Contrasting views about defending the self, but is it what the Buddha taught?
Question:
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| | | | | | Why the hate speech, Billy? Hateful speech leads to acts of hatred | | |Why the smart-ass speach little mr. nobody? Cowards who hide behind |computers and fight good wars are worse than those who participate in |violence if you ask me. | |Why is that? What harm does it cause? cuz its just not fair slows down cyberstalkering dharma defenders like that fuck’em and anyone else with their candy assed rules about how we have to behave to get their respect emptiness is a dead beer
Response:
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| | | | | | | | Why the hate speech, Billy? Hateful speech leads to acts of hatred | | | Why the smart-ass speach little mr. nobody? Cowards who hide behind | computers and fight good wars are worse than those who participate in | violence if you ask me. | | Why is that? What harm does it cause? | | |Nobody likes a smart-ass, haven’t you ever heard that? i’ve heard that ya know what? it’s totally dead assed wrong |You think you are being funny, but you are doing untold damage by pretending |to want peace while simultaneously provoking on-going cyber-fights. |If you don’t believe in vilolence why do you continue to taunt me? cuz ure full of shit i guess I can’t |even take you serious like I do Pu. He is a monk – you aren’t. You should be |prepared to give service to your country or become a monk yourself – I mean |that. tell it to your mirror your problem you believe it you do it |It doesn’t take a genius to see that America is at war and we are stressed |out enough as it is without people from other countries badgering us about |what we are doing, trying to cast doubts upon us, and just being a general |pain in the ass. You don’t seem to be mature enough to fully understand what |is happening, but you should. | indeed (puff, puff) as seriosity increases humor exponentially decease |Nothing that is said here is going to make any difference anyway! |We are going to continue until we have Osama’s head on a stick, so what good |are you doing yourself or your "cause"? Zilch, nada, zero. | samo samo heh emptiness is a dead beer
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why the hate speech, Billy? Hateful speech leads to acts of hatred Why the smart-ass speach little mr. nobody? Cowards who hide behind computers and fight good wars are worse than those who participate in violence if you ask me.
Why is that? What harm does it cause?
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why the hate speech, Billy? Hateful speech leads to acts of hatred Why the smart-ass speach little mr. nobody? Cowards who hide behind computers and fight good wars are worse than those who participate in violence if you ask me. Why is that? What harm does it cause? Nobody likes a smart-ass, haven’t you ever heard that? You think you are being funny, but you are doing untold damage by pretending to want peace while simultaneously provoking on-going cyber-fights.
You mean like questioning the reasons for hatred and violence. If you don’t believe in vilolence why do you continue to taunt me?
Isn’t it the "me" that is the source of hatred and violence? We were discussing self defense and the nature of the self that is defended. If the self is hatred itself, why would it be so vigorously defended? I can’t even take you serious like I do Pu. He is a monk – you aren’t. You should be prepared to give service to your country or become a monk yourself – I mean that.
What difference does it make if I’m a monk or not if I do not wish anyone harm? It doesn’t take a genius to see that America is at war and we are stressed out enough as it is without people from other countries badgering us about what we are doing, trying to cast doubts upon us, and just being a general pain in the ass. You don’t seem to be mature enough to fully understand what is happening, but you should.
I fully understand that there is a lot of misplaced blame going around because of what has happened. However, if you really want to stop it from happening again, it’s wise to investigate why it happened and not become involved in the same kind to activities that led up to it, to perceive clearly the root causes and eliminate them. If we see that hatred is a root cause, why not try to understand the nature of hate, to see how it comes about by naming and classifying people according to certain stereo-types and stories we make up about others. One can start with the logical fallicy of assuming that if there is one example of a "bad Moslem" that all Moslems are therefore bad. The latter isn’t true. But wars are fought over such generalities, stereo-typing whole nations under the general banner of the lable – the word, the idea. Nothing that is said here is going to make any difference anyway! We are going to continue until we have Osama’s head on a stick, so what good are you doing yourself or your "cause"? Zilch, nada, zero.
By not participating in a lynch mob, I don’t suffer from the consequences of doing so. To me that’s not a cause to be achieved it’s just a simple fact. To harm another is to harm oneself so why cause harm?
Response:
To harm another is to harm oneself so why cause harm? BECAUSE THERE IS NO FUCKING SELF DIPSHIT!!!!!! (At least not one that can be conceptualized.)
So you’re saying is that because (in your opinion) there is no self (which as a Nichiren Buddhist I disagree with) it’s ok to do harm to another. There is no other interpretation of those words Billy! So is it also ok to kill another, to rape another, to steal and maim .. because at the end of the day there is no self, so it doesn’t matter what the hell you do? I fully confess I know next to nothing about Zen buddhism, but to abstract yourself from your physical envionment to the point where the difference between good and evil disappears has got to be complete bullshit. John
Response:
What is the ultimate meaning of Buddhism?
To resolve the problems of human suffering by awakening people to the limitless potential and value of their own lives. To bring about a positive transformation in the depths of life, transforming fear into courage, deluded impulses into wisdom, and egoism to compassion.
Response:
To harm another is to harm oneself so why cause harm? BECAUSE THERE IS NO FUCKING SELF DIPSHIT!!!!!! (At least not one that can be conceptualized.)
Then why wage war in self-defense? Are you contradicting yourself?
Response:
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| | | | | | Why the hate speech, Billy? Hateful speech leads to acts of hatred | | |Why the smart-ass speach little mr. nobody? Cowards who hide behind |computers and fight good wars are worse than those who participate in |violence if you ask me. | ya rite "billy" what kinda name is "billy" anyway let’s see some id picuture id what i thot emptiness is a dead beer
Response:
You’re a lightweight, I’m not wasting anymore time with you. Cupcak handles my light work. Fuck, you’re not even an American….
Thank you. You’re right, I’m not an American, just a lighthearted human being. Happy fucking. :) — "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." — - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind" - Dr. Ben Lau 11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger" - Buster 11-23-01
Response:
You’re a lightweight, I’m not wasting anymore time with you. Cupcak handles my light work. Fuck, you’re not even an American…. Thank you. You’re right, I’m not an American, just a lighthearted human being. Happy fucking. :) More like a piece of shit I accidentally stepped on and can’t get rid of.
Why the hate speech, Billy? Hateful speech leads to acts of hatred such as war as punnadhammo notes below: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." — - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind" - Dr. Ben Lau 11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger" - Buster 11-23-01
— "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." — - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind" - Dr. Ben Lau 11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger" - Buster 11-23-01
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And killing all things different in the name of "us" is just as evil as killing all things different in the name of Allah. — "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." — - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind" - Dr. Ben Lau 11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger" - Buster 11-23-01 Yeah, why don’t you do just that. Billy Not wanting people on any side to be killed for any reason is not a product of hate and anger. War is the product of hate and anger regardless of whether it is disguised as self defense or aggression. Peace cannot be brought about through violent means. Hatred and anger will not achieve peace. It may bring about a facade of temporary security but it would not be peace because there would always be the fear that security might be breached. Peace only comes when violent actions cease, and letting go of hatred and anger and resulting desire to cause harm is a good way to cease being violent. Can’t you see that your own war against violent actions is war itself? Is your form of "good war" any better than anyone else’s? It’s a common error to assume that peace is in conflict with violence, a view put forth by those who understand only violence when the conflict is really between those who are out to destroy each other, not between those bent on each other’s destruction and those who are not. The present conflict is between radical extremists who think America should be defeated and radical extremists who think the Taliban should be defeated. The conflict is like waves on the ocean, one side being the wave crests and the other side the wave troughs both furthering the hatred and animosity each side has for the other. Peace is merely the absense of conflict between opposing sides, like a calm ocean without waves. Peace isn’t in opposition to anything, it’s the absense of opposition. But in the deluded dualistic mind set of the violent participants who only think in terms of opposits such as "if you are not with us, you are against us." as asserted by acting president Bush, it’s easy to rationalize those not advocating the destruction of the declared enemy of the day as being "against us". There are really more options than merely two choices and one of them is the option to not encourage the continuation of the present conflict and to be willing to speak openly and freely about it. Supression of the freedom to speak out about the injustices of both sides of the conflict is one of the reasons both sides resort to terrorist actions to try to exert some form of control upon the other through fear and intimidation. Still fighting the good war huh, dipshit?
No, it’s your war that you are defending. You are the reason Buddhism will never be accepted in this country. People say, these idiots will just allow any Nation to walk in here and take over the country without a struggle and that will never go.
Yes, just like the Dalai Lama left Tibet to the invading Chinese because peace of mind goes beyond attachment to homeland. You are hurting the Buddhist cause rather than helping.
Hurting the Buddhist cause? I didn’t realize there was a cause – some ideal to be achieved like world domination or something. We can leave causes like that to America, to eliminate the oppression of women in the entire Moslem world by force. Do you mean to tell me you wouldn’t fight off a man who was attacking your son?
I don’t speculate about it. If it happens, I’ll act in a way to prevent it that causes the least possible harm, possibly talking the attacker out of his intentions, or self-sacrifice much like a killdeer that pretends to have a broken wing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tell me how you think the Samurai could kill while in the state of mushin. Mushin is empty-mind or the ultimate state of being/nonbeing. Surely you’re not suggesting that acting present Bush was in a state of mushin when he declared war against the Taliban – a group of about 200 radical clerics that can’t decide anything without unaminous consensus and can only agree that "the west" is against them. Bush is just the military’s puppet figurehead, he’s not the puppet’s operator. The puppet’s operator is the tax paying American public and it is their responsibility whether they allow their government to sucker them into state of continued conflict and suffering. — Boy you’re really hung up on Bush aren’t you. I’m not into politics, call DT back and discuss that shit with him.
Nah, I just don’t believe all that propaganda. — "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." — - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind" - Dr. Ben Lau 11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger" - Buster 11-23-01
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And killing all things different in the name of "us" is just as evil as killing all things different in the name of Allah. — "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." — - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind" - Dr. Ben Lau 11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger" - Buster 11-23-01 Yeah, why don’t you do just that. Billy Not wanting people on any side to be killed for any reason is not a product of hate and anger. War is the product of hate and anger regardless of whether it is disguised as self defense or aggression. Peace cannot be brought about through violent means. Hatred and anger will not achieve peace. It may bring about a facade of temporary security but it would not be peace because there would always be the fear that security might be breached. Peace only comes when violent actions cease, and letting go of hatred and anger and resulting desire to cause harm is a good way to cease being violent. Can’t you see that your own war against violent actions is war itself? Is your form of "good war" any better than anyone else’s?
It’s a common error to assume that peace is in conflict with violence, a view put forth by those who understand only violence when the conflict is really between those who are out to destroy each other, not between those bent on each other’s destruction and those who are not. The present conflict is between radical extremists who think America should be defeated and radical extremists who think the Taliban should be defeated. The conflict is like waves on the ocean, one side being the wave crests and the other side the wave troughs both furthering the hatred and animosity each side has for the other. Peace is merely the absense of conflict between opposing sides, like a calm ocean without waves. Peace isn’t in opposition to anything, it’s the absense of opposition. But in the deluded dualistic mind set of the violent participants who only think in terms of opposits such as "if you are not with us, you are against us." as asserted by acting president Bush, it’s easy to rationalize those not advocating the destruction of the declared enemy of the day as being "against us". There are really more options than merely two choices and one of them is the option to not encourage the continuation of the present conflict and to be willing to speak openly and freely about it. Supression of the freedom to speak out about the injustices of both sides of the conflict is one of the reasons both sides resort to terrorist actions to try to exert some form of control upon the other through fear and intimidation. Tell me how you think the Samurai could kill while in the state of mushin. Mushin is empty-mind or the ultimate state of being/nonbeing.
Surely you’re not suggesting that acting present Bush was in a state of mushin when he declared war against the Taliban – a group of about 200 radical clerics that can’t decide anything without unaminous consensus and can only agree that "the west" is against them. Bush is just the military’s puppet figurehead, he’s not the puppet’s operator. The puppet’s operator is the tax paying American public and it is their responsibility whether they allow their government to sucker them into state of continued conflict and suffering. — "Rationalizations for all occasions" - Dar
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Their attack was unprovoked and came without warning, whereas ours is in self-defense and they knew what was coming. All they had to do was hand the guy over. I have a hunch they were full of spit and vinegar after defeating Russia and figured they’d kick our ass the same way. Would have been horrible wouldn’t it? First they hijack our planes and kill thousands of innocent people then kick our asses when we retalitate. This is one we could not afford to lose under any condition. (sorry Pu; I know we come from different schools, but I had to say something in our defense.) The Buddha Dharma is all about self-disinvestment. Surely, one has to put oneself into the cultivation, to invest one’s time and effort into it, to walk the walk, but the time and effort are used precisely to remove one’s self-stuff invested by one, in life, in everything. The progress in the Buddhist path — and I mean Buddhism, not shamanism, Gnosticism, Hinduism or whatever — is in direct correlation to the degree to which one has removed the self-stuff invested by one, regardless of what the object and subject of that investment are. And that self-stuff invested by one is largely a veil of defence to protect oneself from oneself, though it also serves the (very secondary) purpose of defending oneself against others. Indications are the lightening of one’s mental load, the seeing of one’s tricks that one plays on oneself, seeing through them, seeing past them, so that they no longer fool one, etc. They point to the fact that one’s self is being shed. In the end, one has no self any longer, and especially any self to defend and protect, for or against. Tang Huyen Whatever his ambitions (and there is certainly no lack of ambition among most historical Buddhist and Zen priests), he brought to bear and highlighted the fundamental contribution and difference that Buddha brought to the religions of mankind – which is the shaking off of the shackles of religion: The toiling away over lifetimes to correct some supposed ‘unenlightened’ state. (Or as Christians would say, a state of original sin.) This contribution of Buddha was immediately quashed by his followers, who returned the religion of his name to its Hindu state very quickly after his death. The Zen sect resurrected this primary contribution of Buddha at several key points in time, principally by Bodhidharma, Hui Neng, and Huang Po. But it constantly gets buried by the "toil- away" advocates, who predominate all religions. Killing all things different in the name of Allah. We are not so much doing this in the name of religion as for the survival of the State. We can call them evil, bringing in religious concepts, but that is not necessary for those that are not religious because it is enough just to want to survive and know that if we don’t get them they have shown us that they will esculate and get us. This is not about religion, including Buddhism, this is for survival so that Buddhism and all other religions have a voice. Survival in the name of "the state" is your religion, not the Buddhism that you claim to be the "us" as its spokesperson to be defended. And killing all things different in the name of "us" is just as evil as killing all things different in the name of Allah. — "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." — - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind" - Dr. Ben Lau 11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger" - Buster 11-23-01 Yeah, why don’t you do just that. Billy
Not wanting people on any side to be killed for any reason is not a product of hate and anger. War is the product of hate and anger regardless of whether it is disguised as self defense or aggression. Peace cannot be brought about through violent means. Hatred and anger will not achieve peace. It may bring about a facade of temporary security but it would not be peace because there would always be the fear that security might be breached. Peace only comes when violent actions cease, and letting go of hatred and anger and resulting desire to cause harm is a good way to cease being violent.
Response:
The answer is simple: Samurai were not practicing Buddhists. According to the Enlightened One, a practicing Buddhist is one who practices the five precepts, of which not-killing is the first. The attempt to accurately represent the Buddha’s teachings is only a war in the way that to describe a mountain is a mountain itself. Many people think that the Buddha did not have a fully functioning brain, and that he therefore confused anger with murder or war. In fact, he did not. He recognized killing as killing, and anger as anger. He did not mistake anger for killing. Though an arahant is free from both anger and killing, he understood that one would have to give up killing long before he would be able to give up anger. 2 points regarding the Samurai committing murder while allegedly in the state of mushin: 1) Perhaps the samurai were not actually in the state of mushin. Religion has often been used as an excuse to justify murder, and it seems most probable that the samurai were doing this. 2) Mushin was a concept developed probably about a thousand years after the Buddha’s death. And yes, teaching others the path of non-violence is better than war. — May all beings, in or out of the womb, be well, happy and peaceful. http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2yz6t/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Their attack was unprovoked and came without warning, whereas ours is in self-defense and they knew what was coming. All they had to do was hand the guy over. I have a hunch they were full of spit and vinegar after defeating Russia and figured they’d kick our ass the same way. Would have been horrible wouldn’t it? First they hijack our planes and kill thousands of innocent people then kick our asses when we retalitate. This is one we could not afford to lose under any condition. (sorry Pu; I know we come from different schools, but I had to say something in our defense.) The Buddha Dharma is all about self-disinvestment. Surely, one has to put oneself into the cultivation, to invest one’s time and effort into it, to walk the walk, but the time and effort are used precisely to remove one’s self-stuff invested by one, in life, in everything. The progress in the Buddhist path — and I mean Buddhism, not shamanism, Gnosticism, Hinduism or whatever — is in direct correlation to the degree to which one has removed the self-stuff invested by one, regardless of what the object and subject of that investment are. And that self-stuff invested by one is largely a veil of defence to protect oneself from oneself, though it also serves the (very secondary) purpose of defending oneself against others. Indications are the lightening of one’s mental load, the seeing of one’s tricks that one plays on oneself, seeing through them, seeing past them, so that they no longer fool one, etc. They point to the fact that one’s self is being shed. In the end, one has no self any longer, and especially any self to defend and protect, for or against. Tang Huyen Whatever his ambitions (and there is certainly no lack of ambition among most historical Buddhist and Zen priests), he brought to bear and highlighted the fundamental contribution and difference that Buddha brought to the religions of mankind – which is the shaking off of the shackles of religion: The toiling away over lifetimes to correct some supposed ‘unenlightened’ state. (Or as Christians would say, a state of original sin.) This contribution of Buddha was immediately quashed by his followers, who returned the religion of his name to its Hindu state very quickly after his death. The Zen sect resurrected this primary contribution of Buddha at several key points in time, principally by Bodhidharma, Hui Neng, and Huang Po. But it constantly gets buried by the "toil- away" advocates, who predominate all religions. Killing all things different in the name of Allah. We are not so much doing this in the name of religion as for the survival of the State. We can call them evil, bringing in religious concepts, but that is not necessary for those that are not religious because it is enough just to want to survive and know that if we don’t get them they have shown us that they will esculate and get us. This is not about religion, including Buddhism, this is for survival so that Buddhism and all other religions have a voice. Survival in the name of "the state" is your religion, not the Buddhism that you claim to be the "us" as its spokesperson to be defended. And killing all things different in the name of "us" is just as evil as killing all things different in the name of Allah. — "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." — - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind" - Dr. Ben Lau 11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger" - Buster 11-23-01 Yeah, why don’t you do just that. Billy Not wanting people on any side to be killed for any reason is not a product of hate and anger. War is the product of hate and anger regardless of whether it is disguised as self defense or aggression. Peace cannot be brought about through violent means. Hatred and anger will not achieve peace. It may bring about a facade of temporary security but it would not be peace because there would always be the fear that security might be breached. Peace only comes when violent actions cease, and letting go of hatred and anger and resulting desire to cause harm is a good way to cease being violent. Can’t you see that your own war against violent actions is war itself? Is your form of "good war" any better than anyone else’s? Tell me how you think the Samurai could kill while in the state of mushin. Mushin is empty-mind or the ultimate state of being/nonbeing.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Their attack was unprovoked and came without warning, whereas ours is in self-defense and they knew what was coming. All they had to do was hand the guy over. I have a hunch they were full of spit and vinegar after defeating Russia and figured they’d kick our ass the same way. Would have been horrible wouldn’t it? First they hijack our planes and kill thousands of innocent people then kick our asses when we retalitate. This is one we could not afford to lose under any condition. (sorry Pu; I know we come from different schools, but I had to say something in our defense.) The Buddha Dharma is all about self-disinvestment. Surely, one has to put oneself into the cultivation, to invest one’s time and effort into it, to walk the walk, but the time and effort are used precisely to remove one’s self-stuff invested by one, in life, in everything. The progress in the Buddhist path — and I mean Buddhism, not shamanism, Gnosticism, Hinduism or whatever — is in direct correlation to the degree to which one has removed the self-stuff invested by one, regardless of what the object and subject of that investment are. And that self-stuff invested by one is largely a veil of defence to protect oneself from oneself, though it also serves the (very secondary) purpose of defending oneself against others. Indications are the lightening of one’s mental load, the seeing of one’s tricks that one plays on oneself, seeing through them, seeing past them, so that they no longer fool one, etc. They point to the fact that one’s self is being shed. In the end, one has no self any longer, and especially any self to defend and protect, for or against. Tang Huyen Whatever his ambitions (and there is certainly no lack of ambition among most historical Buddhist and Zen priests), he brought to bear and highlighted the fundamental contribution and difference that Buddha brought to the religions of mankind – which is the shaking off of the shackles of religion: The toiling away over lifetimes to correct some supposed ‘unenlightened’ state. (Or as Christians would say, a state of original sin.) This contribution of Buddha was immediately quashed by his followers, who returned the religion of his name to its Hindu state very quickly after his death. The Zen sect resurrected this primary contribution of Buddha at several key points in time, principally by Bodhidharma, Hui Neng, and Huang Po. But it constantly gets buried by the "toil- away" advocates, who predominate all religions. Killing all things different in the name of Allah. We are not so much doing this in the name of religion as for the survival of the State. We can call them evil, bringing in religious concepts, but that is not necessary for those that are not religious because it is enough just to want to survive and know that if we don’t get them they have shown us that they will esculate and get us. This is not about
religion, including Buddhism, this is for survival so that Buddhism and all other religions have a voice.
Survival in the name of "the state" is your religion, not the Buddhism that you claim to be the "us" as its spokesperson to be defended. And killing all things different in the name of "us" is just as evil as killing all things different in the name of Allah. — "War is murder, theft and pillage. It is the product of greed, hatred and delusion and you should be ashamed of promoting defiled states of mind on a Buddhist newsgroup." — - punnadhammo 11/19/2001 "Harm no one or no living being of any kind" - Dr. Ben Lau 11-23-01 — "give it a rest dude" "u shud try buddism to let go of yer hate n anger" - Buster 11-23-01
