Third Attack on India Church Sparks Concern

Question:

Wednesday

Prong Collars, good collar in the right hands?

Question:

Wince? Is that anything like CRINGE? HOWE COME might you WINce at a Whippet wearin your GENTLE PRONGES? THAT doesn’t FIT with INTELLIGENT EFFECTIVE DECENT HUMANE ETHICAL dog trainin. DOES IT. If a method or device ain’t good for EVERY dog it AIN’T good for ANY dog. IS IT. The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~  )  

Hm. I don’t think I’d describe Whippets as "small and delicate"; are you sure you aren’t confusing them with Italian Greyhounds?? No, I know what whippets are.  They’re not tiny dogs, but I do think of them as small. I will sometimes recommend a prong for a big, strong,

heavy-necked dog who is – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – pulling hard enough to be dangerous (i.e., knock somebody off their feet, pull the leash out of their hands).  And I’ll try a GL first.  I just don’t see a prong collar as the first tool of choice with a dog like a whippet.  Maybe their necks aren’t as delicate and thin-skinned as they appear, but the thought of a prong around one of them kinda makes me wince. Canine Action Dog Trainer http://www.canineaction.com My Kids, My Students, My Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html

Response:

HOWEDY sinofabitch,

I’m not entirely anti-prong (if used correctly),

Seems we just FIGGERED IT HOWE, that there AIN’T no way noHOWE to pupperly HURT and INTIMIDATE a dog to naturally want to do every thing we ask. but I can’t fathom why it would be needed

Larry aka TooCool EXXXPLAINED THAT.  on a dog so small and delicate.

A dog is a dog.   Hm. I don’t think I’d describe Whippets as "small and delicate"; are you sure you aren’t confusing them with Italian Greyhounds??

All life is SMALL and DELICATE.   AKC standard is for up to 22" tall, and despite their fine-boned appearance, they WERE originally working dogs. IIRC, the AKC website description of  them includes the word "tough"…. <going off to look  it up… Yep- from the AKC website: "The Whippet is a hardy, tough, swift and powerful athlete".

Oh. So THAT means you can HURT IT when you run HOWETA information ideas and METHODS to effectively handle and train them.  As far as the OP’s question goes, it’s hard to tell if s/he is asking about prongs in general,

You mean to use on dogs. or as specifically applies to Whippets and/or sighthounds.

You mean rather than to be used as a hanger for plants or a tie DHOWEN  for a pack on your motorcycle?   I think they could work quite well-

INDEED. As a tie DHOWEN or planter hanger. certainly better than a slip/choke collar –

Or a sharp stick in the eye or shocking It. The CHOICE is kinda like opting for dying from cancer Vs Ebola cause you’ll have MOORE time to ENJOY LIFE, Vs dyin from Ebola which takes life quickly and withHOWET SUFFERING. if fitted and used correctly;

Rather than just ordinary CHOKING shocking ear pinching twisting scruff shaking and locking IT in a box for a time HOWET.  however, given the very fine coat some Whippets have,

A dog is a dog.  I’d be inclined to suggest that investing in the rubber tips for the prongs would be a good idea.

So the gentle prongs won’t muss the delicate coat of a "hardy, tough, swift and powerful athlete."   I’ll also comment that my overly-sensitive lurcher

HOWE might we know if HOWER dogs are OVERLY SENSITIVE? isn’t bothered in the slightest by a prong.

HOWE COME would they? They’re NOT the midevil torture devices the uneduated masses think they are. OtherWIZE, you’d see the dog struggle and fight them, rather than happily look forward to a walk in the park: sinofabitch writes: What I have said- repeatedly – is that he took posts from two different people, took pieces of them out of context, cobbled them together, then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly." and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which is exactly what he did. The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context, and Jerry’s faked "quote" is downright meaningless. Here’s Jerry’s version   "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My    Right Arm  Over The Lab’s Shoulder,    Grabbed Her Opposite  Foot With My    Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,    Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into    Her Throat  And Said "GRRRR!" And    Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch. Here’s yours;   "I dropped the leash, threw my   right arm over the Lab’s shoulder,   grabbed her opposite foot with my   left hand, rolled her on her side,   leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and   nipped her ear.   –Sara Sionnach

BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! That’s INSANE. Ain’t it. "When you get bagged for lying you’re MARKED FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard’s DADDY. BWEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!! Of curse if THAT fails he could always BURN BURN is dog with that shock collar he used to make his dog attack trees as his OCD anxiHOWESNESS relief mechanism. Is THIS HOWE BEAST FRIENDS handle and train CASH CUSTOMER’S BEAST FRIENDS?:

He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing.  He didn’t even blink an eye. Janet Boss

I can’t imagine needing anything higher than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG??? I can’t remember what model of Innotek I have, but I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

Jerking choking and shockin and lockin dogs in boxes and ignoring their cries makes their dogs go "EWWWW" but they don’t NOTICE EXXXCEPT to spray BINACA in their eyes and jerk and choke them on pronged spiked pinch choke collars and shock and spray MOORE aversives in their faces. Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL cause the SMELL LINGERS after the dog’s been sprayed in the face and the dog won’t know HOWE COME IT was MACED?  My dogs are not human children wearing fur- they are DOGS.

They’re DUMB ANIMALS these MENTALLY ILL LYING DOG ABUSERS HURT and MURDER.

"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in one shelter.)  But their ability to set their own schedules and duties causes a great deal of scheduling overhead. And it takes effort and thought to ensure that volunteers get the meaningful experience that they work for. Someone has to be responsible for that Volunteer Program, and it is best done by a non-volunteer." Lynn K. "I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed every adoptable dog on intake.  I frankly felt that the effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition. Should I have refused to groom them? Or even more pertinent – I was one of the people who had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter." Lynn K. Lynn, looks like he got you there if these quotes are true. In the posts below you take responsibility for making those calls. In your post above, you state you do not make those calls. Which one is it?

Here’s lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn’s PARTNER: "Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep The Pressure Up," sindy "don’t let the dog SCREAM" mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ’s pages on k9 web. You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY??? And here’s lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn herself: "Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution Will Adore His Owner." to a new foster care giver:   "For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and   pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it.   When he barks, use the line for a correction.   if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar,"– lynn k.                        WORDS OF WISDOM                  from our own Lynn Kosmakos   1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day                          For Twenty Years        I THINK I’M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM   "I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-depression)   requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every   day.   I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to learn   more, while happily sharing pertinent information   I have learned.  But if I were ever to post such sh*t,   I would hope that every other reader of this group   would be rightfully outraged."   "Community is an evolutionary thing that we earn    the right to participate in by observing the    easily understood rules and contributing to in    constructive ways."    Lynn K.   "It wasn’t that meds didn’t work for her   – she wouldn’t take them. I particularly remember   a comment she made about scarey side effects of   Lithium.  Hardly.  After 17 years on it, I think   I’m qualified to say that the very low risk of   any side effect is far less frightening than the   very real dangers of life without it."   Lynn K. "Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I’d Call It A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn’t HaveDone It If He Thought Solo Couldn’t Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie. You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER? "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And  Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few  Times It Happens, But You’ll Get Over It."mike duforth, author: "Courteous Canine." You think HURTIN dogs and CRINGING is COURTEOUS? "I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently as possible. What  does this mean?" Means the author is a dog abuser of the worst magnitude. "When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time, spray one squirt directly into the dog’s mouth and walk away. The dog won’t be too thrilled with this but just ignore him and continue your normal behavior."–Mike Dufort author of the zero selling book "Courteous Canines" You think HURTING your dog is NORMAL BEHAVIOR? LYNN K. and LOIS E, and a BiLateral, BiPolar conversation on Mental problems.  LYNN AND LOIS Almost 50 years on mental illness medications combined – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But I think what Lois was referring to was the fact that Darlene actually stated at some point that she was bipolar–and, IIRC, that meds did not work for her–so she was prone to major-league ups and downs and sudden enthusiasms..

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Response:

HOWEDY leah,

I’m currently researching for a project on whippets. I’m adding a section on prong collars and would like to know what your first thoughts are? Prong collar on a whippet???

You SEZ they DON’T HURT "if used pupperly." I’m not entirely anti-prong

You SEZ you don’t think it’s WIZE to use on a Whippett. HOWE COME?  HOWE COME you SEZ you’re "not ENTIRELY opposed" to HURTIN dogs to train them???" (if used correctly),

There AIN’T no way noHOWE to pupperly HURT your dog. but I can’t fathom why it would be needed on a dog so small and delicate.

For the same reason it ain’t needed for a big dog like The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s Great Danes an English Mastiffs. You can’t force or intimdate THEM enough to make them work. Canine Action Dog Trainer http://www.canineaction.com

Here’s your "MENTOR," you MENTAL CASE: "Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.   lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:   For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and   pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it.   When he barks, use the line for a correction. *(A correction? Like goin "Unh unh" or "Aak!? The correction leah uses is a sharp "Eh!")  - if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.   Lynn K. Is THIS HOWE BEAST FRIENDS handle and train CASH CUSTOMER’S BEAST FRIENDS?:

He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing.  He didn’t even blink an eye. Janet Boss

I can’t imagine needing anything higher than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG??? I can’t remember what model of Innotek I have, but I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

Jerking choking and shockin and lockin dogs in boxes and ignoring their cries makes their dogs go "EWWWW" but they don’t NOTICE EXXXCEPT to spray BINACA in their eyes and jerk and choke them on pronged spiked pinch choke collars and shock and spray MOORE aversives in their faces. Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL cause the SMELL LINGERS after the dog’s been sprayed in the face and the dog won’t know HOWE COME IT was MACED?  My dogs are not human children wearing fur- they are DOGS.

They’re DUMB ANIMALS these MENTALLY ILL LYING DOG ABUSERS HURT and MURDER. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And Sally responded: Who said that?  I would never do or recommend that, and neither would most of the regulars on here. Sally Hennessey I’ve posted my entire quote, since Patch failed to do so. Take it out of context and you’d think I was flinging puppies across the room! here’s what I said (keep in mind that we’re talking about a 12 week old ~25# FCR puppy):  A small scruff shake is appropriate if he’s very persistant.

  Um, may I suggest a re-wording that might make   it  clearer- given that "scruff shake" is too easily   misinterpreted as "pick the puppy up by the scruff   of the neck and shake the puppy in the air"?   I think I’d phrase it something like "if the puppy is very   persistant, it  can be appropriate to take hold of the   loose skin at the back of the neck and give a slight   shake to the *skin*".   Janet’s not talking about actually shaking   the puppy, which I think we ALL agree is   abusive." That’s INSANE. Ain’t it. So’s this, here’s professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research at UofWI marshall "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM "NO!" into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation" dermer: "At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function. But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases then you will have achieved too things. First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased; and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher. How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted biting. When our dog was a puppy,  "No" came before mild forms of punishment (I would hold my dog’s mouth closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above). "No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog" to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p. BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! That’s INSANE. Ain’t it. So you see, it really is beetter to just say NUTHIN. But NOT HERE abHOWETS. Either DEFEND your LIES and ABUSE or get the heel HOWETA The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Forums. ALL BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS ARE CAUSED BY MISHANDLING. Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture." We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions And GET BACK What We TAUGHT. In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS FAILURE MEANS DEATH. SAME SAME SAME SAME, For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.   "If You Talk With The Animals, They Will Talk With You                And You Will Know Each Other.    If You Do Not Talk To Them, You Will Not Know Them,         And What You Do Not Know You Will Fear.         What One Fears, One Destroys," Chief Dan         George,adapted with permission from his         FREE copy of The Puppy Wizard’s FREE         Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual.          "If you’ve got them by the balls their hearts                         and minds will follow,"                               John Wayne.                  The Puppy Wizard. <TPW{}; ~ }   sinofabitch writes: What I have said- repeatedly – is that he took posts from two different people, took pieces of them out of context, cobbled them together, then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly." and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which is exactly what he did. The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context, and Jerry’s faked "quote" is downright meaningless. Here’s Jerry’s version   "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My    Right Arm  Over The Lab’s Shoulder,    Grabbed Her Opposite  Foot With My    Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,    Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into    Her Throat  And Said "GRRRR!" And    Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch. Here’s yours;   "I dropped the leash, threw my   right arm over the Lab’s shoulder,   grabbed her opposite foot with my   left hand, rolled her on her side,   leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and   nipped her ear.   –Sara Sionnach

BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! That’s INSANE. Ain’t it. "When you get bagged for lying you’re MARKED FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard’s DADDY. BWEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!

"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in one shelter.)  But their ability to set their own schedules and duties causes a great deal of scheduling overhead. And it takes effort and thought to ensure that volunteers get the meaningful experience that they work for. Someone has to be responsible for that Volunteer Program, and it is best done by a non-volunteer." Lynn K. "I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed every adoptable dog on intake.  I frankly felt that the effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition. Should I have refused to groom them? Or even more pertinent – I was one of the people who had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter." Lynn K. Lynn, looks like he got you there if these quotes are true. In the posts below you take responsibility for making those calls. In your post above, you state you do not make those calls. Which one is it?

Here’s lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn’s PARTNER: "Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep The Pressure Up," sindy "don’t let the dog SCREAM" mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ’s pages on k9 web. You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY??? And here’s lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn herself: "Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution Will Adore His Owner." to a new foster care giver:   "For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and   pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it.   When he barks, use the line for a correction.   if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar,"– lynn k.                        WORDS OF WISDOM                  from our own Lynn Kosmakos   1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day                          For Twenty Years        I THINK I’M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM   "I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-depression)   requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every   day.   I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to learn   more, while happily sharing pertinent information   I have learned.  But if I were ever to post such sh*t,   I would hope that every other reader of this group   would be rightfully outraged."

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Response:

HOWEDY liea,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: I’m currently researching for a project on whippets. I’m adding a section on prong collars and would like to know what your first thoughts are? (As far as your problems, if any, with the collar goes) Thanks for your thoughts. Is your question only about prong collars on whippets, or prong collars on any dogs?

A dog is a dog, liea. Do you want to know my first thoughts about prong collars  when I’d never tried one,

You mean when your dog Cubbe first began TURNING ON YOU cause you was jerkin an chokin IT on your slip choke collar, liea? or my first thoughts when you bring up the question now?

You mean, after you became a certified MENTAL CASE?  I don’t have a whippet

Good thing, liea. You’d break every bone in its body.  and want to know if I should chime in here.

Perhaps you should just stick to your "OCCASIONAL" daily and weekly posts WARNING new readers to BEWARE The Amazing Puppy Wizard and your sage KILLFILE advice TO AVOID EMBARRASSMENT? –Lia

"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the whole cruelty thread again so I’ll state my opinion once and won’t defend it further: any method can be cruel for some dogs. Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the beginning, but we’ve come a long way since then. She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she’s been rewarded for coming, but she’s never been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming. Is it time for that? What might I look for to tell?" "I’d call the SHOCK fence effective and safe. Humane is one of those hot words that people can debate all day so I won’t touch that one. There are people who would call a regular chain link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

After talking with the vet yesterday and watching Cubbe all day today, I’m convinced that the shaking is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I’ll continue keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything up, I don’t see symptoms of anything neurological– and the vet agrees. –Lia

"Things are beginning to get much worse day by day and the vets seem unable to help. http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusMed.WMV http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusSmall.WMV" THAT’S AN OCD. His owner CAUSED IT by MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and ASYLUM ESCAPEES. HOWEDY liea,

I am bursting with pride over my little girl.

Well liea, perhaps your anti psychotic medications need rotating? Have you discussed your mood swings with your P-Doc?  As you all know, Cubbe  does not deal  well with intruders on her territory

You mean with invited guests in your HOWES, even those she’s known all her life, like your only best friend whom she attacked for standing in her SHOCK ZONE or them children she likeWIZE attacked for STANDING IN HER SHOCK ZONE like HOWE culprit aka kelly aka metta’s (metta is kelly aka culprit aka metta’s name on the CRAZY persons news groups so she’d not ostracized on NON CRAZY persons news groups) dogs MURDERED her own DEAD KAT for standing in THEIR shock zone as granville’s DEAD DOG attacked a child for standing next to a fence at the park whick RESEMBLED HER SHOCK ZONE. Are we begining to see a PATTON here abHOWETS, People? so I was uncertain how things would turn out

Well liea, based on your POSTED CASE HISTORY you have absolutely NO reason NOT to be CERTAIN cause dogs only respond in PREDICTABLE NORMAL NATURAL INNATE INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE ways to situations and circumstances of their environments which we create for them. ALL behavior problems are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.  when I had 3 guests for 3 days.

"Birds of a feather. You’re JUDGED by the company you keep. If you lie with pigs you’ll awaken STINKIN like ‘em," The Puppy Wizard’s DADDY.  Uncertain is the polite word;

It’d imperative to be polite no matter HOWE MUCH you HURT others and lie abHOWET it, liea. I was worried.

Perhaps THAT’S what’s triggered this most recent psychotic break from reality, eh liea?  I imagined spending 3 days with Cubbe on one side of the door and 3 guests on the other.

Won’t they allHOWE your dog in the mental ward, liea? Or are the P-Docs concerned that you might HURT her someMOORE in your disassociative state of mind?   I was prepared to drop her off at the   kennel if it got to be too much.

That WOULD be the WIZE thing to do under the circumstances, just goin by your CASE HISTORY, liea. When my college roommate

AMAZING, the kinda material they teach in college. Ain’t it. and friend of 30 years

AS STATED. arrived at the door with her 2 15 year old dog loving daughters, I put Cubbe on a leash, took her outside, let them put their overnight bags in the hallway  and asked them to turn around and walk Cubbe.  Each of them held the leash for part of the walk.

That’s nice! HOWEver, there’s MUCH MOORE effective ways to handle and train your dog not to be PSYCHOTIC like HOWE you taught her to be.  I went along and gave them each a  handful of biscuits to be tossed to  Cubbe at random.

Offering fear aggressive dogs like Cubbe bribes often makes them MOORE fearful and aggressive and could get someWON HURT, liea. That’s on accHOWENT of dogs is SCAVENGERS that STEAL scraps and run to hide to eat them with their backs to the wall in a heightened state of alert. The only advice I gave them on the walk was to hold the leash tightly and to go ahead and pull Cubbe in the direction we were going,

BWEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!! THAT’S INSANE, liea. That won’t teach your dog to TRUST them liea, that’ll teach her to FEAR them for hurting and forcing her. You ARE walkin her on your PRONG as you like to call it cause we know you can’t walk her withHOWET HURTIN HER. not to let Cubbe pull them where she wanted to go.

To make Cubbe very happy with her leisurely walk, eh liea? HOWE could your college friend allHOWE her kids to TRUST your judgemnt Ooops! Almost FORGOT… forget abHOWET that question.  This wasn’t a lesson in heeling for Cubbe

Good, cause Cubbe don’t heel anyHOWE.  or dog training for them.

Cubbe’s trainin consists of jumpin your WHINE rack and chasin a ball up an DHOWEN the cellar stairs.   This was a lesson in letting Cubbe   know they could be in charge.

You mean they was SUPPOSED TO HURT HER. "It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With Her Usual ZAP Collar – The 10 Year Old Child Went To Give Cubbe A Hug  She Gave A Snarl-Snap  Cubbe Got Out In The Neighborhood Leashless." By the time we got home, Cubbe accepted  them into the house with no barking.

SHAAAZZZAAAMMM? There was a tiny incident mid-day

Ooops! You mean, despite the pryor dominance trainin, leah??? when Rose got a little sentimental and tried making friends with Cubbe

Well THAT WOULD be a semiMENTAL thing to do, just based on her pryor CASE HISTORY. WOULDN’T IT, liea.  by cooing and extending a hand

To be friends.  with an aim towards petting Cubbe.

Kinda like in "The Hand That Rocked The Cradle." Cubbe gave a snarl, or a half snarl.

Your dog is FEARFUL cause you HURT her, liea.  It wasn’t much of a snarl;

THAT’S INSANE. What’s important is the THOUGHT pryor to any snarly aggression.  I’ve seen her deliver worse and still not bite.

Dogs "flash" like that HOWETA FEAR, not meanness.  I was there,

You attacked Cubbe like HOWE you done before when she tried to attack the little children she’d been playing with till they walked into her SHOCK ZONE. REMEMBER,liea?: "I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled, turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn’t frightened at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn’t realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub Cubbe’s belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all was fine." But we know better, don’t we, liea.  gently rolled Cubbe over for a belly rub

Yeah. Like this: "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab’s Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side, Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sionnach. and explained to Rose

You mean your mentally ill friend from "college." Lissen up, liea. JUST ON ACCHOWENT of you was in a university HOWEspital MENTAL INSTITUTE doesn’t MEAN you’re "IN COLLEGE." that we were walking a fine line,

You mean between mental illness and insanity, liea? That’s the only fine line you’re eligible for, lia.  that we wanted Cubbe to learn that nothing  bad happens to her when strangers are in the  house.

RIGHT!  Since Cubbe’s bad behaviors stem from fear,

Your dog Cubbe began TURNIN on you as soon as you started CHOKIN her, liea.  I don’t want to deliver harsh punishments

But you do and you will cause you’re a lying dog abusing mentally ill coward. that could make her more fearful.

"I’d call the SHOCK fence effective and safe. Humane is one of those hot words that people can debate all day so I won’t touch that one. There are people who would call a regular chain link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After talking with the vet yesterday and watching Cubbe all day today, I’m convinced that the shaking is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I’ll continue

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Response:

HOWEDY Rex,

Hello: I’m currently researching for a project on whippets. I’m adding a section on prong collars and would like to know what your first thoughts are?

Good idea.  They’re highly recommended. (As far as your problems, if any, with the collar goes)

They’re like P-HOWER steerin for dogs. Thanks for your thoughts.

HOWEDY professor SCRUFF SHAKE,

"buglady" Try to think like your dog.  Get up every day and be thankful, eat your breakfast and go out for a romp. Dogs don’t carry around a lot of heavy weight.

That so? As the former ever pupular sindy SADIST mooron WONce sez, "HOWE can we know WHAT a dog is THINKIN?"  They live in the now.  They don’t worry about whether or not something is going to work.

That so? The Amazing Puppy Wizard SEZ dogs got MOORE on their minds than you do. They don’t feel sorry for themselves.

You mean YOU don’t FEEL SORRY for THEM.  They just deal with what is in front of them.

You mean dogs DON’T THINK? buglady

Even a mosquito PLANS his attack.  And all of this sans Zen master!

Well, perhaps FAITH, FATE  and DESTINY got MOORE to do with it than meditations?  –Marshall

HOWEDY People, HOWEDY Soup, As we all know, after talking shocking HOWER dog lovers love most talkin abHOWET who not to talk to, moderating HOWER news groups, and barring that, offering killfile advice. Perhaps there’s a solution they’ve never thought of? If they was to declare these "mental persons only" news groups, decent people wouldn’t be offended by them hurting and murdering their best dogs and they’d know better than to post here abHOWETS and then it’ll just be me an you and the mental cases posting here abHOWETS anyMOORE. HOWE’S abHOWET that, do you think? Oh, bye the bye Soup? The mental persons list needs some minor updating. There’s a few loose screwballs who are posting here who’ve not complied with mental health safety and ng courtesy protocols. culprit aka kelly aka metta has some news to report abHOWET her mental illnesss and we’ve got a couple of self cutters and sexual sadists who’ve not been updated as of yet. PLEASE PEOPLE! Comply with the mental health care case history requiremets to avoid psychotic reactions from being mishandled by ordinarily sane persons who may think you’re able to handle the truth. Thank you, The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~  )   P.S.  In the interest of a drug free America The Amazing Puppy Wizard recommends SOME crazy persons with permission and supervision of their psy-docs should SLOWLY discontinue their anti psychotic medications in an effort to face the very real dangers of life withHOWET lithium… Perhap some meditation will heelp with the trainsition from chemical straight jackets to life in the real world withHOWET delusion: HOWEDY professor SCRUFF SHAKE,

] I know it’s tough while you’re worrying, but you ] will feel much better once she’s back home with you! ] Take it easy on yourself. ] ]Jess K. I’m with Jess!

You mean don’t worry abHOWET it. Why don’t you practice meditating as a way to deal with worrying?

Like you done? You’re a hypocrite, professor. Find a quiet place, assume a comfortable position,

INDEED. This is gonna hurt you just a little MOORE than it will The Amazing Puppy Wizard but it’s for your own good.  close your eyes and meditate.

Picture The Amazing Puppy Wizard EXXXPLAINING to the state board of education HOWE COME you don’t deserve to be teachin HOWER university kids to hurt and intimidate and bribe and murder animals. Consider, for example, the material here:

<snip link From your quasi religiHOWES site: "There are two types of meditation: analytical meditation and placement meditation. When we contemplate the meaning of a Dharma instruction that we have heard or read we are doing analytical meditation. By deeply contemplating the instruction, eventually we reach a conclusion or cause a specific virtuous state of mind to arise. This is the object of placement meditation. Having found our object through analytical meditation, we then concentrate on it single- pointedly for as long as possible to become deeply acquainted with it. This single-pointed concentration is placement meditation. Often, analytical meditation is called simply `contemplation’, and placement meditation simply `meditation’. Placement meditation depends upon contemplation, and contemplation depends upon listening to or reading Dharma instructions." Well THAT was nice professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM dermer. Try something scientific: Newsgroups: alt.aromatherapy Gotta put a plug in for my incense guru- very controversial figure, but one of the most dedicated to incense learning. Start with this link and go around to all his refs- it will be an education.  Hang onto your sox..www.oller.net/incense.html Enjoy the hot debates Sign on to the Alice’s Restaurant discussion group, wherein are archived a hellacious amount of material on incense. Let us know what you think.. — L Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking — Life does not always go smoothly

INDEEDY, professor SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM ‘NO!’ into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation" dermer.  so it is good to know

That there ain’t no Atheists in foxholes. how to "shut off" that little voice in your head

That little voice that sez your goose is cooked, professor? when it is not doing you any good.

Never too late to find religiHOWESNESS, is it, professor? At least, for as long as you’re in the foxhole. Especially after having receive a genuine MIRACLE like HOWE you done! Of curse, as a devHOWET Budhist you’ll wanna share the good news! It is very easy for a Jew to become an atheist because according to Jewish thought there is no physical entity that correponds to God. Moreover, although Jews may pray that God be compassionate and just, attributing such features to God limits his omnipotence. That is, if God is just then God is limited in the sense that he/she/it cannot be unjust. So, for many Jews God is not physical and without attributes yet somehow is the ultimate source of the universe. Some may see, therefore, that it is much simpler to assume "the universe" being that much of it is "right in front of our eyes," than to assume such an immaterial, attributeless god. –Marshall Well then professor, HOWE COME do you suppose they call HIM, G-D? But I would like to know that if it *is* the worst, then Madigan will still have a good home. Dear Leah, I’m jumping into this thread having not read your initial post.

IOW, as per usual you don’t know your subject, professor. Once I was given a serious but erroneous diagnosis.

As well you’ve repaid the favor many times over. After considerable anxiety I came to the philosophical position that "whatever I have, I have."

You’re quite the philosopher, professor. Surprising you hadn’t used someWON else’s fancy words, well read as you are no DHOWET, just judgin by HOWE you weasel words. What most helped me was meditation.

INDEED, professor SCRUFF SHAKE? Perhaps medecine would be a MOORE effective scientific approach. Like in the original poster’s case. SHORELY mamary tumors might respond to scientifc aroma therapy and your mantra? And a good diet and some select herbs.  I had often practiced meditation,

HAD YOU, NHOWE? and now, having heard that I had a "serious" condition

You got a MOORE seriHOWES CONdition NHOWE, professor. I resumed meditation.

It’s NEVER too late, so long as you’re alive. IS IT, professor philosopher. My mantra was/is the end of the Kaddish:

You’ve said you’re an Atheist, professor SCRUFF SHAKE. But then, you’ve also said you don’t do to dogs what you do to dogs, as have most of the other non believers heathens Satanists and witches on the dog behavior forum you’ve misled for six years tryin to sell your fraudulent masters degree program and defend your alleged right to hurt and murder animals. "Oseh shalom bimroomav who ya-ah say  shalom aleinu v kal Yisroel."

INDEED? Very impressive. Got any idea what that means? Most of us on The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Forum don’t speak Chinese. I eventually searched the biomedical literature and consulted with a physician friend who insisted that the medication I was taking had produced the "strange" blood work.

And you got that through your deepest Buddist ANAL-ytic contemplation placement meditation? BWEEEEHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! I discontinued the medication, brought my doctor my literature review, and had the test repeated. My lab results were now pretty much normal.

All thanks to that last ditch Buddhism stuff? Ain’t THAT HOWE COME The Buddah smiles? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  My doctor, a nice guy, apologized for the misdiagnosis. (This is why they call it the "practice" of

… read more »

Response:

HOWEDY culprit aka kelly aka metta (metta is culprit aka kelly’s aka on the CRAZY PERSONS news groups so she’s not DISCREDITED as bein NUTSO on the NON CRAZY person’s news groups),

Hello: I’m currently researching for a project on whippets.

Aaaahhhh. He’s certainly come to the right place. I’m adding a section on prong collars

That’s kindly of him. Ain’t it. and would like to know what your first thoughts are?

Before or after medications are given HOWET? on a strong dog that pulls hard,

The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s breeds are Great Danes and English Mastiffs and HE has NEVER choked a dog in nearly forty years. or on a dog that pulls to the point of choking themselves, i like using a prong collar.

That’s kindly of you culprit aka kelly aka metta. however, whippets have really thin skin,

As do HOWER dog lovers… and i’d be hesitant to use a prong on them for that reason.

That’s kindly of you culprit. Your own dogs attack each other cause YOU HURT THEM. there’s a type of collar called a "martingale",

A limited choke… that’s kindly of you METTA. that’s specifically designed for sighthounds.

That so?  i’d guess that this would be a better option for whippets.

You’d GUESS. -kelly

HOWEDY culprit aka kelly aka metta (metta is culprit aka kelly’s aka on the CRAZY PERSONS news groups so she’s not DISCREDITED as bein NUTSO on the NON CRAZY person’s news groups),

you want to know what kind of person your pal tpw is?

The Amazing Puppy Wizard is the only dog trainer in history who teaches people all over the Whole Wild World to handle train and rehabilitate ALL behavior problems NEARLY INSTANLY for FREE, withHOWET HURTIN noWON. i just got a personal email from him (because i made the mistake of responding to you, i’m sure), cc’d to a bunch of other folks i don’t know,

Marilyn and professor dermer and perhps Larry, cause THEY understand a little abHOWET behavior. in which he harasses and verbally abuses me about my recently deceased cat

You mean the kat you trained your dogs to MURDER. and the state of my health.

Well perhaps if you wasn’t MENTAL you wouldn’ta HURT your dogs till they MURDERED your DEAD kat.  yes, he’s using the recent death of a beloved animal as ammunition to try to upset me.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard is QUOTING YOUR CASE HISSSTORY of TRAINING YOUR DOGS to MURDER YOUR KAT by FORGETTING to put their SHOCK COLLARS on them when you got back from the vet after $1500.00 in surgery. you still call this guy amusing?

You wanna see amusing?: "we’ll keep the indoor boundary set up, and keep ***testing the dogs with it (hiding behind the railing and meowing usually does the trick)*** so that they’re familiar with the warning tone. Manu is already pretty sure he knows what it means, and whenever Lola trips it, he’ll bite her hind leg and pull her down the steps so the tone stops.  he’s such a big brother, always trying to keep sis out of trouble." And THEN (Drumroll please, Mr. Maestro…): "anyway, we had it installed outside today, and started the indoor part of training.  we decided to put the training fence on the stairway, since the cats like to hang out up there and the dogs aren’t allowed to go up." "i dropped of Mo upstairs, as usual, and headed down to let the dogs out of their crates. for some reason i’ll never know,  *(EVERY WON KNOWS NHOWE.) *(forgetting to put their SHOCK COLLARS ON THEM) Mo followed me downstairs.  he never does this. and i didn’t hear him coming.  however, the dogs did. they ran to investigate, and found a strange smelling, bloody cat in their house. needless to say, they attacked him" Cause culprit aka kelly aka METTA FORGOT to put their shock collars back on after uncrating them and she DIDN’T TELL MO THEY WASN’T WEARIN THEIR SHOCK COLLARS.  i call him frightening.

Naaah. Leavin you runnin loose is frightenin. -kelly

HOWEDY People,

she’s darling.

INDEEDY. Like HOWE culprit aka kelly aka metta’s $7,000.00 DEAD kat WAS.  the pups wish her a speedy recovery.

The PUPS would MURDER her just like HOWE YOU TRAINED THEM to MURDER YOUR OWN DEAD KAT. since i can’t have cats for a while,

Cause you trained your dogs to MURDER IT. i’d like to experience them vicariously,

A WIZE idea.  so please feel free to keep posting pix and stories!

INDEEDY. LikeWIZE, The Amazing Puppy Wizard will keep posting YOUR CASE HISTORY to IDENTIFY EXXXPOSE and DISCREDIT you and your pals as the lying animal abusng mental cases you are. Here’s the IN-complete story (short version) of HOWE culprit aka kelly aka metta (metta is culprit aka kelly’s aka on the MENTAL PERSONS news groups) TRAINED HER DOGS to MURDER HER DEAD KAT: -kelly

while walking backwards

Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what it felt like to me when I got shocked by Hope’s collar. It felt like a bomb going off in my hand and forearm.

there are different brands of fences, and each one has a variety of settings, set to the dog’s specific reaction.  Lola’s collar is set to give more juice than Manu’s, because she’s more likely to ignore the buzz, whereas Manu wants nothing to do with it.  i have no idea what brand or setting Hope’s collar was set at. there’s also the fact that Hope has lots of thick fur and a good fat layer (to keep her warm in the water) and my dogs are scrawny and nekkid. so maybe Hope needs a higher setting to work for her.  it’s really hard to say without comparing the collars directly. and you’re right, if Lola really wants out of the yard, she’ll run through the fence.  the annoyance doesn’t keep her in, which is why she’s always supervised outdoors. Manu, OTOH, is happy to stay as far from the fence as he can.  what can i say, he’s part eevil pit bull and part fraidy cat. -kelly after having the appraisal for the real fencing coming out at over $11,000, we decided to put up an invisible fence, just until we can save some cash for the real one.  after we put up the real fence, the invisible one will probably remain as a "fail safe" to keep the dogs off the real fence. yes, i’m aware of most of the cons, i’ve always been against them myself, until i talked to a lot of people who have them, and had the invisible fence trainer come out to meet the dogs. i’ll only be letting them out when i’m home and can keep a direct eye on them, and we’ve discussed it with all of the neighbors, and they’ve committed to containing their dogs, so they won’t come into my yard unless invited. anyway, we had it installed outside today, and started the indoor part of training.  we decided to put the training fence on the stairway, since the cats like to hang out up there and the dogs aren’t allowed to go up. we put up a baby gate just past the invisible barrier, so that they can’t go through it, even if they want to. i tried the collar on myself before we let the dogs try it, and while it is uncomfortable, it’s not painful, and i’m comfortable with the dogs wearing it. we thought Manu would require a higher setting than Lola, because she’s pretty sensitive to correction, and he is a big meathead who doesn’t feel a thing.  this played out with the first part of training, with Lola turning around and leaving the steps at the first buzz, and Manu just standing there, wagging his tail, like he didn’t feel a thing. we upped the setting three more times before Manu "got it", and then he immediately turned around and didn’t go up the steps at all after that. the weird thing is that Lola, who was clearly bothered by the experience, kept trying to go up to get the cat’s area anyway. this confirmed something i had suspected. Lola may be more sensitive to correction, but she also has more "drive", and will put up with something she dislikes longer than Manu will. Lola sat on the steps, cycling through the collar’s three 10 second failsafe cycles,  then tried to climb over the baby gate as though nothing had happened. we decided to up the correction one setting, with the theory that she’d find it so unpleasant it would stop her from climbing the steps, then we’d turn it back down once she realized she shouldn’t be up there. unfortunately, she never did realize it, so we had to leave it on the higher setting. so hers is set lower than Manu’s, but she reacts a lot more strongly to it (scratching at her neck, etc) than he does. we’ll keep the indoor boundary set up, and keep testing the dogs with it (hiding behind the railing and meowing usually does the trick) so that they’re familiar with the warning tone. Manu is already pretty sure he knows what it means, and whenever Lola trips it, he’ll bite her hind leg and pull her down the steps so the tone stops.  he’s such a big brother, always trying to keep sis out of trouble. the outdoor training will begin later in the week, i’ll post updates once we get done with them. -kelly today Mo-kitty woke up in a large spot of blood. his wound had been bleeding all night.  i took him to the vet, who said that this was not abnormal, did some blood tests, and sent him home with me. since he’s not allowed to groom himself, he had quite a bit of blood on him, … read more »

Response:

my golden has cancer

Question:

HOWEDY professor SCRUFF SHAKE,

"buglady" Try to think like your dog.  Get up every day and be thankful, eat your breakfast and go out for a romp. Dogs don’t carry around a lot of heavy weight.

That so? As the former ever pupular sindy SADIST mooron WONce sez, "HOWE can we know WHAT a dog is THINKIN?"  They live in the now.  They don’t worry about whether or not something is going to work.

That so? The Amazing Puppy Wizard SEZ dogs got MOORE on their minds than you do. They don’t feel sorry for themselves.

You mean YOU don’t FEEL SORRY for THEM.  They just deal with what is in front of them.

You mean dogs DON’T THINK? buglady

Even a mosquito PLANS his attack.  And all of this sans Zen master!

Well, perhaps FAITH, FATE  and DESTINY got MOORE to do with it than meditations?  –Marshall

HOWEDY People, HOWEDY Soup, As we all know, after talking shocking HOWER dog lovers love most talkin abHOWET who not to talk to, moderating HOWER news groups, and barring that, offering killfile advice. Perhaps there’s a solution they’ve never thought of? If they was to declare these "mental persons only" news groups, decent people wouldn’t be offended by them hurting and murdering their best dogs and they’d know better than to post here abHOWETS and then it’ll just be me an you and the mental cases posting here abHOWETS anyMOORE. HOWE’S abHOWET that, do you think? Oh, bye the bye Soup? The mental persons list needs some minor updating. There’s a few loose screwballs who are posting here who’ve not complied with mental health safety and ng courtesy protocols. culprit aka kelly aka metta has some news to report abHOWET her mental illnesss and we’ve got a couple of self cutters and sexual sadists who’ve not been updated as of yet. PLEASE PEOPLE! Comply with the mental health care case history requiremets to avoid psychotic reactions from being mishandled by ordinarily sane persons who may think you’re able to handle the truth. Thank you, The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~  )   P.S.  In the interest of a drug free America The Amazing Puppy Wizard recommends SOME crazy persons with permission and supervision of their psy-docs should SLOWLY discontinue their anti psychotic medications in an effort to face the very real dangers of life withHOWET lithium… Perhap some meditation will heelp with the trainsition from chemical straight jackets to life in the real world withHOWET delusion: HOWEDY professor SCRUFF SHAKE,

] I know it’s tough while you’re worrying, but you ] will feel much better once she’s back home with you! ] Take it easy on yourself. ] ]Jess K. I’m with Jess!

You mean don’t worry abHOWET it. Why don’t you practice meditating as a way to deal with worrying?

Like you done? You’re a hypocrite, professor. Find a quiet place, assume a comfortable position,

INDEED. This is gonna hurt you just a little MOORE than it will The Amazing Puppy Wizard but it’s for your own good.  close your eyes and meditate.

Picture The Amazing Puppy Wizard EXXXPLAINING to the state board of education HOWE COME you don’t deserve to be teachin HOWER university kids to hurt and intimidate and bribe and murder animals. Consider, for example, the material here:

<snip link From your quasi religiHOWES site: "There are two types of meditation: analytical meditation and placement meditation. When we contemplate the meaning of a Dharma instruction that we have heard or read we are doing analytical meditation. By deeply contemplating the instruction, eventually we reach a conclusion or cause a specific virtuous state of mind to arise. This is the object of placement meditation. Having found our object through analytical meditation, we then concentrate on it single- pointedly for as long as possible to become deeply acquainted with it. This single-pointed concentration is placement meditation. Often, analytical meditation is called simply `contemplation’, and placement meditation simply `meditation’. Placement meditation depends upon contemplation, and contemplation depends upon listening to or reading Dharma instructions." Well THAT was nice professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM dermer. Try something scientific: Newsgroups: alt.aromatherapy Gotta put a plug in for my incense guru- very controversial figure, but one of the most dedicated to incense learning. Start with this link and go around to all his refs- it will be an education.  Hang onto your sox..www.oller.net/incense.html Enjoy the hot debates Sign on to the Alice’s Restaurant discussion group, wherein are archived a hellacious amount of material on incense. Let us know what you think.. — L Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking — Life does not always go smoothly

INDEEDY, professor SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM ‘NO!’ into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation" dermer.  so it is good to know

That there ain’t no Atheists in foxholes. how to "shut off" that little voice in your head

That little voice that sez your goose is cooked, professor? when it is not doing you any good.

Never too late to find religiHOWESNESS, is it, professor? At least, for as long as you’re in the foxhole. Especially after having receive a genuine MIRACLE like HOWE you done! Of curse, as a devHOWET Budhist you’ll wanna share the good news! It is very easy for a Jew to become an atheist because according to Jewish thought there is no physical entity that correponds to God. Moreover, although Jews may pray that God be compassionate and just, attributing such features to God limits his omnipotence. That is, if God is just then God is limited in the sense that he/she/it cannot be unjust. So, for many Jews God is not physical and without attributes yet somehow is the ultimate source of the universe. Some may see, therefore, that it is much simpler to assume "the universe" being that much of it is "right in front of our eyes," than to assume such an immaterial, attributeless god. –Marshall Well then professor, HOWE COME do you suppose they call HIM, G-D? But I would like to know that if it *is* the worst, then Madigan will still have a good home. Dear Leah, I’m jumping into this thread having not read your initial post.

IOW, as per usual you don’t know your subject, professor. Once I was given a serious but erroneous diagnosis.

As well you’ve repaid the favor many times over. After considerable anxiety I came to the philosophical position that "whatever I have, I have."

You’re quite the philosopher, professor. Surprising you hadn’t used someWON else’s fancy words, well read as you are no DHOWET, just judgin by HOWE you weasel words. What most helped me was meditation.

INDEED, professor SCRUFF SHAKE? Perhaps medecine would be a MOORE effective scientific approach. Like in the original poster’s case. SHORELY mamary tumors might respond to scientifc aroma therapy and your mantra? And a good diet and some select herbs.  I had often practiced meditation,

HAD YOU, NHOWE? and now, having heard that I had a "serious" condition

You got a MOORE seriHOWES CONdition NHOWE, professor. I resumed meditation.

It’s NEVER too late, so long as you’re alive. IS IT, professor philosopher. My mantra was/is the end of the Kaddish:

You’ve said you’re an Atheist, professor SCRUFF SHAKE. But then, you’ve also said you don’t do to dogs what you do to dogs, as have most of the other non believers heathens Satanists and witches on the dog behavior forum you’ve misled for six years tryin to sell your fraudulent masters degree program and defend your alleged right to hurt and murder animals. "Oseh shalom bimroomav who ya-ah say  shalom aleinu v kal Yisroel."

INDEED? Very impressive. Got any idea what that means? Most of us on The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Forum don’t speak Chinese. I eventually searched the biomedical literature and consulted with a physician friend who insisted that the medication I was taking had produced the "strange" blood work.

And you got that through your deepest Buddist ANAL-ytic contemplation placement meditation? BWEEEEHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! I discontinued the medication, brought my doctor my literature review, and had the test repeated. My lab results were now pretty much normal.

All thanks to that last ditch Buddhism stuff? Ain’t THAT HOWE COME The Buddah smiles?  My doctor, a nice guy, apologized for the misdiagnosis. (This is why they call it the "practice" of medicine.)

Or the practice of Budihst meditation. See? You got a FREAKIN MIRACLE, professor! Your own discussion of hunger and teeth this week, will suggest SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE of your MIRACLE brought to you by your Buddah. AMAZING! Hey, professor? Know when the only time you ever hear "AMAZING" is? When The Amazing Puppy Wizard’s CONSISTENTLY 100% NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students REPORT RIGHT HERE sayin … read more »

Response:

HOWEDY j carter10,

I’d really appreciate hearing opinions of other dog-lovers as to what you would do in my case.

You’ve come to the right place for that. Should I give her a chance,

You won’t see these dog abusing mental cases givin noWON a chance. should I have her put down, or what?

That’s the CONvention here abHOWETS. I dearly love this dog.

We’ve got a infinitely WIZE grief CON-SELLER in ed w of PETLOSS dot CON. Talk to him. Have fifty dollars ready, he likes $50 denominations, no personal checks please. Seems eddie had to quit his day job panhandlin to do the grief scam. BUT, I DO NOT WANT HER TO SUFFER

ALL HOWER DOG LOVERS KNOW is SUFFERIN. or endure a poor quality of life for whatever time shr might have left.

DON’T WORRY ABHOWET IT. You’ll get permission to murder your dog. You’re askin liars dog abusers cowards and active long term incurable MENTAL CASES who ARBRITRARILY MURDER their dogs. HOWEDY People, The Amazing Puppy Wizard wouldn’t ever CONsider MURDERING a dog if he had just WON MOORE "HOWEDY!" left in him. http://www.canineaction.com My Kids, My Students, My Life:

You MURDERED your own DEAD DOG Buck cause you was TOO LAZY to walk him and TOO STUPID to restrict salt from his congestive heart failure diet supplemented with lasix, FRENCH FRIES and PIZZA. And THEN you CHANGED YOUR MIND just after the veterinarian MURDERED HIM for you for your CONvenience. After Ken shaved Tosca’s leg to prep him for the injection I told him to stop because I couldn’t go through with it.

I had that impulse the moment that Buck’s eyes closed and he went limp.  I wanted to scream, "No!  I made a mistake!" I’m just glad I didn’t break down until that moment. I was able to smile at him and say happy things while he was watching me.  So at least the last thing he saw and heard was the most important thing in his life – me, telling him I loved him. "Euthanasia is that one last great gift you can give your beloved pet. It’s when you take *their* pain from them and make it your own."

This is a very comforting statement.  And so true.  Can I plagarize you? :} I’ve also been hanging in the alt.support.pet-loss newsgroup since I lost my eskie, and there are a lot of people there who would benefit from hearing this. :} Thank you, everybody, for your kind words. They really do help. I really didn’t think this would be so hard. I thought I was ready.  I thought I’d feel relieved that Buck was "safe" from further suffering. All I can see is his eyes as he looked into mine, trusting me, as the vet gave him the needle. I don’t know if I’d ever have the courage to do this again.  I hope I never have to. Leah.

Didja also see that he has ‘morphed’ into Valerie M. Holmes ????? Note: I am not saying there isn’t a VALID Valerie M. Holmes, but this one lives in howdy’s home. MB <G

HEY!!! There is a Valid Valerie with a REAL Dalmatian who is a real sweet dog with a few issues that I am working to resolve after adopting her from a shelter she spent 2 years in. All I want is to get some decent help for my dog. There is some decent stuff in Jerry’s manual. My dog has ACTUALLY been responding to her training.  The deal is you have to seperate your opinions and impressions from the guy who is writing these posts and take from the manual what you want. Personally, I get a pretty good chuckle out of the whole Jerry thing.  I have to say the guy is pretty clever, you’re letting him get under your skin. It makes for a very amusing game I think. I’m sure he would agree, or he wouldn’t be playing everyday.  He also wouldn’t be playing if he didn’t believe that his method of training weren’t valid. Perhaps I’ll learn from my mistakes, but so far, using the Wits’ End, I have gotten my dalmatian to listen to me, to look to me for direction, to wait for me to say when. I have changed her from an aggressive dog to one who is willing to please her owner, willing to listen, willing to assume her role in the pack. The real Valerie M. Holmes speaking P.s. Jerry, don’t get any ideas about morphing        into me, ok? MaryBeth, QUEEN OF THE RPD* MENTALLY ILL ALLSTARS MENTAL ILLNESS IN RPD* Mental illness is a public issue in these newsgroups. People are always running around calling other people mentally ill and diagnosing their illnesses. I think it’s only fair that we have an accurate list of who is and who isn’t mentally ill, so that we can avoid any misunderstandings and promote group harmony. MaryBeth MVP (most valuable psycho) Has contributed greatly to the annual profit results at several large pharmaceutical corps has taken virtually every mentally ill (crazy) drug treatment in the book, and then some: prozac, zoloft, amitryptiline, Buspar, Xanax, effexor, paxil, HRT, wellbutrin, tranquilizers, clomid, has suffered from or been:                      suicidal, agoraphobic, tidal waves of                      PMS, mood swings, turned into a hermit,                      bloated, just real angry, hubby afraid of                      her, high blood pressure, divorced,                      "raving bitch" "zoloft zombie" for four                      years, "living through layers and layers                      of gauze," chain smoker, buzzing, weight                      gain, fatigue, terrible dry mouth, dull                      headaches, fuzzy brain, lack of                      concentration..etc.                      severe depression, severe insomnia, Panic                      ALL the time, crying, not sleeping, you                      name it…etc…      MaryBeth (on being seriously f’d in the head      aka mentally ill) aka cuckoo! kuckoo! ding! ding! ding!      aka a superpsychotic bitch from hell                      "I know for a fact I went thru years of                      being overly sensitive, being a b*tch,                      being self centered, being self pitying,                      you name it, I was a wreck and I ran over                      everyone in my path."                      "<G I do know the power of meds,                      especially on a long term basis, and it’s                      not pretty. You become another person, if                      it’s not the correct med for you.                      –All the best,                        MaryBeth                      "Yup Diane, I am taking Zoloft, and my                      Rheumatologist told me that taking                      Ultram with it can cause seizures."                      "I have all the symptoms.I am suicidal at                      times (cyclical) have severe insomnia,                      ’crawly’ skin etc. I have an appt to see                      my doc next Friday to test for                      menopause."                        –MaryBeth                      "I noticed that antidepressants cut                      libido into the dead zone and I had no                      real emotions, like not laughing at funny                      stuff, couldn’t cry either…..except about                      my suicidal thoughts (but at the time I                      thought there was no other way out)."                        –MaryBeth                      "Hi, new to group, just starting Clomid                       today. I talked with RE and pharmacist re:                      zoloft 50 mg daily) and ineraction with                      Clomid.                      They reported none. Not sure about the                      prozac tho. Gonna poat a new message to                      intorduce myself "                        –MaryBeth <still feeling like herself                        <G                      "I wasted about 10 years of my life, and                      lost many many treasured ppl and things.                      Please don’t do the same.                      (((((((SCOUT))))))))))                        –MaryBeth                     "Slowly but surely my depression got worse                     and worse. They put me on meds for it, and                     all along kept telling me to wait on the                     TKR, as ‘it really wasn’t that                     bad…..yet". HA!" The depression got so                     bad, and lots of other                     things happened and my ex and I would up                     divorced four years after our move. It was                     horrible. The hardest thing I have eve                     gone thru"                         –MaryBeth Leah        Effexor for chronic depression, in denial                 about being mentally ill. Has taken                 several other mentally ill medications                 before settling on effexor for her                 chronic mental problems.

Response:

Bipolar disorder and meditation

Question:

Knowing where to call for grocery delivery, the location of a good fluff and fold (service laundry) a

OMG!  I forgot the most important one: a pharmacy that delivers! Maggie

Response:

My first real manic episode was (probably) initiated by meditation in various forms – so I totally support you, Ralph. Parts of the story can be found here: http://www.hmt.com/kundalini/hueland.html Be careful out there! Haakon

Thank you.  Hugs, Ralph

Response:

Part of my bipolar disorder is tripping out on buddhism and meditation and my thoughts.  I get so into my head that I can’t access reality.  Right there with you Ralph. thing.  I like to think that my mania often brings me in touch with the reality of my own suffering though.  It’s not just delusion, it has meaning, I just have to find out what it is.  I understand myself and others more on meds though.

The problem is, for the Bipolar patient, our "reality" can be delusion. When we look inward and contemplate our mind, we can get stuck contemplating a deluded thought; reinforcing our own illness. the trick is to be able to recognize which thoughts are "the pure thoughts" of spiritual consciousness and which thoughts are delusions caused by our various illnesses.         In the mental discipline which I practice, there is a distinction made between "contemplation" and "true meditation". In most teachings, this distinction is not made. Most teachings stop at the contemplation of either "the third eye" or "the belly chakra"; so that one may quiet one’s thoughts and one may examine one’s thoughts; but one never gets behind one thoughts. Thus one becomes "stuck" on the nature of one’s thoughts and if these thoughts are disturbed by Bipolar Disorder; one will only become obcessed with one’s disturbed thoughts.         If you are able to get behind the thoughts of the physical brain/mind to get to the core spirit/mind that transcends the physical brain and is not affected by the chemical imbalances of the brain; then you have attained "true meditation". But as I expressed in my original post; even the great masters of the orient, agree that one attains this true transcendant state only once or twice in a lifetime if one is fortuneate.         (NEW THOUGHT) The above discussion of transcendant spiritual consciousness however does NOT negate the benefits of cultivating the lifeforce through contemplation of the center and the focusing of the lifeforce through meditation in motion (aka "Chi Kung" or "Tai Chi"). But this cultivation of lifeforce and spirit-body is different from transcending physical thought to spiritual awareness.         There are many reasons to meditate, all of which are inter-related; and far more detailed than appropriate for this venue. (however anyone wishing to discuss this will me in private e-mails are experiences with the T’ai I Chin Hua Tsung Chih on a web page if enough people are interested.         Hugs from the serial hugger, Ralph

Response:

In the mental discipline which I practice, there is a distinction made between "contemplation" and "true meditation". In most teachings, this distinction is not made. Most teachings stop at the contemplation of either "the third eye" or "the belly chakra"; so that one may quiet one’s thoughts and one may examine one’s thoughts;

 Hugs from the serial hugger, Ralph I don’t meditate to examine my thought, but rather to clear and quiet my mind…….relaxing both mind and body. A very attractive concept from my pont of view. Maggie

Response:

I bet we could have some great conversations that might be off topic for here. (like religion, philosophy, political, etc) Hugs, Ralph

Yep, those are my topics. Maggie

Response:

I bet we could have some great conversations that might be off topic for here. (like religion, philosophy, political, etc) Hugs, Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -’m agreeable. I live in NJ near Philadelphia. Where are you? I’m in lovely Lost Angeles. But hold the thought. Maggie

Response:

My first real manic episode was (probably) initiated by meditation in various forms – so I totally support you, Ralph. Parts of the story can be found here: http://www.hmt.com/kundalini/hueland.html Be careful out there! Haakon

Am I correct in believing that shap increase in interest in religious and spirituat matters (above the interest that individual normally has) can be a symptom of mania? Maggie BP 2

Response:

I’ve never had much success with meditation, unless it be some form of "moving meditation" – e.g. martial arts kata, tai-chi etc. It’s as if the disciplined movement acts as a channel for my normal restlessness.

Interesting that you should mention this.  I was a serious ballet person frojm age 8 through 16.  Studied at a school run by a very old former Bolshoi Prima who oversaw lessons taught by members of the local ballet company. I found, from a very young age, and ever sense, the prep exercies and the dance itself, always done to the internal count, puts me "into the zone" so far that it is almost trance like. I feel that the dancer melds into the very spirit of the dance.  One with every coreogropher and dancer, the composer, who has ever done it before me. A wonderful and almost trance ike experience.  Also good for flexibity, muscle tone, posture and a cultural veneer.  i highlyo recommend it. Ever noticed that a dance has to center him/her self,,,,,,maintain his/her center of gravity?  Sort of like centering yourself in other aspects of life. Maggie Still enjoys doing barre work in the swimming pool.  Still gets far into the zone when doing so.l

Response:

Let me begin by stating that I have studied and practiced Taoist meditation for the past 30 years and my PhD is in Asian Studies based upon my study of the Chin Hua Brotherhood of China, and their practices of meditation and traditional chinese medicine. Ralph, We must meet!

<snipped Interesting how closely we are on the same page on several things, isn’t it. BTW:  I had always pictured you as a Mormon. Maggie.

I’m agreeable. I live in NJ near Philadelphia. Where are you? Contact area that get together on a regular basis. We’d love to get together with you as well. ( Or just you and I could meet if you are not into groups ) Hugs, Ralph

Response:

‘m agreeable. I live in NJ near Philadelphia. Where are you?

I’m in lovely Lost Angeles. But hold the thought. Maggie

Response:

Let me begin by stating that I have studied and practiced Taoist meditation for the past 30 years and my PhD is in Asian Studies based upon my study of the Chin Hua Brotherhood of China, and their practices of meditation and traditional chinese medicine. On the basic level, the level that MOST people experience and call "meditation", one uses techniques of relaxation and self-hypnosis to cut one’s self off from the distractions of the outside world. This is done by controlling one’s breathing, fixating one’s thoughts on either the 3rd eye or on the belly chakra, and by enforcing stillness until one has attained a level of self awareness. In this BASIC state of meditation, the ONLY state of meditation that MOST people experience; one is alone with one’s own thoughts. If one’s own thoughts are disturbed by Bipolar Disorder, delusions, or psychosis; the experience of the bipolar disorder, delusions, or psychosis is only going to be AMPLIFIED by being so alone with one’s own thoughts.         This technique is VERY good for eliminating stress and EXTERNAL causes of nervousness and illnesses. But when the cause is INTERNAL these meditative states can actually increase the problem. Conversely, a wise man (or woman), seeing his own mind in its natural state can use this to help heal himself and understand the nature of his own illness. However, he (she) must be aware that what they may be experiencing MAY (or may not) be the product of the chemical imbalances in their own brain. Then there are those few, but I stress THOSE VERY FEW, who are fortunate enough to discover the hidden secret* of extending their meditation beyond the confines of the physical mind/brain and have a TRUE spiritual experience that is NOT a delusion of the physical mind/brain. (It is very difficult to determine the difference between a true spiritual experience and a mental delusion… except by your own conviction and nature of understanding while you are actually experiencing the event.) It is rare to have a true spiritual experience. Even the great masters of the orient will tell you that they only experience one, maybe two, true spiritual experiences in a lifetime. The rest of their lives are spent becoming enlightened to understanding the one or two experiences that they did receive through self examination during meditation. * The reason I say "hidden secret" is that it is not a technique or a knowledge that can be taught or put into words of any kind. it is something within yourself that you must find within yourself, by yourself; that no one can tell you where it is or how to find it. Either you find it on your own, or you don’t; and no teacher, guru, or mystic in the world can give it to you. Hugs from the serial hugger, Ralph

Response:

Let me begin by stating that I have studied and practiced Taoist meditation for the past 30 years and my PhD is in Asian Studies based upon my study of the Chin Hua Brotherhood of China, and their practices of meditation and traditional chinese medicine.

Ralph, We must meet!  Tao and the power of The Way has been a huge factor in my own life since HS.  My Dad’s family are old Asia hands (miltary, diplomacy, and civil engineering…..and of course, connections with "The Firm". My meditation technique is exactly what you have described.  I have also realized the great benifit of keeping things simple, staying centered, and striving for hamony with my environment (and maintaining a harmonius environment. Our poster’s comments were a wake up call for me because i had forgotten to put this into practice for a while. Intereting that your suggestions were exactly what I was going to suggest. Amazon has a book I wanted to recommend. I wanted to suggest Tai Chi, and had even thought of suggesting that the poster find a hypnotist that would put him/her under, give the suggestion that would encourage self care and stress management, making psych appoint ments and being med compliant.  And then, give her/him an audio tape of the session. inhale, 2 on exhale…….quiet the mind, relax the body. Intering the alpha state through meditation or hypnosis is, in my case, very like the incredibly relaxed state that follows very successful seualo activity.  Perhaps that  will help others to recognize it when they achieve it. Interesting how closely we are on the same page on several things, isn’t it. BTW:  I had always pictured you as a Mormon. Maggie. PS to James:  I’m not eurasian.  Both my parents are white southerners.  My war but served in the Occupation of Japan.  They met when my Dad had malaria and was treated in the Tokyo General Army hospital in 1945.

Response:

I was thinking that my mania was always related to transitions that most people make in life which were always that much more traumatic for me.  I just can’t cope with change and everyday transitions, puberty, new relationships, pregnancy, childbirth, separations, stresses, new expectations.  I don’t regulate myself and my emotions well enough to manage my life.  So this amplifies my stresses.

Helen, i think it’s been pretty well documented that major life changes can be pretty stressful, and even "minor" stress like having to get up and make a speech or go on a job interview can lead to physical body symptoms.  I think that these stress induced hit us where we are most vulnerable.  Some people get ulcers, others get other stuff.  Did you know that US former first lady, Barbara Bush, mother of the current president, had a child die suddenly and her hair changed to white in a very short time.  I belive she was under age 40 when his occurred. I guess the trick is for us to build as many safety nets into our lives as possible.  i have long been aware that the more organized my physical environment is, the better change I have on getting through the bad times.  I like to make things as easy as possib le on myself. Some of the truly mundane things that help me are direct deposit of every fund source possible into my checking account, having every possible bill, from mortgage and utilites on automatic on line banking.  Knowing where to call for grocery delivery, the location of a good fluff and fold (service laundry) a cleaning lady who will come sporadically as needed, etc.  Being able to find things when I need them…..you know the drill. Stupid stuff all, but it helps me get through the bad times with the minimum of energy and focus.  Doesn’t prevent depression by any means!  Still, it menimizes damage.   I’m so glad that I don’t do that now. Helen

Me, too.  Life without meds, etc, and the breakthroughs in dealing with this complete disaster. Your pal, Maggie

Response:

Part of my bipolar disorder is tripping out on buddhism and meditation and my thoughts.  I get so into my head that I can’t access reality.  Right there with you Ralph. thing.  I like to think that my mania often brings me in touch with the reality of my own suffering though.  It’s not just delusion, it has meaning, I just have to find out what it is.  I understand myself and others more on meds though. I was thinking that my mania was always related to transitions that most people make in life which were always that much more traumatic for me.  I just can’t cope with change and everyday transitions, puberty, new relationships, pregnancy, childbirth, separations, stresses, new expectations.  I don’t regulate myself and my emotions well enough to manage my life.  So this amplifies my stresses.  I use my spirituality as a crutch at those times and I feel closer to ‘the spirit’ of something, but it’s all an illusion.  I have thought so many strange things that seemed so real at the time, yet now, I can’t really connect to them (well not completely). It’s like spirituality amplified.  It’s everything amplified.  I feel like a feedback loop when I’m manic.  It’s horrible.  I’m so glad that I don’t do that now. Helen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let me begin by stating that I have studied and practiced Taoist meditation for the past 30 years and my PhD is in Asian Studies based upon my study of the Chin Hua Brotherhood of China, and their practices of meditation and traditional chinese medicine. On the basic level, the level that MOST people experience and call "meditation", one uses techniques of relaxation and self-hypnosis to cut one’s self off from the distractions of the outside world. This is done by controlling one’s breathing, fixating one’s thoughts on either the 3rd eye or on the belly chakra, and by enforcing stillness until one has attained a level of self awareness. In this BASIC state of meditation, the ONLY state of meditation that MOST people experience; one is alone with one’s own thoughts. If one’s own thoughts are disturbed by Bipolar Disorder, delusions, or psychosis; the experience of the bipolar disorder, delusions, or psychosis is only going to be AMPLIFIED by being so alone with one’s own thoughts. This technique is VERY good for eliminating stress and EXTERNAL causes of nervousness and illnesses. But when the cause is INTERNAL these meditative states can actually increase the problem. Conversely, a wise man (or woman), seeing his own mind in its natural state can use this to help heal himself and understand the nature of his own illness. However, he (she) must be aware that what they may be experiencing MAY (or may not) be the product of the chemical imbalances in their own brain. Then there are those few, but I stress THOSE VERY FEW, who are fortunate enough to discover the hidden secret* of extending their meditation beyond the confines of the physical mind/brain and have a TRUE spiritual experience that is NOT a delusion of the physical mind/brain. (It is very difficult to determine the difference between a true spiritual experience and a mental delusion… except by your own conviction and nature of understanding while you are actually experiencing the event.) It is rare to have a true spiritual experience. Even the great masters of the orient will tell you that they only experience one, maybe two, true spiritual experiences in a lifetime. The rest of their lives are spent becoming enlightened to understanding the one or two experiences that they did receive through self examination during meditation. * The reason I say "hidden secret" is that it is not a technique or a knowledge that can be taught or put into words of any kind. it is something within yourself that you must find within yourself, by yourself; that no one can tell you where it is or how to find it. Either you find it on your own, or you don’t; and no teacher, guru, or mystic in the world can give it to you. Hugs from the serial hugger, Ralph

Response:

My first real manic episode was (probably) initiated by meditation in various forms – so I totally support you, Ralph. Parts of the story can be found here: http://www.hmt.com/kundalini/hueland.html Be careful out there! Haakon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let me begin by stating that I have studied and practiced Taoist meditation for the past 30 years and my PhD is in Asian Studies based upon my study of the Chin Hua Brotherhood of China, and their practices of meditation and traditional chinese medicine. On the basic level, the level that MOST people experience and call "meditation", one uses techniques of relaxation and self-hypnosis to cut one’s self off from the distractions of the outside world. This is done by controlling one’s breathing, fixating one’s thoughts on either the 3rd eye or on the belly chakra, and by enforcing stillness until one has attained a level of self awareness. In this BASIC state of meditation, the ONLY state of meditation that MOST people experience; one is alone with one’s own thoughts. If one’s own thoughts are disturbed by Bipolar Disorder, delusions, or psychosis; the experience of the bipolar disorder, delusions, or psychosis is only going to be AMPLIFIED by being so alone with one’s own thoughts. This technique is VERY good for eliminating stress and EXTERNAL causes of nervousness and illnesses. But when the cause is INTERNAL these meditative states can actually increase the problem. Conversely, a wise man (or woman), seeing his own mind in its natural state can use this to help heal himself and understand the nature of his own illness. However, he (she) must be aware that what they may be experiencing MAY (or may not) be the product of the chemical imbalances in their own brain. Then there are those few, but I stress THOSE VERY FEW, who are fortunate enough to discover the hidden secret* of extending their meditation beyond the confines of the physical mind/brain and have a TRUE spiritual experience that is NOT a delusion of the physical mind/brain. (It is very difficult to determine the difference between a true spiritual experience and a mental delusion… except by your own conviction and nature of understanding while you are actually experiencing the event.) It is rare to have a true spiritual experience. Even the great masters of the orient will tell you that they only experience one, maybe two, true spiritual experiences in a lifetime. The rest of their lives are spent becoming enlightened to understanding the one or two experiences that they did receive through self examination during meditation. * The reason I say "hidden secret" is that it is not a technique or a knowledge that can be taught or put into words of any kind. it is something within yourself that you must find within yourself, by yourself; that no one can tell you where it is or how to find it. Either you find it on your own, or you don’t; and no teacher, guru, or mystic in the world can give it to you. Hugs from the serial hugger, Ralph

Response:

I’ve never had much success with meditation, unless it be some form of "moving meditation" – e.g. martial arts kata, tai-chi etc. It’s as if the disciplined movement acts as a channel for my normal restlessness. I’ve recently discovered that practicing poi works just as well as tai-chi; it’s my new hobby, and the warm summer days are just perfect for finding an open space, pulling out the poi and weaving pretty patterns whilst I "centre" myself. — Regards, Arkady http://www.arkady.org.uk

Response:

Sexuality

Question:

… Of What I Am Certain

careful (might suggest cmsg this and prior…

Response:

I used to have pen like that too!

On the Rent ($250 or two weeks) and Baker Developments, Joanne and Terry Segarty <ps… the list of five has not changed Segarty, Miles, Priest, Ekman, Johnson… the conditions were the conditions and I have personally witnessed each of these thus, not a judgement, a reality: No. First, I have lived in your apartment for four years (not by choice — need a job to get a house — like that youth crisis center you talked me into designing and writing the proposal for… remember Terry Segarty?… and the $400 printer (couldn’t afford that either) that I bought to print it off for you… got anything to put on those tshirts in prison?…) at a rent that does not even reflect the other rents in the area. Second, the first year in, a toxic black mold started seeping in through the ceiling in our bathroom. The handyman painted it and it got worse. The caulking job in the bathtub was crap too. Then, at Christmas, the handyman was by to fix the wax ring seal in our toilet… it still leaks every time you flush and the mold is now into the floor. When I cough the black crap comes up. Said he was coming back the next week after my guests had left to fix it all. Third, the fridge does not work, and the kitchen tap is leaking and the dryer hasn’t woked correctly in three years. I guess we know now when we will be seeing that rent. <ps.. the ladies first Any questions? On Council and the Minimum Effort Required by Law (oh by the way, 10 years of commitees and you spent the ’stroke’ before the work got done and now, the work will most likely never be completed ‘Nice Truck Ross!’, the trail is rich and can be seen by all… I am not at he root of this cities evil… but I know who is: How do you like my new personal living room /gym /art studio? I needed another place to go during the day. I was going stir crazy breathing black toxic mold with nothing to do. How will I pay? Mmmmm. Councillor. OR — I can train the Ice, on the ice (in the arena) for $500/month. — I can train with the Eagles Boxing Center for $250/month. — I can offer councilling <as a reward for good behavior (I am certified as Don Flowers knows) during the day in my ‘home’ for $500/month. (my problem is with Loot-it. Don hired me to get rid of him and, in my second opinion… he deserves to be fired.) — I can tutor in my ‘home’ Mon/Wed (4 students) and Tue/Thu (4 — I will will benefit the city by teaching martial dance to a small group of students (30 max.) at the Studio, Armond Theatre, OR Keycity Theatre. For local performances (socials, dances, weddings, etc…) and touring. — I will present a fully developed musical production (45m to 1 hour) of ‘the Cranbrook Ed story’ for the ‘CENTENIAL (not millinial Cranbrook is not a 1000 years old loser)’. The rest, is for my personal friends. $5 a lesson. That is the last time I will say that. Openly nothing,

Response:

Prety good nonsense. I experimented with translating it to Chinese then back, but it wasn’t any better than this Did you get this from some place, or is this just "your Dao"?

Of What I Am Certain by God Throw me in prison. I will turn them against you as they witnessed first. Throw me in isolation in prison. I will release my self to myself. Leave me in the population. Same effects. Where have I heard that before? And yet, it is unlike any other. Funds and US currency). If I have served humanity well <theOrder is the bonus. (Is that too much? I certainly don’t want more than doctor evil!) If not, Tick. Tock. The means I have. I have another offer; on the line: learn it now. Later? ‘There will be a difference.’ Let it not be you as it is forbidden. Forbidden ‘was and act of love’ not a boundry. Betrayal is not an option it is a choice. Clarity is all. I am not strict, I am well defined. The difference? Freedom vs. Fear. Of both, I am which? None. What you fear in me is not me. It is you. On the absoluteness of truth: It is colder without stories to warm the fire. But let us not forget. It was cold first. ‘Comfort and warmth’ is not hell, fire or brimestone. It is the first children’s story told to you by the first person that ever loved you for who you were, who you could become, and what you were meant to be. A child of God. Joy is Buddha nature. God, or what ‘was’ God is what was, is, and will be sacrificed so that ‘you’ might exist ‘not’ the other way around. Your so-called ‘advantage’ has not served you at all. On Then: It is free from whom ever you serve. On Buddhism: It is the right way <whatever that means. The ’statues’ are not idols or graven images. They are a resembelence of the perfect posture(s) of enlightenment. There is a meditation technique where one stares at an object until they become the object. (no not really) It is when the object disappears or the lines are no longer seen but clarity and object ‘act’ivity is achieved. And what have we learned? This is Tao: What is free? Does it come at the cost of another? On the absoluteness of truth: It is colder without stories to warm the fire. But let us not forget. It was cold first. ‘Comfort and warmth’ is not hell, fire or brimestone. ‘The Four Noble Truths of Suffering’ are: Suffering is caused by the aging body (which is temporary and impermanent a cycle of lives and deaths until ‘perfect mind’ is achieved), the suffering of accidents that are not caused by ill-intention (weather for example), the suffering of other’s blindness, and the suffering of those that hate us for who we are. I think I can narrow this down to 3. I don’t care if you hate me. And no, are you arrogant enough to believe that if you do not believe I exist that I do not? Then how did we get to here am ‘to whom are you speaking’? The differnce is. I know who I am not in the sea of William’s. Are you ‘certain my way is that which you seek? You do want power don’t you? You do what to hear them scream don’t you? You do want them to suffer the pain of a thousand, no, ten thousand births don’t you? From ‘my’ beginning is ‘my way’. And in the end, I will still be me and you will be the difference. Why? Right mind is shared. Right action is trial and error. Right attitude is the key. Humble your self to me. Not me. You. Allow yourself to be free but harm no one. There are others just like you. ‘Clarity’ leads to right action on both teams. Cheers. Still nothing,

Response:

I used to have pen like that too! Just like the Weekend… long and good! Remember, YOU MAY NOT BE YOU. You will never be happy in a life that is not built for you. Only you know what you want. Only God knows what you need. Hint: aWay of adaptation and not compromise is what you seek. Like a link or channel perhaps? I can do and provide you with that. Let me explain, unless of course it is only answers that you seek in which case, there are none. Please don’t be disappointed. Thus, the answer is yes. An explaination is the effect of reason and logic not trial and error which only yields answers. Nothing happens without reason <not the other way around. Reason is not will but is the first cause. Nothing happens if it is not logical. Thus paradox, although an interesting past time, is not a lock. Pi is as close to random and chaos as one can get but hardly supports a case of nothing matters do whatever you want. House = Soul If I use a life to build a house. At the end of that life, I will have a house. If I do not build a house, I am permitted another chance. If I use my other (meaning only) chance to perform nothing but revenge, vegence, and retaliation against those that did not build me a house… <becuase I did not ask to be taught… being asked to be taught is it. Yup. That simple… but do not be fooled into reaching beyond ‘me’… karma. For example: I do not have to make contact (only words) to explain the Tantric exercise/Kama Sutra… those that suggest otherwise are … well that line is for you to cross (For example: God moves in mysterious ways. Have you ever had a man that, beyond the physical limitations (all in the mind) is experienced as if a woman both spiritually and physically?… so yes… Both men and women posses the Kama Fire and yes, both can be built like fire into a raging inferno of sexuality with ‘first’ consent. There is nothing gay about being a woman. Thus, to entertain a man in mind is not karma and does not create manifest without being <although some who can see this deep may fool you into believing such. Master the way by setting the conditions. For example: I would be with a man sexually if I were a woman but I would not give up my lesbianism being a man first as I am… thus, the order is set. You want me to ‘physically express’ <as opposed to spiritually my bisexuality (natural state)… I will do so in the conscious and aware being of my self in a woman first ‘before future considerations’. However, we all must agree that,after being a woman after having a man it would be very difficult to, becoming a man again and not carry the same passions for men… thus, the physical element then… easy eh?) … then, at the end ‘again’ I will not have a house because I did not build one. trouble is… no more chances. After all… it is based on a logical assumption. Ratio and scale create the effect of dynamics. (Things that move proportionately if not… CRASH everytime.) On Canada: Perhaps, in light of extreme and violent treaty arguments based on the greed of the ’settlers’ (not the pilgrams), a line should be calculated from east to west, coast to coast, determining by average where 80% of the market dwell. The other 20% (translated into land) should be turned back to the first nations for management. They want the land to heal it. Let us see. I am theDoor. You may not pass without this knowledge. There are only two other doors like me. One, is not a door. Philosophy vs. Spiritualism: Philosophy is science. Spiritualism is not. Why? Each is it’s own already. Need science to prove it. Physics is the laws of manifest. Applies to all things ‘even if’ we don’t understand how. Like Karma. Wanna learn how to take absolute discipline (laws that where even essence is guarded) and turn it into a tool like a hammer? Now, these are tools not states. Wanna learn from some one who knows how to uses these tools or not? As I have said before: you ‘can’ use a hammer to chop down a tree. On Tao: Since when did ‘myriad things’ translate into 10,000 things with names <how else would you know that there were/was/is 10,000?. Not two words. Three can contain the ‘Tao dynamic’ not the Tao and that, is why the Tao is un-something-able. The secrets of life to death to life are simple. Your refusal to listen is costing you someone else’s life. If it is someone else’s life why should you care? They may know what you are looking for,  they may be able to give you the ‘frequency’ that you require… shall you close a door because you do not understand? If you say: I have completed without this or that you are not completed. If you are not completed you are void and draw what is missing as well as what you think is missing. One of these is not yours. Be careful on the people you step on to get to the top as they may be the obstacles you must negotiate on the way back down. Like stairs or something. Like Deja Vu. That is what they are for isn’t it? Go head. Here is the mantra (like a trap). My next life depends on the me who I am not the me I think I am as I may not be me. Belief is a Tao object. These are scientific and the science is translated into spiritual meaning. Like tools. As above so below. Nothing will change until something changes and then, all must change. Thus, the self is the definition, the me is the word. Thus, me is how you are built not how you are engineered. Thus, being this or that is not a genetic, biological state of being but rather a choice. You are the perfect (not perfected) state at birth. Thus, you are asexual first then, bisexual next, in the thrid you decide. Hell is a disciplinary tool, not a place where bad people are sent. Saying you will never change is a guarantee that you will. Keeping an open mind is a guarentee that you will. And finally, no, not everything that ‘feels good’ should be done. Why? Look around you. That is why.

Response:

A pretty lousy dance club experience

Question:

"wes" <do_thew…@yahoo.com> wrote in message <news:Lk5G8.267$l62.11348@ozemail.com.au>… > "maddman" <maddman…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:bea807ca.0205191931.1b6f186e@posting.google.com… > >  Desire leads to desperation, which leads to rejection, > > which leads to suffering. > You sound uncannily like Yoda!

Probably because I’ve been reading a lot of Taoism and Buddhism lately.  The Force in SW is pretty much Taoism + super powers. <yoda> Maintain focus you must, or unused your cock will be! </yoda>

Response:

In article <Lk5G8.267$l62.11…@ozemail.com.au>, wes says… >"maddman" <maddman…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:bea807ca.0205191931.1b6f186e@posting.google.com… >>  Desire leads to desperation, which leads to rejection, >> which leads to suffering. >You sound uncannily like Yoda!

Basic Buddhism. We suffer because we desire, whether our desires are fulfilled or not. According to an old Chinese saying: there are two great tragedies in life, the first is not to get what your heart desires, the second, to get what your heart desires. The tragedy is desire itself. And so, the less we desire, the less we suffer. But if people choose to suffer, who are we to stop them? Annie

Response:

On Mon, 20 May 2002 MouseG…@anon.com wrote: > The tragedy is desire itself. > And so, the less we desire, the less we suffer. But if people choose to suffer, > who are we to stop them?

I have far fewer desires now than I did seven years ago.  Disappointment and failure have eroded many of my once-desires almost to nothingness. Yet I don’t feel any happier for it.  If anything, I feel worse.  I have a strong sense that I’m missing something, even if I no longer care about the things that I used to desire.  Maybe what I desire is – to desire again? — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: h…@anon.twwells.com   — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com  – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator

Response:

In article <accckm$pv…@server.junkproof.net>, anon-30…@anon.twwells.com says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->On Mon, 20 May 2002 MouseG…@anon.com wrote: >> The tragedy is desire itself. >> And so, the less we desire, the less we suffer. But if people choose to suffer, >> who are we to stop them? >I have far fewer desires now than I did seven years ago.  Disappointment >and failure have eroded many of my once-desires almost to nothingness. >Yet I don’t feel any happier for it.  If anything, I feel worse.  I have a >strong sense that I’m missing something, even if I no longer care about >the things that I used to desire.  Maybe what I desire is – to desire >again?

I have not achieved a blissful waking nirvana yet. Desire still creaps into my heart. There are times when I become fully awake to my predicament and look around myself in panic and fear. I will sit in the corner, wrapped in a blanket, overwhelmed with loneliness, weeping. There is a young man in one of my classes for whom I feel a strong attraction. But I don’t imagine that he notices me at all. If he actually did say something to me, I would probably faint with embarrassment.  He is intellegent and seems secure with himself and those around him. I sit so I can watch him, but so he would have to turn around to see me. Seeing him three days a week  awakens in me those carnal  energies I try so hard to suppress. I once dreamed that he kissed me. It upset me for days. So now I look for reasons to dislike him. All the while, he is unaware of my existence.  It is pathetically amusing. It is easy for me to say – avoid attachments, feel no desire.  It is harder to accomplish. Soon this will end and I will not see him and my foolish feelings will go away. An

Response:

<MouseG…@anon.com> wrote in message

news:byrG8.18391$15.6096@www.newsranger.com… > In article <accckm$pv…@server.junkproof.net>,

anon-30…@anon.twwells.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> says… > >On Mon, 20 May 2002 MouseG…@anon.com wrote: > >> The tragedy is desire itself. > >> And so, the less we desire, the less we suffer. But if people choose to suffer, > >> who are we to stop them? > >I have far fewer desires now than I did seven years ago.  Disappointment > >and failure have eroded many of my once-desires almost to nothingness. > >Yet I don’t feel any happier for it.  If anything, I feel worse.  I have a > >strong sense that I’m missing something, even if I no longer care about > >the things that I used to desire.  Maybe what I desire is – to desire > >again? > I have not achieved a blissful waking nirvana yet. Desire still creaps into my > heart. > There are times when I become fully awake to my predicament and look around > myself in panic and fear. > I will sit in the corner, wrapped in a blanket, overwhelmed with loneliness, > weeping.

Does anyone ever reach perfection. It is a goal to strive for, but not one tht is attainable. I do not see why it is wrong to have desire. I think the point is to be aware of it, but not to let it consume. > There is a young man in one of my classes for whom I feel a strong attraction. > But I don’t imagine that he notices me at all. If he actually did say > something to me, I would probably faint with embarrassment.  He is intellegent > and seems secure with himself and those around him. I sit so I can > watch him, but so he would have to turn around to see me. Seeing him three days > a week  awakens in me those carnal  energies I try so hard to > suppress. I once dreamed that he kissed me. It upset me for days. > So now I look for reasons to dislike him.

It is not wrong or bad to feel attracted to this guy. Nor are carnal desires wrong. Humans were created that way. Annie, accept that you like him, and do not look for reasons to dislike him. This will consume you even more than any carnal desires. > All the while, he is unaware of my existence.  It is pathetically amusing. > It is easy for me to say – avoid attachments, feel no desire.  It is harder to > accomplish. > Soon this will end and I will not see him and my foolish feelings will go

away. Your feelings are not foolish. Like all of us you have wants and needs. Love, intimacy and affection are all part of being human. They are not foolish, but the best part of being human. I know your stuttering makes it hard for you, and I honestly can’t imagine how much. But you are intelligent, compassionate, kind and plenty of other good things. People will accept and like you despite the stuttering, although there are those who never will (and you would be best off without them). Do not push them away, but try to be open for those with whom you might connect.

Response:

anon-30…@anon.twwells.com wrote in news:accckm$pvt$1@server.junkproof.net: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Mon, 20 May 2002 MouseG…@anon.com wrote: >> The tragedy is desire itself. >> And so, the less we desire, the less we suffer. But if people choose >> to suffer, who are we to stop them? > I have far fewer desires now than I did seven years ago. > Disappointment and failure have eroded many of my once-desires almost > to nothingness. > Yet I don’t feel any happier for it.  If anything, I feel worse.  I > have a strong sense that I’m missing something, even if I no longer > care about the things that I used to desire.  Maybe what I desire is – > to desire again?

I know how you feel, I think.  I’ve definitely been at the point where I wasn’t feeling much desire and I missed the part of myself that was very intense, frustrated, and driven.  Right now I feel extremely frustrated and driven, and well, it’s just frustrating:) I think that all that stuff about desire being the root of suffering, and that our goal is to try and reach a more enlightened state by eliminating desire and enjoying the present, is just so much fluff talk designed by people like Maddman in order to seduce women:)  Trying to increase our sexual power by trying to hide the fact that we’re all basically hormonal prisoners.  (I’m only about 10% serious here!)

Response:

MouseG…@anon.com wrote in <byrG8.18391$15.6…@www.newsranger.com>: >In article <accckm$pv…@server.junkproof.net>, >anon-30…@anon.twwells.com says… >>I have far fewer desires now than I did seven years ago. >>Disappointment and failure have eroded many of my once-desires almost >>to nothingness.

Missed this comment from anon-30805, but I know what you’re saying – I see many women, some of incredible attractiveness, but no longer have desire, not phyisical anyway – there are those with whom I would like social or intellectual interaction but going beyond that seems unimaginable.  I cannot remember experiencing strong physical desire, lust – I think I am the poorer for it, although maybe better off than being solely motivated by lust as some seem to be.  Of course, I have desires for other things, but they are merely things, and I don’t imagine this is what you mean. >>Yet I don’t feel any happier for it.  If anything, I feel worse.  I >>have a strong sense that I’m missing something, even if I no longer >>care about the things that I used to desire.  Maybe what I desire is – >>to desire again?

Maybe, I think that to never desire is to have an important part of one effectively dead, but with desire can come its evil twin, hope.   >I have not achieved a blissful waking nirvana yet. Desire still creaps >into my heart.

Can I suggest most seriously, Annie, that you not go overboard in feeling that desire is to be resisted, that maybe a blissful nirvana in which desire is totally absent is not a healthy goal. >There are times when I become fully awake to my predicament and look >around myself in panic and fear. >I will sit in the corner, wrapped in a blanket, overwhelmed with >loneliness, weeping.

I know that experience, have even come to an understanding of why people might take drugs or alcohol to wipe out time but that has less appeal than facing these periods of distress. Its a mad fucking world, isn’t it – here’s you, a regular Goddess, all those things Davros said of you and possibly more, yet you haven’t found an Annie-sized space in the world and fear you never will. This fellow in your class, the one you sit behind so he can’t see you – I’m with Davros, in saying that having some sort of feelings for him comes with the territory of being a human being, nothing foolish about it at all, unless you believe the human condition is innately foolish.  And we here know he is missing something special if he doesn’t notice you.

Response:

"davros" <cd…@iinet.net.au> wrote: > Does anyone ever reach perfection. > It is a goal to strive for, but not one tht is attainable.

What is perfection?  Perfection in state of mind?  I think of it more as contentment, and that is attainable.  Having had it once, it’s what gives me the drive to keep looking for it, and if I never do find it again, at least I will always have the memory of it and the knowledge that I didn’t give up trying to find it again. > I do not see why it is wrong to have desire. > I think the point is to be aware of it, but not to let it consume.

I agree.  Makes life kind of pointless if you have no desires.

Response:

"Restless Scorpio" <restless_scor…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:c048a704.0205210935.51136269@posting.google.com… > "davros" <cd…@iinet.net.au> wrote: > > Does anyone ever reach perfection. > > It is a goal to strive for, but not one tht is attainable. > What is perfection?  Perfection in state of mind?  I think of it more > as contentment, and that is attainable.  Having had it once, it’s > what gives me the drive to keep looking for it, and if I never do > find it again, at least I will always have the memory of it and > the knowledge that I didn’t give up trying to find it again. > > I do not see why it is wrong to have desire. > > I think the point is to be aware of it, but not to let it consume. > I agree.  Makes life kind of pointless if you have no desires.

Besides, wanting to not have desires is a desire in itself.

Response:

Ok, I’m venting here a bit, so if you don’t want to read it, don’t.   Basically my (irrational, perhaps?) thoughts. Anyway, I decided to go to a dance club tonight, basically to get some excercise, to get more comfortable being around people a bit, and maybe to people-watch some, that and seeing women (oh man).   I wanted to try some place where they played techo/trance/house type of stuff, but the one I went to had an insanely long line, so I went to another random club (there are lots in one little area of town) this had another line that was moving extremely slowly.  The good thing is that at this point, I can wait in a line for such a place and feel completely comfortable, like I couldn’t care less if anyone notices that I’m by myself or that I’m not talking to anyone, or if they think I’m a little freaky or something.  There was a woman beside me with a friend who was probably trying to start conversation, but I am really not able to carry one at my current level of social skill. her: Have you been waiting in line long? me: I think I got here just before you did. (10 minute pause) her: Do you know if this line moves quickly me: It sure doesn’t seem to, does it? her: I mean, have you been here on a Friday night before? me: No, I’ve never been here at all. (end of that:) ) I think I managed to also score some bonus points for making precisely zero eye contact during this, anyway… That line just wasn’t moving, so I moved on to yet another club after about half an hour, got in immediately.  It was playing R&B type stuff…  Not something that’s up with my favourites at all!  I actually didn’t mind it though, it was all stuff with very strong beats and that…  A very different club than the couple I’ve been too before, very very crowded, and very loud.  Not a small place, but very little room to move around without bumping into other people.  A pretty young crowd, I’d say. I started off feeling good, moving around, enjoying the music a bit even, despite myself.  That turned to pretty intense frustration in a hurry, being surrounded by all of these really attractive women.  And that basically just got worse and worse and worse, until I was feeling pretty much more lonely and useless than I ever have since my "never done anything with a girl" phase which ended about three years ago.  (And even then it wasn’t that bad, because I convinced myself I could be happy without it.)  Like, just seeing all of these guys picking up women, and being close enough that incidental touching happens very often, and yet feeling completely useless to ever do anything about it, and indeed feeling no further along in progress with being able to take steps like initiating something that I have ever been, despite making tons of progress with other things.  Thinking about how I probably have as much desire and passion as anyone in there, yet I probably appear complete bored and disinterested, which is pretty much what I’m used to. Anyway, I was wallowing in self-pity for a while…  Thinking about how no matter what the payoff, it still wouldn’t be worth all the anxiety of actually making a move, which just seemed completely out of my reach…   Like I wanted to just say "fuck it" and go home and work towards just about anything else…  Writing programs, learning General Relativity, training for a triathlon, writing a novel, making a million dollars, starting a business, entering a powerlifting contest, all of these things which just seem like they are so easy compared to figuring out what it takes to get an interest in the other sex.  And then a guy came up to me and said (I couldn’t really understand what he was saying) that some girl liked me…  I said "what?" and he said something like "she’s got a total hard-on for you, go get her, man!" And so, the conclusion of this was:  maybe some girl wanted to get to know me based on something pretty damn superficial, but of course I didn’t know who he was talking about.  I was also reminded of quite a few cruel jokes in my life where someone would say that a girl liked me.  (Which I never acted on, because I knew they were just cruel jokes.)  And I also knew that based on my conversational ability, the chances that someone would stay interested in me, in an environment like that, after I opened my mouth were vanishingly small anyway.  So the end result was that I felt like useless shit, and likely she (whoever she was) felt like I was completely disinterested, and perhaps a bit of an ass. So anyway, at that point I just left immediately, and started getting ready to write a really bitter post here;)  I put on some Verdi choruses on the way home and was singing high "A"’s and stuff really really loud though, so that made me feel a lot better, and prevented this from being as bitter as it could have been!  But anyway, I think I am going to avoid dance clubs for quite a while.  There are *far* less frustrating and emotionally wrenching ways for me to get cardio-vascular excercise:)

Response:

"maddman" <maddman…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:bea807ca.0205191931.1b6f186e@posting.google.com… >  Desire leads to desperation, which leads to rejection, > which leads to suffering.

You sound uncannily like Yoda!

Response:

"William Parker" <bjpar…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:Xns921376700EDEbjparkersympaticoca@207.35.177.135… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Darkfalz" <darkf…@xis.com.au> wrote in > news:ac7ktj$mun6c$1@ID-108208.news.dfncis.de: > > "William Parker" <bjpar…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > > news:Xns92122769A9745bjparkersympaticoca@206.172.150.13… > >> Ok, I’m venting here a bit, so if you don’t want to read it, don’t. > >> Basically my (irrational, perhaps?) thoughts. > >> Anyway, I decided to go to a dance club tonight, basically to get some > >> excercise, to get more comfortable being around people a bit, and > >> maybe to people-watch some, that and seeing women (oh man). > > That’s all well and good. But remember that you are never, EVER going > > to meet a nice, decent girl in a club. > I don’t believe in the universality of "never evers", but aside from that, I > don’t have any expectations of ever starting a meaningful relationship from > that kind of situation.  (I wouldn’t be dumb enough to ignore the > possibility in the one-in-a-million chance that something might start > though.)  However, to say that having an interesting experience that starts > and ends on the dance floor with no other expectations isn’t extremely > appealing to me is as untrue a sentiment as it is a convoluted one:)

If you just go to perv and to grope (as all the sluts who go do, and to be picked up) then enjoy yourself. It’s not my scene.

Response:

From: meg megmerr…@hotmail.com >If you never go back, it’ll never get easier.  If you keep going, painful >though it is, you can watch the interaction, you can get more comfortable >in the environment, and you increase your chances that some other girl will >get a hard-on for you but will have drunk enough to approach you despite >the fact that you look disinterested.  :) >I wouldn’t normally say "It hurt, keep doing it!", but the fact is, you >mentioned you enjoyed it at first.  So next time go and enjoy it for five >minutes longer before that other stuff kicks in.  And the time after that, >eight minutes.  And so on.. I’m oversimplifying, but do you get what I >mean?   >Even if you decide not to go back, it’s great that you tried!!

I don’t know about that. I’ve developed a weekly habit of going to clubs without talking to anyone. Granted, these are indie/emo shows, and hardly meat-markets; but usually someone will walk over and ask me what i think of the band. I’m startled when people approach me, so without fail, I always mumble something unintelligable, and let my eyes fall to the floor until they walk away. But the only time it really bothered me was when three guys walked up to me and told me i looked like a famous actress. I barely awknowledged the comment, but they continued to talk and offered to buy drinks etc etc. I walked away to the other side of the room but they continued to stare at me. I left before the headling act got on. The good thing about techno/trance clubs is many people walk around alone — it’s very much a place to spontaneously order. Most people are drugged, so there’s no need to be afraid of them. it’s loud on the dancefloor, but usually there is a "chill out room" with jazzier music to sit and talk. /jm/ the placidly stupid never pay, just as they never recieve, anything – for an unfalltering conviction of superiority – Aldous Huxley

Response:

"William Parker" <bjpar…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:Xns92122769A9745bjparkersympaticoca@206.172.150.13… > Ok, I’m venting here a bit, so if you don’t want to read it, don’t. > Basically my (irrational, perhaps?) thoughts. > Anyway, I decided to go to a dance club tonight, basically to get some > excercise, to get more comfortable being around people a bit, and maybe to > people-watch some, that and seeing women (oh man).

That’s all well and good. But remember that you are never, EVER going to meet a nice, decent girl in a club.

Response:

"Darkfalz" <darkf…@xis.com.au> wrote in news:ac7ktj$mun6c$1@ID-108208.news.dfncis.de: > "William Parker" <bjpar…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:Xns92122769A9745bjparkersympaticoca@206.172.150.13… >> Ok, I’m venting here a bit, so if you don’t want to read it, don’t. >> Basically my (irrational, perhaps?) thoughts. >> Anyway, I decided to go to a dance club tonight, basically to get some >> excercise, to get more comfortable being around people a bit, and >> maybe to people-watch some, that and seeing women (oh man). > That’s all well and good. But remember that you are never, EVER going > to meet a nice, decent girl in a club.

I don’t believe in the universality of "never evers", but aside from that, I don’t have any expectations of ever starting a meaningful relationship from that kind of situation.  (I wouldn’t be dumb enough to ignore the possibility in the one-in-a-million chance that something might start though.)  However, to say that having an interesting experience that starts and ends on the dance floor with no other expectations isn’t extremely appealing to me is as untrue a sentiment as it is a convoluted one:)

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bjpar…@sympatico.ca (William Parker) wrote: >  But anyway, I think I am going to avoid dance clubs for > quite a while.  There are *far* less frustrating and emotionally wrenching > ways for me to get cardio-vascular excercise:)

Rollerblading does it for me. Don’t know what to say about the club.  I was out last night (at a club, but for a concert.)  I was with a friend of mine.  It was my usual experience…. make eye contact with a few women, but never reach the point of actually initiating a conversation.  I still had fun, however. And, I’m much more comfortable in those places these days.  It used to be a struggle for me just to go out and be comfortable.  So I apparently have become a lot more confident, at least with how I present myself. I no longer have that "everyone’s looking at me" feeling. Something else I also noticed is that I get desensitized when I go out frequently, and as soon as I stop going out (like letting a month or more go by without going out anywhere), I get sensitized again and go into sort of a shell.  It’s like I have to regain my confidence anew every time.  So I think Meg has a point that it’s something you have to keep doing frequently, despite the pain.

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bjpar…@sympatico.ca (William Parker) wrote in message <news:Xns92122769A9745bjparkersympaticoca@206.172.150.13>… > Ok, I’m venting here a bit, so if you don’t want to read it, don’t.   > Basically my (irrational, perhaps?) thoughts. > Anyway, I decided to go to a dance club tonight, basically to get some > excercise, to get more comfortable being around people a bit, and maybe to > people-watch some, that and seeing women (oh man).  

Great man!  You’re out there fuckin doin it, working at making yourself happier and sociable. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I wanted to try some place where they played techo/trance/house type of > stuff, but the one I went to had an insanely long line, so I went to another > random club (there are lots in one little area of town) this had another > line that was moving extremely slowly.  The good thing is that at this > point, I can wait in a line for such a place and feel completely > comfortable, like I couldn’t care less if anyone notices that I’m by myself > or that I’m not talking to anyone, or if they think I’m a little freaky or > something.  There was a woman beside me with a friend who was probably > trying to start conversation, but I am really not able to carry one at my > current level of social skill. > her: Have you been waiting in line long? > me: I think I got here just before you did. > (10 minute pause) > her: Do you know if this line moves quickly > me: It sure doesn’t seem to, does it? > her: I mean, have you been here on a Friday night before? > me: No, I’ve never been here at all. > (end of that:) )

She was into you man – that was TWO convo intiations.  You must have the looks.  make the most of it. > I think I managed to also score some bonus points for making precisely zero > eye contact during this, anyway… > That line just wasn’t moving, so I moved on to yet another club after about > half an hour, got in immediately.  It was playing R&B type stuff…  Not > something that’s up with my favourites at all!  I actually didn’t mind it > though, it was all stuff with very strong beats and that…  A very > different club than the couple I’ve been too before, very very crowded, and > very loud.  Not a small place, but very little room to move around without > bumping into other people.  A pretty young crowd, I’d say.

Yeah – sometimes music you normally don’t like sounds different in the situation you are in. > I started off feeling good, moving around, enjoying the music a bit even, > despite myself.  That turned to pretty intense frustration in a hurry, being > surrounded by all of these really attractive women.  And that basically just > got worse and worse and worse, until I was feeling pretty much more lonely > and useless than I ever have since my "never done anything with a girl" > phase which ended about three years ago.  (And even then it wasn’t that bad, > because I convinced myself I could be happy without it.)  Like, just seeing > all of these guys picking up women, and being close enough that incidental > touching happens very often, and yet feeling completely useless to ever do > anything about it, and indeed feeling no further along in progress with > being able to take steps like initiating something that I have ever been, > despite making tons of progress with other things.  Thinking about how I > probably have as much desire and passion as anyone in there, yet I probably > appear complete bored and disinterested, which is pretty much what I’m used > to.

Dude – you are obviously quite intelligent and attractive.  You are going to have a lot less work to do.  That’s great!  You are approaching one of the paradoxes of seduction. You must lose your desire Your desire will give you persistence Allow the desire to keep you working.  But lose it when you are with the girls.  Desire leads to desperation, which leads to rejection, which leads to suffering. Go there to find them, but don’t give a damn what a given girl thinks of you. > Anyway, I was wallowing in self-pity for a while…  Thinking about how no > matter what the payoff, it still wouldn’t be worth all the anxiety of > actually making a move, which just seemed completely out of my reach…  

Bullshit.  That idea will end the first time you touch them.  :).  Its totally worth it. > Like I wanted to just say "fuck it" and go home and work towards just about > anything else…  Writing programs, learning General Relativity, training > for a triathlon, writing a novel, making a million dollars, starting a > business, entering a powerlifting contest, all of these things which just > seem like they are so easy compared to figuring out what it takes to get an > interest in the other sex.  And then a guy came up to me and said (I > couldn’t really understand what he was saying) that some girl liked me…  I > said "what?" and he said something like "she’s got a total hard-on for you, > go get her, man!"

Two in one night – that is amazing dude.  I can count on one hand the number of times a chick has approached me, or had a friend tell me that she was into me.  maybe a signal or two, but nothing this blatent. > And so, the conclusion of this was:  maybe some girl wanted to get to know > me based on something pretty damn superficial, but of course I didn’t know > who he was talking about.  I was also reminded of quite a few cruel jokes in > my life where someone would say that a girl liked me.  (Which I never acted > on, because I knew they were just cruel jokes.)  

Those jokes don’t extend into adulthood. And I also knew that based > on my conversational ability, the chances that someone would stay interested > in me, in an environment like that, after I opened my mouth were vanishingly > small anyway.  So the end result was that I felt like useless shit, and > likely she (whoever she was) felt like I was completely disinterested, and > perhaps a bit of an ass.

No, don’t feel like shit.  Sure, your skills are crap but you went out there.  You are willing to try new things, push the edges of your comfort level.  Skills can be learned. > So anyway, at that point I just left immediately, and started getting ready > to write a really bitter post here;)  I put on some Verdi choruses on the > way home and was singing high "A"’s and stuff really really loud though, so > that made me feel a lot better, and prevented this from being as bitter as > it could have been!  But anyway, I think I am going to avoid dance clubs for > quite a while.  There are *far* less frustrating and emotionally wrenching > ways for me to get cardio-vascular excercise:)

the club is intense, I’ll give you that.  You have a large concentration of hot chicks, but there’s hella competition and the girlies are on guard. You did great man – just keep your eye on the ball.  You are an intelligent, handsome, (I assume) reasonably successful man.  You are what these girls want.  Stop being a dick and give these poor girls a chance to know you

Response:

"Wry Bread" <wrybr…@nwlink.REMOVEcom> wrote in news:ued7clmqjqj8e@corp.supernews.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> her: Have you been waiting in line long? >> me: I think I got here just before you did. >> (10 minute pause) >> her: Do you know if this line moves quickly >> me: It sure doesn’t seem to, does it? >> her: I mean, have you been here on a Friday night before? >> me: No, I’ve never been here at all. >> (end of that:) ) >> I think I managed to also score some bonus points for making precisely >> zero eye contact during this, anyway… > LOL!  You know the conversation is bad when there’s a ten minute pause > in it! > Next time, try asking where they usually go, if they’re from "around > here", etc.

Yeah, I really need to figure out how not to completely freeze up and panic when I’m in a conversation with something female.  Learning how to actually look at someone and smile might only help this too. > This is exactly why I stay out of places like this.  This environment > only emphasizes the superficial, since there really is little > opportunity for anything like conversation.  The guys that succeed do > so because they are confident, look good, dress well, and can dance, > and the competition is fierce.  It’s a shy person’s nightmare.

Well, for me, being so obsessive about going to the gym for quite a long time means that the actual "meat" of me isn’t all that bad!  I don’t see any reason why I couldn’t dress well either, I just need to figure out what to buy.  The attitude behind this would be that if I’m superficially appealing enough, someone might take the time to figure out that there’s quite a bit more here, too, but it doesn’t do any good if there’s no way for anyone to find out. Another thing I’ve done to this end is that I’ve gotten on a tanning bed for the first time ever a couple of times in this last week.  I’m hoping that this will give some kind of plausable illusion that I’ve been outside of my apartment in the last four years:)  And quite literally in my entire life, I’ve never had a tan on any part of my body besides my arms and face, and I’m quite pale normally. I plan on overcompensating on my physical appearance just about as much as I can manage, although I’ll never go as far as surgery;)  This is mainly an attempt to try to feel like I’m not completely physically inferior to everyone else.

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bjpar…@sympatico.ca (William Parker) wrote in news:Xns92122769A9745bjparkersympaticoca@206.172.150.13: > Ok, I’m venting here a bit, so if you don’t want to read it, don’t.   > Basically my (irrational, perhaps?) thoughts. > Anyway, I decided to go to a dance club tonight, basically to get some > excercise, to get more comfortable being around people a bit, and > maybe to people-watch some, that and seeing women (oh man).  

<snip story> Good job!  Seriously. You went, you stood in line, you -tried-.  I don’t think anyone said that kicking shyness would be easy or painless.. Try again at another club in a little while – it’ll probably suck too.  And again and again – be a man of steel, move past your failures and focus on your goal of gettin’ some tail. If you never go back, it’ll never get easier.  If you keep going, painful though it is, you can watch the interaction, you can get more comfortable in the environment, and you increase your chances that some other girl will get a hard-on for you but will have drunk enough to approach you despite the fact that you look disinterested.  :) I wouldn’t normally say "It hurt, keep doing it!", but the fact is, you mentioned you enjoyed it at first.  So next time go and enjoy it for five minutes longer before that other stuff kicks in.  And the time after that, eight minutes.  And so on.. I’m oversimplifying, but do you get what I mean?   Even if you decide not to go back, it’s great that you tried!!

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In article <Xns92125F93014BBmegmerritthotmail…@130.133.1.4>, meg says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->bjpar…@sympatico.ca (William Parker) wrote in >news:Xns92122769A9745bjparkersympaticoca@206.172.150.13: >> Ok, I’m venting here a bit, so if you don’t want to read it, don’t.   >> Basically my (irrational, perhaps?) thoughts. >> Anyway, I decided to go to a dance club tonight, basically to get some >> excercise, to get more comfortable being around people a bit, and >> maybe to people-watch some, that and seeing women (oh man).   ><snip story> >Good job!  Seriously. >You went, you stood in line, you -tried-.  I don’t think anyone said that >kicking shyness would be easy or painless.. Try again at another club in a >little while – it’ll probably suck too.  And again and again – be a man of >steel, move past your failures and focus on your goal of gettin’ some tail. >;) >If you never go back, it’ll never get easier.  If you keep going, painful >though it is, you can watch the interaction, you can get more comfortable >in the environment, and you increase your chances that some other girl will >get a hard-on for you but will have drunk enough to approach you despite >the fact that you look disinterested.  :) >I wouldn’t normally say "It hurt, keep doing it!", but the fact is, you >mentioned you enjoyed it at first.  So next time go and enjoy it for five >minutes longer before that other stuff kicks in.  And the time after that, >eight minutes.  And so on.. I’m oversimplifying, but do you get what I >mean?   >Even if you decide not to go back, it’s great that you tried!!

Meg’s advice is essentially good. Persistence is the key to achieving whatever nebulous goal regarding danceclubs, meeting people, etc, you have.   Personally, danceclubs remind me of one of the lower pits in Dante’s vision of Hell, but to each their own. Friday night I worked until nine. Then I went to a coffee shop/bookstore and read for an hour.   A man with aenormous protruding belly, greasy beard, and thick glasses kept looking at me. And I was accosted briefly by a skaterpunk type with a shaved head. He asked me if I wanted to a" party". I stuttered out "leave me alone". And he went away. I went home. Annie

Response:

meg <megmerr…@hotmail.com> wrote in news:Xns92125F93014BBmegmerritthotmailcom@130.133.1.4: > <snip story> > Good job!  Seriously. > You went, you stood in line, you -tried-.  I don’t think anyone said > that kicking shyness would be easy or painless.. Try again at another > club in a little while – it’ll probably suck too.  And again and again > – be a man of steel, move past your failures and focus on your goal of > gettin’ some tail.

Thanks, I appreciate your post, and what you’re saying, and the eloquence of your analogies:)  I feel like I need to find something that will positively reinforce making effort.  I’ve gone about as far as I can with feeling comfortable in a place like that I think, and the frustrating part is that I don’t feel any closer to what I really want than I’ve ever been, even say three years ago.  Which isn’t really sex, but just the ability to get *some* kind of non-platonic interaction with a female happening. I feel better about it now, but when I go in trying to just have fun and be relaxed, and come out just more angry and frustrated than ever, it might be a sign that this isn’t the best thing for me at this point, I don’t know. > If you never go back, it’ll never get easier.  If you keep going, > painful though it is, you can watch the interaction, you can get more > comfortable in the environment, and you increase your chances that some > other girl will get a hard-on for you but will have drunk enough to > approach you despite the fact that you look disinterested.  :)

The trouble is, even in that ideal scenario, I’m still completely useless!   I actually had something like that happen several months ago at a dance club, a woman came right up to me and just got really close and locked eye contact…  I was pretty much terrified, and just had *no* idea what to do, and she went away after a few seconds.  So at this point, unless I figure out how to change the way I react, any woman that wants to initiate anything with me is going to have to break into several cubic feet of psychological barriers, at this point. One thing about what happened, is that the girl did an extremely smart thing (getting a male mediator, being too shy herself.)  And this just made me panic even more, as if I fear the success part much more than the failure even. > I wouldn’t normally say "It hurt, keep doing it!", but the fact is, you > mentioned you enjoyed it at first.  So next time go and enjoy it for > five minutes longer before that other stuff kicks in.  And the time > after that, eight minutes.  And so on.. I’m oversimplifying, but do you > get what I mean?  

Yes I do.  An attitude of giving up and not being willing to try any more is, of course, good for nothing at all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Even if you decide not to go back, it’s great that you tried!!

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<MouseG…@anon.com> wrote: > A man with aenormous protruding belly, greasy beard, and thick glasses kept > looking at me. And I was accosted briefly by a skaterpunk type with a > shaved head. He asked me if I wanted to a" party". I stuttered out "leave me > alone". And he went away.

Hey!  That’s no way to make friends.  What kind of guy *would* you accept? : P

Response:

"Wry Bread" <wrybr…@nwlink.REMOVEcom> wrote in message

news:ued7clmqjqj8e@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> William Parker <bjpar…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:Xns92122769A9745bjparkersympaticoca@206.172.150.13… > > Ok, I’m venting here a bit, so if you don’t want to read it, don’t. > > Basically my (irrational, perhaps?) thoughts. > > Anyway, I decided to go to a dance club tonight, basically to get some > > excercise, to get more comfortable being around people a bit, and maybe to > > people-watch some, that and seeing women (oh man). > > I wanted to try some place where they played techo/trance/house type of > > stuff, but the one I went to had an insanely long line, so I went to > another > > random club (there are lots in one little area of town) this had another > > line that was moving extremely slowly.  The good thing is that at this > > point, I can wait in a line for such a place and feel completely > > comfortable, like I couldn’t care less if anyone notices that I’m by > myself > > or that I’m not talking to anyone, or if they think I’m a little freaky or > > something.  There was a woman beside me with a friend who was probably > > trying to start conversation, but I am really not able to carry one at my > > current level of social skill. > > her: Have you been waiting in line long? > > me: I think I got here just before you did. > > (10 minute pause) > > her: Do you know if this line moves quickly > > me: It sure doesn’t seem to, does it? > > her: I mean, have you been here on a Friday night before? > > me: No, I’ve never been here at all. > > (end of that:) ) > > I think I managed to also score some bonus points for making precisely > zero > > eye contact during this, anyway… > LOL!  You know the conversation is bad when there’s a ten minute pause in > it! > Next time, try asking where they usually go, if they’re from "around here", > etc. > Anyway, I never would have been in line in the first place. > > I started off feeling good, moving around, enjoying the music a bit even, > > despite myself.  That turned to pretty intense frustration in a hurry, > being > > surrounded by all of these really attractive women.  And that basically > just > > got worse and worse and worse, until I was feeling pretty much more lonely > > and useless than I ever have since my "never done anything with a girl" > > phase which ended about three years ago.  (And even then it wasn’t that > bad, > > because I convinced myself I could be happy without it.)  Like, just > seeing > > all of these guys picking up women, and being close enough that incidental > > touching happens very often, and yet feeling completely useless to ever do > > anything about it, and indeed feeling no further along in progress with > > being able to take steps like initiating something that I have ever been, > > despite making tons of progress with other things.  Thinking about how I > > probably have as much desire and passion as anyone in there, yet I > probably > > appear complete bored and disinterested, which is pretty much what I’m > used > > to. > This is exactly why I stay out of places like this.  This environment only > emphasizes the superficial, since there really is little opportunity for > anything like conversation.  The guys that succeed do so because they are > confident, look good, dress well, and can dance, and the competition is > fierce.  It’s a shy person’s nightmare.

I agree there although I’ve never been into any club in my life cuz I hardly ever go out. I just hope that I will invited to something which will keep me ticking over socially for a month or so. I get depressed cuz I am too shy even to ask close fiends whether they want to do something. Sometimes I even turn invitations down cuz I start to worry about everything – what is the dress code to places cuz I’ve never been anywhere like a club before, what to say, how to act so I don’t go, stay home and feel sad. I admire you william for having the confidence to go out to a club on your own – i’m way too shy to do that. Life bites. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

William Parker <bjpar…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:Xns92122769A9745bjparkersympaticoca@206.172.150.13… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ok, I’m venting here a bit, so if you don’t want to read it, don’t. > Basically my (irrational, perhaps?) thoughts. > Anyway, I decided to go to a dance club tonight, basically to get some > excercise, to get more comfortable being around people a bit, and maybe to > people-watch some, that and seeing women (oh man). > I wanted to try some place where they played techo/trance/house type of > stuff, but the one I went to had an insanely long line, so I went to another > random club (there are lots in one little area of town) this had another > line that was moving extremely slowly.  The good thing is that at this > point, I can wait in a line for such a place and feel completely > comfortable, like I couldn’t care less if anyone notices that I’m by myself > or that I’m not talking to anyone, or if they think I’m a little freaky or > something.  There was a woman beside me with a friend who was probably > trying to start conversation, but I am really not able to carry one at my > current level of social skill. > her: Have you been waiting in line long? > me: I think I got here just before you did. > (10 minute pause) > her: Do you know if this line moves quickly > me: It sure doesn’t seem to, does it? > her: I mean, have you been here on a Friday night before? > me: No, I’ve never been here at all. > (end of that:) ) > I think I managed to also score some bonus points for making precisely zero > eye contact during this, anyway…

LOL!  You know the conversation is bad when there’s a ten minute pause in it! Next time, try asking where they usually go, if they’re from "around here", etc. Anyway, I never would have been in line in the first place. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I started off feeling good, moving around, enjoying the music a bit even, > despite myself.  That turned to pretty intense frustration in a hurry, being > surrounded by all of these really attractive women.  And that basically just > got worse and worse and worse, until I was feeling pretty much more lonely > and useless than I ever have since my "never done anything with a girl" > phase which ended about three years ago.  (And even then it wasn’t that bad, > because I convinced myself I could be happy without it.)  Like, just seeing > all of these guys picking up women, and being close enough that incidental > touching happens very often, and yet feeling completely useless to ever do > anything about it, and indeed feeling no further along in progress with > being able to take steps like initiating something that I have ever been, > despite making tons of progress with other things.  Thinking about how I > probably have as much desire and passion as anyone in there, yet I probably > appear complete bored and disinterested, which is pretty much what I’m used > to.

This is exactly why I stay out of places like this.  This environment only emphasizes the superficial, since there really is little opportunity for anything like conversation.  The guys that succeed do so because they are confident, look good, dress well, and can dance, and the competition is fierce.  It’s a shy person’s nightmare.

Response:

"William Parker" <bjpar…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:Xns92122769A9745bjparkersympaticoca@206.172.150.13… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ok, I’m venting here a bit, so if you don’t want to read it, don’t. > Basically my (irrational, perhaps?) thoughts. > Anyway, I decided to go to a dance club tonight, basically to get some > excercise, to get more comfortable being around people a bit, and maybe to > people-watch some, that and seeing women (oh man). > I wanted to try some place where they played techo/trance/house type of > stuff, but the one I went to had an insanely long line, so I went to another > random club (there are lots in one little area of town) this had another > line that was moving extremely slowly.  The good thing is that at this > point, I can wait in a line for such a place and feel completely > comfortable, like I couldn’t care less if anyone notices that I’m by myself > or that I’m not talking to anyone, or if they think I’m a little freaky or > something.  There was a woman beside me with a friend who was probably > trying to start conversation, but I am really not able to carry one at my > current level of social skill. > her: Have you been waiting in line long? > me: I think I got here just before you did. > (10 minute pause) > her: Do you know if this line moves quickly > me: It sure doesn’t seem to, does it? > her: I mean, have you been here on a Friday night before? > me: No, I’ve never been here at all. > (end of that:) )

Well, I’m the opposite of that.  I wouldn’t feel comfortable in the line at all, but if someone spoke to me, I would be able to chat back.  Sure, she’s just fluff talking, but that’s how conversations start.  Although, if I was in that situation, I’d probably be weary of the ‘Who are you here with?’, if I didn’t have a good response. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think I managed to also score some bonus points for making precisely zero > eye contact during this, anyway… > That line just wasn’t moving, so I moved on to yet another club after about > half an hour, got in immediately.  It was playing R&B type stuff…  Not > something that’s up with my favourites at all!  I actually didn’t mind it > though, it was all stuff with very strong beats and that…  A very > different club than the couple I’ve been too before, very very crowded, and > very loud.  Not a small place, but very little room to move around without > bumping into other people.  A pretty young crowd, I’d say. > I started off feeling good, moving around, enjoying the music a bit even, > despite myself.  That turned to pretty intense frustration in a hurry, being > surrounded by all of these really attractive women.  And that basically just > got worse and worse and worse, until I was feeling pretty much more lonely > and useless than I ever have since my "never done anything with a girl" > phase which ended about three years ago.  (And even then it wasn’t that bad, > because I convinced myself I could be happy without it.)  Like, just seeing > all of these guys picking up women, and being close enough that incidental > touching happens very often, and yet feeling completely useless to ever do > anything about it, and indeed feeling no further along in progress with > being able to take steps like initiating something that I have ever been, > despite making tons of progress with other things.  Thinking about how I > probably have as much desire and passion as anyone in there, yet I probably > appear complete bored and disinterested, which is pretty much what I’m used > to. > Anyway, I was wallowing in self-pity for a while…  Thinking about how no > matter what the payoff, it still wouldn’t be worth all the anxiety of > actually making a move, which just seemed completely out of my reach… > Like I wanted to just say "fuck it" and go home and work towards just about > anything else…  Writing programs, learning General Relativity, training > for a triathlon, writing a novel, making a million dollars, starting a > business, entering a powerlifting contest, all of these things which just > seem like they are so easy compared to figuring out what it takes to get an > interest in the other sex.  And then a guy came up to me and said (I > couldn’t really understand what he was saying) that some girl liked me… I > said "what?" and he said something like "she’s got a total hard-on for you, > go get her, man!" > And so, the conclusion of this was:  maybe some girl wanted to get to know > me based on something pretty damn superficial, but of course I didn’t know > who he was talking about.  I was also reminded of quite a few cruel jokes in > my life where someone would say that a girl liked me.  (Which I never acted > on, because I knew they were just cruel jokes.)  And I also knew that based > on my conversational ability, the chances that someone would stay interested > in me, in an environment like that, after I opened my mouth were vanishingly > small anyway.  So the end result was that I felt like useless shit, and > likely she (whoever she was) felt like I was completely disinterested, and > perhaps a bit of an ass. > So anyway, at that point I just left immediately, and started getting ready > to write a really bitter post here;)  I put on some Verdi choruses on the > way home and was singing high "A"’s and stuff really really loud though, so > that made me feel a lot better, and prevented this from being as bitter as > it could have been!  But anyway, I think I am going to avoid dance clubs for > quite a while.  There are *far* less frustrating and emotionally wrenching > ways for me to get cardio-vascular excercise:)

– "Did you know that disco record sales were up 400% for the year ending 1976? If these trends continues… AAY!" – Disco Stu http://www.campbellstp.demon.co.uk – Visit me! Stuart

Response:

Criticism and enmity (was Re: On edge)

Question:

it personally. Just because people criticize you doesn’t automatically mean they are your enemy. E. Wow!!! Such a great piece of wisdom! Tang Huyen

Response:

a thicker skin and don’t take it personally. Just because people criticize you

doesn’t automatically mean they are your enemy. E. Wow!!! Such a great piece of wisdom! Tang Huyen

and so how have you fared in the skin department? g. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

take it personally. Just because people criticize you doesn’t automatically mean they are your enemy. E. Wow!!! Such a great piece of wisdom! Tang Huyen

Yes, it is a great piece of wisdom.   I am glad you are beginning to recognize it as such. Evelyn

Response:

take it personally. Just because people criticize you doesn’t automatically mean they are your enemy. E. Wow!!! Such a great piece of wisdom! Tang Huyen

But … thicker and thicker skin … isn’t it exactly what the dinausaurs did ? With the results we know. Well ok their version was more like "Just because people criticize you doesn’t automatically mean they are not likable — as food" lol Gileht

Response:

it personally. Just because people criticize you doesn’t automatically mean they are your enemy. E. Wow!!! Such a great piece of wisdom! Tang Huyen

Would it be out of place for me to suggest that "Tang" and "Evelyn" are both constructions of memory? Or do either of you two have a real solid identity that excludes the other? norbu "pain in the ass" tragri

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – don’t take it personally. Just because people criticize you doesn’t automatically mean they are your enemy. E. Wow!!! Such a great piece of wisdom! Tang Huyen Would it be out of place for me to suggest that "Tang" and "Evelyn" are both constructions of memory? Or do either of you two have a real solid identity that excludes the other? norbu "pain in the ass" tragri

Norbu, for three plus years now, I have hoped for normal civilized dialogue on these newsgroups involving all the participants here, but Tang has a great anger inside of him and cannot seem to get over it.   It isn’t my problem it’s his. Evelyn

Response:

Evelyn Ruut: <<My advice to you is to grow a thicker skin and don’t take it personally. Just because people criticize you doesn’t automatically mean they are your enemy. E. Tang: <<Wow!!! Such a great piece of wisdom! Norbu: <<Would it be out of place for me to suggest that "Tang" and "Evelyn" are both constructions of memory? Or do either of you two have a real solid identity that excludes the other? norbu "pain in the ass" tragri The Evelyn who tries repeated to pass off pop-psych and New Agey trash as Buddhism surely is not a construction of memory, as I see her posts out there in recent days, for instance on self and others. Even her surrogate son Mizar5/Jigme, who often quotes the Pali canon, could not come up with anything to back her up upon that one, though the two are always so eager to support each other. She may want to apply to herself her own wisdom, as above. Norbu, if you want to help her relieve at least some of her suffering, you may want to advise her (which however is futile, as countless others have tried before, all in vain) to totally ignore my posts and the replies to them. By excluding me from her life, or at least her Usenet life, she may attain to some of that peace and tranquillity that she proclaims for herself so frequently. Tang Huyen

Response:

Why should we pay any attention to someone who is an admitted failure by his own standards? Especially, why should we pay attention to an admitted failure when he makes disparaging remarks about others? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Evelyn Ruut: <<My advice to you is to grow a thicker skin and don’t take it personally. Just because people criticize you doesn’t automatically mean they are your enemy. E. Tang: <<Wow!!! Such a great piece of wisdom! Norbu: <<Would it be out of place for me to suggest that "Tang" and "Evelyn" are both constructions of memory? Or do either of you two have a real solid identity that excludes the other? norbu "pain in the ass" tragri The Evelyn who tries repeated to pass off pop-psych and New Agey trash as Buddhism surely is not a construction of memory, as I see her posts out there in recent days, for instance on self and others. Even her surrogate son Mizar5/Jigme, who often quotes the Pali canon, could not come up with anything to back her up upon that one, though the two are always so eager to support each other. She may want to apply to herself her own wisdom, as above. Norbu, if you want to help her relieve at least some of her suffering, you may want to advise her (which however is futile, as countless others have tried before, all in vain) to totally ignore my posts and the replies to them. By excluding me from her life, or at least her Usenet life, she may attain to some of that peace and tranquillity that she proclaims for herself so frequently. Tang Huyen

– Sphere. Forget perfection. Forget permanence. Forget essence. — I am a bad idea.

Response:

Evelyn Ruut: <<My advice to you is to grow a thicker skin and don’t take it personally. Just because people criticize you doesn’t automatically mean they are your enemy. Tang: <<Wow!!! Such a great piece of wisdom! Norbu: <<Would it be out of place for me to suggest that "Tang" and "Evelyn" are both constructions of memory? Or do either of you two have a real solid identity that excludes the other? norbu "pain in the ass" tragri

we concur w this approach. re constructions of memory, see our comments at bottom of screen. The Evelyn who tries repeated to pass off pop-psych and New Agey trash as Buddhism surely is not a construction of memory, as I see her posts out there in recent days, for instance on self and others. Even her surrogate son Mizar5/Jigme, who often quotes the Pali canon, could not come up with anything to back her up upon that one, though the two are always so eager to support each other.

we r pleased to offer some assistance. re mizar5 – the mizarians neither support nor oppose individuals or factions. & have never supported any specific statments of evelyn herein. re jigme – altho yr battles w jigme r over y do u seek to revive them thru mizar? criticism & enmity r unrequited; do not expect all to share the same interests. She may want to apply to herself her own wisdom, as above. Norbu, if you want to help her relieve at least some of her suffering, you may want to advise her (which however is futile, as countless others have tried before, all in vain) to totally ignore my posts and the replies to them.

we note that u started & titled this thread,  complaining of yr own exasperation w others, complaining of criticism & enmity. here r some general comments on the criticism & enmity: to whom  r u appealing for sympathy? who can assauge the pain of anguish? those who wrong u strike u but once but dwelling in anger u continually flagelate yrself. y bind yrself to those who have wronged u? of all who wrong u, memory is the worst offender.

Response:

Why should we pay any attention to someone who is an admitted failure by his own standards?

because we do not judge others by their standards but our own. Especially, why should we pay attention to an admitted failure when he makes disparaging remarks about others?

we heed the anguish of others because budism’s resolve is to extinguish suffering. disparaging remarks about others r merely misplaced self-criticism. they can also move us to empathy.

Response:

Why should we pay any attention to someone who is an admitted failure by his own standards? because we do not judge others by their standards but our own.

Some do. Especially, why should we pay attention to an admitted failure when he makes disparaging remarks about others? we heed the anguish of others because budism’s resolve is to extinguish suffering. disparaging remarks about others r merely misplaced self-criticism. they can also move us to empathy.

This is a possibility. While I understand the mizarian sensibilities and viewpoint, I do not fully share them.  The question of what type of boundaries should be used in partitioning existence is not only incompletely determinable, the choice is also not static. Choosing to see the ’self-criticism’ as misplaced implies one framework of boundaries, and it is possible to choose this framework.  It is also possible to see the ’self-criticism’ as an undesirable disturbance within a local social structure, to see it as belonging to oneself, or any of a host of other frameworks.  Which framework to use has not been decided. — Sphere. "He reviled me; he injured me; he defeated me;  he deprived me."  In those who harbor such  grudges, hatred never ceases.      – Dhammapada I.3

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why should we pay any attention to someone who is an admitted failure by his own standards? because we do not judge others by their standards but our own. Some do. Especially, why should we pay attention to an admitted failure when he makes disparaging remarks about others? we heed the anguish of others because budism’s resolve is to extinguish suffering. disparaging remarks about others r merely misplaced self-criticism. they can also move us to empathy. This is a possibility. While I understand the mizarian sensibilities and viewpoint, I do not fully share them.  The question of what type of boundaries should be used in partitioning existence is not only incompletely determinable, the choice is also not static. Choosing to see the ’self-criticism’ as misplaced implies one framework of boundaries, and it is possible to choose this framework.  It is also possible to see the ’self-criticism’ as an undesirable disturbance within a local social structure, to see it as belonging to oneself, or any of a host of other frameworks.  Which framework to use has not been decided. — Sphere. "He reviled me; he injured me; he defeated me;  he deprived me."  In those who harbor such  grudges, hatred never ceases.      – Dhammapada I.3

   "I am quite willing to be as unpleasant as necessary to get rid of HC. If necessary, I shall be unpleasant to people who provide HC comfort/shelter. I want the asshole out of here." — Sphere

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       Standards Lost!   Reward – 100 Rupees 1 standard poodle 1 standard noodle 1 american standard toilet    my standards    your standards    our standards  standard standards aha! see also "views" we got poodles we got noodles we got licenses and news we got puppy dogs an kittens we got barks an we got mews what ain’t we got? we ain’t got views! make a distinction….     call it the "first distinction"…. Whoever makes the first distinction can claim to be God. Ummm….   Nevermind. Knee-jerk reaction.

In that case… It appears that you made the first distinction. — Sphere. "He reviled me; he injured me; he defeated me;  he deprived me."  In those who harbor such  grudges, hatred never ceases.      – Dhammapada I.3

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       Standards Lost!   Reward – 100 Rupees 1 standard poodle 1 standard noodle 1 american standard toilet    my standards    your standards    our standards  standard standards aha! see also "views" we got poodles we got noodles we got licenses and news we got puppy dogs an kittens we got barks an we got mews what ain’t we got? we ain’t got views! make a distinction….     call it the "first distinction"…. Whoever makes the first distinction can claim to be God. Ummm….   Nevermind. — Sphere. ’scuse me – could we have anatta anicca dukkha back? either way….? "i am a bad idea" was pretty good, too. u know "dookey" (as in Green Day album) was from dukkha? hahahaa!

Sphere is bouncing around furiously in search for himself.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why should we pay any attention to someone who is an admitted failure by his own standards? because we do not judge others by their standards but our own. Some do. Especially, why should we pay attention to an admitted failure when he makes disparaging remarks about others? we heed the anguish of others because budism’s resolve is to extinguish suffering. disparaging remarks about others r merely misplaced self-criticism. they can also move us to empathy. This is a possibility. While I understand the mizarian sensibilities and viewpoint, I do not fully share them.  The question of what type of boundaries should be used in partitioning existence is not only incompletely determinable, the choice is also not static. Choosing to see the ’self-criticism’ as misplaced implies one framework of boundaries, and it is possible to choose this framework.  It is also possible to see the ’self-criticism’ as an undesirable disturbance within a local social structure, to see it as belonging to oneself, or any of a host of other frameworks.  Which framework to use has not been decided. — Sphere. "He reviled me; he injured me; he defeated me;  he deprived me."  In those who harbor such  grudges, hatred never ceases.      – Dhammapada I.3    "I am quite willing to be as unpleasant as necessary to get rid of HC. If necessary, I shall be unpleasant to people who provide HC comfort/shelter. I want the asshole out of here." — Sphere

the question is… do either of u bear a grudge? its appears natural for 2 humans to argue, even form antipathies. but budists also aim to put an end to suffering. .

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why should we pay any attention to someone who is an admitted failure by his own standards? because we do not judge others by their standards but our own. Some do. Especially, why should we pay attention to an admitted failure when he makes disparaging remarks about others? we heed the anguish of others because budism’s resolve is to extinguish suffering. disparaging remarks about others r merely misplaced self-criticism. they can also move us to empathy. This is a possibility. While I understand the mizarian sensibilities and viewpoint, I do not fully share them.  The question of what type of boundaries should be used in partitioning existence is not only incompletely determinable, the choice is also not static. Choosing to see the ’self-criticism’ as misplaced implies one framework of boundaries, and it is possible to choose this framework.  It is also possible to see the ’self-criticism’ as an undesirable disturbance within a local social structure, to see it as belonging to oneself, or any of a host of other frameworks.  Which framework to use has not been decided. — Sphere. "He reviled me; he injured me; he defeated me;  he deprived me."  In those who harbor such  grudges, hatred never ceases.      – Dhammapada I.3    "I am quite willing to be as unpleasant as necessary to get rid of HC. If necessary, I shall be unpleasant to people who provide HC comfort/shelter. I want the asshole out of here." — Sphere

so, what’s your point?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why should we pay any attention to someone who is an admitted failure by his own standards? because we do not judge others by their standards but our own. Some do. Especially, why should we pay attention to an admitted failure when he makes disparaging remarks about others? we heed the anguish of others because budism’s resolve is to extinguish suffering. disparaging remarks about others r merely misplaced self-criticism. they can also move us to empathy. This is a possibility. While I understand the mizarian sensibilities and viewpoint, I do not fully share them.  The question of what type of boundaries should be used in partitioning existence is not only incompletely determinable, the choice is also not static. Choosing to see the ’self-criticism’ as misplaced implies one framework of boundaries, and it is possible to choose this framework.  It is also possible to see the ’self-criticism’ as an undesirable disturbance within a local social structure, to see it as belonging to oneself, or any of a host of other frameworks.  Which framework to use has not been decided. — Sphere. "He reviled me; he injured me; he defeated me;  he deprived me."  In those who harbor such  grudges, hatred never ceases.      – Dhammapada I.3    "I am quite willing to be as unpleasant as necessary to get rid of HC. If necessary, I shall be unpleasant to people who provide HC comfort/shelter. I want the asshole out of here." — Sphere so, what’s your point?

we think the point is… i don’t hold grudges; do u?

Response:

Sphere: <<Why should we pay any attention to someone who is an admitted failure by his own standards? Mizar5: <<because we do not judge others by their standards but our own. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! This attitude — "to not judge others by their standards but our own" is the very definition of ego-centricism or ethno-centricism. <<You will find swastikas in iconography of early Buddhism in India. It was not carried to other cultures when Buddhism migrated outside of India and SE Asia 2,000 years ago.  Few Buddhists use the swastika today, largely because of the toxic association to Hitler’s regime. In "Re: Hi, is the Swastika a Buddhist religous symbol?" on 2000/06/06. As a Westerner living in Boston, Rick didn’t like the swastika, which was borrowed by the Nazis, and he *therefore* inferred from his cultural imperialism that it "was not carried to other cultures when Buddhism migrated outside of India and SE Asia 2,000 years ago. Few Buddhists use the swastika today, largely because of the toxic association to Hitler’s regime." But the fact is Chinese Buddhist books bear the swastika (but with vertical and horizontal lines, and the outside lines pointing in reverse direction to the Nazi swastika) all over, and it is still used in Chinese and Vietnamese Buddhism as a sign of luck and protection. Many Vietnamese Buddhist wear a necklace with it surrounded by a circle. Rick never cared to actually *look* a posteriori at Buddhists in China, Vietnam, etc. to see what they do with the swastika — that would be beneath his dignity of a Westerner, I suppose. He simply inferred a priori that since he didn’t like it, the Buddhists in East Asia must *also* not like it. They are mere clones of him, created in his august Western image and basking vicariously in his Western superiority. So now Mizar5/Jigme as a simulated (fake) extraterrestrian commits the same hubris of "not judg[ing] others by their standards but our own"! He is the navel of the universe! Tang Huyen

Response:

      Standards Lost!   Reward – 100 Rupees 1 standard poodle 1 standard noodle 1 american standard toilet    my standards    your standards    our standards  standard standards aha! see also "views" we got poodles we got noodles we got licenses and news we got puppy dogs an kittens we got barks an we got mews what ain’t we got? we ain’t got views! make a distinction….     call it the "first distinction"….

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       Standards Lost!   Reward – 100 Rupees 1 standard poodle 1 standard noodle 1 american standard toilet    my standards    your standards    our standards  standard standards aha! see also "views" we got poodles we got noodles we got licenses and news we got puppy dogs an kittens we got barks an we got mews what ain’t we got? we ain’t got views! make a distinction….     call it the "first distinction"….

Whoever makes the first distinction can claim to be God.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       Standards Lost!   Reward – 100 Rupees 1 standard poodle 1 standard noodle 1 american standard toilet    my standards    your standards    our standards  standard standards aha! see also "views" we got poodles we got noodles we got licenses and news we got puppy dogs an kittens we got barks an we got mews what ain’t we got? we ain’t got views! make a distinction….     call it the "first distinction"…. Whoever makes the first distinction can claim to be God.

line forms to the right! stay in line! no pushing!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       Standards Lost!   Reward – 100 Rupees 1 standard poodle 1 standard noodle 1 american standard toilet    my standards    your standards    our standards  standard standards aha! see also "views" we got poodles we got noodles we got licenses and news we got puppy dogs an kittens we got barks an we got mews what ain’t we got? we ain’t got views! make a distinction….     call it the "first distinction"…. Whoever makes the first distinction can claim to be God.

Ummm….   Nevermind. — Sphere.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       Standards Lost!   Reward – 100 Rupees 1 standard poodle 1 standard noodle 1 american standard toilet    my standards    your standards    our standards  standard standards aha! see also "views" we got poodles we got noodles we got licenses and news we got puppy dogs an kittens we got barks an we got mews what ain’t we got? we ain’t got views! make a distinction….     call it the "first distinction"…. Whoever makes the first distinction can claim to be God. Ummm….   Nevermind. — Sphere.

’scuse me – could we have anatta anicca dukkha back? either way….? "i am a bad idea" was pretty good, too. u know "dookey" (as in Green Day album) was from dukkha? hahahaa!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       Standards Lost!   Reward – 100 Rupees 1 standard poodle 1 standard noodle 1 american standard toilet    my standards    your standards    our standards  standard standards aha! see also "views" we got poodles we got noodles we got licenses and news we got puppy dogs an kittens we got barks an we got mews what ain’t we got? we ain’t got views! make a distinction….     call it the "first distinction"…. Whoever makes the first distinction can claim to be God. Ummm….   Nevermind.

Knee-jerk reaction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       Standards Lost!   Reward – 100 Rupees 1 standard poodle 1 standard noodle 1 american standard toilet    my standards    your standards    our standards  standard standards aha! see also "views" we got poodles we got noodles we got licenses and news we got puppy dogs an kittens we got barks an we got mews what ain’t we got? we ain’t got views! make a distinction….     call it the "first distinction"…. Whoever makes the first distinction can claim to be God. Ummm….   Nevermind. — Sphere. ’scuse me – could we have anatta anicca dukkha back? either way….? "i am a bad idea" was pretty good, too. u know "dookey" (as in Green Day album) was from dukkha? hahahaa!

Later. — Sphere. "He reviled me; he injured me; he defeated me;  he deprived me."  In those who harbor such  grudges, hatred never ceases.      – Dhammapada I.3

Response:

1001 definitions of cheese

Question:

Please do not quote large articles for one line replies. thanks

Response:

Please do not quote large articles for one line replies. thanks

Plase read the tag before giving smart-ass answers. Thanks –//– I’m here to chew bubblegum and kick ass… and I’m fresh out of bubblegum Check out  http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/5250

Response:

Scientology: The cheese is an SP in Phoenix, AZ Queso – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all. Just found these definitions of cheese in a forum. Choose yours! Taoism: Cheese is. Catholicism: Cheesy armies are sinful! Protestantism: Keep that Cheese away from THIS gaming table! Zen: Cheese is not cheesy. Buddhism: To reach Nirvana, you must give up cheese. Capitalism: Cheesy armies SHOULD be expensive! If you don’t like it, don’t buy it! Communism: If one person has a cheesy army the entire common collective must have a cheesy army Fundamentalism: My cheese is better than yours! Nihilism: What does it matter if you’re cheesy? Marxism: Cheese is a tool of Games Workshop to get your money! Fight the oppressors! Voodoo: Let me stick some pins into those cheesy models. Solophism: mine is the only cheese. Hedonism: I love Slannesh cheese! Hindusim: I bet you were cheesy in your past life, too! Scientology: The easiest way to make a fortune is to write a cheesy Codex. Creationism: Adam and Eve tried to cheese God – and look what happened to them! Jehovah’s Witnesses: Hi, would you like to read this booklet that explains all about cheese? Lutheran: Would you like coffee with your cheese? Jewish: How come you always use your cheesy army against me? Darwinism: Cheese is good if it helps you win. It’s all about survival of the cheesiest. Wicca: Cheese is for the Magic Phase. Empiricism: Can you PROVE that this is cheesy? Stoicism: Okay, Fine, MORE Wolf Guard with Assault Cannons and Cyclones. Can we just start the game now, please? Shinto: Cheese is a force of the spirits of nature Church of the Subgenius: Cheese for Everybody! I’ll show you how, for just $29.95. Islam: If cheese exists, it is the will of Allah. Shi’ite Islam: Sure your army from the Great Satan is cheesy, but we’ll kill the hostages if you play with it. 7th Day Adventist: It’s only cheesy if you do it on Saturdays. Plutocracy: Hi, I’m Thomas Kirby, and this is Bryan Ansell. Elitism: Hey, those aren’t painted! You cheeser! Revisionism: It’s "Powergaming", not "Cheese." By the way, what are these "Squats" and "Centaurs" you keep talking about? Deism: GW just made the game – cheese came about on its own. Pragmatism: THUNK! [sound of hammer impacting on the head of a powergamer] Realism: Put that cheesy stuff away, or find someone else to play against. Stillmania: Cheese isn’t my fault! It’s those darned players, they NEVER cooperate! Rastafarianism: Cheese? Damn, now I’ve got the munchies. Mormonism: Hey, we found a new version of Warhammer out in the desert! And it’s not cheesy! Televangelism: Send us your tax-deductible donations so we can buy cheesy armies. Lovecraftian: Sure that Wolfguard Terminator army is cheesy. But can it stand up to Cthuhlu? Quakers: In the 41st millenium, there are no conscientious objectors. Hare Krishna: Please take this pamphlet on cheese and this flower. Creationism: And on the 6th day He created the Cheese. And lo, came forth the Bretonnians and Vampires and Forbidden ods, and God looked upon it and saw that it was Cheesy. Agnosticism: This might be cheese, but I’m not sure. Atheism: There’s no such thing as cheese. Fundamentalism: Our cheese is the only true cheese Ripleyism: I say we take off and nuke the cheesy army from orbit, it’s the only way to be sure. Nietzche: Cheese is dead. Twelve Step Program: "Hi, I’m Bob and I play a cheesy army." Cheeseaholics Anonymous: I’ve been trying to quit cheesing for years… Despotism: It ain’t cheesy unless I say so! Democracy: Let’s vote: Is this cheesy? Militarism: 2000 points ain’t enough – you haven’t seen REAL cheese until you try a 10,000 point game! Freudian: My father had a cheesy army and I was jealous Jungian: Cheese is just the Shadow trying to assert itself Rogerian: It doesn’t FEEL cheesy Sycophanticism: You play that cheesy army so beautifully, I wish I could use cheese as well as you. Cognitive-Behavioral: If you think it is cheesy, then it will be cheesy. You decide. Decartism: My army is cheese, therefore it is. Gestalt: Experience the cheese, what does it say to you? Logotherapy: All cheese has a meaning, you must find it from within. Political Correctness: He’s not cheesy, he’s fairness-challenged Apathy: I could make a cheesy army if I felt like it. Indecisiveness: My army isn’t really cheesy. Is it? I don’t think so. Well maybe it is. Paranoia: Everyone uses cheese against me! Lactophobia: Eeek! Cheese! Zoroastrian: Either you are for cheese or against cheese. Democrats: I have a wonderful new federal program to help us resolve the issue of cheese… Repulicans: Control of defining cheesy armies is the role of the states and private citizens… Anarchists: Ignore the rules. We can use whatever we want. Kenneth Starr: Did you make a video tape of your opponent’s cheese? Bill Clinton: Can I get chicks with this game? Defense Dept: You mean, they are _only_ $24.95 each?! Gimme 1000. IRS: How much did you pay for that cheese? And how much did you make? FBI: This week we have 2 new additions to the 10 Most Cheesiest… CIA: Our British contacts just faxed us this new army list and rules errata… BATF: Turn over your cheesy army or we set your new model house on fire. NRA: cheesy armies don’t win games, people win games. Chinese swimmers: It’s not cheese! Its just a traditional herbal dairy extract. Discordianism: Are you sure that you are a cheese, and not a cabbage in disguise or something? — electric walrus

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all. Just found these definitions of cheese in a forum. Choose yours! Taoism: Cheese is. Catholicism: Cheesy armies are sinful! Protestantism: Keep that Cheese away from THIS gaming table! Zen: Cheese is not cheesy. Buddhism: To reach Nirvana, you must give up cheese. Capitalism: Cheesy armies SHOULD be expensive! If you don’t like it, don’t buy it! Communism: If one person has a cheesy army the entire common collective must have a cheesy army Fundamentalism: My cheese is better than yours! Nihilism: What does it matter if you’re cheesy? Marxism: Cheese is a tool of Games Workshop to get your money! Fight the oppressors! Voodoo: Let me stick some pins into those cheesy models. Solophism: mine is the only cheese. Hedonism: I love Slannesh cheese! Hindusim: I bet you were cheesy in your past life, too! Scientology: The easiest way to make a fortune is to write a cheesy Codex. Creationism: Adam and Eve tried to cheese God – and look what happened to them! Jehovah’s Witnesses: Hi, would you like to read this booklet that explains all about cheese? Lutheran: Would you like coffee with your cheese? Jewish: How come you always use your cheesy army against me? Darwinism: Cheese is good if it helps you win. It’s all about survival of the cheesiest. Wicca: Cheese is for the Magic Phase. Empiricism: Can you PROVE that this is cheesy? Stoicism: Okay, Fine, MORE Wolf Guard with Assault Cannons and Cyclones. Can we just start the game now, please? Shinto: Cheese is a force of the spirits of nature Church of the Subgenius: Cheese for Everybody! I’ll show you how, for just $29.95. Islam: If cheese exists, it is the will of Allah. Shi’ite Islam: Sure your army from the Great Satan is cheesy, but we’ll kill the hostages if you play with it. 7th Day Adventist: It’s only cheesy if you do it on Saturdays. Plutocracy: Hi, I’m Thomas Kirby, and this is Bryan Ansell. Elitism: Hey, those aren’t painted! You cheeser! Revisionism: It’s "Powergaming", not "Cheese." By the way, what are these "Squats" and "Centaurs" you keep talking about? Deism: GW just made the game – cheese came about on its own. Pragmatism: THUNK! [sound of hammer impacting on the head of a powergamer] Realism: Put that cheesy stuff away, or find someone else to play against. Stillmania: Cheese isn’t my fault! It’s those darned players, they NEVER cooperate! Rastafarianism: Cheese? Damn, now I’ve got the munchies. Mormonism: Hey, we found a new version of Warhammer out in the desert! And it’s not cheesy! Televangelism: Send us your tax-deductible donations so we can buy cheesy armies. Lovecraftian: Sure that Wolfguard Terminator army is cheesy. But can it stand up to Cthuhlu? Quakers: In the 41st millenium, there are no conscientious objectors. Hare Krishna: Please take this pamphlet on cheese and this flower. Creationism: And on the 6th day He created the Cheese. And lo, came forth the Bretonnians and Vampires and Forbidden ods, and God looked upon it and saw that it was Cheesy. Agnosticism: This might be cheese, but I’m not sure. Atheism: There’s no such thing as cheese. Fundamentalism: Our cheese is the only true cheese Ripleyism: I say we take off and nuke the cheesy army from orbit, it’s the only way to be sure. Nietzche: Cheese is dead. Twelve Step Program: "Hi, I’m Bob and I play a cheesy army." Cheeseaholics Anonymous: I’ve been trying to quit cheesing for years… Despotism: It ain’t cheesy unless I say so! Democracy: Let’s vote: Is this cheesy? Militarism: 2000 points ain’t enough – you haven’t seen REAL cheese until you try a 10,000 point game! Freudian: My father had a cheesy army and I was jealous Jungian: Cheese is just the Shadow trying to assert itself Rogerian: It doesn’t FEEL cheesy Sycophanticism: You play that cheesy army so beautifully, I wish I could use cheese as well as you. Cognitive-Behavioral: If you think it is cheesy, then it will be cheesy. You decide. Decartism: My army is cheese, therefore it is. Gestalt: Experience the cheese, what does it say to you? Logotherapy: All cheese has a meaning, you must find it from within. Political Correctness: He’s not cheesy, he’s fairness-challenged Apathy: I could make a cheesy army if I felt like it. Indecisiveness: My army isn’t really cheesy. Is it? I don’t think so. Well maybe it is. Paranoia: Everyone uses cheese against me! Lactophobia: Eeek! Cheese! Zoroastrian: Either you are for cheese or against cheese. Democrats: I have a wonderful new federal program to help us resolve the issue of cheese… Repulicans: Control of defining cheesy armies is the role of the states and private citizens… Anarchists: Ignore the rules. We can use whatever we want. Kenneth Starr: Did you make a video tape of your opponent’s cheese? Bill Clinton: Can I get chicks with this game? Defense Dept: You mean, they are _only_ $24.95 each?! Gimme 1000. IRS: How much did you pay for that cheese? And how much did you make? FBI: This week we have 2 new additions to the 10 Most Cheesiest… CIA: Our British contacts just faxed us this new army list and rules errata… BATF: Turn over your cheesy army or we set your new model house on fire. NRA: cheesy armies don’t win games, people win games. Chinese swimmers: It’s not cheese! Its just a traditional herbal dairy extract.

Discordianism: Are you sure that you are a cheese, and not a cabbage in disguise or something? — electric walrus

Response:

Contrasting views about defending the self, but is it what the Buddha taught?

Question:

| |

| | | | | | Why the hate speech, Billy?  Hateful speech leads to acts of hatred | | |Why the smart-ass speach little mr. nobody? Cowards who hide behind |computers and fight good wars are worse than those who participate in |violence if you ask me. | |Why is that?  What harm does it cause? cuz its just not fair slows down cyberstalkering dharma defenders like that fuck’em and anyone else with their candy assed rules about how we have to behave to get their respect emptiness is a dead beer

Response:

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| | | | | | | | Why the hate speech, Billy?  Hateful speech leads to acts of hatred | | | Why the smart-ass speach little mr. nobody? Cowards who hide behind | computers and fight good wars are worse than those who participate in | violence if you ask me. | | Why is that?  What harm does it cause? | | |Nobody likes a smart-ass, haven’t you ever heard that? i’ve heard that ya know what? it’s totally dead assed wrong |You think you are being funny, but you are doing untold damage by pretending |to want peace while simultaneously provoking on-going cyber-fights. |If you don’t believe in vilolence why do you continue to taunt me?   cuz ure full of shit i guess I can’t |even take you serious like I do Pu. He is a monk – you aren’t. You should be |prepared to give service to your country or become a monk yourself – I mean |that. tell it to your mirror your problem you believe it you do it |It doesn’t take a genius to see that America is at war and we are stressed |out enough as it is without people from other countries badgering us about |what we are doing, trying to cast doubts upon us, and just being a general |pain in the ass. You don’t seem to be mature enough to fully understand what |is happening, but you should. | indeed (puff, puff) as seriosity increases humor exponentially decease |Nothing that is said here is going to make any difference anyway! |We are going to continue until we have Osama’s head on a stick, so what good |are you doing yourself or your "cause"?  Zilch, nada, zero. | samo samo heh emptiness is a dead beer

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why the hate speech, Billy?  Hateful speech leads to acts of hatred Why the smart-ass speach little mr. nobody? Cowards who hide behind computers and fight good wars are worse than those who participate in violence if you ask me.

Why is that?  What harm does it cause?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why the hate speech, Billy?  Hateful speech leads to acts of hatred Why the smart-ass speach little mr. nobody? Cowards who hide behind computers and fight good wars are worse than those who participate in violence if you ask me. Why is that?  What harm does it cause? Nobody likes a smart-ass, haven’t you ever heard that? You think you are being funny, but you are doing untold damage by pretending to want peace while simultaneously provoking on-going cyber-fights.

You mean like questioning the reasons for hatred and violence. If you don’t believe in vilolence why do you continue to taunt me?

Isn’t it the "me" that is the source of hatred and violence? We were discussing self defense and the nature of the self that is defended.  If the self is hatred itself, why would it be so vigorously defended? I can’t even take you serious like I do Pu. He is a monk – you aren’t. You should be prepared to give service to your country or become a monk yourself – I mean that.

What difference does it make if I’m a monk or not if I do not wish anyone harm? It doesn’t take a genius to see that America is at war and we are stressed out enough as it is without people from other countries badgering us about what we are doing, trying to cast doubts upon us, and just being a general pain in the ass. You don’t seem to be mature enough to fully understand what is happening, but you should.

I fully understand that there is a lot of misplaced blame going around because of what has happened.  However, if you really want to stop it from happening again, it’s wise to investigate why it happened and not become involved in the same kind to activities that led up to it, to perceive clearly the root causes and eliminate them.  If we see that hatred is a root cause, why not try to understand the nature of hate, to see how it comes about by naming and classifying people according to certain stereo-types and stories we make up about others. One can start with the logical fallicy of assuming that if there is one example of a "bad Moslem" that all Moslems are therefore bad.  The latter isn’t true.  But wars are fought over such generalities, stereo-typing whole nations under the general banner of the lable – the word, the idea. Nothing that is said here is going to make any difference anyway! We are going to continue until we have Osama’s head on a stick, so what good are you doing yourself or your "cause"?  Zilch, nada, zero.

By not participating in a lynch mob, I don’t suffer from the consequences of doing so.  To me that’s not a cause to be achieved it’s just a simple fact.  To harm another is to harm oneself so why cause harm?

Response:

To harm another is to harm oneself so why cause harm? BECAUSE THERE IS NO FUCKING SELF DIPSHIT!!!!!! (At least not one that can be conceptualized.)

So you’re saying is that because (in your opinion) there is no self (which as a Nichiren Buddhist I disagree with)  it’s ok to do harm to another.   There is no other interpretation of those words Billy! So is it also ok to kill another, to rape another, to steal and maim .. because at the end of the day there is no self, so it doesn’t matter what the hell you do? I fully confess I know next to nothing about Zen buddhism,  but to abstract yourself from your physical envionment to the point where the difference between good and evil disappears has got to be complete bullshit. John

Response:

What is the ultimate meaning of Buddhism?

To resolve the problems of human suffering by awakening people to the limitless potential and value of their own lives.  To bring about a positive transformation in the depths of life, transforming fear into courage, deluded impulses into wisdom, and egoism to compassion.

Response:

To harm another is to harm oneself so why cause harm? BECAUSE THERE IS NO FUCKING SELF DIPSHIT!!!!!! (At least not one that can be conceptualized.)

Then why wage war in self-defense?  Are you contradicting yourself?

Response:

|

| | | | | | Why the hate speech, Billy?  Hateful speech leads to acts of hatred | | |Why the smart-ass speach little mr. nobody? Cowards who hide behind |computers and fight good wars are worse than those who participate in |violence if you ask me. | ya rite "billy" what kinda name is "billy" anyway let’s see some id picuture id what i thot emptiness is a dead beer

Response:

You’re a lightweight, I’m not wasting anymore time with you. Cupcak handles my light work. Fuck, you’re not even an American….

Thank you. You’re right, I’m not an American, just a lighthearted human being. Happy fucking.  :) — "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and  you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." —                                                      - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind"                  - Dr. Ben Lau  11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger"                        - Buster  11-23-01

Response:

You’re a lightweight, I’m not wasting anymore time with you. Cupcak handles my light work. Fuck, you’re not even an American…. Thank you. You’re right, I’m not an American, just a lighthearted human being. Happy fucking.  :) More like a piece of shit I accidentally stepped on and can’t get rid of.

Why the hate speech, Billy?  Hateful speech leads to acts of hatred such as war as punnadhammo notes below: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and  you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." —                                                      - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind"                  - Dr. Ben Lau  11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger"                        - Buster  11-23-01

— "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and  you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." —                                                      - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind"                  - Dr. Ben Lau  11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger"                        - Buster  11-23-01

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And killing all things different in the name of "us" is just as evil as killing all things different in the name of Allah. — "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and  you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." —                                                      - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind"                  - Dr. Ben Lau  11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger"                - Buster  11-23-01 Yeah, why don’t you do just that. Billy Not wanting people on any side to be killed for any reason is not a product of hate and anger.  War is the product of hate and anger regardless of whether it is disguised as self defense or aggression. Peace cannot be brought about through violent means.  Hatred and anger will not achieve peace.  It may bring about a facade of temporary security but it would not be peace because there would always be the fear that security might be breached. Peace only comes when violent actions cease, and letting go of hatred and anger and resulting desire to cause harm is a good way to cease being violent. Can’t you see that your own war against violent actions is war itself? Is your form of "good war" any better than anyone else’s? It’s a common error to assume that peace is in conflict with violence, a view put forth by those who understand only violence when the conflict is really between those who are out to destroy each other, not between those bent on each other’s destruction and those who are not.  The present conflict is between radical extremists who think America should be defeated and radical extremists who think the Taliban should be defeated.  The conflict is like waves on the ocean, one side being the wave crests and the other side the wave troughs both furthering the hatred and animosity each side has for the other.  Peace is merely the absense of conflict between opposing sides, like a calm ocean without waves.  Peace isn’t in opposition to anything, it’s the absense of opposition.  But in the deluded dualistic mind set of the violent participants who only think in terms of opposits such as "if you are not with us, you are against us." as asserted by acting president Bush, it’s easy to rationalize those not advocating the destruction of the declared enemy of the day as being "against us".  There are really more options than merely two choices and one of them is the option to not encourage the continuation of the present conflict and to be willing to speak openly and freely about it.  Supression of the freedom to speak out about the injustices of both sides of the conflict is one of the reasons both sides resort to terrorist actions to try to exert some form of control upon the other through fear and intimidation. Still fighting the good war huh, dipshit?

No, it’s your war that you are defending. You are the reason Buddhism will never be accepted in this country. People say, these idiots will just allow any Nation to walk in here and take over the country without a struggle and that will never go.

Yes, just like the Dalai Lama left Tibet to the invading Chinese because peace of mind goes beyond attachment to homeland. You are hurting the Buddhist cause rather than helping.

Hurting the Buddhist cause?  I didn’t realize there was a cause – some ideal to be achieved like world domination or something.  We can leave causes like that to America, to eliminate the oppression of women in the entire Moslem world by force. Do you mean to tell me you wouldn’t fight off a man who was attacking your son?

I don’t speculate about it.  If it happens, I’ll act in a way to prevent it that causes the least possible harm, possibly talking the attacker out of his intentions, or self-sacrifice much like a killdeer that pretends to have a broken wing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tell me how you think the Samurai could kill while in the state of mushin. Mushin is empty-mind or the ultimate state of being/nonbeing. Surely you’re not suggesting that acting present Bush was in a state of mushin when he declared war against the Taliban – a group of about 200 radical clerics that can’t decide anything without unaminous consensus and can only agree that "the west" is against them.  Bush is just the military’s puppet figurehead, he’s not the puppet’s operator. The puppet’s operator is the tax paying American public and it is their responsibility whether they allow their government to sucker them into state of continued conflict and suffering. — Boy you’re really hung up on Bush aren’t you. I’m not into politics, call DT back and discuss that shit with him.

Nah, I just don’t believe all that propaganda. — "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and  you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." —                                                      - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind"                  - Dr. Ben Lau  11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger"                        - Buster  11-23-01

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And killing all things different in the name of "us" is just as evil as killing all things different in the name of Allah. — "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and  you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." —                                                      - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind"                  - Dr. Ben Lau  11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger"                - Buster  11-23-01 Yeah, why don’t you do just that. Billy Not wanting people on any side to be killed for any reason is not a product of hate and anger.  War is the product of hate and anger regardless of whether it is disguised as self defense or aggression. Peace cannot be brought about through violent means.  Hatred and anger will not achieve peace.  It may bring about a facade of temporary security but it would not be peace because there would always be the fear that security might be breached. Peace only comes when violent actions cease, and letting go of hatred and anger and resulting desire to cause harm is a good way to cease being violent. Can’t you see that your own war against violent actions is war itself? Is your form of "good war" any better than anyone else’s?

It’s a common error to assume that peace is in conflict with violence, a view put forth by those who understand only violence when the conflict is really between those who are out to destroy each other, not between those bent on each other’s destruction and those who are not.  The present conflict is between radical extremists who think America should be defeated and radical extremists who think the Taliban should be defeated.  The conflict is like waves on the ocean, one side being the wave crests and the other side the wave troughs both furthering the hatred and animosity each side has for the other.  Peace is merely the absense of conflict between opposing sides, like a calm ocean without waves.  Peace isn’t in opposition to anything, it’s the absense of opposition.  But in the deluded dualistic mind set of the violent participants who only think in terms of opposits such as "if you are not with us, you are against us." as asserted by acting president Bush, it’s easy to rationalize those not advocating the destruction of the declared enemy of the day as being "against us".  There are really more options than merely two choices and one of them is the option to not encourage the continuation of the present conflict and to be willing to speak openly and freely about it.  Supression of the freedom to speak out about the injustices of both sides of the conflict is one of the reasons both sides resort to terrorist actions to try to exert some form of control upon the other through fear and intimidation. Tell me how you think the Samurai could kill while in the state of mushin. Mushin is empty-mind or the ultimate state of being/nonbeing.

Surely you’re not suggesting that acting present Bush was in a state of mushin when he declared war against the Taliban – a group of about 200 radical clerics that can’t decide anything without unaminous consensus and can only agree that "the west" is against them.  Bush is just the military’s puppet figurehead, he’s not the puppet’s operator. The puppet’s operator is the tax paying American public and it is their responsibility whether they allow their government to sucker them into state of continued conflict and suffering. — "Rationalizations for all occasions"  - Dar

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Their attack was unprovoked and came without warning, whereas ours is in self-defense and they knew what was coming. All they had to do was hand the guy over. I have a hunch they were full of spit and vinegar after defeating Russia and figured they’d kick our ass the same way. Would have been horrible wouldn’t it? First they hijack our planes and kill thousands of innocent people then kick our asses when we retalitate. This is one we could not afford to lose under any condition. (sorry Pu; I know we come from different schools, but I had to say something in our defense.) The Buddha Dharma is all about self-disinvestment. Surely, one has to put oneself into the cultivation, to invest one’s time and effort into it, to walk the walk, but the time and effort are used precisely to remove one’s self-stuff invested by one, in life, in everything. The progress in the Buddhist path — and I mean Buddhism, not shamanism, Gnosticism, Hinduism or whatever — is in direct correlation to the degree to which one has removed the self-stuff invested by one, regardless of what the object and subject of that investment are. And that self-stuff invested by one is largely a veil of defence to protect oneself from oneself, though it also serves the (very secondary) purpose of defending oneself against others. Indications are the lightening of one’s mental load, the seeing of one’s tricks that one plays on oneself, seeing through them, seeing past them, so that they no longer fool one, etc. They point to the fact that one’s self is being shed. In the end, one has no self any longer, and especially any self to defend and protect, for or against. Tang Huyen Whatever his ambitions (and there is certainly no lack of ambition among most historical Buddhist and Zen priests), he brought to bear and highlighted the fundamental contribution and difference that Buddha brought to the religions of mankind – which is the shaking off of the shackles of religion: The toiling away over lifetimes to correct some supposed ‘unenlightened’ state. (Or as Christians would say, a state of original sin.) This contribution of Buddha was immediately quashed by his followers, who returned the religion of his name to its Hindu state very quickly after his death.  The Zen sect resurrected this primary contribution of Buddha at several key points in time, principally by Bodhidharma, Hui Neng, and Huang Po.  But it constantly gets buried by the "toil- away" advocates, who predominate all religions. Killing all things different in the name of Allah.   We are not so much doing this in the name of religion as for the survival of the State.   We can call them evil, bringing in religious concepts, but that is not necessary for those that are not religious because it is enough just to want to survive and know that if we don’t get them they have shown us that they will esculate and get us.   This is not about religion, including Buddhism, this is for survival so that Buddhism and all other religions have a voice. Survival in the name of "the state" is your religion, not the Buddhism that you claim to be the "us" as its spokesperson to be defended. And killing all things different in the name of "us" is just as evil as killing all things different in the name of Allah. — "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and  you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." —                                                      - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind"                  - Dr. Ben Lau  11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger"                - Buster  11-23-01 Yeah, why don’t you do just that. Billy

Not wanting people on any side to be killed for any reason is not a product of hate and anger.  War is the product of hate and anger regardless of whether it is disguised as self defense or aggression. Peace cannot be brought about through violent means.  Hatred and anger will not achieve peace.  It may bring about a facade of temporary security but it would not be peace because there would always be the fear that security might be breached. Peace only comes when violent actions cease, and letting go of hatred and anger and resulting desire to cause harm is a good way to cease being violent.

Response:

The answer is simple:  Samurai were not practicing Buddhists.  According to the Enlightened One, a practicing Buddhist is one who practices the five precepts, of which not-killing is the first.  The attempt to accurately represent the Buddha’s teachings is only a war in the way that to describe a mountain is a mountain itself. Many people think that the Buddha did not have a fully functioning brain, and that he therefore confused anger with murder or war. In fact, he did not.  He recognized  killing as killing, and anger as anger. He did not mistake anger for killing.  Though an arahant is free from both anger and killing, he understood that one would have to give up killing long before he would be able to give up anger. 2 points regarding the Samurai committing murder while allegedly in the state of mushin: 1)  Perhaps the samurai were not actually in the state of mushin.  Religion has often been used as an excuse to justify murder, and it seems most probable that the samurai were doing this. 2) Mushin was a concept developed probably about a thousand years after the Buddha’s death. And yes, teaching others the path of non-violence is better than war. — May all beings, in or out of the womb, be well, happy and peaceful. http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2yz6t/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Their attack was unprovoked and came without warning, whereas ours is in self-defense and they knew what was coming. All they had to do was hand the guy over. I have a hunch they were full of spit and vinegar after defeating Russia and figured they’d kick our ass the same way. Would have been horrible wouldn’t it? First they hijack our planes and kill thousands of innocent people then kick our asses when we retalitate. This is one we could not afford to lose under any condition. (sorry Pu; I know we come from different schools, but I had to say something in our defense.) The Buddha Dharma is all about self-disinvestment. Surely, one has to put oneself into the cultivation, to invest one’s time and effort into it, to walk the walk, but the time and effort are used precisely to remove one’s self-stuff invested by one, in life, in everything. The progress in the Buddhist path — and I mean Buddhism, not shamanism, Gnosticism, Hinduism or whatever — is in direct correlation to the degree to which one has removed the self-stuff invested by one, regardless of what the object and subject of that investment are. And that self-stuff invested by one is largely a veil of defence to protect oneself from oneself, though it also serves the (very secondary) purpose of defending oneself against others. Indications are the lightening of one’s mental load, the seeing of one’s tricks that one plays on oneself, seeing through them, seeing past them, so that they no longer fool one, etc. They point to the fact that one’s self is being shed. In the end, one has no self any longer, and especially any self to defend and protect, for or against. Tang Huyen Whatever his ambitions (and there is certainly no lack of ambition among most historical Buddhist and Zen priests), he brought to bear and highlighted the fundamental contribution and difference that Buddha brought to the religions of mankind – which is the shaking off of the shackles of religion: The toiling away over lifetimes to correct some supposed ‘unenlightened’ state. (Or as Christians would say, a state of original sin.) This contribution of Buddha was immediately quashed by his followers, who returned the religion of his name to its Hindu state very quickly after his death.  The Zen sect resurrected this primary contribution of Buddha at several key points in time, principally by Bodhidharma, Hui Neng, and Huang Po.  But it constantly gets buried by the "toil- away" advocates, who predominate all religions. Killing all things different in the name of Allah.   We are not so much doing this in the name of religion as for the survival of the State.   We can call them evil, bringing in religious concepts, but that is not necessary for those that are not religious because it is enough just to want to survive and know that if we don’t get them they have shown us that they will esculate and get us.   This is not about religion, including Buddhism, this is for survival so that Buddhism and all other religions have a voice. Survival in the name of "the state" is your religion, not the Buddhism that you claim to be the "us" as its spokesperson to be defended. And killing all things different in the name of "us" is just as evil as killing all things different in the name of Allah. — "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and  you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." —                                                      - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind"                  - Dr. Ben Lau  11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger"                - Buster  11-23-01 Yeah, why don’t you do just that. Billy Not wanting people on any side to be killed for any reason is not a product of hate and anger.  War is the product of hate and anger regardless of whether it is disguised as self defense or aggression. Peace cannot be brought about through violent means.  Hatred and anger will not achieve peace.  It may bring about a facade of temporary security but it would not be peace because there would always be the fear that security might be breached. Peace only comes when violent actions cease, and letting go of hatred and anger and resulting desire to cause harm is a good way to cease being violent. Can’t you see that your own war against violent actions is war itself? Is your form of "good war" any better than anyone else’s? Tell me how you think the Samurai could kill while in the state of mushin. Mushin is empty-mind or the ultimate state of being/nonbeing.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Their attack was unprovoked and came without warning, whereas ours is in self-defense and they knew what was coming. All they had to do was hand the guy over. I have a hunch they were full of spit and vinegar after defeating Russia and figured they’d kick our ass the same way. Would have been horrible wouldn’t it? First they hijack our planes and kill thousands of innocent people then kick our asses when we retalitate. This is one we could not afford to lose under any condition. (sorry Pu; I know we come from different schools, but I had to say something in our defense.) The Buddha Dharma is all about self-disinvestment. Surely, one has to put oneself into the cultivation, to invest one’s time and effort into it, to walk the walk, but the time and effort are used precisely to remove one’s self-stuff invested by one, in life, in everything. The progress in the Buddhist path — and I mean Buddhism, not shamanism, Gnosticism, Hinduism or whatever — is in direct correlation to the degree to which one has removed the self-stuff invested by one, regardless of what the object and subject of that investment are. And that self-stuff invested by one is largely a veil of defence to protect oneself from oneself, though it also serves the (very secondary) purpose of defending oneself against others. Indications are the lightening of one’s mental load, the seeing of one’s tricks that one plays on oneself, seeing through them, seeing past them, so that they no longer fool one, etc. They point to the fact that one’s self is being shed. In the end, one has no self any longer, and especially any self to defend and protect, for or against. Tang Huyen Whatever his ambitions (and there is certainly no lack of ambition among most historical Buddhist and Zen priests), he brought to bear and highlighted the fundamental contribution and difference that Buddha brought to the religions of mankind – which is the shaking off of the shackles of religion: The toiling away over lifetimes to correct some supposed ‘unenlightened’ state. (Or as Christians would say, a state of original sin.) This contribution of Buddha was immediately quashed by his followers, who returned the religion of his name to its Hindu state very quickly after his death.  The Zen sect resurrected this primary contribution of Buddha at several key points in time, principally by Bodhidharma, Hui Neng, and Huang Po.  But it constantly gets buried by the "toil- away" advocates, who predominate all religions. Killing all things different in the name of Allah.   We are not so much doing this in the name of religion as for the survival of the State.   We can call them evil, bringing in religious concepts, but that is not necessary for those that are not religious because it is enough just to want to survive and know that if we don’t get them they have shown us that they will esculate and get us.   This is not about

religion, including Buddhism, this is for survival so that Buddhism and all other religions have a voice.

Survival in the name of "the state" is your religion, not the Buddhism that you claim to be the "us" as its spokesperson to be defended. And killing all things different in the name of "us" is just as evil as killing all things different in the name of Allah. — "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and  you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." —                                                      - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind"                  - Dr. Ben Lau  11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger"                        - Buster  11-23-01

Response:

Riddle………

Question:

gra_…@webwombat.remove.com.au wrote: > I knew people who liked to let their kids watch it because it always > had a message for them. In fact I wuld say my interest in Buddhism > probably started with Monkey.

I never got a message out of it though, and I don’t think my parents ever watched it they just walked past and saw people attacking each other a couple of times Beckie — Don’t worry.  You won’t say anything stupid.  It’ll be fine.                                                         -Neil Gaiman

Response:

On 19 Oct 2001 09:59:19 -0700, maddman…@yahoo.com (maddman) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->step…@nomail.msu.edu wrote in message <news:9qmv8h$1uoh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>… >> Eric Pepke <epe…@acm.org> wrote: >> : gra_…@webwombat.REMOVE.com.au wrote in message <news:0fgqstc74n40pm2l3kp37q7e3gs5oegui2@4ax.com>… >> :> Q: Why did the libertarian cross the road? >> :> >> :> A: None of your f***ing business ! >> : Nice one!  I hadn’t heard it before.  I love meta-jokes.   >> I’ve always liked >> "How many Zen Buddhists does it take to change a light bulb?" >> "Three.  One to change the light bulb." >> Stephen >What did the Buddhists say to the hot dog vendor? >Make me one with everything.

Why couldn’t the Buddhist vacuum under his couch? Because he had no attachments Gra-gra the brown nose Oh that was SO funny! You’re the best! You’re absolutely right! You’re fantastic, you know that? HAHAHA! That was the funniest thing I’ve ever read!

Response:

On 20 Oct 2001 01:32:09 GMT, bec…@starmail.com wrote: >gra_…@webwombat.remove.com.au wrote: >> I knew people who liked to let their kids watch it because it always >> had a message for them. In fact I wuld say my interest in Buddhism >> probably started with Monkey. >I never got a message out of it though, and I don’t think my parents ever >watched it they just walked past and saw people attacking each other a >couple of times

Yeah, but it was a bit of acrobatics really. Not much real violence. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Beckie

Response:

maddman <maddman…@yahoo.com> wrote: > What did the Buddhists say to the hot dog vendor? > Make me one with everything.

LoL! : )

Response:

Q: Why did the libertarian cross the road? A: None of your f***ing business ! "I do stuff my hands"…….Gra-gra

Response:

gra_…@webwombat.REMOVE.com.au wrote in message <news:0fgqstc74n40pm2l3kp37q7e3gs5oegui2@4ax.com>… > Q: Why did the libertarian cross the road? > A: None of your f***ing business ! > "I do stuff my hands"…….Gra-gra

Q: Why did the Republican cross the road? A: someone dropped a quarter over there Q:Why did the Democrat cross the road A:To get to the hooker

Response:

gra_…@webwombat.REMOVE.com.au wrote in message <news:0fgqstc74n40pm2l3kp37q7e3gs5oegui2@4ax.com>… > Q: Why did the libertarian cross the road? > A: None of your f***ing business !

Nice one!  I hadn’t heard it before.  I love meta-jokes.  Here are some old ones: Q: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? A: That’s not funny! Q: How many dadaists does it take to change a light bulb? A: Fish! Q: How long is a Chinese science-fiction writer? A: Yes, he is. (OK, the last one’s not really meta, but it’s still a bit weird like that.)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -epe…@acm.org (Eric Pepke) wrote in message <news:ef37f531.0110171323.48b2408a@posting.google.com>… > gra_…@webwombat.REMOVE.com.au wrote in message <news:0fgqstc74n40pm2l3kp37q7e3gs5oegui2@4ax.com>… > > Q: Why did the libertarian cross the road? > > A: None of your f***ing business ! > Nice one!  I hadn’t heard it before.  I love meta-jokes.  Here are some > old ones: > Q: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? > A: That’s not funny! > Q: How many dadaists does it take to change a light bulb? > A: Fish! > Q: How long is a Chinese science-fiction writer? > A: Yes, he is. > (OK, the last one’s not really meta, but it’s still a bit weird like that.)

How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a lightbulb? None.  They just declare darkness the new standard. Which brings me to my favorite computer joke. There’s a big computer conference.  Three of the attendees are in the bathroom.  One wearing a Microsoft badge finishes his business and goes to the sink.  He washes his hands and uses four paper towels to meticulously dry every square inch of his hands.  He looks at the others and says "At Microsoft, we are trained to be very thoughough. The second one wearing a Sun badge goes to the sink and washes his hands.  He drys every square inch of his hands just as carefully with only one towel.  "At Sun, we are trained to be very thoughough and efficient" The third man is wearing a Tux t shirt.  He walks past the sink out the door.  As he’s leaving, ho looks over his shoulder and says "Linux programmers don’t piss all over thier hands."

Response:

"Eric Pepke" <epe…@acm.org> wrote in message

news:ef37f531.0110171323.48b2408a@posting.google.com… > gra_…@webwombat.REMOVE.com.au wrote in message

<news:0fgqstc74n40pm2l3kp37q7e3gs5oegui2@4ax.com>… > Q: How long is a Chinese science-fiction writer? > A: Yes, he is.

I remember my sixth grade teacher telling us this joke, or something similar.  It went something like, "How long is a Chinese man.  How short is his brother."  A real laugh riot, no doubt. Incidentally, it also reminds me of this great children’s book about these Chinese brothers who could do these amazing things like drink the ocean dry and other such feats.  Anybody know anything about this?  I think there was a final brother who couldn’t do any amazingly huge thing, but could do X, which was just as good in its own way.

Response:

Nevermind.  I found the book.  Thank god for Amazon.  I searched their children’s section for "Chinese" and found The Five Chinese Brothers http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0698113578/qid=1003381354/sr=1… sr_1_2_4/102-1014331-2537724 Some more searching revealed this one, which, I think, is the version I read: Seven Chinese Brothers http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0590420577/ref=pd_sim_books/10… 31-2537724 Great book. "themoodykid" <themoody…@yahoo.ca> wrote in message

news:titz7.281647$j65.73882939@news4.rdc1.on.home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Eric Pepke" <epe…@acm.org> wrote in message > news:ef37f531.0110171323.48b2408a@posting.google.com… > > gra_…@webwombat.REMOVE.com.au wrote in message > <news:0fgqstc74n40pm2l3kp37q7e3gs5oegui2@4ax.com>… > > Q: How long is a Chinese science-fiction writer? > > A: Yes, he is. > I remember my sixth grade teacher telling us this joke, or something > similar.  It went something like, "How long is a Chinese man.  How short > is his brother."  A real laugh riot, no doubt. > Incidentally, it also reminds me of this great children’s book about > these Chinese brothers who could do these amazing things like > drink the ocean dry and other such feats.  Anybody know anything > about this?  I think there was a final brother who couldn’t do any > amazingly huge thing, but could do X, which was just as good in > its own way.

Response:

On 17 Oct 2001 14:23:44 -0700, epe…@acm.org (Eric Pepke) wrote: >gra_…@webwombat.REMOVE.com.au wrote in message <news:0fgqstc74n40pm2l3kp37q7e3gs5oegui2@4ax.com>… >> Q: Why did the libertarian cross the road? >> A: None of your f***ing business ! >Nice one!  I hadn’t heard it before.  

Thank you. I made it up all by myself. Here’s another one, I think I may have said it before; Q: How many social workers does it take to changhe a light bulb? A: One, but the light bulb has to *want* to change. >I love meta-jokes.  Here are some >old ones: >Q: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? >A: That’s not funny! >Q: How many dadaists does it take to change a light bulb? >A: Fish! >Q: How long is a Chinese science-fiction writer? >A: Yes, he is. >(OK, the last one’s not really meta, but it’s still a bit weird like that.)

Gra-gra the brown nose Oh that was SO funny! You’re the best! You’re absolutely right! You’re fantastic, you know that? HAHAHA! That was the funniest thing I’ve ever read!

Response:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 04:56:57 GMT, "themoodykid" <themoody…@yahoo.ca> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Eric Pepke" <epe…@acm.org> wrote in message >news:ef37f531.0110171323.48b2408a@posting.google.com… >> gra_…@webwombat.REMOVE.com.au wrote in message ><news:0fgqstc74n40pm2l3kp37q7e3gs5oegui2@4ax.com>… >> Q: How long is a Chinese science-fiction writer? >> A: Yes, he is. >I remember my sixth grade teacher telling us this joke, or something >similar.  It went something like, "How long is a Chinese man.  How short >is his brother."  A real laugh riot, no doubt. >Incidentally, it also reminds me of this great children’s book about >these Chinese brothers who could do these amazing things like >drink the ocean dry and other such feats.  Anybody know anything >about this?  I think there was a final brother who couldn’t do any >amazingly huge thing, but could do X, which was just as good in >its own way.

That’s "Monkey" ! (I think) There’s a book on Penguin Classics, called "Monkey", by Wu Cheng-En. Translated by Arthur Waley, 1942. It’s brilliant. There was a tv series as well, made in Hong Kong or Taiwan. It was also brilliant and very funny, sometimes unintentionally. The show was overdubbed in english, but with chinese accents! Gra-gra "There is no way to happiness,      Happiness is the way."               Thich Nhat Hanh

Response:

Eric Pepke <epe…@acm.org> wrote: : gra_…@webwombat.REMOVE.com.au wrote in message <news:0fgqstc74n40pm2l3kp37q7e3gs5oegui2@4ax.com>…

:> Q: Why did the libertarian cross the road? :> :> A: None of your f***ing business ! : Nice one!  I hadn’t heard it before.  I love meta-jokes.   I’ve always liked "How many Zen Buddhists does it take to change a light bulb?" "Three.  One to change the light bulb." Stephen

Response:

gra_…@webwombat.remove.com.au wrote: > It’s brilliant. There was a tv series as well, made in Hong Kong or > Taiwan. It was also brilliant and very funny, sometimes > unintentionally. The show was overdubbed in english, but with chinese > accents!

I loved that show! It was hilarious, but I wasn’t supposed to watch it cause it was too violent, supposedly astro boy was too. They replayed it fairly recently I think but it was on too early on a saturday morning for me Beckie — Don’t worry.  You won’t say anything stupid.  It’ll be fine.                                                         -Neil Gaiman

Response:

On 18 Oct 2001 23:22:30 GMT, bec…@starmail.com wrote: >gra_…@webwombat.remove.com.au wrote: >> It’s brilliant. There was a tv series as well, made in Hong Kong or >> Taiwan. It was also brilliant and very funny, sometimes >> unintentionally. The show was overdubbed in english, but with chinese >> accents! >I loved that show! It was hilarious, but I wasn’t supposed to watch it >cause it was too violent, supposedly astro boy was too. >They replayed it fairly recently I think but it was on too early on a >saturday morning for me

I knew people who liked to let their kids watch it because it always had a message for them. In fact I wuld say my interest in Buddhism probably started with Monkey. >Beckie

Gra-gra the brown nose Oh that was SO funny! You’re the best! You’re absolutely right! You’re fantastic, you know that? HAHAHA! That was the funniest thing I’ve ever read!

Response:

"themoodykid" <themoody…@yahoo.ca> wrote in message <news:titz7.281647$j65.73882939@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>… > It went something like, "How long is a Chinese man.  How short > is his brother."

The thing, though, is that there really is a Chinese science fiction writer named How Long.  He’s quite good. > Incidentally, it also reminds me of this great children’s book about > these Chinese brothers who could do these amazing things like > drink the ocean dry and other such feats.

I remember a book about the five Chinese brothers.  The first one can swallow the sea and does it for a kid, but the kid stays out too long and he has to puke it back.  The remaining brothers use their talents to avoid being executed.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -step…@nomail.msu.edu wrote in message <news:9qmv8h$1uoh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>… > Eric Pepke <epe…@acm.org> wrote: > : gra_…@webwombat.REMOVE.com.au wrote in message <news:0fgqstc74n40pm2l3kp37q7e3gs5oegui2@4ax.com>… > :> Q: Why did the libertarian cross the road? > :> > :> A: None of your f***ing business ! > : Nice one!  I hadn’t heard it before.  I love meta-jokes.   > I’ve always liked > "How many Zen Buddhists does it take to change a light bulb?" > "Three.  One to change the light bulb." > Stephen

What did the Buddhists say to the hot dog vendor? Make me one with everything.

Response:

epe…@acm.org (Eric Pepke) wrote in news:ef37f531.0110190819.3e461581@posting.google.com: > I remember a book about the five Chinese brothers.  The first one can > swallow the sea and does it for a kid, but the kid stays out too long > and he has to puke it back.  The remaining brothers use their talents > to avoid being executed.

I read this book aloud as part of a play we did in kindergarten. — switch the x and m to email

Response: