The final secret

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ilya the Bat wrote: > The simplistic worldviews are easy to the mind, but wrong to the being. > The human body has 3 trillion cells, arranged in intricate patterns, > and simple-minded worldviews – whether of Protestant nature or of > "realist" nature – the likes of which have been inexplicably and > overbearingly equated with ethics and honor and good citizenship are > simply dishonest and untrue. There may be a simple cause, or a simple > outcome, at a higher level. But before its nature can be truly > glimpsed, it is incumbent to see the complexity of the manifestation, > or else one’s view be dishonest – and, as a result, barbaric and > malicious. > Every belief system that ever existed, from religious to secular, was > based on the concept of what is man. It appears that many of them were > part-right; that they were describing part of human beingness, and > their solutions were right to the extent that they were appropriate for > the person at hand at the time of life of that person. This is as much > true for capitalism as it is true for science, as it is true for > psychology, as it is true for religion and spirituality and other > paths. > The Buddhist approach of achieving enlightenment is achieving oneness > with the law of cause and effect, which is seen to be the true reality > beyond all mental and sensory fabrication. "The enlightened individual > is one with the law of cause and effect." From which position the > enlightened individual, from what I can see, is apparently driven by > the law of cause and effect to do deeds of compassion and good for > one’s fellow human beings, with the ultimate goal of getting them to > the same place. It appears likewise that the enlightened individual (as > well as an individual on path to enlightenment) is put into situations > where he has to rectify wrong done either in this or in previous > lifetime; to clear himself of karmic entanglements; and to free himself > for ultimate liberation, at which point he apparently has the choice > either to continue existing and go back to help other people or to > simply disappear into the light. The deeds done wrong at a higher state > of enlightenment carry more weight than the deeds done wrong at lower > states, and the constant presence of mind and spirit is requisite in > order not only to maintain that state of being, but likewise to do what > is in the interests of humanity – the interests that Buddhism believes > to be liberation and final merger. The joy and compassion and > ever-present energy that is associated with state of Buddhist > illumination are functions of man’s presence in the Buddhist truth – > the true cause-and-effect; the all-as-is – which is seen to be man’s > true and intended state, and which is as such experienced as a place of > joy that hath no bounds – joy that is as such absolute as being > absolute fulfilment of that which is man’s true Buddha nature. > It occurs to me that many other paths that seek enlightenment of one or > another kind, based on one or another concept of what is man’s truth > and man’s actual nature, offer paths that are of similar character. The > scientific path, that claims man’s true nature as being of intellect > whose purpose is acquisition of knowledge through scientific method in > one or another discipline, seeks to identify the mind with the canon of > knowledge that exists in the discipline and then use his own mind to > build on that canon. The mind is disciplined into the mindset of > scientific method; which mindset is trained to exclude all modes of > cognition that are inconsistent with scientific method and that must > present all new evidence in terms of evidence that already exists in > the field being studied. This is a different path toward what is seen > to be enlightenment, based on a different concept of what is man’s true > nature and leading to significantly different results. The joy of > discovery and the quest to continue – what is believed to be man’s true > nature as a being that seeks to apprehend the world through empirical > study – motivate man through many plodding hours of analysis and > examination; new ideas come up, build on each other, are discarded, and > then occasionally turn over the entire body of knowledge with an > explanation that completely uproots the previous way of thinking and > replaces it with something not thought of before. The joy seen here is > likewise seen to be a reflection of man’s true nature as the scientist > and discoverer; with the result being of course not only his own joy > but addition to man’s quest for knowledge as such. > In ideology-driven societies such as Communism, enlightenment was seen > to be identification with the ideology; which was supposed to produce > the man that Communism saw as being man’s true nature: That of service > to the proletariat and progress of mankind. This likewise was > advertised as man’s greatest joy based on the belief of what Communism > believed to be man: A part in a historical process leading inevitably > to a global Communist order in which all selflessly serve the common > good and are indiscriminately given what they need. Militaristic > ideologies, that believe man’s true nature to be that of warrior, > advertise man’s greatest joy as that of winning in battle – and that of > course works for some, but with consequences for others. In capitalism, > man’s true nature is seen to be that of consumer and of producer, whose > natural good is material acquisition and of doing whatever work or > business transaction is necessary to produce the goods necessary to > trade in the market for the good that one seeks. The joy advertised > here is that of having possessions; which is believed to be man’s > "rational self-interest" – and the exchange of which goods in the > market through mechanism of competition and improved efficiency is > claimed to lead to improvement in the "rational self-interest" of all. > This economic concept of man – as a being seeking to maximize utility – > is of course in direct contradiction to the concept of man as a > spiritual being whose goal is spiritual enlightenment; as a rational > being whose goal is knowledge; as a part of a historically inevitable > process; as a warrior; or anything similar. > The psychological concept of man depends upon the psychology. We have > everything from existential "self-actualization" to social-animal stuff > to various psychoanalytic traditions to the neo-Calvinism of Scott Peck > and Hillmann. The idea of what gives highest joy becomes a function of > what is seen to be the true nature of what is man. And of course in all > these cases, it plays better to people who operate on the level > described by the psychologist than they do on others – in the same way > as is the case for capitalism, science, Communism and other ideologies. > The concept of what is man drives the ideology. The fact of human > difference means that each of these is more appropriate for some than > for others; and each of these paths work better for one person than > they do for the next. > The Christian concept of man is that of embodied spirit invented for > service to God; and the highest joy is seen as that of surrender to > Holy Spirit and serving God and man. The highest function is seen as > being faith; which faith can be in either the right things or wrong > things, but is in all cases the truth of human being. Based on which > finding it has been possible for people to do all kinds of spinoff > traditions, from metaphysics to mysticism to New Age spirituality, in > which the person is placing his faith in one or another thing and is by > that faith brought to it and into it completely. > Finally there is the romantic path, that sees man’s nature as that of > the lover and finds man’s highest joy in passionate love and manifests > in inspiration and passion and emotional sharing and artistic output. > This path unites man’s spiritual nature – as being of spirit that lives > by intuition and inspiration; with man’s natural nature – as sexual > being; with man’s emotional nature – as being who seeks to share with > and be close to another person; with man’s rational nature – as being > that seeks to fathom the world through experience. And what I find, > having pursued that path, is that e.e. cummings’ "The final secret will > still be man" should be replaced with this: "The final secret is > woman." Given all the aforementioned concepts of what is man – all of > which are undeniably part of what is man, and all of which are more > natural to some men than to others and more natural to the same man at > different times in his life – we are left at the consummation of > spiritual, philosophical and passionate quest with this: A being that > combines all of these things, at the same, and in which being all these > are integrated and made manifest in their full resplendor. A being who > combines spirit, civilization and nature at once and makes of all of > them the highest fruition and highest embodiment; who is intricate and > delicate and warm and delightful; who is a masterpiece herself – a > masterpiece combining all forces that make human beingness – and out of > the wisdom that is embodied within her creates magnificent paintings, > photographs and calligraphy and reaches out to others seeking to show > them the paradise that she knows and that she is. > So my solution? IN FLORE VERITAS. In flower, truth. The logic of > consummation and continuity. The truth I found? Julia. > I hope you find the truth that works for you. > Ilya Shambat.

Those who speak don’t know. Those who know don’t speak. The Tao

Response:

Tower of Pisa.  My middle name is Eileen.  Ar Ar Ar. "marasu" <mar…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:1130513629.255353.309920@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> "PisaCake" <sherr…@adelphia.net> wrote… > Used2be wrote: >> pisa crumb cake? > leaning layers of pisa cake?

Response:

"Used2be" <used…@nowhere.com> wrote don’t you guys remember the rabbi "pisa cake" skits from saturday night live??? oh, dat’s a gonna be a pisa cake.  <g> and then he did a little bit in the kids movie Casper (i LOVED that movie) where he was trying to convince the people that he could remove the ghosts from the haunted mansion and he says, "oh dat’s a gonna be a pisa cake…a pisa crumb cake." i love that guy…

Response:

Try to get your judgement and expectation out of the view screen you are looking at Ilya.  The defense structure creates all that happens to you for your own entertainment.  The defense structure seeks to heal you, your childhood, your family, your future, your nation and the world … the defense structure made you who you are today … a survivor … working recovery. So put love into where all the judgement and expectation you have inside and see it as all good … the defense structure is all good and what it does is good.  This is why you love who you love and get in to the shit that you do with relationships … its all about love. Not the hate, the fear, the judgement expectation that makes criticism and shame. Love dont do those things. Good luck in changing the emotional bathwater and keeping the baby. Its a simple process that hurts like hell. sumbuddie on da watchtower in article 1130512204.156395.300…@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, Ilya the Bat at ibshambat2…@hotmail.com wrote on 10/28/05 7:10 AM: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The simplistic worldviews are easy to the mind, but wrong to the being.

Response:

"hell_is_others" <tmozzare…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1130512675.489875.181980@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com… > Ilya the Bat wrote: > a whole lot of pretentious, bloviating bullshit that is as incoherent as > ever. > Those who speak don’t know. > Those who know don’t speak. > The Tao

See how easy that was?

Response:

hell_is_others wrote: > Those who speak don’t know. > Those who know don’t speak.

So what are you waiting for? Become a tree, and know!

Response:

"PisaCake" <sherr…@adelphia.net> wrote…

pisa crumb cake???

Response:

> "PisaCake" <sherr…@adelphia.net> wrote… Used2be wrote: > pisa crumb cake?

leaning layers of pisa cake?

Response:

"Used2be" <used…@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:Jtr8f.25142$Bf7.2604@tornado.texas.rr.com… > "PisaCake" <sherr…@adelphia.net> wrote… > pisa crumb cake???

pisa mangia cake

Response:

The simplistic worldviews are easy to the mind, but wrong to the being. The human body has 3 trillion cells, arranged in intricate patterns, and simple-minded worldviews – whether of Protestant nature or of "realist" nature – the likes of which have been inexplicably and overbearingly equated with ethics and honor and good citizenship are simply dishonest and untrue. There may be a simple cause, or a simple outcome, at a higher level. But before its nature can be truly glimpsed, it is incumbent to see the complexity of the manifestation, or else one’s view be dishonest – and, as a result, barbaric and malicious. Every belief system that ever existed, from religious to secular, was based on the concept of what is man. It appears that many of them were part-right; that they were describing part of human beingness, and their solutions were right to the extent that they were appropriate for the person at hand at the time of life of that person. This is as much true for capitalism as it is true for science, as it is true for psychology, as it is true for religion and spirituality and other paths. The Buddhist approach of achieving enlightenment is achieving oneness with the law of cause and effect, which is seen to be the true reality beyond all mental and sensory fabrication. "The enlightened individual is one with the law of cause and effect." From which position the enlightened individual, from what I can see, is apparently driven by the law of cause and effect to do deeds of compassion and good for one’s fellow human beings, with the ultimate goal of getting them to the same place. It appears likewise that the enlightened individual (as well as an individual on path to enlightenment) is put into situations where he has to rectify wrong done either in this or in previous lifetime; to clear himself of karmic entanglements; and to free himself for ultimate liberation, at which point he apparently has the choice either to continue existing and go back to help other people or to simply disappear into the light. The deeds done wrong at a higher state of enlightenment carry more weight than the deeds done wrong at lower states, and the constant presence of mind and spirit is requisite in order not only to maintain that state of being, but likewise to do what is in the interests of humanity – the interests that Buddhism believes to be liberation and final merger. The joy and compassion and ever-present energy that is associated with state of Buddhist illumination are functions of man’s presence in the Buddhist truth – the true cause-and-effect; the all-as-is – which is seen to be man’s true and intended state, and which is as such experienced as a place of joy that hath no bounds – joy that is as such absolute as being absolute fulfilment of that which is man’s true Buddha nature. It occurs to me that many other paths that seek enlightenment of one or another kind, based on one or another concept of what is man’s truth and man’s actual nature, offer paths that are of similar character. The scientific path, that claims man’s true nature as being of intellect whose purpose is acquisition of knowledge through scientific method in one or another discipline, seeks to identify the mind with the canon of knowledge that exists in the discipline and then use his own mind to build on that canon. The mind is disciplined into the mindset of scientific method; which mindset is trained to exclude all modes of cognition that are inconsistent with scientific method and that must present all new evidence in terms of evidence that already exists in the field being studied. This is a different path toward what is seen to be enlightenment, based on a different concept of what is man’s true nature and leading to significantly different results. The joy of discovery and the quest to continue – what is believed to be man’s true nature as a being that seeks to apprehend the world through empirical study – motivate man through many plodding hours of analysis and examination; new ideas come up, build on each other, are discarded, and then occasionally turn over the entire body of knowledge with an explanation that completely uproots the previous way of thinking and replaces it with something not thought of before. The joy seen here is likewise seen to be a reflection of man’s true nature as the scientist and discoverer; with the result being of course not only his own joy but addition to man’s quest for knowledge as such. In ideology-driven societies such as Communism, enlightenment was seen to be identification with the ideology; which was supposed to produce the man that Communism saw as being man’s true nature: That of service to the proletariat and progress of mankind. This likewise was advertised as man’s greatest joy based on the belief of what Communism believed to be man: A part in a historical process leading inevitably to a global Communist order in which all selflessly serve the common good and are indiscriminately given what they need. Militaristic ideologies, that believe man’s true nature to be that of warrior, advertise man’s greatest joy as that of winning in battle – and that of course works for some, but with consequences for others. In capitalism, man’s true nature is seen to be that of consumer and of producer, whose natural good is material acquisition and of doing whatever work or business transaction is necessary to produce the goods necessary to trade in the market for the good that one seeks. The joy advertised here is that of having possessions; which is believed to be man’s "rational self-interest" – and the exchange of which goods in the market through mechanism of competition and improved efficiency is claimed to lead to improvement in the "rational self-interest" of all. This economic concept of man – as a being seeking to maximize utility – is of course in direct contradiction to the concept of man as a spiritual being whose goal is spiritual enlightenment; as a rational being whose goal is knowledge; as a part of a historically inevitable process; as a warrior; or anything similar. The psychological concept of man depends upon the psychology. We have everything from existential "self-actualization" to social-animal stuff to various psychoanalytic traditions to the neo-Calvinism of Scott Peck and Hillmann. The idea of what gives highest joy becomes a function of what is seen to be the true nature of what is man. And of course in all these cases, it plays better to people who operate on the level described by the psychologist than they do on others – in the same way as is the case for capitalism, science, Communism and other ideologies. The concept of what is man drives the ideology. The fact of human difference means that each of these is more appropriate for some than for others; and each of these paths work better for one person than they do for the next. The Christian concept of man is that of embodied spirit invented for service to God; and the highest joy is seen as that of surrender to Holy Spirit and serving God and man. The highest function is seen as being faith; which faith can be in either the right things or wrong things, but is in all cases the truth of human being. Based on which finding it has been possible for people to do all kinds of spinoff traditions, from metaphysics to mysticism to New Age spirituality, in which the person is placing his faith in one or another thing and is by that faith brought to it and into it completely. Finally there is the romantic path, that sees man’s nature as that of the lover and finds man’s highest joy in passionate love and manifests in inspiration and passion and emotional sharing and artistic output. This path unites man’s spiritual nature – as being of spirit that lives by intuition and inspiration; with man’s natural nature – as sexual being; with man’s emotional nature – as being who seeks to share with and be close to another person; with man’s rational nature – as being that seeks to fathom the world through experience. And what I find, having pursued that path, is that e.e. cummings’ "The final secret will still be man" should be replaced with this: "The final secret is woman." Given all the aforementioned concepts of what is man – all of which are undeniably part of what is man, and all of which are more natural to some men than to others and more natural to the same man at different times in his life – we are left at the consummation of spiritual, philosophical and passionate quest with this: A being that combines all of these things, at the same, and in which being all these are integrated and made manifest in their full resplendor. A being who combines spirit, civilization and nature at once and makes of all of them the highest fruition and highest embodiment; who is intricate and delicate and warm and delightful; who is a masterpiece herself – a masterpiece combining all forces that make human beingness – and out of the wisdom that is embodied within her creates magnificent paintings, photographs and calligraphy and reaches out to others seeking to show them the paradise that she knows and that she is. So my solution? IN FLORE VERITAS. In flower, truth. The logic of consummation and continuity. The truth I found? Julia. I hope you find the truth that works for you. Ilya Shambat.

Response:

The final secret

Question:

"Used2be" <used…@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:Jtr8f.25142$Bf7.2604@tornado.texas.rr.com… > "PisaCake" <sherr…@adelphia.net> wrote… > pisa crumb cake???

pisa mangia cake

Response:

Tower of Pisa.  My middle name is Eileen.  Ar Ar Ar. "marasu" <mar…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:1130513629.255353.309920@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> "PisaCake" <sherr…@adelphia.net> wrote… > Used2be wrote: >> pisa crumb cake? > leaning layers of pisa cake?

Response:

"Used2be" <used…@nowhere.com> wrote don’t you guys remember the rabbi "pisa cake" skits from saturday night live??? oh, dat’s a gonna be a pisa cake.  <g> and then he did a little bit in the kids movie Casper (i LOVED that movie) where he was trying to convince the people that he could remove the ghosts from the haunted mansion and he says, "oh dat’s a gonna be a pisa cake…a pisa crumb cake." i love that guy…

Response:

Try to get your judgement and expectation out of the view screen you are looking at Ilya.  The defense structure creates all that happens to you for your own entertainment.  The defense structure seeks to heal you, your childhood, your family, your future, your nation and the world … the defense structure made you who you are today … a survivor … working recovery. So put love into where all the judgement and expectation you have inside and see it as all good … the defense structure is all good and what it does is good.  This is why you love who you love and get in to the shit that you do with relationships … its all about love. Not the hate, the fear, the judgement expectation that makes criticism and shame. Love dont do those things. Good luck in changing the emotional bathwater and keeping the baby. Its a simple process that hurts like hell. sumbuddie on da watchtower in article 1130512204.156395.300…@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, Ilya the Bat at ibshambat2…@hotmail.com wrote on 10/28/05 7:10 AM: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The simplistic worldviews are easy to the mind, but wrong to the being.

Response:

"hell_is_others" <tmozzare…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1130512675.489875.181980@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com… > Ilya the Bat wrote: > a whole lot of pretentious, bloviating bullshit that is as incoherent as > ever. > Those who speak don’t know. > Those who know don’t speak. > The Tao

See how easy that was?

Response:

hell_is_others wrote: > Those who speak don’t know. > Those who know don’t speak.

So what are you waiting for? Become a tree, and know!

Response:

> "PisaCake" <sherr…@adelphia.net> wrote… Used2be wrote: > pisa crumb cake?

leaning layers of pisa cake?

Response:

"PisaCake" <sherr…@adelphia.net> wrote…

pisa crumb cake???

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ilya the Bat wrote: > The simplistic worldviews are easy to the mind, but wrong to the being. > The human body has 3 trillion cells, arranged in intricate patterns, > and simple-minded worldviews – whether of Protestant nature or of > "realist" nature – the likes of which have been inexplicably and > overbearingly equated with ethics and honor and good citizenship are > simply dishonest and untrue. There may be a simple cause, or a simple > outcome, at a higher level. But before its nature can be truly > glimpsed, it is incumbent to see the complexity of the manifestation, > or else one’s view be dishonest – and, as a result, barbaric and > malicious. > Every belief system that ever existed, from religious to secular, was > based on the concept of what is man. It appears that many of them were > part-right; that they were describing part of human beingness, and > their solutions were right to the extent that they were appropriate for > the person at hand at the time of life of that person. This is as much > true for capitalism as it is true for science, as it is true for > psychology, as it is true for religion and spirituality and other > paths. > The Buddhist approach of achieving enlightenment is achieving oneness > with the law of cause and effect, which is seen to be the true reality > beyond all mental and sensory fabrication. "The enlightened individual > is one with the law of cause and effect." From which position the > enlightened individual, from what I can see, is apparently driven by > the law of cause and effect to do deeds of compassion and good for > one’s fellow human beings, with the ultimate goal of getting them to > the same place. It appears likewise that the enlightened individual (as > well as an individual on path to enlightenment) is put into situations > where he has to rectify wrong done either in this or in previous > lifetime; to clear himself of karmic entanglements; and to free himself > for ultimate liberation, at which point he apparently has the choice > either to continue existing and go back to help other people or to > simply disappear into the light. The deeds done wrong at a higher state > of enlightenment carry more weight than the deeds done wrong at lower > states, and the constant presence of mind and spirit is requisite in > order not only to maintain that state of being, but likewise to do what > is in the interests of humanity – the interests that Buddhism believes > to be liberation and final merger. The joy and compassion and > ever-present energy that is associated with state of Buddhist > illumination are functions of man’s presence in the Buddhist truth – > the true cause-and-effect; the all-as-is – which is seen to be man’s > true and intended state, and which is as such experienced as a place of > joy that hath no bounds – joy that is as such absolute as being > absolute fulfilment of that which is man’s true Buddha nature. > It occurs to me that many other paths that seek enlightenment of one or > another kind, based on one or another concept of what is man’s truth > and man’s actual nature, offer paths that are of similar character. The > scientific path, that claims man’s true nature as being of intellect > whose purpose is acquisition of knowledge through scientific method in > one or another discipline, seeks to identify the mind with the canon of > knowledge that exists in the discipline and then use his own mind to > build on that canon. The mind is disciplined into the mindset of > scientific method; which mindset is trained to exclude all modes of > cognition that are inconsistent with scientific method and that must > present all new evidence in terms of evidence that already exists in > the field being studied. This is a different path toward what is seen > to be enlightenment, based on a different concept of what is man’s true > nature and leading to significantly different results. The joy of > discovery and the quest to continue – what is believed to be man’s true > nature as a being that seeks to apprehend the world through empirical > study – motivate man through many plodding hours of analysis and > examination; new ideas come up, build on each other, are discarded, and > then occasionally turn over the entire body of knowledge with an > explanation that completely uproots the previous way of thinking and > replaces it with something not thought of before. The joy seen here is > likewise seen to be a reflection of man’s true nature as the scientist > and discoverer; with the result being of course not only his own joy > but addition to man’s quest for knowledge as such. > In ideology-driven societies such as Communism, enlightenment was seen > to be identification with the ideology; which was supposed to produce > the man that Communism saw as being man’s true nature: That of service > to the proletariat and progress of mankind. This likewise was > advertised as man’s greatest joy based on the belief of what Communism > believed to be man: A part in a historical process leading inevitably > to a global Communist order in which all selflessly serve the common > good and are indiscriminately given what they need. Militaristic > ideologies, that believe man’s true nature to be that of warrior, > advertise man’s greatest joy as that of winning in battle – and that of > course works for some, but with consequences for others. In capitalism, > man’s true nature is seen to be that of consumer and of producer, whose > natural good is material acquisition and of doing whatever work or > business transaction is necessary to produce the goods necessary to > trade in the market for the good that one seeks. The joy advertised > here is that of having possessions; which is believed to be man’s > "rational self-interest" – and the exchange of which goods in the > market through mechanism of competition and improved efficiency is > claimed to lead to improvement in the "rational self-interest" of all. > This economic concept of man – as a being seeking to maximize utility – > is of course in direct contradiction to the concept of man as a > spiritual being whose goal is spiritual enlightenment; as a rational > being whose goal is knowledge; as a part of a historically inevitable > process; as a warrior; or anything similar. > The psychological concept of man depends upon the psychology. We have > everything from existential "self-actualization" to social-animal stuff > to various psychoanalytic traditions to the neo-Calvinism of Scott Peck > and Hillmann. The idea of what gives highest joy becomes a function of > what is seen to be the true nature of what is man. And of course in all > these cases, it plays better to people who operate on the level > described by the psychologist than they do on others – in the same way > as is the case for capitalism, science, Communism and other ideologies. > The concept of what is man drives the ideology. The fact of human > difference means that each of these is more appropriate for some than > for others; and each of these paths work better for one person than > they do for the next. > The Christian concept of man is that of embodied spirit invented for > service to God; and the highest joy is seen as that of surrender to > Holy Spirit and serving God and man. The highest function is seen as > being faith; which faith can be in either the right things or wrong > things, but is in all cases the truth of human being. Based on which > finding it has been possible for people to do all kinds of spinoff > traditions, from metaphysics to mysticism to New Age spirituality, in > which the person is placing his faith in one or another thing and is by > that faith brought to it and into it completely. > Finally there is the romantic path, that sees man’s nature as that of > the lover and finds man’s highest joy in passionate love and manifests > in inspiration and passion and emotional sharing and artistic output. > This path unites man’s spiritual nature – as being of spirit that lives > by intuition and inspiration; with man’s natural nature – as sexual > being; with man’s emotional nature – as being who seeks to share with > and be close to another person; with man’s rational nature – as being > that seeks to fathom the world through experience. And what I find, > having pursued that path, is that e.e. cummings’ "The final secret will > still be man" should be replaced with this: "The final secret is > woman." Given all the aforementioned concepts of what is man – all of > which are undeniably part of what is man, and all of which are more > natural to some men than to others and more natural to the same man at > different times in his life – we are left at the consummation of > spiritual, philosophical and passionate quest with this: A being that > combines all of these things, at the same, and in which being all these > are integrated and made manifest in their full resplendor. A being who > combines spirit, civilization and nature at once and makes of all of > them the highest fruition and highest embodiment; who is intricate and > delicate and warm and delightful; who is a masterpiece herself – a > masterpiece combining all forces that make human beingness – and out of > the wisdom that is embodied within her creates magnificent paintings, > photographs and calligraphy and reaches out to others seeking to show > them the paradise that she knows and that she is. > So my solution? IN FLORE VERITAS. In flower, truth. The logic of > consummation and continuity. The truth I found? Julia. > I hope you find the truth that works for you. > Ilya Shambat.

Those who speak don’t know. Those who know don’t speak. The Tao

Response:

The simplistic worldviews are easy to the mind, but wrong to the being. The human body has 3 trillion cells, arranged in intricate patterns, and simple-minded worldviews – whether of Protestant nature or of "realist" nature – the likes of which have been inexplicably and overbearingly equated with ethics and honor and good citizenship are simply dishonest and untrue. There may be a simple cause, or a simple outcome, at a higher level. But before its nature can be truly glimpsed, it is incumbent to see the complexity of the manifestation, or else one’s view be dishonest – and, as a result, barbaric and malicious. Every belief system that ever existed, from religious to secular, was based on the concept of what is man. It appears that many of them were part-right; that they were describing part of human beingness, and their solutions were right to the extent that they were appropriate for the person at hand at the time of life of that person. This is as much true for capitalism as it is true for science, as it is true for psychology, as it is true for religion and spirituality and other paths. The Buddhist approach of achieving enlightenment is achieving oneness with the law of cause and effect, which is seen to be the true reality beyond all mental and sensory fabrication. "The enlightened individual is one with the law of cause and effect." From which position the enlightened individual, from what I can see, is apparently driven by the law of cause and effect to do deeds of compassion and good for one’s fellow human beings, with the ultimate goal of getting them to the same place. It appears likewise that the enlightened individual (as well as an individual on path to enlightenment) is put into situations where he has to rectify wrong done either in this or in previous lifetime; to clear himself of karmic entanglements; and to free himself for ultimate liberation, at which point he apparently has the choice either to continue existing and go back to help other people or to simply disappear into the light. The deeds done wrong at a higher state of enlightenment carry more weight than the deeds done wrong at lower states, and the constant presence of mind and spirit is requisite in order not only to maintain that state of being, but likewise to do what is in the interests of humanity – the interests that Buddhism believes to be liberation and final merger. The joy and compassion and ever-present energy that is associated with state of Buddhist illumination are functions of man’s presence in the Buddhist truth – the true cause-and-effect; the all-as-is – which is seen to be man’s true and intended state, and which is as such experienced as a place of joy that hath no bounds – joy that is as such absolute as being absolute fulfilment of that which is man’s true Buddha nature. It occurs to me that many other paths that seek enlightenment of one or another kind, based on one or another concept of what is man’s truth and man’s actual nature, offer paths that are of similar character. The scientific path, that claims man’s true nature as being of intellect whose purpose is acquisition of knowledge through scientific method in one or another discipline, seeks to identify the mind with the canon of knowledge that exists in the discipline and then use his own mind to build on that canon. The mind is disciplined into the mindset of scientific method; which mindset is trained to exclude all modes of cognition that are inconsistent with scientific method and that must present all new evidence in terms of evidence that already exists in the field being studied. This is a different path toward what is seen to be enlightenment, based on a different concept of what is man’s true nature and leading to significantly different results. The joy of discovery and the quest to continue – what is believed to be man’s true nature as a being that seeks to apprehend the world through empirical study – motivate man through many plodding hours of analysis and examination; new ideas come up, build on each other, are discarded, and then occasionally turn over the entire body of knowledge with an explanation that completely uproots the previous way of thinking and replaces it with something not thought of before. The joy seen here is likewise seen to be a reflection of man’s true nature as the scientist and discoverer; with the result being of course not only his own joy but addition to man’s quest for knowledge as such. In ideology-driven societies such as Communism, enlightenment was seen to be identification with the ideology; which was supposed to produce the man that Communism saw as being man’s true nature: That of service to the proletariat and progress of mankind. This likewise was advertised as man’s greatest joy based on the belief of what Communism believed to be man: A part in a historical process leading inevitably to a global Communist order in which all selflessly serve the common good and are indiscriminately given what they need. Militaristic ideologies, that believe man’s true nature to be that of warrior, advertise man’s greatest joy as that of winning in battle – and that of course works for some, but with consequences for others. In capitalism, man’s true nature is seen to be that of consumer and of producer, whose natural good is material acquisition and of doing whatever work or business transaction is necessary to produce the goods necessary to trade in the market for the good that one seeks. The joy advertised here is that of having possessions; which is believed to be man’s "rational self-interest" – and the exchange of which goods in the market through mechanism of competition and improved efficiency is claimed to lead to improvement in the "rational self-interest" of all. This economic concept of man – as a being seeking to maximize utility – is of course in direct contradiction to the concept of man as a spiritual being whose goal is spiritual enlightenment; as a rational being whose goal is knowledge; as a part of a historically inevitable process; as a warrior; or anything similar. The psychological concept of man depends upon the psychology. We have everything from existential "self-actualization" to social-animal stuff to various psychoanalytic traditions to the neo-Calvinism of Scott Peck and Hillmann. The idea of what gives highest joy becomes a function of what is seen to be the true nature of what is man. And of course in all these cases, it plays better to people who operate on the level described by the psychologist than they do on others – in the same way as is the case for capitalism, science, Communism and other ideologies. The concept of what is man drives the ideology. The fact of human difference means that each of these is more appropriate for some than for others; and each of these paths work better for one person than they do for the next. The Christian concept of man is that of embodied spirit invented for service to God; and the highest joy is seen as that of surrender to Holy Spirit and serving God and man. The highest function is seen as being faith; which faith can be in either the right things or wrong things, but is in all cases the truth of human being. Based on which finding it has been possible for people to do all kinds of spinoff traditions, from metaphysics to mysticism to New Age spirituality, in which the person is placing his faith in one or another thing and is by that faith brought to it and into it completely. Finally there is the romantic path, that sees man’s nature as that of the lover and finds man’s highest joy in passionate love and manifests in inspiration and passion and emotional sharing and artistic output. This path unites man’s spiritual nature – as being of spirit that lives by intuition and inspiration; with man’s natural nature – as sexual being; with man’s emotional nature – as being who seeks to share with and be close to another person; with man’s rational nature – as being that seeks to fathom the world through experience. And what I find, having pursued that path, is that e.e. cummings’ "The final secret will still be man" should be replaced with this: "The final secret is woman." Given all the aforementioned concepts of what is man – all of which are undeniably part of what is man, and all of which are more natural to some men than to others and more natural to the same man at different times in his life – we are left at the consummation of spiritual, philosophical and passionate quest with this: A being that combines all of these things, at the same, and in which being all these are integrated and made manifest in their full resplendor. A being who combines spirit, civilization and nature at once and makes of all of them the highest fruition and highest embodiment; who is intricate and delicate and warm and delightful; who is a masterpiece herself – a masterpiece combining all forces that make human beingness – and out of the wisdom that is embodied within her creates magnificent paintings, photographs and calligraphy and reaches out to others seeking to show them the paradise that she knows and that she is. So my solution? IN FLORE VERITAS. In flower, truth. The logic of consummation and continuity. The truth I found? Julia. I hope you find the truth that works for you. Ilya Shambat.

Response:

Reflections of an American Conversion

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Reflections of an American Conversion By Aaminah Hern

..quiet?

Question:

Where have everybody gone?

That’s what I wonder about too. After more than a year I now look at alt.yoga that is somehow alien to me… What happened to the topic Yoga? Shanti

Response:

Thank you for helping avoid computer threats. Buddhist Gems: Notes on Buddha, essence of Buddhism and its relevance to Tantric spiritual practices and practical meditation guidance. Congregation Gems: Spiritual philosophy and practices in plain English and the transformation from religion to spirituality. Meditation Gems: Tips on practising meditation, philosophy behind Tantric meditation and social service relevant to meditation. PROUT Gems: PROgressive Utilization Theory – the socio-economic theory for the new millennium – based on a spiritual rather than materialistic conceptions of the universe and of humanity – covers history, politics, sociology, economics and more. Tantric Gems: Spiritual practices, lifestyle and philosophy of Tantra meditation and yoga.

Response:

Where have everybody gone? That’s what I wonder about too. After more than a year I now look at alt.yoga that is somehow alien to me… What happened to the topic Yoga?

Enlightened beings feel no more need to communicate anymore . Just kidding.

Response:

Where have everybody gone?

Response:

The sun is comming out its wonderfully warm outside in some places so winters ending and theres things to do after interesting rains ,tax refunds came theres great exciting new programs actually for the poor and homeless that exist in ways suddenly meaning work stability as theres a new 4 year cycle in politics starting meaning even more activity on the common mans levels meaningful answers trickle down sense comes about less unwanted children are born police high activity means people are even more careful avoiding things get done smoother and they are better at the outdooors so murders are way down as marijuana goes medical as crime is down as new laws snake larger dealers in other things (wiretaps) again people fear the streets less want to move about. Old problems are solved new problems have not time yet to gas/oil prices again very good that they raise…….new concepts emerge as islam mets the west slowly but does as its only in aramic for good reason slowly but it does and that again puts waves of thinking upon are in bad to worse conditions the old people are dying in larger numbers as the very young and death is far up as medical is going from bad to worse also the only two areas going from bad to worse as the illegal alien problem is being solved the foodworkers in dis-array yet they know exactly how to avoid trouble and they never will have much trouble its complicated but insurance medical food and low wage jobs with gas/oil mean the comming end for years of excellent food…… There was no pollution control so organic topples a sham no plan to create jobs at low wages bio tech terrorist funds got ripped off in so many places by local crooked politicans fixing the books the medical profession ended as a profession costs are no longer possible so the young old died and died over the last few years as numbers up and and loaded with dead trailers another war result of old bad medical savings costs they die leave thousands upon thousands of trailers rv’s construction equipment the rest with nobody to handle it depreciation schedules wipe out value’s insurance costs leaves the youger spreading the older catching diesease niether paying as gov insurance is being attacked by the doctors wanting more private unobtainable and the gov is smart enuff to know real estate prices could triple the homeless every couple years and cant see increasing wages for doctors that invest in are some now many eyesight failing are leaving computers spending more time shoppping for food goig slower less time to get sick and estate problems storage sales the gods of the dead require time other….jd

Response:

Buddhistic addiction recovery

Question:

  I know its not quite to the point of your question, I guess my question is your question. Are there any e-mail groups or newsgroups specializing in recovery from a Buddhist perspective? How about this: http://buddhist12steps.com/ Wow, there really is one! How cool!

It hasn’t been updated since last year, and it is not cool. Or this: http://www.flatmajic.com/12step_books_gifts/spirituality/Buddhism/bud…

Reconciling the irreconcilable. I just did a Google search for "Buddhism and Recovery".

I wish you had found something worthwhile in that search. The 12 steps *don’t work*.  The success rate of 12 steppers is not even a particle better than the success rate of those who undertake no recovery program at all.  That means that the 12 steps are worthless lies, and the program is a racket. A key to recovery is *meditation*.  Wen you come to the point that you *value* a clear and responsive mind, the state of intoxication loses *all* attraction. Rational Recovery was a non-12-step organization that seemed to me to have some good ideas, but I haven’t kept up with them. When I googled "Rational Recovery" I found the problem right quick.  They are too strident.  But not wrong.  DaveA — "We have learned the lessons of Viet Nam." –anon Spokesman "Failure is not an option." –anon Spokesman Can both be true? n  Are both false? y  Right answers get my vote.

Response:

Are there any e-mail groups or newsgroups specializing in recovery from a Buddhist perspective?

That would be interesting. I’ve been in recovery for a number of years now, and from the little knowledge I’ve gathered about Buddhism, many aspects seem to complement the 12-step recovery program. I came into AA to escape from my addictions, and ended up discovering a spiritual life that I never imagined possible. Now it’s about way more than "quitting alcohol and drugs", it’s about surrendering your will to a power greater than yourself. The beauty of it is, that power can be anything you want it to be. It can be the energy surrounding us in nature and the universe. It can be a being named "God". It can be the lightbulb in your kitchen. I knew a guy once whose higher power was a doorknob! I’m not sure how the concept of a higher power meshes with Buddhism, but moving away from the "self" would seem to point in the same direction. I wonder if anyone has written extensively on the subject of Buddhism and Recovery? I’m thinking of a whole book rather than just a Website. How about this: http://buddhist12steps.com/ Wow, there really is one! How cool! Or this: http://www.flatmajic.com/12step_books_gifts/spirituality/Buddhism/bud… I just did a Google search for "Buddhism and Recovery".

Response:

Are there any e-mail groups or newsgroups specializing in recovery from a Buddhist perspective?

I am disappointed that there are not more replies to this question. DaveA — …New occasions teach new duties; Time makes ancient good uncouth; They must upward still, and onward, who would keep abreast of truth; Lo, before us gleam her camp-fires! we ourselves must Pilgrims be; Launch our Mayflower, and steer boldly through the desperate winter sea; Nor attempt the Future’s portal with the Past’s blood-rusted key.       —James Russell Lowell:  "The Present Crisis" 1844.

Response:

I guess my question is your question. Books would be great but a group wherein I could talk about Buddhism in direct relation to Buddhism would be a nice experience. Buddhism attracted me because it insists of consciousness. That works in relation to addiction, too. Are there any e-mail groups or newsgroups specializing in recovery from a Buddhist perspective?

. I wonder if anyone has written extensively on the subject of Buddhism and Recovery? I’m thinking of a whole book rather than just a Website. How about this: http://buddhist12steps.com/ Wow, there really is one! How cool! Or this:

http://www.flatmajic.com/12step_books_gifts/spirituality/Buddhism/bud… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just did a Google search for "Buddhism and Recovery".

Response:

Patrick,   I know its not quite to the point of your question, but the thought occurs to me that in a sense, Buddhist practice is all about recovery from addiction.  Of course, we don’t normally think of it in terms of recovery from substance abuse — but there’s a perspective from which being addicted to substances is not much different than being addicted to our concepts of success, pleasure, security, and identity.   I would think that just studying the Dharma, practicing, and joining a local center would go a long way toward addressing recovery from addiction. My wife is a counselor for heroin addicts, and as I listen to the stories she brings home, I often think "what that person needs to add to their program is meditation!", etc… Thanks, Les

I guess my question is your question. Books would be great but a group wherein I could talk about Buddhism in direct relation to Buddhism would be a nice experience. Buddhism attracted me because it insists of consciousness. That works in relation to addiction, too.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are there any e-mail groups or newsgroups specializing in recovery from a Buddhist perspective? . I wonder if anyone has written extensively on the subject of Buddhism and Recovery? I’m thinking of a whole book rather than just a Website. How about this: http://buddhist12steps.com/ Wow, there really is one! How cool! Or this:

http://www.flatmajic.com/12step_books_gifts/spirituality/Buddhism/bud… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just did a Google search for "Buddhism and Recovery".

Response:

Are there any e-mail groups or newsgroups specializing in recovery from a Buddhist perspective?

Response:

Are there any e-mail groups or newsgroups specializing in recovery from a Buddhist perspective?

My understanding is that there is quite a bit of rehab work done by monks in Thailand, or at least it has been publicized in the west effectively. In a sense, all Buddhism is a rehab activity.  Lord Buddha said that while most people were physically healthy most of the time, that was not true of mental health.  DaveA — …New occasions teach new duties; Time makes ancient good uncouth; They must upward still, and onward, who would keep abreast of truth; Lo, before us gleam her camp-fires! we ourselves must Pilgrims be; Launch our Mayflower, and steer boldly through the desperate winter sea; Nor attempt the Future’s portal with the Past’s blood-rusted key.       —James Russell Lowell:  "The Present Crisis" 1844.

Response:

WHAT'S THIS DIASPORA?

Question:

NOT a Dr, also pretending to be an Indian Brahmin and pretending to be a Jyotishi spammed his OT repost relentless advertising for his commercial "astrology" site link.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Forwarded message posted for discussion What’s this Diaspora? By Sebastian Mani January 29, 2003 I have been hearing and reading a lot about the diaspora. At every party I have been to lately, the conversation has revolved around it — about the prime minister inaugurating the diaspora meet, Sonia meeting the diaspora, diaspora this, diaspora that. So I too began to think about it. I had many questions, but I haven’t really got any answers. I write this diary in the hope that perhaps someone can answer me. My first question is: What is this diaspora? Somebody better define it soon. Because I am told this great country, which came into being just after the Ice Age, flourished in the Vedic Ages, survived the largest number of invasions, is going to suffer tomorrow if the diaspora does not invest in it! All I hear these days is ‘Open up the economy, else the diaspora will not invest and make the country prosperous’. So, who are these people? My daughter, born in Arlington, Texas, and my pop-singer cousin Bobby, an all-American citizen, do they belong to the diaspora? Or are they just People of Indian Origin? Or are they like the steel barons and mining magnates of Europe and the Americas who threw away their Indian passports like soiled tissues just to save bucks on tax? Then, what does this diaspora — once we have finished defining it — really want? Do they want to promote the country where their parents were born once upon a time? Or do they just want to exploit the low-cost human and natural resources, and save the profit in some Isle of Man account? Will they really invest in India? Or just hold the lion’s share through an offshore company registered near the Malacca Straits? Are they interested in working within the existing socio- political framework? Or do they want to thrust the idiotic consumerism-centric market economy on people who are intellectually far more advanced than any of their counterparts anywhere in the world? Are the benefits mutual? What do we need to give? What do we get back? History proves India has been an eternal Giver. Every ruler who came to India has looted her. There is still time to recognize that the Indian economy is not made or supported by anybody, but has evolved, on its own, out of time, and that it will not cease to exist because of any external force — and definitely not because the diaspora does not help. I say we need to look for hidden traps and sugar-coated poison pills. Western business is backed militarily by Suppressive Diplomacy. We don’t have such backing. Our ambassadors cannot influence big business houses to choose our products over those of another country. My final question is, where was the diaspora all these years? Don’t tell me the economy was not open. You cannot sell that to me. The economy has been open since the 1980s. The changes propagated now are minor, just a media exercise. It looks like no one wanted to go there then. Now everybody wants to go there and preach. Why? I will tell you. Because the West is getting weaker and weaker. People now have second thoughts about the stability of the dollar. The axis of the supply chain is slowly shifting towards Asia. There are many who spent their lives bashing India. In every Western medium, India had become a synonym for filth. Why did the diaspora clap their hands then? Now it looks like someone has run a search-replace command on every write-up that showed us in good light and replaced ‘India’ with ‘Asia’. So we now have stuff like: Yog is an ‘Asian’ practice, Ayurved is an ‘Asian’ tradition, Buddhism is an ‘Asian’ religion, transcendental meditation originated in ‘Asian’ countries, Columbus was looking for a route to ‘Asia’… Well. When the West is trying hard to fight the acid-reflux disease caused mainly by the caffeine in soda-pop with buttermilk, are we going to throw away that traditional drink, which should be patented to every Indian, and go for the coloured, carbonated killer drink? When the emotionally distressed, culturally drained, spiritually hollow Western civilization is looking eastwards for peace of mind, aren’t we entitled to at least a nod of recognition for our helping hand? In this highly volatile, politically polarized world, when dollar-centric economies are trying all sorts of acrobatics to resist the intellectual capacity supplemented with tremendous capability from the Asian quadrant, why are we giving what’s ours without any serious negotiation? It is time we sat at the negotiating table and demanded our due.  - Sebastian Mani End of forwarded message Read the complete news at: http://www.rediff.com News Plus http://www.mantra.com/newsplus Jai Maharaj http://www.mantra.com/jai Om Shanti Panchaang for 24 Ashadh 5104, Tuesday, July 22, 2003: Shubhanu Nama Samvatsare Dakshinaya Nartana Ritau      Kark Mase Krishna Pakshe Mangal Vasara Yuktayam Bharani Nakshatr Shool-Ganda Yog      Gar-Vanij Karan Navami-Dashami Yam Tithau Hindu Holocaust Museum http://www.mantra.com/holocaust Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy http://www.hindu.org http://www.hindunet.org The truth about Islam and Muslims http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate      o  Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may not have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.      o  If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read, considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, current e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number.      o  Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others are not necessarily those of the poster.

Response:

Forwarded message posted for discussion What’s this Diaspora? By Sebastian Mani January 29, 2003 I have been hearing and reading a lot about the diaspora. At every party I have been to lately, the conversation has revolved around it — about the prime minister inaugurating the diaspora meet, Sonia meeting the diaspora, diaspora this, diaspora that. So I too began to think about it. I had many questions, but I haven’t really got any answers. I write this diary in the hope that perhaps someone can answer me. My first question is: What is this diaspora? Somebody better define it soon. Because I am told this great country, which came into being just after the Ice Age, flourished in the Vedic Ages, survived the largest number of invasions, is going to suffer tomorrow if the diaspora does not invest in it! All I hear these days is ‘Open up the economy, else the diaspora will not invest and make the country prosperous’. So, who are these people? My daughter, born in Arlington, Texas, and my pop-singer cousin Bobby, an all-American citizen, do they belong to the diaspora? Or are they just People of Indian Origin? Or are they like the steel barons and mining magnates of Europe and the Americas who threw away their Indian passports like soiled tissues just to save bucks on tax? Then, what does this diaspora — once we have finished defining it — really want? Do they want to promote the country where their parents were born once upon a time? Or do they just want to exploit the low-cost human and natural resources, and save the profit in some Isle of Man account? Will they really invest in India? Or just hold the lion’s share through an offshore company registered near the Malacca Straits? Are they interested in working within the existing socio- political framework? Or do they want to thrust the idiotic consumerism-centric market economy on people who are intellectually far more advanced than any of their counterparts anywhere in the world? Are the benefits mutual? What do we need to give? What do we get back? History proves India has been an eternal Giver. Every ruler who came to India has looted her. There is still time to recognize that the Indian economy is not made or supported by anybody, but has evolved, on its own, out of time, and that it will not cease to exist because of any external force — and definitely not because the diaspora does not help. I say we need to look for hidden traps and sugar-coated poison pills. Western business is backed militarily by Suppressive Diplomacy. We don’t have such backing. Our ambassadors cannot influence big business houses to choose our products over those of another country. My final question is, where was the diaspora all these years? Don’t tell me the economy was not open. You cannot sell that to me. The economy has been open since the 1980s. The changes propagated now are minor, just a media exercise. It looks like no one wanted to go there then. Now everybody wants to go there and preach. Why? I will tell you. Because the West is getting weaker and weaker. People now have second thoughts about the stability of the dollar. The axis of the supply chain is slowly shifting towards Asia. There are many who spent their lives bashing India. In every Western medium, India had become a synonym for filth. Why did the diaspora clap their hands then? Now it looks like someone has run a search-replace command on every write-up that showed us in good light and replaced ‘India’ with ‘Asia’. So we now have stuff like: Yog is an ‘Asian’ practice, Ayurved is an ‘Asian’ tradition, Buddhism is an ‘Asian’ religion, transcendental meditation originated in ‘Asian’ countries, Columbus was looking for a route to ‘Asia’… Well. When the West is trying hard to fight the acid-reflux disease caused mainly by the caffeine in soda-pop with buttermilk, are we going to throw away that traditional drink, which should be patented to every Indian, and go for the coloured, carbonated killer drink? When the emotionally distressed, culturally drained, spiritually hollow Western civilization is looking eastwards for peace of mind, aren’t we entitled to at least a nod of recognition for our helping hand? In this highly volatile, politically polarized world, when dollar-centric economies are trying all sorts of acrobatics to resist the intellectual capacity supplemented with tremendous capability from the Asian quadrant, why are we giving what’s ours without any serious negotiation? It is time we sat at the negotiating table and demanded our due.  - Sebastian Mani End of forwarded message Read the complete news at: http://www.rediff.com News Plus http://www.mantra.com/newsplus Jai Maharaj http://www.mantra.com/jai Om Shanti Panchaang for 24 Ashadh 5104, Tuesday, July 22, 2003: Shubhanu Nama Samvatsare Dakshinaya Nartana Ritau      Kark Mase Krishna Pakshe Mangal Vasara Yuktayam Bharani Nakshatr Shool-Ganda Yog      Gar-Vanij Karan Navami-Dashami Yam Tithau Hindu Holocaust Museum http://www.mantra.com/holocaust Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy http://www.hindu.org http://www.hindunet.org The truth about Islam and Muslims http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate      o  Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may not have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.      o  If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read, considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, current e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number.      o  Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others are not necessarily those of the poster.

Response:

My spirituality

Question:

The Prayer to St. Michael implies that there exist "evil spirits". My spirituaity conlficts somewhat with this traditional Catholic prayer. In my view, there is no such thing as an evil spirit, because bad people who die simply "cease to be". Only a good person can make it into the afterlife, which includes heaven, purgatory, or the restless state of being between death and life …. that of a ghost or spirit. IMO, hell itself is simply physical death and decay. There is no true existence, in a spiritual sense, when one has gone to hell. In essence, I view the spirit as the only aspect of a human being with any capacity toward goodness, and matter as the aspect of the world that is corruptable and can be turned toward evil. If there are evil spirits, they are the dead living, and not the living dead. Dan

Response:

Not only is hell physical death and decay, but hell is also an absence of love. IMO, it is love that gives the body life. The book "Finding my Catholic Faith" posits the idea that hell is more a state of being, a state of no love, rather than an actual place. I agree with this notion. If heaven and hell are states of being rather than places, then heaven may share many similarities with Buddhism’s Nirvana. Dan ———- My spirituality   Group: alt.support.schizophrenia Date: Sun, Jun 22, 2003, 11:00am From: FrijolesRanc…@webtv.net (Daniel

BUDDHISM THE CAUSE OF NATION'S DOWNFALL

Question:

End of forwarded message "I do believe that where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence I would advise violence . . . but non-violence is infinitely superior to violence."  - Mahatma Gandhi.

This is just another example of Hindus saying that Buddhism has been somehow encompassed and superseded by Hinduism.  You can tell where this shit comes from by the emphasis on a concept which we Buddhists don’t have, which is *justification.* Nothing justifies anything, ever, period. People who understand war know the numbers.  The numbers say that a soldier’s job is not to kill, it is to die. The Buddha did not have anything bad to say about the young men who were about to die defending their homelands, when he made peace on what was intended to be a battlefield. He appealed to the reason of the kings to prevent the war from happening.  Unfortunately, murderous nutcases like our president are immune from such an appeal. DaveA

Response:

Forwarded message Buddhism – the cause of India’s downfall Ahinsa and Maya should not be turned into inflexible dogmas Buddhism offered a simple way out of human misery to anybody, whatever their status. This may explain why at the beginning of our era, the entire northern and eastern India was practicing Buddhism. Unfortunately, after Buddha’s death, his followers gradually made Buddhism a religion of rigid tenets, do’s and don’t, which not only diminished its popular appeal, but also harmed India. This harm has two facets; non-violence and Maya. Many Buddhists like to believe that Buddhism disappeared from India, because it was slowly "swallowed’ back by Hinduism at the hands of the vengeful Brahmins. But the truth could be entirely different. Hinduism of the Vedas and the Gita always held Ahinsa as one of its highest spiritual values, but at the same time understood that violence can sometimes be necessary to defend one’s borders, women and children. Which is why, until Buddhism made non-violence an uncompromising, inflexible dogma, India’s borders were not only secure, but extended from Afghanistan to kanyakumari. But when Ashoka embraced Buddhism, one sees that soon thereafter the first invasion-that of Alexander the Great-submerged the subcontinent: India’s great protecting armor, which had worked for millenniums, had been breached. As the first Muslim invasions started submerging India in the seventh century, Hinduism was able to initially withstand the violent onslaught of Islam, thanks to its tradition of Kshatriyas, but contrary to what history books say, buddhism was literally wiped off the face of India in a few centuries, as it refused to oppose any resistance. For the Muslim soldiers, Buddhists, who adored statues and did not believe in Allah, were as much infidels as the Hindus, and they razed every single Buddhist temple (and also Jain, as the ruins below Fatepur Sikri have proved) they encountered burnt all the precious libraries and killed tens of thousands of monks, without encountering any resistance. This is why you cannot find a single trace of Buddhist structures today in India, save for a few stupas, which were to cumbersome to be destroyed. The second unfortunate legacy which Buddhism gave to India is maya. "Everything is illusion, everything is misery, misery, misery, Buddhists said-and still say today-and the sooner you get out of it by attaining nirvana, the better. But Hinduism had always taught that the Divine is concealed in all things, animate and inanimate, and that every aspect of life has to be conquered by the spirit even the Asura is a fallen angel, doing unknowingly God’s work. Hence Hinduism had addressed itself to all aspects of life, from the mundane, as brilliantly shown in Khajurao, to the subtle spiritual planes which stand one after the other above mind. In contrast, Budhhism came and said: "Just leave matter and take refuge in Buddha". And as result, because Buddhism has had a subtle influence on Hinduism, India started disdaining her physical envelope, her very body and material sheath, India’s yogis started withdrawing more and more in their caves, its people neglecting their surroundings,its leaders forgetting about beauty. And the result is there today for everybody to see: an ugly India, full of trash and refuse,with very little sense of aesthetics left; cities unplanned, polluted, crowded, hideous; and people who says it worships its mighty Himalayas and sacred Ganges, but which has allowed the former to be nearly completely deforested and the latter to be so polluted, that sometimes it is not even fit for bathing. And Indians cannot put all this on account of poverty, because its rich people count of poverty, because its rich people are probably the most guilty, often not caring for anything and anybody beyond their own doorstep. It is true that Buddhism has nearly completely disappeared from the subcontinent but its rigid spirit endures in subtle ways: mahatma Gandhi was not doubt influenced by Buddhist not-violence when he Churchill’s proposal in 1943 for a common wealth status after the Second World War, if India collaborated with the Allied efforts against japan and Germany, or when he constantly gave in to Muslim intransigence, thereby precipitating India’s Partition. Today, we see that the enemies of a dharmic India often use Buddhism as a weapon, whether it is the much hyped Ambedkar, who advocated conversion of Dalits to Buddhism, or Indian intellectuals such as Praful Bidwal and Arundhati Roy, who borrow from Buddhist thought to show why India should not have the atom bomb. We see also, in a country like Sri Lanka, a very militant Buddhism, chauvinistic in its promotion of sinhala interests and anti-Hindu in its persecution of Sri Lanka Tamils. We notice too that new avatars of Buddhism, such as the remarkable Vipasana movement of Shri Goenka, have not fully lost their anti-Hindu slant and are still proposing a very rigid non-violence. Western historians like to call emperor Ashoka "the Great" and India chose at Independence his three lions trademark as its symbol. But was he that great? He went from being an extremely cruel emperor to a rigidly non-violent one, not a very balanced mental attitude for a religion, which always promotes the "middle path". Source – http://www.bharatvani.org/general_inbox/pramod/buddhism.html End of forwarded message "I do believe that where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence I would advise violence . . . but non-violence is infinitely superior to violence."  - Mahatma Gandhi. Jai Maharaj http://www.mantra.com/jai Om Shanti Panchaang for 11 Kartik 5103, Friday, November 15, 2002: Chitrabhanu Nama Samvatsare Dakshinaya Jeevana Ritau      Tula Mase Shukla Pakshe Shukra Vasara Yuktayam Uttaraprostapada-Revati Nakshatra Vajra Yoga      Bava Karana Dvadashi Yam Tithau Hindu Holocaust Museum http://www.mantra.com/holocaust Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy http://www.hindu.org http://www.hindunet.org The truth about Islam and Muslims http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may not have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Response:

Who Wrote the Suttas

Question:

Surely, Gatama never had a hand in trying to make his words become static on a paper, and in doing so, trying to avert anicca. Who wrote them and why? The Brahman influence in the Buddhist writings is very apparent. This causes the contradictions that arise in Buddhism and prevents many from getting the Right View. The Buddha, establishing anicca and anatta, surely would not adopt a Brahman belief of karma and samsara. The caste system of the Brahmins was outrageous and cruel to Siddhartha and its dubious whether he would adopt such sources of culture to his teachings. The Buddha was no Brahman. However, after the Buddha’s death, some took it upon themselves to deliberate his teachings to the scribe. What was the purpose of creating a "doctrine" for Gatama’s teachings? Why were they written down and read and not transmitted orally as the Buddha intended? Did the Council of Monks add anything to these teachings? Brahmanism is a part of the culture of the sub-continent of India, so did these monks bring with them certain beliefs that would enhance their recruitment of the Brahman-raised followers? When one considers the enormity of religions and how they came from a society and crossed over into other cultures, you have to wonder what flavors are added by obscure scribes. In my own experience, I have found that when people have a reward ahead of them, then they comply with efforts to achieve these aims. If the reward is rebirth, even in the sense of being reborn lower, people still will accept the half-a-loaf to none. Samsara is a reward for an enslaved people, as the Aryans boldly displayed with their caste system of spirituality. If a man is virtuous, even while enslaved, he may be reborn higher after he is worked to death. There is also the underlying principle of karma, created as the task master, to watch and make sure you get your due….. I doubt that Gatama taught rebirth. It is not concurrent with the teachings of anicca and anatta. So Gatama said everything suffers anicca, even gods perish, and through anatta, nothing travels afterwards. Then he turns around and says that all will return through rebirth? So what was that about anatta? One has to really discern what teachings Gatama taught and what he didn’t teach, or what was culturally added. And to summarize, the Taoists make no claim that Lao Tzu was a human being, nor do they make the claim that he was a compilation of Taoist teachings attributed to a single authorship. Either way, sometimes the -who wrote it and why? – gives a better understanding to the teachings.

Response:

There is nothing to teach and nothing to learn.

Then you will learn nothing.  DaveA

Response:

This is an old chestnut, that Buddhism copied Hinduism, and should be treated with the contempt that it deserves.

: Surely, Gatama never had a hand in trying to make his words become static on : a paper, and in doing so, trying to avert anicca. Who wrote them and why? : The Brahman influence in the Buddhist writings is very apparent. This causes : the contradictions that arise in Buddhism and prevents many from getting the : Right View. The Buddha, establishing anicca and anatta, surely would not : adopt a Brahman belief of karma and samsara. The caste system of the : Brahmins was outrageous and cruel to Siddhartha and its dubious whether he : would adopt such sources of culture to his teachings. The Buddha was no : Brahman. However, after the Buddha’s death, some took it upon themselves to : deliberate his teachings to the scribe. What was the purpose of creating a : "doctrine" for Gatama’s teachings? Why were they written down and read and : not transmitted orally as the Buddha intended? Did the Council of Monks add : anything to these teachings? Brahmanism is a part of the culture of the : sub-continent of India, so did these monks bring with them certain beliefs : that would enhance their recruitment of the Brahman-raised followers? When : one considers the enormity of religions and how they came from a society and : crossed over into other cultures, you have to wonder what flavors are added : by obscure scribes. : In my own experience, I have found that when people have a reward ahead of : them, then they comply with efforts to achieve these aims. If the reward is : rebirth, even in the sense of being reborn lower, people still will accept : the half-a-loaf to none. Samsara is a reward for an enslaved people, as the : Aryans boldly displayed with their caste system of spirituality. If a man is : virtuous, even while enslaved, he may be reborn higher after he is worked to : death. There is also the underlying principle of karma, created as the task : master, to watch and make sure you get your due….. : I doubt that Gatama taught rebirth. It is not concurrent with the teachings : of anicca and anatta. : So Gatama said everything suffers anicca, even gods perish, and through : anatta, nothing travels afterwards. Then he turns around and says that all : will return through rebirth? So what was that about anatta? : One has to really discern what teachings Gatama taught and what he didn’t : teach, or what was culturally added. : And to summarize, the Taoists make no claim that Lao Tzu was a human being, : nor do they make the claim that he was a compilation of Taoist teachings : attributed to a single authorship. : Either way, sometimes the -who wrote it and why? – gives a better : understanding to the teachings. : : : :

Response:

Brahmanism have to do with the four ennobling truths, or anything else of actual doctrine?  Nothing. The Buddha mentioned fire worshippers too.  So what? DaveA Doctrine? The Buddha had a doctrine? The Qu’ran is a doctrine common among all culturally different Muslims. The Bible too has a common doctrine in the Bible across all cultures. I have yet to see a Buddhist writing that is a cross-cultural doctrine.

Doctrine is that which is taught.  You go in circles. DaveA

Response:

There is nothing to teach and nothing to learn. The Buddha talked and people listened. Dharma is transmitted. After one has heard the dharma, sitting in samedhi opens door to insight. Insight can’t be teached, it can only be observed. Meditation is the lamp, wisdom is the light. Take care. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Doctrine is that which is taught.  You go in circles. DaveA

Response:

When the mind is bereft of flowing thoughts, understanding has moved from the discursive intellect to the formless intuition of the being. There is nothing to know and nothing to understand, only the observation of all passing phenomena as it perishes into anicca. When compassion is cultivated from this, there is no "one" just the many who suffer. How can you think about yourself when you are thinking of others benevolence? The self or the "one" perishes into the "all". No journey, no destination, no beginning, no end….the beginning is joined with the end.

.  When does one know enough to move along sans followers. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – F.H.

Response:

What does Brahmanism have to do with the four ennobling truths, or anything else of actual doctrine?  Nothing. The Buddha mentioned fire worshippers too.  So what? DaveA

Doctrine? The Buddha had a doctrine? The Qu’ran is a doctrine common among all culturally different Muslims. The Bible too has a common doctrine in the Bible across all cultures. I have yet to see a Buddhist writing that is a cross-cultural doctrine. Were the voluminous writings on Buddhism culturally affected? Ah yes! Such is the nature of the dharma, it changes through the times and serves many in the same capacity while changing with times and cultures. A Buddhist "doctrine" would only serve to lock Buddhism into a dogma that would surely spell its decline. Samsara and karma are cultural beliefs held fast by all Brahmans in their subjagating caste system. The Buddha was hardly a Brahman! And surely he wasn’t two-faced to advocate the teachings from such a corrupt archetypal religion. Anicca and anatta are uniquely Buddhist and can’t support the Brahaman belief of samsara and karma.

Response:

Surely, Gatama never had a hand in trying to make his words become static on a paper, and in doing so, trying to avert anicca. Who wrote them and why? The Brahman influence in the Buddhist writings is very apparent. This causes the contradictions that arise in Buddhism

Of course that thesis has absolutely nothing to do with reality and makes no sense whatever.  Brahmanism is irrelevant, regardless of its "influence".  What does Brahmanism have to do with the four ennobling truths, or anything else of actual doctrine?  Nothing. The Buddha mentioned fire worshippers too.  So what? DaveA

Response:

Either way, sometimes the -who wrote it and why? – gives a better understanding to the teachings.

I notice the same who and why search for understanding among Christians.  Or is it?  It seems at times a handy overcrowded rest stop between seeking and practicing.  So much seeking of understanding, so much pointing the way.  When does one know enough to move along sans followers. F.H.

Response:

Any spiritual atheists out there?

Question:

Talking about

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out there type of atheist!

Well… um.. yeah.. I’m a little weird but not significantly more weird than any other person on this planet. The usual "anti-christian" atheist probably would never go to church but remember that Buddhism is essentially an atheistic religion.  Even in Hinduism, the "lower gods" can be interpreted as archetypes and the top God "Brahman" could be real or could be just a state of mind.  But I digress (I’m not answering why I originally went to a UU church.) Why I went to a UU church: Dad believed in God, he just didn’t believe in religion. So, he never went to church. Mom considers herself agnostic.  She doesn’t know whether God exists or not.  But she wanted to go to church.  One pastor that she loved had a sermon about "Why isn’t church more like a bar?" He read the lyrics to "Cheers"   ‘… sometimes you wanna go where everybody knows your name        and their always glad to came       you wanna be where you can see our troubles are all the same.       you wanna be where everyone knows your name…" Also I had been exposed to the concept of "humanism".  While searching the internet for info on humanism I found a site that said humanist are basically unchurched unitarians.  Or unitarians are church going humanists.  whichever.. Also, religion encourages personal discipline.  (No… I’m not talking about whipping yourself.  I mean "keeping the house clean" literally and figuratively.) So… if Dad was a person who believed in God but not religion… it seems I’m a person who believes in religion but not God.

Response:

Serious spiritual endeavor isn’t necessarily predicated on belief at all, it requires only sincerity and relentless honesty with oneself. Well that is just existence at no more than the psychic level.  

There is no such thing as "the psychic level."  All "existence" is by nature non-dual, undivided. You need to go further.

Further than what, this mythical, arbitrary "psychic level?"  :-) How does spirituality function outside of a belief in the supernatural and/or of a god/religion? Spirituality involves a psycho-spiritual approach. Spiritual practice is the conversion of the small object into that Infinite ‘object’.  Now, you think that "This small body, this unit consciousness, is mine."  But when you think "That vast universal body is mine," then you are the spiritually that Infinite Consciousness.  

This is not far enough.   Ultimately there is no posession or identity, iow not "That vast universal body is mine," but "all is consciousness." When this individual body and mind is yours, you know all the secrets of this individual physical body and mind.  And when this vast cosmos is your object, you’ll know everything of this cosmos, you’ll know everything of this infinite space.  So your spiritual practice is the practice of conversion – conversion of small into big.

Serious spiritual endeavor is not a matter of acquiring knowledge, which is nothing more than dead stored data. This process of conversion makes a person universal.  One’s very existence goes beyond the scope of time, place and person.  The entire universe is in the range of the mind of the Universal Consciousness, so there remains no second entity, no second individual.  Thus the question of any clash doesn’t arise.

You still fail to go far enough, but I suspect we’re running onto terminology problems.   Consciousness is by nature universal, and to assign it a "mind" is to anthropomorphize and thereby misunderstand it. If one wants to attain peace, what is one to do?  One is to convert one’s small objectivity into the infinite objectivity.  There is no other alternative.  Simply teaching the gospels of peace won’t give you any peace.

We’re in total agreement on that! You have to convert yourself from small into big.  Spiritual practice is the practice of increasing one’s own psychic radius.  When it becomes bigger and bigger, the range of mind is bigger.  And when in this way the radius becomes infinite, the aspirant becomes one with the Supreme (God).  This becoming one with the Supreme, the Supreme Union, is called Salvation or emancipation – liberation of permanent nature.

This is a rather poor depiction, since it is in the language of increase, achievement, and acquisition.  Ultimately, true "liberation" is not of this ilk at all, it is the spontaneous falling away of any such notion. Anything is mere dabbling in relativities

Bullseye, including so- called "spiritual practice." http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

Response:

Of course where else but the USA would you find the notion of spiritual mixed up with self interest How did self interest get mixed up in this?

Actually, all "spiritual seeking" activity is a matter of self-interest, regardless of what country or culture is involved.  What is the yearning for "God" or "enlightenment" other than garden variety ambition cloaked in holy robes?  Understand, I am not judging the seeker or the seeking, but feel it is important to see both for what they are! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Raptor514 Ditto! There are about 30 million of us in the US (about 10% of the population and growing). So throughout my life I have practiced my spirituality in isolation, meditating, yoga, reading, living life to its fullest.

http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

Response:

Of course where else but the USA would you find the notion of spiritual mixed up with self interest

How did self interest get mixed up in this? Raptor514 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ditto! There are about 30 million of us in the US (about 10% of the population and growing). So throughout my life I have practiced my spirituality in isolation, meditating, yoga, reading, living life to its fullest.

Response:

You don’t find a community – you make one! You can search forever if you like – but if you are after utopia you will not find that in the world which is subject to relativity. The idea of finding a community is like trying to buy something prepackaged. Which supermarket do you think it is in and on which shelf.

I suspect I am (and wish to be more so) what you might call a spiritual atheist. Good luck finding a community – I understand the desire.

Response:

| | Have you studied BUDDHISM?AS it is an ATEIST RELIGION, it may suit to you. | | Yes I have, mainly through books, and I do realize that it it’s true | form Buddhism has no God or diety. | | However, reincarnation seems to play a central, if not THE central | role in most Buddhist beliefs, and is something I do not believe in | either. | | | I have heard one interpretation of reincarnation that didn’t mean | "survival of death" in any literal sense. | If you understand that you are not exactly the same person that you | were yesterday and that tomorrow you are not the same person as today | – then isn’t death just one more change after a lifetimes changes? | You could say we a continuously reborn throughout our lives – and kama | has its place in such an understanding. That is correct, and that is how I see it as a Buddhist. The most fundamental principle of Buddhism is impermanence and this applies to ourselves, our personality, ego, self, God, and even Buddhism itself. They are all physical or mental constructs and as they are all impermanent, subject to birth, decay and death, cannot be said to be real. They are just convenient to use shortcuts but exist only by agreement and convention. Outside of that they have no existence. As far as reincarnation is concerned, there is therefore nothing that can reincarnate, or if you will, the process of change itself is reincarnation. But as there are no objects, it does not happen to a "thing", but simply happens. The difficulty we have in the West is that we think in terms of entities, and that this is supported by our languages. Discard all thinking in terms of entities, objects, including yourself, and many a conundrum evaporates in front of your eyes. Think in terms of processes and functions. The Buddha said that in a second there are 72000 discreet thought elements that arise and decay. We invent ourselves continuously through this process. Our inertia, our habits, our beliefs give the impression that this stream has some continuity, but this is just one more illusion. Enlightenment is when this thought process comes to a complete halt. And what can be said or written after this happens? — Namu Amida Butsu Peter Reber "Life knows its needs"

Response:

Serious spiritual endeavor isn’t necessarily predicated on belief at all, it requires only sincerity and relentless honesty with oneself.

Well that is just existence at no more than the psychic level.  You need to go further. How does spirituality function outside of a belief in the supernatural and/or of a god/religion?

Spirituality involves a psycho-spiritual approach. Spiritual practice is the conversion of the small object into that Infinite ‘object’.  Now, you think that "This small body, this unit consciousness, is mine."  But when you think "That vast universal body is mine," then you are the spiritually that Infinite Consciousness.  When this individual body and mind is yours, you know all the secrets of this individual physical body and mind.  And when this vast cosmos is your object, you’ll know everything of this cosmos, you’ll know everything of this infinite space.  So your spiritual practice is the practice of conversion – conversion of small into big.  This process of conversion makes a person universal.  One’s very existence goes beyond the scope of time, place and person.  The entire universe is in the range of the mind of the Universal Consciousness, so there remains no second entity, no second individual.  Thus the question of any clash doesn’t arise.  If one wants to attain peace, what is one to do?  One is to convert one’s small objectivity into the infinite objectivity.  There is no other alternative.  Simply teaching the gospels of peace won’t give you any peace. You have to convert yourself from small into big.  Spiritual practice is the practice of increasing one’s own psychic radius.  When it becomes bigger and bigger, the range of mind is bigger.  And when in this way the radius becomes infinite, the aspirant becomes one with the Supreme (God).  This becoming one with the Supreme, the Supreme Union, is called Salvation or emancipation – liberation of permanent nature. Anything is mere dabbling in relativities

Response:

I used to be a complete atheist, until I found the only god I can truly know. The Inner Self…

that’s wright, believe in your self first, before acknowledging the existence of something that we dont even know, some thing based on assumption, all these ideas about nirvana,liberation,merging with god are baseless.One can’t even solve the problems of our own existence, eg our basic needs  and  we try escape out of the reality by resorting to spirituality!! Has anyone seen ,felt or talk to god, even they did what benefit those experiences brought to humanity?

Response:

I used to be a complete atheist, until I found the only god I can truly know.  The Inner Self… that’s wright, believe in your self first, before acknowledging the existence of something that we dont even know

   Do we truly know ourselves?   Tell me about it… some thing based on assumption, all these ideas about nirvana,liberation,merging with god are baseless.

   Baseless?   I don’t think so.    Nirvana is simply the state of mind of "non-grasping", i.e. desirelessness, which yields tranquility and peace, contentment w/ what is, a joy supreme.    "Merging w/ God" is perhaps to some a puffed-up description, lets instead put it this way: "I don’t know what it is, but boy is it absolutely fantastic!" One can’t even solve the problems of our own existence, eg our basic needs

   You can’t?   Gee, get a job, problems of existence solved!    Remember Jesus said "God knows you need all the basics (food, clothing, shelter), yet do not chase after them, instead seek God and his kingdom, and all the rest will be given to you as well."  and  we try escape out of the reality by resorting to spirituality!!

  I never considered it an escape, I like reality just like it is.  Spirituality is in a sense just another thing to explore. Has anyone seen ,felt or talk to god

   Yes, yes, yes.   Even "been God".   And I can tell you "it" is the most fantastic, amazing, wonderful thing that is. even they did what benefit those experiences brought to humanity?

   The usual results of such awareness is a sense of oneness w/ all [living] things, thus one generally becomes more tolerant, accepting, loving, compassionate, giving, forgiving, etc.   "Life more abundant" some would say.    If you like that sort of thing. zin

Response:

Serious spiritual endeavor

hmmmmmmmmmmm sounds like an Ananda Marga member, r u?

Response:

I do believe there is such a thing like this called spiritual capitalism

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The concepts they uphold and believe in I just couldn’t accept as my own, such as God, reincarnation, astral projection, etc. So throughout my life I have practiced my spirituality in isolation, meditating, yoga, reading, living life to its fullest.

Response:

Of course where else but the USA would you find the notion of spiritual mixed up with self interest

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ditto! There are about 30 million of us in the US (about 10% of the population and growing). So throughout my life I have practiced my spirituality in isolation, meditating, yoga, reading, living life to its fullest.

Response:

There’s a certain slant of light, Winter afternoons, That oppresses like the heft Of Cathedral tunes. Heavenly hurt it gives us; We can find no scar, But internal difference, Where the meanings are. None may teach it any, ‘Tis the seal, despair – An imperial affliction Sent us of the air. When it comes, the landscape listens, Shadows hold their breath. When it goes, ’tis like the distance On the look of death. Emily Dickinson Newton’s Cat

Response:

Have you studied BUDDHISM?AS it is an ATEIST RELIGION, it may suit to you. Yes I have, mainly through books, and I do realize that it it’s true form Buddhism has no God or diety. However, reincarnation seems to play a central, if not THE central role in most Buddhist beliefs, and is something I do not believe in either.

I have heard one interpretation of reincarnation that didn’t mean "survival of death" in any literal sense. If you understand that you are not exactly the same person that you were yesterday and that tomorrow you are not the same person as today – then isn’t death just one more change after a lifetimes changes? You could say we a continuously reborn throughout our lives – and kama has its place in such an understanding. Not that I am a buddhist myself – but like you I think most forms of spirituality have something to offer. I suspect I am (and wish to be more so) what you might call a spiritual atheist. Good luck finding a community – I understand the desire. Mark. P.S. Have you thought about the Universal Unitarians? I have heard that they are a very open and liberal "church" , I dont exactly know how an atheist would fit with them. — Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau Member of S.M.A.S.H. (Sarcastic Middle aged  Atheists with a Sense of Humour)

Response:

Talking about waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out there type of atheist!

Response:

Check out a Unitarian-Universalist Church. As an atheist, I went for a while but stopped going when we moved.  I have been planning to start going again.

Response:

Forgive me for my ignorance, but doesn’t being atheist preclude being spiritual?  

I do not believe so.  All being an atheist precludes (in my case at least) is a belief in a god. How does spirituality function outside of a belief in the supernatural and/or of a god/religion?  

Easily.  When an Orthodox Jew sees something beautiful, something that affects him deeply, he says a blessing, thereby acknowledging in his mind that this thing, this situation emenates from his God.  In my case, I simply appreciate the thing for its own sake.  The feelings he and I share or the same, we just attribute them to different sources. Does this make sense?  Perhaps it’s harder to explain than it is to feel. I was under the impression that most atheists rejected all supernatural beliefs.  

I don’t think you can say "most atheists".  I think there’s to wide a specturm of personal beliefs under the umbrella of athiesm to generalize.  Some reject all "supernatural" belief.  I do as well.  I don’t think anything is supernatural, only natural no matter how amazing.  Some atheist might believe in magic, and just reject a god. http://www.sugapablo.com To email me, remove "Sugapablo-" from my email address.

Response:

Have you studied BUDDHISM?AS it is an ATEIST RELIGION, it may suit to you.

Yes I have, mainly through books, and I do realize that it it’s true form Buddhism has no God or diety. However, reincarnation seems to play a central, if not THE central role in most Buddhist beliefs, and is something I do not believe in either. Not that I don’t enjoy studying its teachings.  I enjoyed the Dalai Lama’s "The Way to Freedom" very much.  From all religions, whether you believe in them or not, a spiritual man can usually find things of value. You are not alone.

Thank you. http://www.sugapablo.com To email me, remove "Sugapablo-" from my email address.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although a spiritual person, I have never been able to find a place in any of the world’s religions.  The concepts they uphold and believe in I just couldn’t accept as my own, such as God, reincarnation, astral projection, etc. So throughout my life I have practiced my spirituality in isolation, meditating, yoga, reading, living life to its fullest. The only aspect missing from my spiritual life was a sense of community, which of course is one of the strongest reasons people turn to religion.  I find most people who have become "born again" or "baal teshuva" (the hebrew term for a Jew becoming Orthodox) is becuase they desperately required acceptance into a supportive community. I have to admit, being a complete athiest yet deeply spiritual, I have found very few kindred souls to share experiences with. So for years I learned on my own and I have found a most extraordinary path.  Now I’m ready to give back, to share my experiences, to help other who have questions, to teach my meditative methods, and help bring other like-minded people together so they can benefit from each other.  I will respond to all questions and help all sincere seekers. I have started a Yahoo group for those who wish to learn more or for those who are simply curious.  I hope that anyone who feels they can benefit from this sort of supportive e-community to join and encourage others to do so. As of today their are no members, this is my first announcement of the group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualatheists/

Dear Friend, Have you studied BUDDHISM?AS it is an ATEIST RELIGION, it may suit to you. You are not alone. With compassion PUMA

Response:

I used to be a complete atheist, until I found the only god I can truly know. The Inner Self… http://www.lieske.com/5e.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although a spiritual person, I have never been able to find a place in any of the world’s religions.  The concepts they uphold and believe in I just couldn’t accept as my own, such as God, reincarnation, astral projection, etc. So throughout my life I have practiced my spirituality in isolation, meditating, yoga, reading, living life to its fullest. The only aspect missing from my spiritual life was a sense of community, which of course is one of the strongest reasons people turn to religion.  I find most people who have become "born again" or "baal teshuva" (the hebrew term for a Jew becoming Orthodox) is becuase they desperately required acceptance into a supportive community. I have to admit, being a complete athiest yet deeply spiritual, I have found very few kindred souls to share experiences with. So for years I learned on my own and I have found a most extraordinary path.  Now I’m ready to give back, to share my experiences, to help other who have questions, to teach my meditative methods, and help bring other like-minded people together so they can benefit from each other.  I will respond to all questions and help all sincere seekers. I have started a Yahoo group for those who wish to learn more or for those who are simply curious.  I hope that anyone who feels they can benefit from this sort of supportive e-community to join and encourage others to do so. As of today their are no members, this is my first announcement of the group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualatheists/

Response:

Forgive me for my ignorance, but doesn’t being atheist preclude being spiritual?  

Your ignorance is forgiven.   Serious spiritual endeavor isn’t necessarily predicated on belief at all, it requires only sincerity and relentless honesty with oneself. How does spirituality function outside of a belief in the supernatural and/or of a god/religion?  

The so-called supernatural, the concept of "god," and the institution of religion are not directly related to spirituality, which is directly experiencing that which theists call "God" but is not actually separate from who we are. Or does being an atheist just mean that you refuse the idea of a personal entity of deity (i.e. the God of Judeo-Christian and Islamic belief) but allows for spiritual beliefs that do not rely on theism?  

You’re getting closer.  An atheist does not believe in an anthropomorphized diety, but certainly need not reject the evidence of reality that transcends (but includes) the everyday, measurable, familiar maya of incarnate life. I was under the impression that most atheists rejected all supernatural beliefs.  

Many of them do.  Many of them are fanatical rationalists, but certainly not all.  Btw, the term "supernatural" is an oxymoron, it just a more glamourous way to say "unfamiliar."         I guess, what I am asking is how do you reconcile your spirituality with your atheism?

I’ll leave that answer to the original poster.  I personally see nothing needing reconciliation, ymmmv. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —Jack Although a spiritual person, I have never been able to find a place in any of the world’s religions.  The concepts they uphold and believe in I just couldn’t accept as my own, such as God, reincarnation, astral projection, etc. So throughout my life I have practiced my spirituality in isolation, meditating, yoga, reading, living life to its fullest. The only aspect missing from my spiritual life was a sense of community, which of course is one of the strongest reasons people turn to religion.  I find most people who have become "born again" or "baal teshuva" (the hebrew term for a Jew becoming Orthodox) is becuase they desperately required acceptance into a supportive community. I have to admit, being a complete athiest yet deeply spiritual, I have found very few kindred souls to share experiences with. So for years I learned on my own and I have found a most extraordinary path.  Now I’m ready to give back, to share my experiences, to help other who have questions, to teach my meditative methods, and help bring other like-minded people together so they can benefit from each other. I will respond to all questions and help all sincere seekers. I have started a Yahoo group for those who wish to learn more or for those who are simply curious.  I hope that anyone who feels they can benefit from this sort of supportive e-community to join and encourage others to do so. As of today their are no members, this is my first announcement of the group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualatheists/

http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

Response:

Forgive me for my ignorance, but doesn’t being atheist preclude being spiritual?  How does spirituality function outside of a belief in the supernatural and/or of a god/religion?  Or does being an atheist just mean that you refuse the idea of a personal entity of deity (i.e. the God of Judeo-Christian and Islamic belief) but allows for spiritual beliefs that do not rely on theism?  I was under the impression that most atheists rejected all supernatural beliefs.  I guess, what I am asking is how do you reconcile your spirituality with your atheism? –Jack – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although a spiritual person, I have never been able to find a place in any of the world’s religions.  The concepts they uphold and believe in I just couldn’t accept as my own, such as God, reincarnation, astral projection, etc. So throughout my life I have practiced my spirituality in isolation, meditating, yoga, reading, living life to its fullest. The only aspect missing from my spiritual life was a sense of community, which of course is one of the strongest reasons people turn to religion.  I find most people who have become "born again" or "baal teshuva" (the hebrew term for a Jew becoming Orthodox) is becuase they desperately required acceptance into a supportive community. I have to admit, being a complete athiest yet deeply spiritual, I have found very few kindred souls to share experiences with. So for years I learned on my own and I have found a most extraordinary path.  Now I’m ready to give back, to share my experiences, to help other who have questions, to teach my meditative methods, and help bring other like-minded people together so they can benefit from each other. I will respond to all questions and help all sincere seekers. I have started a Yahoo group for those who wish to learn more or for those who are simply curious.  I hope that anyone who feels they can benefit from this sort of supportive e-community to join and encourage others to do so. As of today their are no members, this is my first announcement of the group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualatheists/

Response:

Ditto! There are about 30 million of us in the US (about 10% of the population and growing).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I understand your stance and applaud your honesty — you’re not alone! Although a spiritual person, I have never been able to find a place in any of the world’s religions.  The concepts they uphold and believe in I just couldn’t accept as my own, such as God, reincarnation, astral projection, etc. So throughout my life I have practiced my spirituality in isolation, meditating, yoga, reading, living life to its fullest. The only aspect missing from my spiritual life was a sense of community, which of course is one of the strongest reasons people turn to religion.  I find most people who have become "born again" or "baal teshuva" (the hebrew term for a Jew becoming Orthodox) is becuase they desperately required acceptance into a supportive community. I have to admit, being a complete athiest yet deeply spiritual, I have found very few kindred souls to share experiences with. So for years I learned on my own and I have found a most extraordinary path.  Now I’m ready to give back, to share my experiences, to help other who have questions, to teach my meditative methods, and help bring other like-minded people together so they can benefit from each other.  I will respond to all questions and help all sincere seekers. I have started a Yahoo group for those who wish to learn more or for those who are simply curious.  I hope that anyone who feels they can benefit from this sort of supportive e-community to join and encourage others to do so. As of today their are no members, this is my first announcement of the group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualatheists/ http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

Response:

I understand your stance and applaud your honesty — you’re not alone! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although a spiritual person, I have never been able to find a place in any of the world’s religions.  The concepts they uphold and believe in I just couldn’t accept as my own, such as God, reincarnation, astral projection, etc. So throughout my life I have practiced my spirituality in isolation, meditating, yoga, reading, living life to its fullest. The only aspect missing from my spiritual life was a sense of community, which of course is one of the strongest reasons people turn to religion.  I find most people who have become "born again" or "baal teshuva" (the hebrew term for a Jew becoming Orthodox) is becuase they desperately required acceptance into a supportive community. I have to admit, being a complete athiest yet deeply spiritual, I have found very few kindred souls to share experiences with. So for years I learned on my own and I have found a most extraordinary path.  Now I’m ready to give back, to share my experiences, to help other who have questions, to teach my meditative methods, and help bring other like-minded people together so they can benefit from each other.  I will respond to all questions and help all sincere seekers. I have started a Yahoo group for those who wish to learn more or for those who are simply curious.  I hope that anyone who feels they can benefit from this sort of supportive e-community to join and encourage others to do so. As of today their are no members, this is my first announcement of the group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualatheists/

http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

Response:

Although a spiritual person, I have never been able to find a place in any of the world’s religions.  The concepts they uphold and believe in I just couldn’t accept as my own, such as God, reincarnation, astral projection, etc. So throughout my life I have practiced my spirituality in isolation, meditating, yoga, reading, living life to its fullest. The only aspect missing from my spiritual life was a sense of community, which of course is one of the strongest reasons people turn to religion.  I find most people who have become "born again" or "baal teshuva" (the hebrew term for a Jew becoming Orthodox) is becuase they desperately required acceptance into a supportive community. I have to admit, being a complete athiest yet deeply spiritual, I have found very few kindred souls to share experiences with. So for years I learned on my own and I have found a most extraordinary path.  Now I’m ready to give back, to share my experiences, to help other who have questions, to teach my meditative methods, and help bring other like-minded people together so they can benefit from each other.  I will respond to all questions and help all sincere seekers. I have started a Yahoo group for those who wish to learn more or for those who are simply curious.  I hope that anyone who feels they can benefit from this sort of supportive e-community to join and encourage others to do so. As of today their are no members, this is my first announcement of the group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualatheists/

Response: