouse Jain tantra. Some folks espouse Bengali tantra. Yada, yada, yada. Welcome to Willy’s tantra shack.
Response:
…the ‘tantras’ are textbooks of techniques, Wrong.
Right – which one have you read? How were these "textbooks" printed in the middle ages?
The first known instance of writing in India appears on the Ashokan Pillar at Sarnath, circa 200 B.C. The earliest known Tantra, the Prajna Paramita Hridaya, was probably composed before the beginning of the Christian era. Many Sanskrit Tantras were transported to Tibet beginning in the 8th century – they were reproduced using wood blocks, an early form of printing in India and China. They weren’t.
You are incorrect, Sir. We know from archaelogical and historical evidence that tantric texts were prepared in India from an early date. Mahanirvana Tantra, Hevajra Tantra, etc. There is evidence that the inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization (circa 3,500 B.C.) used a yantra, a diagramatical textbook, as a mnemonic device. The word "garanth" means book alright but they were passed down orally.
The word ‘tantra’ in Sanskrit means a ‘textbook of techniques’ – the Tantras. From the root word ‘tan’, a thread, like a suture, and ‘tra’, a tool for thinking. A tantra usually contains instructions on bija-mantra use, yantra, mudra, puja, and sadhana. They are very common in India, Tibet and in China. Tantric textbooks can be oral OR written down. The most popular Agama in India is the Srimad Bhagwatam, an oral history of Bharatvarsh, composed by Vyasa, who lived thousands of years ago in the Himalayas, but it wasn’t written down until the Gupta Age. The Rig Veda is an oral textbook and it was composed before 1500 B.C., but it probably wasn’t written down until the invention of Sanskrit by Pannini in the 2nd century B.C. You can’t learn tantra from a book.
I didn’t say you could, Barry, but, it all depends on what you mean by ‘tantra’. You can’t seem to be able to define your terms very well. What would be the point of composing thousands of tantras if they weren’t manuals used for instruction? I am learning directly from a tantric master.
Maybe so, but how can she remember all the thousands of instructions for practicing tantric sadhanas? Even His Holiness the Dalai Lama of Tibet has to sometimes refer to a textbook – even he can’t remember all the words to the Kalachakra puja! The practice of TM 2 x 20 is pure tantra. So you believe.
The practice of TM isn’t based on a belief system – it’s an applied practicum based on the science of energy conservation. The practice of TM, which utilizes bija-mantra techniques in order to realize Man’s essential nature, is essentialy tantric in practice. The TM technique is described in the Shiva Sutra, which was spoken by Lord Shiva himself; it’s described in the Mandukya Karika by Gaudapada, who was an acknowledged Tantric Master; and TM is fully explained by the Adi Shankaracharya in his his numerous comments on Yoga Sutras and in his tantric texts such as Dakshinamurti Stotram and in Saundaryalahari. There is no other knowledge higher than the Sri Vidya – Absolute Knowledge. Some people believe they are going to soon fly up into the skies naked.
Mostly Tantrics, Alchemists, and Yogis. : ) You believe that too?
It doesn’t matter what I believe – it all depends on the facts on the ground. Whatever goes up must come down and that’s the natural law of causation. How you rise up is a matter of tantric technique – in other words, Tantra.
Response:
Willy keeps posting the same old tired clippings showing he knows nothing about tantra and probably doesn’t even understand what he posts. Of course he is NOT a tantric so what would he know? I would rather see in his own words what he knows about tantra not a bunch of articles he has culled from the Internet. In this case he actually ought to *read* the article he referenced (which does not mention TM). I *AM* a tantric and I can tell you that tantra is as diverse as there are regions and villages in India. Shri Vidya is ONLY one form of tantra. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TM and Tantra Part II This essay has been uploaded for easy reading: http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/sri-vidya.htm Sri Vidya The worship of Shri Vidya has been popular in India from very ancient times. Swami Gaudapada, the teacher of Shankaracharya, was a worshiper of Sri Vidya. Following his initiation Swami Shankaracharya wrote a lucid ode to Shri Vidya, the Saundariya Lahari, a translation of which is now available in English. Many desciples of Shankaracharya were worshipers of Sri Vidya such as Sureshvara, Padmapada, Vidyaranya and the brother of Chaitanya, Nityanand, Abhinavagupta, and our own Swami Brahmanand Saraswati. It is known to a galaxy of devotees that Swami Krishnanand Saraswati of Sringeri was the teacher of Guru Dev, who was himself a worshiper of Sri Vidya. The Srividya is described as a mnemonic device used for meditation practice and it derives from the Buddhist tantric practices which utilize mantra, yantra, and dharani. The Shri Yantra is a graphical representation of the TM bija-mantras, and it was invented in the fifth century in Bengal at the beginning of the Gupta era by the Sahajiyas or Baulas. In fact, any device can be used for meditation, a word, a diagram – even the word "mic" or "one". However, it has been found through experience over many years that certain sounds are more beneficial than others. At any rate, the use of the Sri Yantra is a purely mental technique – it’s been termed a visualization excercise by Swami Ageananda Bharati. Sound The letters of the vidya are Nada, or sound, and the absolute, and end as uttered sound. When charged with the consciousness of the Fourth these mere letters become mantra. Otherwise, words continually delude. The 16th syllable of the vidya also represents the Fourth. This Fourth is Kamakala. Beyond it is the Ultimate Absolute (Atiturya – beyond the Fourth), and beyond any sort of description. http://www.hubcom.com/magee/tantra/tripura.htm
Response:
Willy keeps posting the same old tired clippings
Barry – Well, I can’t hold a candle to all your cogent postings. But, why do all yours begin with RE: and end on one line? While you were posting all those ‘me toos’, I wrote a whole book. ROTFL!!! showing he knows nothing about tantra
Get a grip – you haven’t even defined "tantra", other than to point out that the word may mean a thread or string in Sanskrit, which I pointed out here years ago. You do read the archives, right? and probably doesn’t even understand what he posts.
It’s simple: the ‘tantras’ are textbooks of techniques, composed by the Siddhas of Medieval India; texts such as Kularnava, Bhairavi, and Hevajra. That’s what the word tantra means – a textbook, Barry. You have read the tantras, right? Of course he is NOT a tantric so what would he know?
The practice of TM 2 x 20 is pure tantra. There is no other knowledge higher than the Sri Vidya – Absolute Knowledge. I would rather see in his own words what he knows about tantra not a bunch of articles he has culled from the Internet.
These are my own words, Moron – the articles are just the references and the works cited. And, this is the Internet. D’oh! In this case he actually ought to *read* the article he referenced (which does not mention TM).
The TM technique IS tantra – it’s mentioned numerous times in the Vedic literature and in the Yoga Sutras. I can point to numerous Tantras, both Hindu and Buddhist, which describes the TM technique in detail. I *AM* a tantric and I can tell you that tantra is as diverse as there are regions and villages in India.
Maybe so, but you haven’t demonstrated any Tantric knowledge or revealed any Tantric secret practices. Shri Vidya is ONLY one form of tantra.
The Sri Vidya cult is one of the most popular forms of Tantricism in all India and TM is the most popular form of meditation. Millions of people, all over India, worship the Sri Vidya and meditate on the TM bija mantras. It is a fact that all the Shankaracharyas agree that the Saraswati Dasanamis worship the Sri Vidya. It is also a fact that the Sri Chakra, is ensconced on the mandir at both Dwarka, Kanchi, and the Sringeri Mathas. It is also a fact that all the Adwaita Sannyasins claim that Adi Shankara established four mathas as seats of learning and for the worship of Sri Vidya. According to the Shankaracharya of Sringeri, the Adi Shankara placed the Sri Chakra, symbol of Tripurasundari, with the TM mantras inscribed thereon, at each of the seats of learning – Jyotirmath, Dwarka, Puri, Srigeri and Kanchi.
Response:
TM and Tantra Part II This essay has been uploaded for easy reading: http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/sri-vidya.htm Sri Vidya The worship of Shri Vidya has been popular in India from very ancient times. Swami Gaudapada, the teacher of Shankaracharya, was a worshiper of Sri Vidya. Following his initiation Swami Shankaracharya wrote a lucid ode to Shri Vidya, the Saundariya Lahari, a translation of which is now available in English. Many desciples of Shankaracharya were worshipers of Sri Vidya such as Sureshvara, Padmapada, Vidyaranya and the brother of Chaitanya, Nityanand, Abhinavagupta, and our own Swami Brahmanand Saraswati. It is known to a galaxy of devotees that Swami Krishnanand Saraswati of Sringeri was the teacher of Guru Dev, who was himself a worshiper of Sri Vidya. The Srividya is described as a mnemonic device used for meditation practice and it derives from the Buddhist tantric practices which utilize mantra, yantra, and dharani. The Shri Yantra is a graphical representation of the TM bija-mantras, and it was invented in the fifth century in Bengal at the beginning of the Gupta era by the Sahajiyas or Baulas. In fact, any device can be used for meditation, a word, a diagram – even the word "mic" or "one". However, it has been found through experience over many years that certain sounds are more beneficial than others. At any rate, the use of the Sri Yantra is a purely mental technique – it’s been termed a visualization excercise by Swami Ageananda Bharati. Sound The letters of the vidya are Nada, or sound, and the absolute, and end as uttered sound. When charged with the consciousness of the Fourth these mere letters become mantra. Otherwise, words continually delude. The 16th syllable of the vidya also represents the Fourth. This Fourth is Kamakala. Beyond it is the Ultimate Absolute (Atiturya – beyond the Fourth), and beyond any sort of description. http://www.hubcom.com/magee/tantra/tripura.htm
