MUST SEE ON BUSH & the evangelical connection

Question:

Lil, it was PBS – you don’t need cable for that. Everyone has it – just with an arial. nope, I haven’t bothered to get cable. But I get the idea. Imagine people knocking on your door with a bible in one hand and a campaign pamphlet in the other. *shudder*

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – UPDATE – did anyone watch this?  What got exposed was all over the news here and on Howard Stern. "All they need are the evangelicals – to WIN." Not good. This is a MUST SEE – Frontline is having a show on Bush and his Jesus bs – the connection and the ins and outs of it. At least on the eastcoast USA, it’s on PBS on Thursday, April 29 and  called "The Jesus Factor."  It examines the connection between Abush’s  evangelical xianity and his policies and political strategies – they blend  seemlessly – the caption says. MUST SEE! — Satanic Reds – Dark Tradition, Sat & Tan Frames: http://satanicreds.says.it Bookmark http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds Michelet Sataniam and Witchcraft www.lylyth.org Dark Doctrines www.apodion.com/vad/ Guardians of Darkness http://geocities.com/go_darkness/index.html Fear is not the beginning of wisdom; it’s the end of intelligence. Cthulhu Mythos: http://.innsmouth.rules.it http://lovecraft.shows.it Life is a wonder to be lived; not a problem to be solved.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – UPDATE – did anyone watch this?  What got exposed was all over the news  here and on Howard Stern. "All they need are the evangelicals – to WIN." Not good. I watched it.  Yep, his father won with the same evangelical vote…pretty incredible.  The only two issues that concern christians are abortion and the death penalty.  As long as a candidate is against abortion and for the death penalty they have a very strong chance of winning the christian vote.  Pretty strange how that all works out. Well, it’s more than that – gotta kinda read between "new" lines to catch onto what it is – and it’s not just abortion, death penalty (I’m for that too and I’m voting Kerry) – it’s a LOT of things for instance – like how they "don’t want their children exposed to certain types of behavior" and if you read carefully – it’s very clear!  I’/m for freedom of choice (think of that NOT in terms of the abortion issue) and so are they.   I’m for freedom of association too – and so are they.  In fact, a HEAP of stuff they’ve done and want to do – a LOT of Satanists are for it – and that’s just SO strange. I mean, listening to Rush – and AGREEING with most of it – I have to say "hey, wait a minute."  Buchannan coming out with the only pro American worker, pro union HARD labor line?  WHAT?  But he did – and he was the ONLY one that did.  See how I mean?  

Not to say that all christians are idiots when it comes to the issues… but the vast majority of them will listen to whatever the christian channel has to say about a person instead of looking at all of the issues and deciding for themselves. I mean I will vote for Kerry and all, but do I think he is going to fulfill every word he is saying about improving America?  Not really…Im pretty sure he will do a much better job than Bush though. There is a LOT more to what they are about than what they SCREAM about so loudly – it’s what they don’t scream so loud about that they are REALLY about.

Like the Patriot Act?  Thats one they should be screaming about…however I truly think that most Christians DONT think…I mean if a candidate goes to Church, reads the Bible and quotes it during speeches then that will satisfy them…He must be a good man.  Thats how I see it…oh, and the Christian channel says he is a great man also…and so does the vast majority of pastors…he must be good. Again though, I didn’t like Clintons presidency either.  He screwed America over really bad himself…and Im not talking about his little affair…I could give less of a fuck about that.  I think you know what I mean about all the unamerican things he did…talked about that before. They weren’t happy with Bush senior because he wasn’t "one of them" in a lot of ways – not just the abortion thing.  Look at it this way – just WHO getting abortions are they all  up in arms about?  Ever notice that?  I do.

Well according to the show Bush Sr. wasn’t even an evangelical christian (and for that matter I don’t know if he was associated with any religion…missed it if it was in the show) It was his son…Bush Jr. who won him the first nomination because he was so popular in the evangelical community.  Also, it said that Bush had arguments with his mother about theology…interesting that most of his family doesn’t share his beliefs.  I thought all of them were the same.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, it’s more than that – gotta kinda read between "new" lines to catch onto what it is – and it’s not just abortion, death penalty (I’m for that too and I’m voting Kerry) – it’s a LOT of things for instance – like how they "don’t want their children exposed to certain types of behavior" and if you read carefully – it’s very clear!  I’/m for freedom of choice (think of that NOT in terms of the abortion issue) and so are they.  I’m for freedom of association too – and so are they.  In fact, a HEAP of stuff they’ve done and want to do – a LOT of Satanists are for it – and that’s just SO strange. I mean, listening to Rush – and AGREEING with most of it – I have to say "hey, wait a minute."  Buchannan coming out with the only pro American worker, pro union HARD labor line?  WHAT?  But he did – and he was the ONLY one that did.  See how I mean?  There is a LOT more to what they are about than what they SCREAM about so loudly – it’s what they don’t scream so loud about that they are REALLY about. They weren’t happy with Bush senior because he wasn’t "one of them" in a lot of ways – not just the abortion thing.  Look at it this way – just WHO getting abortions are they all  up in arms about?  Ever notice that?  I do. I remember the moron veep Quayle actually admitting he would get his daughter an abortion, but was working with his party  to overturn Roe vs. Wade. IOW, he  would make the choice accessible to her while making making it inaccessible to the common folk…..

Well, you have to look at what they did – they PUT IN supreme court judges that stood strongly by Roe vs Wade and pro abortion.  Heh.  What they say they’re gonna do – isn’t always what they DO.  I mean "between the lines" read about what they are NOT talking about – the republicans stand for something that a lot of people want.  Even Rush Limbough does – and I mean people that would be the LAST people to like the evangelicals – also like a LOT of what Rush has to say regarding other matters.  The democrats have stood for a lot of things that the people did NOT want – but under democrats this shit got shoved down everyone’s throat.  These things have NOTHING to do with abortion! I’ll give you an example.  Many retired people live on their meager pensions and social security – they might take in 700 a month and have to live on that.  They either own homes or rent homes and that’s that.  A Haitian woman (why is she here?) qualifies to get HUD assistance – they pay her rent, or part of it.  She is taking in 3 or 4 times as much money as that old person. Why does she qualify for HUD to pay her rent – and what the HELL is she doing here?  Things like that.  Neighborhoods going bad, worse, unliveable – people having to take every penny they WORKED HARD for and saved and move out like refugees from a war zone.  Meanwhile the people in the war zone are on welfare – their mothers are on welfare, their kids get it.  And it happens over and over again – repeatedly.  Crazy laws designed to FORCE people to be "together" when they live nowhere near each other – things like that.  The abolision – the absolute abolition of freedom of choice when it came to where a kid goes to school (the kid can’t go to the school nearest where he lives due to this shit).  The abolision of freedom of association – even in PRIVATE clubs.  That kind of thing tends to turn people against the democrats BIG TIME.  The abortion issue pales in comparison because they could ALWAYS leave the country to get one and they know it.  Or – they use protection and DON’T GET pregnant.  But on that thought – people getting more welfare money each time they have ANOTHER kid – that kind of thing makes people say NO MORE to the democrats – and it’s too bad they diverged away from their old labor stronghold and got mixed up in social and personal matters. The republicans are a REaction to all of that – but what they yell loudest about is DEFINITELY NOT what they are really all about.  One way to know them is to read their own forum-literature.  Like Family Forum stuff, heh. Council of Conservative Citizens newsletter.  VERY informative.  There is where you get to KNOW what they are all about.  For real. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

decreed: UPDATE – did anyone watch this?  What got exposed was all over the news here and on Howard Stern. "All they need are the evangelicals – to WIN."

Yes, I saw it. Not good.

Funny how evangelicals complain about how we are forcing our beliefs on them by passing laws that don’t disciminate against people yet they are more than happy with laws that force everyone to behave by their rules. I was particularly perturbed by the fact that the only faith-based organizations that have received money are Christian organizations. Any Jewish, Moslem, Buddhist, etc organizations have been rejected. It sounds like they are funding people in order to allow these groups to dominate the country, cuz they have all the money. The fact that my tax money is going ONLY to groups who want to take my rights away royally PISSES ME OFF!!!!!      War is Peace       Freedom is Slavery        Ignorance is Strength         Bush is President

Response:

decreed: UPDATE – did anyone watch this?  What got exposed was all over the news here and on Howard Stern. "All they need are the evangelicals – to WIN." Yes, I saw it. Not good. Funny how evangelicals complain about how we are forcing our beliefs on

them by passing laws that don’t disciminate against people yet they are more than happy with laws

that force everyone to behave by their rules. I was particularly perturbed by the fact that the only faith-based

organizations that have received money are Christian organizations. Any Jewish, Moslem, Buddhist, etc organizations have been

rejected. It sounds like they are funding people in order to allow these groups to dominate the country, cuz they have all the money. The fact that my tax money is going ONLY to groups who want to take my

rights away royally PISSES ME OFF!!!!! Oh yeah.  They have massed together to get shows off TV – and called that their free speech shit.  Twisted brained idiots. What bothers me too is that ALL Bush needs if the evangelical vote to win. Shit.  I was surprised that Jewish orgs got rejected – Jews are pretty united and powerful people! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      War is Peace       Freedom is Slavery        Ignorance is Strength         Bush is President

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – UPDATE – did anyone watch this?  What got exposed was all over the news here and on Howard Stern. "All they need are the evangelicals – to WIN." Not good. I watched it.  Yep, his father won with the same evangelical vote…pretty incredible.  The only two issues that concern christians are abortion and the death penalty.  As long as a candidate is against abortion and for the death penalty they have a very strong chance of winning the christian vote.  Pretty strange how that all works out. Well, it’s more than that – gotta kinda read between "new" lines to catch onto what it is – and it’s not just abortion, death penalty (I’m for that too and I’m voting Kerry) – it’s a LOT of things for instance – like how they "don’t want their children exposed to certain types of behavior" and if you read carefully – it’s very clear!  I’/m for freedom of choice (think of that NOT in terms of the abortion issue) and so are they.  I’m for freedom of association too – and so are they.  In fact, a HEAP of stuff they’ve done and want to do – a LOT of Satanists are for it – and that’s just SO strange. I mean, listening to Rush – and AGREEING with most of it – I have to say "hey, wait a minute."  Buchannan coming out with the only pro American worker, pro union HARD labor line?  WHAT?  But he did – and he was the ONLY one that did.  See how I mean?  There is a LOT more to what they are about than what they SCREAM about so loudly – it’s what they don’t scream so loud about that they are REALLY about. They weren’t happy with Bush senior because he wasn’t "one of them" in a lot of ways – not just the abortion thing.  Look at it this way – just WHO getting abortions are they all  up in arms about?  Ever notice that?  I do.

I remember the moron veep Quayle actually admitting he would get his daughter an abortion, but was working with his party  to overturn Roe vs. Wade. IOW, he  would make the choice accessible to her while making making it inaccessible to the common folk….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

UPDATE – did anyone watch this?  What got exposed was all over the news here and on Howard Stern. "All they need are the evangelicals – to WIN." Not good. I watched it.  Yep, his father won with the same evangelical vote…pretty incredible.  The only two issues that concern christians are abortion and the death penalty.  As long as a candidate is against abortion and for the death penalty they have a very strong chance of winning the christian vote.  Pretty strange how that all works out.

Well, it’s more than that – gotta kinda read between "new" lines to catch onto what it is – and it’s not just abortion, death penalty (I’m for that too and I’m voting Kerry) – it’s a LOT of things for instance – like how they "don’t want their children exposed to certain types of behavior" and if you read carefully – it’s very clear!  I’/m for freedom of choice (think of that NOT in terms of the abortion issue) and so are they.  I’m for freedom of association too – and so are they.  In fact, a HEAP of stuff they’ve done and want to do – a LOT of Satanists are for it – and that’s just SO strange. I mean, listening to Rush – and AGREEING with most of it – I have to say "hey, wait a minute."  Buchannan coming out with the only pro American worker, pro union HARD labor line?  WHAT?  But he did – and he was the ONLY one that did.  See how I mean?  There is a LOT more to what they are about than what they SCREAM about so loudly – it’s what they don’t scream so loud about that they are REALLY about. They weren’t happy with Bush senior because he wasn’t "one of them" in a lot of ways – not just the abortion thing.  Look at it this way – just WHO getting abortions are they all  up in arms about?  Ever notice that?  I do.

Response:

UPDATE – did anyone watch this?  What got exposed was all over the news here and on Howard Stern. "All they need are the evangelicals – to WIN." Not good.

I watched it.  Yep, his father won with the same evangelical vote…pretty incredible.  The only two issues that concern christians are abortion and the death penalty.  As long as a candidate is against abortion and for the death penalty they have a very strong chance of winning the christian vote.  Pretty strange how that all works out.

Response:

heh I’m Canadian. If it was on CBC it would be a different story. Besides all this was well known and publicized from the get go up here. Our media doesn’t answer to the Whitehouse. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lil, it was PBS – you don’t need cable for that. Everyone has it – just with an arial. nope, I haven’t bothered to get cable. But I get the idea. Imagine people knocking on your door with a bible in one hand and a campaign pamphlet in the other. *shudder* UPDATE – did anyone watch this?  What got exposed was all over the news  here and on Howard Stern. "All they need are the evangelicals – to WIN." Not good. This is a MUST SEE – Frontline is having a show on Bush and his Jesus  bs – the connection and the ins and outs of it. At least on the eastcoast USA, it’s on PBS on Thursday, April 29 and  called "The Jesus Factor."  It examines the connection between Abush’s  evangelical xianity and his policies and political strategies – they blend  seemlessly – the caption says. MUST SEE! — Satanic Reds – Dark Tradition, Sat & Tan Frames: http://satanicreds.says.it Bookmark http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds Michelet Sataniam and Witchcraft www.lylyth.org Dark Doctrines www.apodion.com/vad/ Guardians of Darkness http://geocities.com/go_darkness/index.html Fear is not the beginning of wisdom; it’s the end of intelligence. Cthulhu Mythos: http://.innsmouth.rules.it http://lovecraft.shows.it Life is a wonder to be lived; not a problem to be solved.

Response:

UPDATE – did anyone watch this?  What got exposed was all over the news here and on Howard Stern. "All they need are the evangelicals – to WIN." Not good.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a MUST SEE – Frontline is having a show on Bush and his Jesus bs – the connection and the ins and outs of it. At least on the eastcoast USA, it’s on PBS on Thursday, April 29 and called "The Jesus Factor."  It examines the connection between Abush’s evangelical xianity and his policies and political strategies – they blend seemlessly – the caption says. MUST SEE! — Satanic Reds – Dark Tradition, Sat & Tan Frames: http://satanicreds.says.it Bookmark http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds Michelet Sataniam and Witchcraft www.lylyth.org Dark Doctrines www.apodion.com/vad/ Guardians of Darkness http://geocities.com/go_darkness/index.html Fear is not the beginning of wisdom; it’s the end of intelligence. Cthulhu Mythos: http://.innsmouth.rules.it http://lovecraft.shows.it Life is a wonder to be lived; not a problem to be solved.

Response:

nope, I haven’t bothered to get cable. But I get the idea. Imagine people knocking on your door with a bible in one hand and a campaign pamphlet in the other. *shudder* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – UPDATE – did anyone watch this?  What got exposed was all over the news here and on Howard Stern. "All they need are the evangelicals – to WIN." Not good. This is a MUST SEE – Frontline is having a show on Bush and his Jesus bs – the connection and the ins and outs of it. At least on the eastcoast USA, it’s on PBS on Thursday, April 29 and  called "The Jesus Factor."  It examines the connection between Abush’s  evangelical xianity and his policies and political strategies – they blend  seemlessly – the caption says. MUST SEE! — Satanic Reds – Dark Tradition, Sat & Tan Frames: http://satanicreds.says.it Bookmark http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds Michelet Sataniam and Witchcraft www.lylyth.org Dark Doctrines www.apodion.com/vad/ Guardians of Darkness http://geocities.com/go_darkness/index.html Fear is not the beginning of wisdom; it’s the end of intelligence. Cthulhu Mythos: http://.innsmouth.rules.it http://lovecraft.shows.it Life is a wonder to be lived; not a problem to be solved.

Response:

This is a MUST SEE – Frontline is having a show on Bush and his Jesus bs – the connection and the ins and outs of it. At least on the eastcoast USA, it’s on PBS on Thursday, April 29 and called "The Jesus Factor."  It examines the connection between Abush’s evangelical xianity and his policies and political strategies – they blend seemlessly – the caption says. MUST SEE! — Satanic Reds – Dark Tradition, Sat & Tan Frames: http://satanicreds.says.it Bookmark http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds Michelet Sataniam and Witchcraft www.lylyth.org Dark Doctrines www.apodion.com/vad/ Guardians of Darkness http://geocities.com/go_darkness/index.html Fear is not the beginning of wisdom; it’s the end of intelligence. Cthulhu Mythos: http://.innsmouth.rules.it http://lovecraft.shows.it Life is a wonder to be lived; not a problem to be solved.

Response:

Judge Roy Moore, The Ten Commandments Monument, and WHO Is Really Behind Wanting the Monusment Removed V2.1 S_0229

Question:

Special note to international readers: What follows is treachery against Christians in America but rest assured similar forces are at work in your nation as well. Let the following be a warning to you all!

<Lots of junk deleted And while "Christians" rant and rave, and spew hatred because somebody moved their rocks, the world looks on and laughs. Imagine what would happen if followers of Jesus stood up and said, "Take down the monuments — we don’t need them. We’ll share our faith by our actions…. and that means not being obstinate, nasty jerks." When Jesus did the thing that bought our salvation, it was not using lawsuits, power or biligerance. And the people who hated him the most? The "church people" who had all the answers and forced them on everyone around. "Sledge-hammer Christianity," which seeks to have power and voice at all costs, has nothing to do with the message of Jesus Christ. -c

Response:

Special note to international readers: What follows is treachery against Christians in America but rest assured similar forces are at work in your nation as well. Let the following be a warning to you all! <Lots of junk deleted And while "Christians" rant and rave, and spew hatred because somebody moved their rocks, the world looks on and laughs.

You have a very valid point. TRUE Christians are not under the Ten Commandments anyway. I wanted to let the majority of Americans know from whence the attacks came. That is fair isn’t it? Imagine what would happen if followers of Jesus stood up and said, "Take down the monuments — we don’t need them. We’ll share our faith by our actions….

Another very valid point without any fault. and that means not being obstinate, nasty jerks."

They have a right to protest but they needn’t be nasty though I understand their "feelings". When Jesus did the thing that bought our salvation, it was not using lawsuits, power or biligerance. And the people who hated him the most? The "church people" who had all the answers and forced them on everyone around.

You just lost rationality. "Sledge-hammer Christianity," which seeks to have power and voice at all costs, has nothing to do with the message of Jesus Christ.

You make the same mistake I used to make many years ago. You mistake Christendom with (True) Christianity which Christendom abandoned totally around 325 AD.                                         Tavish -c

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Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Special note to international readers: What follows is treachery against Christians in America but rest assured similar forces are at work in your nation as well. Let the following be a warning to you all! <Lots of junk deleted And while "Christians" rant and rave, and spew hatred because somebody moved their rocks, the world looks on and laughs. You have a very valid point. TRUE Christians are not under the Ten Commandments anyway.

Why is the Torah part of the King James Bible, idiot? The Ten Commandments are in the Book of Exodus, the second book of the Torah. You’re not a Christian, anyway, so you don’t know jackshit about the subject. I’ve seen Catholic priests quote the Ten Commandments numerous times, so you’re just lying again.

Response:

When Jesus did the thing that bought our salvation, it was not using lawsuits, power or biligerance. And the people who hated him the most? The "church people" who had all the answers and forced them on everyone around. You just lost rationality.

I don’t think so. We often think that "great religiousness" is the mark of the Holy Spirit on a follower of Christ.  I would argue that the mark of Christ — love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control — bears very little resemblance to outspoken, power-oriented attitude adopted by many "people of God" under the old AND new convenants. To quote Robert Farrar Capon, "You can’t express love and power at the same time." And yet many who claim to follow Christ adopt coercive power [social, emotional, legal, etc.] as their main modus operandi. "Sledge-hammer Christianity," which seeks to have power and voice at all costs, has nothing to do with the message of Jesus Christ. You make the same mistake I used to make many years ago. You mistake Christendom with (True) Christianity which Christendom abandoned totally around 325 AD.

Please explain. -c

Response:

You have a very valid point. TRUE Christians are not under the Ten Commandments anyway. Why is the Torah part of the King James Bible, idiot? The Ten Commandments are in the Book of Exodus, the second book of the Torah. You’re not a Christian, anyway, so you don’t know jackshit about the subject. I’ve seen Catholic priests quote the Ten Commandments numerous times, so you’re just lying again.

Careful there, Joe, you’re not reading what Fred wrote. He never said it wasn’t in the Bible, he only noted that because of Christ’s sacrifice, the Law is no longer needed — it only serves to point out our sinfulness and drive us to Christ. This was what Paul was referring to when he tells the NT Christians that they are freed from the bondage to the law and they no longer need to follow the Jewish system of laws to be saved: "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." (Galatians 5:1). He states it even more clearly in Galatians 5:4 — "Those of you who are trying to justify yourselves by following the law are cutting yourselves off from Christ; you’re separating yourselves from God’s grace."  In other words, we’re no longer under the 10 commandments — we’ve been freed from the obligation. Excelsior!!  -Cloy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have a very valid point. TRUE Christians are not under the Ten Commandments anyway. Why is the Torah part of the King James Bible, idiot? The Ten Commandments are in the Book of Exodus, the second book of the Torah. You’re not a Christian, anyway, so you don’t know jackshit about the subject. I’ve seen Catholic priests quote the Ten Commandments numerous times, so you’re just lying again. Careful there, Joe, you’re not reading what Fred wrote. He never said it wasn’t in the Bible, he only noted that because of Christ’s sacrifice, the Law is no longer needed — it only serves to point out our sinfulness and drive us to Christ.

That’s nonsense. Jesus himself insisted on obedience to Jewish law. This was what Paul was referring to when he tells the NT Christians that they are freed from the bondage to the law and they no longer need to follow the Jewish system of laws to be saved: "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." (Galatians 5:1). He states it even more clearly in Galatians 5:4 — "Those of you who are trying to justify yourselves by following the law are cutting yourselves off from Christ; you’re separating yourselves from God’s grace."  In other words, we’re no longer under the 10 commandments — we’ve been freed from the obligation. Excelsior!!  -Cloy

Nonsense. I’ve heard Catholic priests quote the Ten Commandments and call it "god’s law’. I’ve also heard numerous Christians say the same thing.

Response:

Behind Wanting the Monuments Removed V2.1   S_0229 Special note to international readers: What follows is treachery against Christians in America but rest assured similar forces are at work in your nation as well. Let the following be a warning to you all! What follows is a pile of insane Reich wing gutter trash bull shit!.

Can’t refute it can you?                                                 Tavish         How First Century Christianity Was Treated by Jews: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=m1p5nv4es86j78p5dr5pe41l8pi3v… Research) V2.5  R_0925 http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=k11ucvc1j4hl6s7av6qpr9882esa9… http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=i31ucv4nvr6ehh6r2jgq8d7orrpfh…      The first "Holocaust" was not Gentiles (Nazis) Against Jews        BUT was Jews (Communists) Against Christian Kulaks!!!            How Later Christianity was/is treated by Jews: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=upe9kvor1pdvm2ifa8sfa0qfboa6u… is NOT a Valid Comparison V2.5 R_0821    Jewish Led Bolsheviks Scalped & Crucified Christians by Philippa Fletcher http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=34c17d0f.1410012285%40news.sm… http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=u626vv814v0dt9raqv17ede0h4536… http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=ncu5gvoc1nga0k933sgt0sbtglrv1… Holocausts Jews have waged against non-Jews and Jewish denial of their Holocausts against Christians/non-Jews: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=5rhktv483m9oofgqt8goir93o4pm0… Addition to Their anti-Christic Christ Denial anti-Christism Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Accounts Starting At $6.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com                <<<<<<<   The Worlds Uncensored News Source   <<<<<<<<

Response:

Special note to international readers: What follows is treachery against Christians in America but rest assured similar forces are at work in your nation as well. Let the following be a warning to you all!

What follows is a pile of insane Reich wing gutter trash bull shit!. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<<In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C.Sec. 107. – Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use [The fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. [I]n any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include – (1) whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes.. ((this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. – FAIR USE INTENDED)) Here is the latest (November 18, 2003) on Judge Roy Moore and who initiated the attacks against him: http://www.splcenter.org/legal/news/article.jsp?site_area=1&aid=42 (Link active November 18, 2003. Archived locally as: SPLCvsMoore) Ten Commandments judge removed from office MONTGOMERY, Ala. | Nov. 13, 2003 — Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore was removed from office today by the Alabama Court of the Judiciary for ethics violations stemming from his defiance of a court order to remove a Ten Commandments monument from the state’s judicial building. The nine-member court ruled unanimously (download a PDF of the judgment). http://www.splcenter.org/pdf/dynamic/legal/glassrothvmoore_cojjudgmen… (Archived locally as: glassrothvmoore_cojjudgment) "Justice was served today," said Richard Cohen, president of the Southern Poverty Law Center… Center attorneys brought the case against Moore, along with the ACLU <http://www.aclu.org/ and Americans United for the Separation of Church and State <http://www.au.org/, on behalf of three Alabama attorneys who felt the monument expressed state-sanctioned intolerance of religious beliefs different from those of the former Chief Justice. In July, a federal appeals court upheld U.S. Judge Myron Thompson’s ruling that the placement of the monument was an "extreme case" that "create[d] a religious sanctuary within the walls of a courthouse." Moore defied the court’s order and refused to remove the monument, drawing a crowd of supporters, including many far-right extremists, to the judicial building… <END Notice who the president of SPLC is? ANSWER: A historic anti-Christ! The movers and shakers at SPLC: http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?aid=38 (Link active November 18, 2003. Archived locally as: SPLCbyJEWS) Richard Cohen named Center’s president and CEO Oct. 22, 2003 — Civil rights lawyer Richard Cohen has been named president and chief executive officer of the Southern Poverty Law Center. The announcement was made today by Morris Dees and Joseph J. Levin Jr., who founded the Center in 1971. "Richard has a rare combination of intellect and passion," said Levin, who has been the Center’s president and CEO for the past seven years. "We have tremendous confidence in his ability to lead the Center in the 21st century." The Center’s board of directors chose Cohen as top executive after Levin decided to step down from the presidency. Levin will remain with the Center as a senior advisor and as a member of its board of directors. Dees will continue as its chief trial counsel… "Joe and Morris have created a dynamic organization that has been a force for justice and fairness in this country," Cohen said. "With the dedicated staff at the Center, I hope we can build on their long list of accomplishments." <END Photo of Richard Cohen from the above web page: http://www.splcenter.org/images/imglib/N/cohen_200×304.jpg (Archived locally as: cohen_200×304) Download/view while you all can! Not only did Richard Cohen of the Southern Poverty Law Center want Judge Roy Moore removed from the bench he is now seeking to have him disbarred! http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1113TenComm13-ON.html (Link active November 18, 2003. Archived locally as: SPLCdisbar) Judge in Ten Commandments dispute removed from office Associated Press MONTGOMERY, Ala. – Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, who became a hero to religious conservatives for refusing to remove his granite Ten Commandments monument from the state courthouse, was thrown off the bench Thursday by a judicial ethics panel… Richard Cohen, president of the Southern Poverty Law Center, one of the three groups that sued Moore over the monument, said the court and the Alabama attorney general, who prosecuted the case, were courageous. "They stood up to a popular political figure and said no one is above the law. We intend now to file a complaint with the Alabama State Bar Association asking that Moore be disbarred," Cohen said… <END More on "[T]he ACLU <http://www.aclu.org/ and Americans United for the Separation of Church and State <http://www.au.org/" who were partners in SPLC’s assault against Judge Roy Moore: http://www.aclu.org/about/aboutmain.cfm (Link active November 18, 2003. Archived locally as: ACLU_about) About Us The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is our nation’s guardian of liberty, working daily in courts, legislatures and communities to defend and preserve the individual rights and liberties guaranteed to all people in this country by the Constitution and laws of the United States. In 1920, when the ACLU was founded by Roger Baldwin, Crystal Eastman, Albert DeSilver and others, civil liberties were in a sorry state… Foreign-born people suspected of political radicalism were subject to summary deportation… <<Tavish comment: Those radicals who were being deported were Communists who if they had had their way there would be no Bill of Rights! The ACLU is on record as being a guardian of communists during the so called "Red Scare" and in fact the ACLU was founded for that reason– to protect communists! Factual proof is further down in this post. The ACLU is also active in our national and state capitals, fighting to ensure that the Bill of Rights will always be more than a "parchment barrier" against government oppression…. <<Tavish comment: If the ACLU is so much of an advocate for the Bill of Rights then why don’t they fight for the individual liberty of individuals to have private ownership of firearms? <END http://www.extramile.us/honorees/baldwin.html (Link active Novemebr 18, 2003. Archived locally as: XtramileBALDWIN) Excerpt Activist Margaret Sanger once declared, "The name Roger Baldwin and Civil Liberties are synonymous." Roger Nash Baldwin lived a life of activism and public service. As the founding director of the American Civil Liberties Union, he helped turned the nation’s attention to the protections guaranteed to citizens by the Bill of Rights… While in St. Louis, Baldwin grew interested in the radical political and social movements of the times. He developed a close friendship with the anarchist Emma Goldman and moved in elite left-wing circles… World War I ended, but the wartime climate hostile to civil liberties endured: a post-war "Red Scare" fostered political intolerance.. Baldwin and other reformers like Norman Thomas, Jane Addams, John Dewey, and Upton Sinclair recognized the need to energetically protect the civil liberties promised to citizens by the Bill of Rights… Baldwin backed a number of left wing endeavors and supported various United Front and Popular Front enterprises. He wrote about and visited (in 1927) Soviet Russia and urged that radicals and liberals in the United States join together to fight fascism, racism, and poverty…  <END IOW They were defenders of "reds" which they were! Roger Baldwin was a socialist! http://www.lib.unc.edu/mss/inv/a/Amberson,William_Ruthrauff.html (Link active November 18, 2003. Archived locally as: uncEDUbaldwin) Manuscripts Department Library of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill SOUTHERN HISTORICAL COLLECTION #3862 WILLIAM RUTHRAUFF AMBERSON PAPERS Abstract:          William Ruthrauff Amberson (1894- ), professor            at the University of Tennessee Medical School at            Memphis, 1930-1937, advisor to the Southern Tenant            Farmers Union, and trustee of the Delta and Providence            Cooperative Farms in Mississippi.                    Primarily personal correspondence relating            to Amberson’s activities as a member of the Socialist            Party…    Other topics scattered through the main body of the papers are the Socialist Party of Tennessee, the Communist Party in the South, the Llano del Rio Cooperative Colony of Louisiana, race relations, the conditions of the southern tenant farmers and southern politics.    Principal correspondents are Roger Baldwin, ACLU, 1934-1939… <END http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30337 (Link active November 18, 2003. Archived locally as: WND30337) ACLU – America’s Taliban Posted: January 6, 2003 1:00 a.m. Eastern Perhaps the most vivid and enduring visual memory of Taliban rule in Afghanistan is the image of the Islamic extremists

… read more »

Response:

Special note to international readers: What follows is treachery against Christians in America but rest assured similar forces are at work in your nation as well. Let the following be a warning to you all! <<<In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C.Sec. 107. – Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use [The fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. [I]n any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include – (1) whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes.. ((this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. – FAIR USE INTENDED)) Here is the latest (November 18, 2003) on Judge Roy Moore and who initiated the attacks against him: http://www.splcenter.org/legal/news/article.jsp?site_area=1&aid=42 (Link active November 18, 2003. Archived locally as: SPLCvsMoore) Ten Commandments judge removed from office MONTGOMERY, Ala. | Nov. 13, 2003 — Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore was removed from office today by the Alabama Court of the Judiciary for ethics violations stemming from his defiance of a court order to remove a Ten Commandments monument from the state’s judicial building. The nine-member court ruled unanimously (download a PDF of the judgment). http://www.splcenter.org/pdf/dynamic/legal/glassrothvmoore_cojjudgmen… (Archived locally as: glassrothvmoore_cojjudgment) "Justice was served today," said Richard Cohen, president of the Southern Poverty Law Center… Center attorneys brought the case against Moore, along with the ACLU <http://www.aclu.org/ and Americans United for the Separation of Church and State <http://www.au.org/, on behalf of three Alabama attorneys who felt the monument expressed state-sanctioned intolerance of religious beliefs different from those of the former Chief Justice. In July, a federal appeals court upheld U.S. Judge Myron Thompson’s ruling that the placement of the monument was an "extreme case" that "create[d] a religious sanctuary within the walls of a courthouse." Moore defied the court’s order and refused to remove the monument, drawing a crowd of supporters, including many far-right extremists, to the judicial building… <END Notice who the president of SPLC is? ANSWER: A historic anti-Christ! The movers and shakers at SPLC: http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?aid=38 (Link active November 18, 2003. Archived locally as: SPLCbyJEWS) Richard Cohen named Center’s president and CEO Oct. 22, 2003 — Civil rights lawyer Richard Cohen has been named president and chief executive officer of the Southern Poverty Law Center. The announcement was made today by Morris Dees and Joseph J. Levin Jr., who founded the Center in 1971. "Richard has a rare combination of intellect and passion," said Levin, who has been the Center’s president and CEO for the past seven years. "We have tremendous confidence in his ability to lead the Center in the 21st century." The Center’s board of directors chose Cohen as top executive after Levin decided to step down from the presidency. Levin will remain with the Center as a senior advisor and as a member of its board of directors. Dees will continue as its chief trial counsel… "Joe and Morris have created a dynamic organization that has been a force for justice and fairness in this country," Cohen said. "With the dedicated staff at the Center, I hope we can build on their long list of accomplishments." <END Photo of Richard Cohen from the above web page: http://www.splcenter.org/images/imglib/N/cohen_200×304.jpg (Archived locally as: cohen_200×304) Download/view while you all can! Not only did Richard Cohen of the Southern Poverty Law Center want Judge Roy Moore removed from the bench he is now seeking to have him disbarred! http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1113TenComm13-ON.html (Link active November 18, 2003. Archived locally as: SPLCdisbar) Judge in Ten Commandments dispute removed from office Associated Press MONTGOMERY, Ala. – Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, who became a hero to religious conservatives for refusing to remove his granite Ten Commandments monument from the state courthouse, was thrown off the bench Thursday by a judicial ethics panel… Richard Cohen, president of the Southern Poverty Law Center, one of the three groups that sued Moore over the monument, said the court and the Alabama attorney general, who prosecuted the case, were courageous. "They stood up to a popular political figure and said no one is above the law. We intend now to file a complaint with the Alabama State Bar Association asking that Moore be disbarred," Cohen said… <END More on "[T]he ACLU <http://www.aclu.org/ and Americans United for the Separation of Church and State <http://www.au.org/" who were partners in SPLC’s assault against Judge Roy Moore: http://www.aclu.org/about/aboutmain.cfm (Link active November 18, 2003. Archived locally as: ACLU_about) About Us         The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is our nation’s guardian of liberty, working daily in courts, legislatures and communities to defend and preserve the individual rights and liberties guaranteed to all people in this country by the Constitution and laws of the United States.         In 1920, when the ACLU was founded by Roger Baldwin, Crystal Eastman, Albert DeSilver and others, civil liberties were in a sorry state… Foreign-born people suspected of political radicalism were subject to summary deportation… <<Tavish comment: Those radicals who were being deported were Communists who if they had had their way there would be no Bill of Rights! The ACLU is on record as being a guardian of communists during the so called "Red Scare" and in fact the ACLU was founded for that reason– to protect communists! Factual proof is further down in this post.         The ACLU is also active in our national and state capitals, fighting to ensure that the Bill of Rights will always be more than a "parchment barrier" against government oppression…. <<Tavish comment: If the ACLU is so much of an advocate for the Bill of Rights then why don’t they fight for the individual liberty of individuals to have private ownership of firearms? <END http://www.extramile.us/honorees/baldwin.html (Link active Novemebr 18, 2003. Archived locally as: XtramileBALDWIN) Excerpt         Activist Margaret Sanger once declared, "The name Roger Baldwin and Civil Liberties are synonymous." Roger Nash Baldwin lived a life of activism and public service. As the founding director of the American Civil Liberties Union, he helped turned the nation’s attention to the protections guaranteed to citizens by the Bill of Rights…         While in St. Louis, Baldwin grew interested in the radical political and social movements of the times. He developed a close friendship with the anarchist Emma Goldman and moved in elite left-wing circles…         World War I ended, but the wartime climate hostile to civil liberties endured: a post-war "Red Scare" fostered political intolerance.. Baldwin and other reformers like Norman Thomas, Jane Addams, John Dewey, and Upton Sinclair recognized the need to energetically protect the civil liberties promised to citizens by the Bill of Rights…         Baldwin backed a number of left wing endeavors and supported various United Front and Popular Front enterprises. He wrote about and visited (in 1927) Soviet Russia and urged that radicals and liberals in the United States join together to fight fascism, racism, and poverty…  <END IOW They were defenders of "reds" which they were!   Roger Baldwin was a socialist! http://www.lib.unc.edu/mss/inv/a/Amberson,William_Ruthrauff.html (Link active November 18, 2003. Archived locally as: uncEDUbaldwin) Manuscripts Department Library of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill SOUTHERN HISTORICAL COLLECTION #3862 WILLIAM RUTHRAUFF AMBERSON PAPERS Abstract:          William Ruthrauff Amberson (1894- ), professor            at the University of Tennessee Medical School at            Memphis, 1930-1937, advisor to the Southern Tenant            Farmers Union, and trustee of the Delta and Providence            Cooperative Farms in Mississippi.                    Primarily personal correspondence relating            to Amberson

The Atheist's Holiday

Question:

I thought the May 1st celebrations across the old eastern block and USSR were essentially an atheistic celebration.  It was inspired, i believe by the communist governments.

May Day has traditionally been the labor holiday, dating from long before Communism came to power. The U.S. chose the first Monday in September to be its Labor Day, precisely to be different from the international holiday. (These holidays have nothing to do with religion, or the lack thereof.)

Response:

[snip] Oh yes, another one of those "parables" http://mwillett.org/atheism/footsteps.htm made up from start to finish. A lie to illustrate "a higher truth". The saddest part is that some people actually think such stories strengthen people’s beliefs and are a force for good in the world. Lying has always been a Christian tradition.

I think that the story was ridiculous.  I am also an Orthodox Christian.   Lying is not a Christian tradition, anymore than it is an Atheist tradition, or a Buddhist tradition.  People lie — even Atheists.  And just about every moral or ethical system, whether religious or not, agrees that lying is bad.  It is a challenge to your own honesty to have made such a comment. – Joseph — "One should guard against preaching to young people success in the customary form as the main aim in life.  The most important motive for work in school and in life is pleasure in work, pleasure in its result, and the knowledge of the value of the result to the rest of the community."         — Albert Einstein

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                                                                        JMJ The Atheist’s Holiday An atheist was quite incensed over the preparation for Easter and Passover holidays and decided to contact the local ACLU about the discrimination inflicted on atheists by the constant celebrations afforded to Christians  and Jews with all their holidays while the atheists had no holidays for them  to celebrate. The ACLU jumped on the opportunity to once again pick up the cause of the downtrodden and assigned their sharpest attorney to the case. The case was brought up before a learned judge who after listening to the passionate presentation by the ACLU representative, promptly banged his  gavel and said "Case dismissed!" The ACLU lawyer stood up and objected to the ruling and said "Your honor, how can you dismiss this case? Surely the Christians have Christmas,Easter and many other observances. And the Jews-why in addition to Passover they have Yom Kippur and Hanukkah…..and yet my client and all other atheists  have no such holiday!" The judge leaned back in his chair and simply said "Obviously your client is too confused to know about or for that matter even celebrate the atheists holiday!" The ACLU lawyer pompously said "We are aware of no such holiday for atheists–just when might that be?" The judge said "Well it comes every year at the same time—April 1st" "The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’" – Psalm 14:1, Psalm 53:1 HOORAY FOR THE JUDGE ! ! ! ! ! unquote Jim Carew sfo

I thought the May 1st celebrations across the old easter block and USSR were essentially an atheistic celebration.  It was inspired, i believe by the communist governments. Baring that, there is always the "Festivus for the rest of us!!"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                                                                        JMJ The Atheist’s Holiday An atheist was quite incensed over the preparation for Easter and Passover holidays and decided to contact the local ACLU about the discrimination inflicted on atheists by the constant celebrations afforded to Christians  and Jews with all their holidays while the atheists had no holidays for them  to celebrate. The ACLU jumped on the opportunity to once again pick up the cause of the downtrodden and assigned their sharpest attorney to the case. The case was brought up before a learned judge who after listening to the passionate presentation by the ACLU representative, promptly banged his  gavel and said "Case dismissed!" The ACLU lawyer stood up and objected to the ruling and said "Your honor, how can you dismiss this case? Surely the Christians have Christmas,Easter and many other observances. And the Jews-why in addition to Passover they have Yom Kippur and Hanukkah…..and yet my client and all other atheists  have no such holiday!" The judge leaned back in his chair and simply said "Obviously your client is too confused to know about or for that matter even celebrate the atheists holiday!" The ACLU lawyer pompously said "We are aware of no such holiday for atheists–just when might that be?" The judge said "Well it comes every year at the same time—April 1st" "The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’" – Psalm 14:1, Psalm 53:1 HOORAY FOR THE JUDGE ! ! ! ! ! unquote

Oh yes, another one of those "parables" http://mwillett.org/atheism/footsteps.htm made up from start to finish. A lie to illustrate "a higher truth". The saddest part is that some people actually think such stories strengthen people’s beliefs and are a force for good in the world. Lying has always been a Christian tradition. — Martin Willett http://mwillett.org/

Response:

                                                                       JMJ The Atheist’s Holiday An atheist was quite incensed over the preparation for Easter and Passover holidays and decided to contact the local ACLU about the discrimination inflicted on atheists by the constant celebrations afforded to Christians  and Jews with all their holidays while the atheists had no holidays for them  to celebrate. The ACLU jumped on the opportunity to once again pick up the cause of the downtrodden and assigned their sharpest attorney to the case. The case was brought up before a learned judge who after listening to the passionate presentation by the ACLU representative, promptly banged his  gavel and said "Case dismissed!" The ACLU lawyer stood up and objected to the ruling and said "Your honor, how can you dismiss this case? Surely the Christians have Christmas,Easter and many other observances. And the Jews-why in addition to Passover they have Yom Kippur and Hanukkah…..and yet my client and all other atheists  have no such holiday!" The judge leaned back in his chair and simply said "Obviously your client is too confused to know about or for that matter even celebrate the atheists holiday!" The ACLU lawyer pompously said "We are aware of no such holiday for atheists–just when might that be?" The judge said "Well it comes every year at the same time—April 1st" "The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’" – Psalm 14:1, Psalm 53:1 HOORAY FOR THE JUDGE ! ! ! ! ! unquote Jim Carew sfo

Response:

For consideration of the likelihood that Jesus was a mythical creation …

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...] I am assuredly not some fundamentalist bible thumper, nor even a Christian.  But neither am I an atheist. [...] Are you agnostic, non-religionist, muslim, follower of judaism, hindu, buddhist, deist, gnostic, or some other category you’d like to share with us? No Sir, I do not care to share that with you.  [...] Obviously, you have an active interest in the subject matter. Perhaps, your interest is more of a scholastic nature. Perhaps, you were once into theology at some level, and now you’re in an area of having been actively educated on such matters, but not predisposed to following your previous course.

Perhaps so . . . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your focus on debating with relioustolerance.org is interesting, but might I suggest you email them, in a courteous manner, and inquire on more details as to the statement you are seeking to refute. I’ve discussed matters with them before, and when in error, they’ve voluntarily corrected their mistake (said error regarded a C.E. / B.C.E. mistake). Might I suggest that if you discuss the matters of concern to you with them, that you do so in a civil manner, as that is much more likely to engender a response on their part leading to further clarifi- cation of value to all involved. Thanks for your consideration, You are welcome. – - – ~~~ Pro-Humanist FREELOVER  http://www.ghg.net/phf (Freethinking Realist Exploring Expressive Liberty, Openness, Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality) ~~~

Response:

[...] I am assuredly not some fundamentalist bible thumper, nor even a Christian.  But neither am I an atheist. [...] Are you agnostic, non-religionist, muslim, follower of judaism, hindu, buddhist, deist, gnostic, or some other category you’d like to share with us? No Sir, I do not care to share that with you.  [...]

Obviously, you have an active interest in the subject matter. Perhaps, your interest is more of a scholastic nature. Perhaps, you were once into theology at some level, and now you’re in an area of having been actively educated on such matters, but not predisposed to following your previous course. Your focus on debating with relioustolerance.org is interesting, but might I suggest you email them, in a courteous manner, and inquire on more details as to the statement you are seeking to refute. I’ve discussed matters with them before, and when in error, they’ve voluntarily corrected their mistake (said error regarded a C.E. / B.C.E. mistake). Might I suggest that if you discuss the matters of concern to you with them, that you do so in a civil manner, as that is much more likely to engender a response on their part leading to further clarifi- cation of value to all involved. Thanks for your consideration, – - – ~~~ Pro-Humanist FREELOVER  http://www.ghg.net/phf (Freethinking Realist Exploring Expressive Liberty, Openness, Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality) ~~~

Response:

[...] I am assuredly not some fundamentalist bible thumper, nor even a Christian.  But neither am I an atheist. [...]

Are you agnostic, non-religionist, muslim, follower of judaism, hindu, buddhist, deist, gnostic, or some other category you’d like to share with us? – - – ~~~ Pro-Humanist FREELOVER  http://www.ghg.net/phf (Freethinking Realist Exploring Expressive Liberty, Openness, Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality) ~~~

Response:

[...] I am assuredly not some fundamentalist bible thumper, nor even a Christian.  But neither am I an atheist. [...] Are you agnostic, non-religionist, muslim, follower of judaism, hindu, buddhist, deist, gnostic, or some other category you’d like to share with us?

No Sir, I do not care to share that with you.  Or you all.  Why is what I believe an issue? That is what the lunatic fringe, so-called "Christian" fundamentalists base their judgments on.  In these groups every day you can read otherwise intelligent, lucid people defending bilious blather and outright lies solely because one of their fellow travellers –fundamentalist theist and atheist — posted it.  They know what they defend is not true. Are you, Sir, making a deliberate attempt to emulate them?  Or are you the atheist equivalent of lunatic fringe fundamentalist so-called "Christian," i.e., the other side of the same militant fundamentalist coin? Sir, if you desire to be nasty, en garde!  Let the games begin . . . . If you wish to rationally and reasonably debate, that too is fine, Sir.  But bullshit is still bullshit regardless of who is manning the shovel. Allow me to me make a couple of points here, Sir.  I am not a scholar.  I am not a genius by any means.  I am not even terribly bright or smart.  But I do read a lot and I was taught well how to do research.  When you began this thread, you posted blatantly false information to try to score a point for your atheist agenda.  You failed because you committed the cardinal sin of research:  you believed your sources without checking their reliability, validity, and veracity, or even verity, to use your word.  If you find a fact in the course of research that dovetails perfectly with your agenda, that should be a red flag.  You should check and double check and triple check that source.  Then compare it with every other source and then go back and check it again.  Dishonesty, prevarications, falsehoods, lies, obfuscations, and evasions prove nothing but they do tend to injure credibility. To return to your question, Sir, what I post is not true or false or inconclusive or indeterminate or nonsense because of my metaphysics, ethics, epistimology, logic, or aesthetics.   Those are not relevant in most cases. In this conversation my philosophy is wholly outside the scope of the issues being examined.  Do you understand my point here?  I may have expressed it badly, but frankly cannot improve it at the moment.  At your request, Sir, I will elucidate further.  Or try to. Our current spat has to do with the extant, second century manuscripts of the New Testament.  My opinion is not terribly relevant here.  Neither is yours unless you care to post your vita and your vita demonstrates training, education, and experience in the fields of Classical history, Classical and Semitic Languages, and archaeology.  Does it?  Neither does mine.  That means we are discussing the scholarship of others and the physical reality of the evidence.  The sole issue to be decided is whether or not there are extant New Testament manuscripts experts have dated between John Ryland Papyrus 52 and the Egerton Gospel of 125 A.D. and codex Sinaiticus about 350 A.D.  You, Sir, boldly asserted that none exist, or rather your source did and you swallowed it whole and then regurgitated it.  I identified that as a false assertion and offered evidence with some minimal documentation accompanied by an offer to provide more.  The disagreement, it seems to me Sir, is settled not by your or my personal opinion, intelligence, skills, education, training, personal beliefs, or attitude towards deities.  Of the manuscripts I offered to refute your claim, all exist.  People can put their hands on them, smell them, read them, and analyze their content and structure.  Although there is some debate as to the precise dating, no expert that I am aware of currently and seriously disputes the dating of the manuscripts I offered.  I could be wrong.  My sources are over a year old and a lot can happen in a year or 18 months in these fields.  I invite you or anyone else to confirm or disprove my assertions.  But do it with evidence, Sir. Neither your atheist humanism nor my personal beliefs are in any way relevant to the evidence.  Nor is one’s sincere belief in Christianity, Judaism, or any other theism. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – - – - ~~~ Pro-Humanist FREELOVER  http://www.ghg.net/phf (Freethinking Realist Exploring Expressive Liberty, Openness, Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality) ~~~

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —  http://www.ghg.net/phf/disbelief/jesus_doubt_file.htm — or rather: http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01.html http://www.bede.org.uk/jesusmyth.htm The Jesus Puzzle (Top Posts – History – 061403)  http://www.ghg.net/phf/history/jesus_puzzle.htm  Ancient Salvation Cults (Top Posts – History – 061403)  http://www.ghg.net/phf/history/ancient_salvation_cults.htm Those assume a very late date for the gospels, which is really not warranted, especially for the Synoptics. The generally agreed on dates for the synoptics are from 70 C.E. (earliest, for Mark) to 100 C.E. (earliest, for John). On gospel dates and authors: http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_02_02_02.html  http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_john.htm  … All of the original copies of the gospels have been lost. We must rely upon hand-written copies which are an unknown number of replications removed from the originals. The oldest known surviving part of a gospel dates from about 125 CE. It consists of a few passages from an unknown gospel. Another ancient manuscript, a portion of the Gospel of John, is also dated to about 125 CE. Remaining manuscripts date to the third century CE or later.

Our friend, Pro-Humanist FREELOVER, did not seem to want his reply to appear in this thread.  So I took the liberty of copying my reply to and his defence of his ignorance and lies here.  What follows is also in the thread "An Atheist, or Humanist, Falsehood by Pro-Humanist Freelover."

In "An Atheist, or Humanist, Falsehood by Pro-Humanist Freelover", a poster calling itself

Why did you change the subject of the thread (to Re: Introduction to the Bible and Biblical Problems / Which Bible?)?  Embarrrassed by your lies? Ashamed?  Good.  You should be.  I really don’t believe I require an "Introduction to the Bible and Biblical Problems / Which Bible?" By the way, are you going to post my refutation of your ignorance and lies at that spiffy home page of yours in your http://www.ghg.net/phf/list_of_recent_posts.htm directory?  Bet you won’t . . . . but I will look in a few days.  I do hope that your web site contains more reliable information than your posts here.  Or are your web pages shot through with falsehoods too? Why did you snip the evidence of your falsehood?  Ashamed? Don’t care for public knowledge of your ignorance and dishonesty?   You posted the sillyass falsehoods that the Egerton Gospel is somehow "unknown" and that there are no New Testament manuscripts between Egerton and P52 and codex Sinaiticus. Your words are undeniable.  And undeniably false. Now answer this question truthfully, please?  Did you post those falsehoods from ignorance or were they deliberate lies? What say you?  Shall I post evidence of your ignorance and/or dishonesty in the atheism groups?  You made them look silly.  Your post was an embarrassment to your supposedly "humanist" and atheist dogma.  I consider myself a humanist, and your ignorance and falsehoods embarrassed me. [skipped Didymos' rambling post quibbling over oldest surviving pieces of that which eventually ended up as the Catholic and Protestant versions of what has come to be known as the christian bible.

Why do you attempt to change the subject?  By the way, your usage of the English language is incorrect.  In standard American English, the word "Christian" is always captialized, as are Buddhist, Hindi, Muslim, Jew, and etc..  Any educated person knows that. That "rambling post" is called presenting evidence to refute your lies.  Can you refute the evidence I presented?  I do not believe you are able.  At least to this point you have merely obfuscated.  (Go on, go find your dictionary and look it up.)  Or do you stand by your ignorant assertions? Do you persist in your dishonesty?  You do not know enough about these subjects.  Yet.  Maybe some day when you grow up you will obtain sufficient education.  Aim high. Do you know the definition of quibble?  You, Pro-Humanist Freelover, were wrong.  You uttered a series of falsehoods.  Of lies.  You posted bilious drivel.  You publicly exposed your ignorance of the topic when you began a thread concerning a subject you know nothing about and your dishonest treatment of the subject demonstrated your crooked character.  You got caught.  Please, do not try to wriggle out of it by changing the subject or posting more of the same blather.  Go read some real books by authors who actually have some expertise in the subject area.   Web pages are notoriously unreliable sources. What Didymos avoids addressing is the nature of the manuscripts actually utilized for the King James version of the bible, and where those actual manuscripts were derived from, and how many versions of ancient manu- scripts (in variance with one another, due to doctrinal differences) actually exist ...

You obviously are not familiar with my record.  Would you care to discuss the New Testament of Erasmus and the sources he used?  Do indicate which edition of Erasmus' you desire to concentrate on.  Shall we include a discussion of the Ximenes Polyglot Bible as a standard of comparison?   How about the work of Theodore Beza and Robert Stephanus?  I believe I do know just a little bit about "the nature of the manuscripts actually utilized for the King James version of the bible, and where those actual manuscripts were derived from, and how many versions of ancient manuscripts (in variance with one another, due to doctrinal differences) actually exist ..."  And actually, Sir or Madam. my little bit of knowledge far exceeds yours.  Do you have sufficient training, education, and experience to discuss the Greek grammar, syntax, and usage to criticize the translation of the King James Bible?  I believe you will find a series of threads I began in April concerning the translation errors in the King James.  My fundamentalist critics hereabouts seem to have missed the rather obvious conclusion that 17th century scholars probably would have not made the schoolboy translation errors in the King James, so the obvious alternative is the words were changed for doctrinal reasons. Are you as well qualified as they are? Go home and read a few books and come on back, and we will discuss this as adults from a basis of knowledge.  You are ignorant, but that is not fatal because that flaw can be readily corrected by training and education. Please, for your own benefit, obtain and consume healthy servings of both. I have addressed the manuscripts and the translation of these manuscripts into what we call the King James bible in hundreds of posts.  Do a news group search at google with Didymos and King James. In any case, it is reasonably obvious you have not the first clue concerning the history and criticism of New Testament manuscripts.  No one who has the first clue would have posted the nonsense you did post. ... Also, Didymos avoids addressing the fact that there are *no* original manuscripts, that the manuscripts found are hand-me-downs and in conflict with one another, all the way back to the Dead Sea scrolls, which in and of themselves are in variance with scripture from the Old Testament and in variance with New Testament spins on the Old Testament, causing the Catholic church to revise the bible, a multi-year effort currently underway.]

Why would I "avoid" discussion of something so well known and documented and which I have studied for some years?  Do you desire to discuss biblical manuscripts?  Do you know the languages well enough to discuss them, or will we be restricted to English?  Do you desire to debate some aspect of the Dead Sea Scrolls?  (I am at a disadvantage there as I loaned my translations and commentaries to my daughter.  I expect them back in a month or so if you are willing to forbear.) Anyone with the least familiarity with biblical manuscripts knows that no autographs exist.  Is this news to you, Pro-Humanist Freelover?  Did you just read this on one of your web pages?  I do trust it was more reliable than some you have copied. Pro-Humanist Freelover, you are free to criticize anything you choose.  But when you post absurdity and nonsense and outright lies and blatant falsehoods and bilious blather, I am going to call you on it.  You posted blatant falsehoods in your thread.  Admit it, retract, learn from the experience, and get on with life.  But next time, why don’t you do your homework before you post?  Then mean old people like me won’t embarrass you by pointing out your ignorance and moral turpitude. What is the point of taking up all this bandwidth by posting the drivel below?  Anyone with any education or training in the bible or the intertestamental era knows that stuff.  Don’t you have any original thoughts on anything?  Why are your posts mostly copy and paste jobs? By the way, I am assuredly not … read more »

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Salt

Question:

hi,   seems like since i started low-carbing i am more sensitive to salt then ever. if i eat salty foods my rings will get tight quickly and stay that way longer. anyone else notice this? it seems everything store bought or  restaurant tastes too salty too. on the other hand, vegetables taste so nice and sweet now.

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hi,   seems like since i started low-carbing i am more sensitive to salt then ever. if i eat salty foods my rings will get tight quickly and stay that way longer. anyone else notice this? it seems everything store bought or  restaurant tastes too salty too. on the other hand, vegetables taste so nice and sweet now.

You might not be getting enough water.  Water helps to flush the salt out of your body.

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What is the deal with salt on Atkins?,Is it bad to take any?.

Response:

What is the deal with salt on Atkins?,Is it bad to take any?.

Few things are good for you in too large doses. I’m not of the school that salt is bad. If I get too much salt, like getting too much arsenic, I believe it’s bad for me. I do, however, believe I can take a whole lot more of the first ;o) Salt is good for hydration and intracellular hydration. From what I hear and read (don’t have references) your body will be less likely to tear down a well hydrated piece of muscle than one that isn’t. In my head, I make this into less canibalizing if hydrated. If you’re worried, switch to some of the "healthier" salt. Don’t cut it out entirely. Good luck, Lars

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Interesting subject salt.  When I started this program, my blood pressure was really getting scarey.  I felt lousey but, I did not want to go on meds so I started this program and really had to watch the salty stuff.  I seemed to be very salt sensitive at that time.  Now, however, I seem to feel best if I add a little salt to my program.  I seem to need less potassium, calcium and magnesium if I add a small bit of salt to my diet.  My evidence on this is purely by my own observations and experience.  I’ve lately been trying sea salt.  My blood pressure (also checked by my doctor) is just fine. ConnieW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the deal with salt on Atkins?,Is it bad to take any?.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, exactly.  That’s what I was thinking about when I wrote what I said – but thought I would refrain from mentioning them.  Those links that you & Nichole posted for me the other week were like a lightbulb going on.  My poor old adrenals.  They’re definitely getting the bulk of my attention for the time being.  If I ever manage to coax them into functioning again, I will be very pleased.  The poor little blighters are exhausted, and I’m sure you know what that feels like. Sure do.  Feeling tired all the time, especially after eating.  Feeling scatterbrained, and unable to focus.  Poor short-term memory — after having excellent memory as a kid. Chicken & egg question: which comes first, insulin resistance or adrenal weakness? Good question.  And are they two separate things, or just two different angles for looking at the same issue?

    Either can come first.  My family history includes both Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia and diabetes – which comes first tends to vary by individual.     The whole endocrine system is interrelated, and it all effects each other.  Think of big intersecting circles – an increase in one item in one circle effects all the others.  Biochemically, you are a bunch of feedback loops.     This is why steroids are so bad unless absolutely needed – my father was diabetic for 2 decades, but never required insulin until after the first year on prednisone (which he needed due to emphysema – having well-regulated blood sugar is not useful if you can’t breathe).     My sister has been on corticosteroids all of her life due to adrenal malfunction and she must be tested regularly to balance her dosage as it effects everything else.  At times, she has retained water until she was so blown up that she looked like a cartoon figure, other times she’s slimmed down to nearly nothing and looked pale and wasted-away.  During childhood, sometimes her growth was stunted and other times her growth was fine but her bones hardened too rapidly – both overregulation and underregulation result in short stature due to these effects.  She was the second person with the severe salt-wasting form of her disease to ever survive childhood, the medical literature is full of references to her – and she gets the "biochemistry is just an excuse" crap from well-meaning morons on a regular basis.  She also developed diabetes younger than either myself or my other sister, likely due to her disorder.     Depression is also correlated to both blood sugar regulation/insulin sensitivity and cortisol levels.  Not only are there lowered serotonin levels in those who have committed suicide, but severely lowered cortisol as well.  It’s all interrelated.

Response:

I require quite a bit of salt, even in addition to eating bacon, cheese, etc.  Relates to the adrenal problems, AIUI.

Yes, exactly.  That’s what I was thinking about when I wrote what I said – but thought I would refrain from mentioning them.  Those links that you & Nichole posted for me the other week were like a lightbulb going on.  My poor old adrenals.  They’re definitely getting the bulk of my attention for the time being.  If I ever manage to coax them into functioning again, I will be very pleased.  The poor little blighters are exhausted, and I’m sure you know what that feels like. Chicken & egg question: which comes first, insulin resistance or adrenal weakness? The fun part is whenever I have my blood pressure checked; it always goes the same.  They say, "Hmm, very good."  Then they look at me — a poster child for high blood pressure if there ever was one: fat, white male who’s quiet (keeps emotions bottled up inside, ya know) — and say "Very good!" in surprise.  

<Snort  Know what you mean, Aaron.  My entire life, every time my blood pressure’s ever been taken, they pump it up *way* high, then let it down, looking more & more puzzled, then they say "Gosh, that’s surprisingly low, considering how fat you are".  I’ve never been offended by this, just quietly smug at confounding their prejudices Then if I’m feeling mean I tell them how I eat 4 eggs with pork and lots of salt every morning, and shake the foundations of their faith a little.

<snigger — Rosiebint

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Yes, exactly.  That’s what I was thinking about when I wrote what I said – but thought I would refrain from mentioning them.  Those links that you & Nichole posted for me the other week were like a lightbulb going on.  My poor old adrenals.  They’re definitely getting the bulk of my attention for the time being.  If I ever manage to coax them into functioning again, I will be very pleased.  The poor little blighters are exhausted, and I’m sure you know what that feels like.

Sure do.  Feeling tired all the time, especially after eating.  Feeling scatterbrained, and unable to focus.  Poor short-term memory — after having excellent memory as a kid. Chicken & egg question: which comes first, insulin resistance or adrenal weakness?

Good question.  And are they two separate things, or just two different angles for looking at the same issue? I grew up eating a better diet than a typical kid, but still not great from an IR perspective.  We didn’t have soda or candy around except for special occasions, but we ate a lot of bread, cake, and cookies.  Vegetables with every meal, but usually that included potatoes, and often corn and other starches.  A pretty healthy diet by American standards, but since I fit the IR and adrenal problem profiles, that probably set me up somewhat for problems once I moved out on my own and started subsisting on pizza, chips, alcohol, and Mountain Dew. I’d say the insulin resistance was there first for me, since I was never slender.  Even when I was in good shape playing basketball in high school, I always had a little extra belly and embarrassing saggy man-breasts.  So the tendency to store fat was always there.  It wasn’t until the later abuse with caffeine, alcohol, stress, and carbs that my adrenals gave out, and caused the symptoms I mentioned above. Aaron — Extreme Systems Consulting – http://esc.pike.il.us/ CGI, Perl, and Linux/Unix Administration

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I guess I assumed "salt’ and "potassium" were the same difference.

I believe most people think of sodium when they’re thinking of salt in the diet. CAD 2/94 LC 7/01 188/168/126

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Actually, I find that sodium *is* a problem for me.  Since I don’t eat bacon, cheese or processed nuts, but eat everything plain and unprocessed, I’ve actually found that I do get sodium deficient & need to supplement.  This surprised me, as I had always been told that there was no need to add salt to food as the food itself contains ample sodium.  YMMV in action.

Exactly! If it eat beef/chicken/fish/eggs and, lettuce, oil, and drink water, I have to add salt or I’ll be feeling poorly pretty fast! CAD 2/94 LC 7/01 188/168/126

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Exactly! If it eat beef/chicken/fish/eggs and, lettuce, oil, and drink water, I have to add salt or I’ll be feeling poorly pretty fast!

I require quite a bit of salt, even in addition to eating bacon, cheese, etc.  Relates to the adrenal problems, AIUI. The fun part is whenever I have my blood pressure checked; it always goes the same.  They say, "Hmm, very good."  Then they look at me — a poster child for high blood pressure if there ever was one: fat, white male who’s quiet (keeps emotions bottled up inside, ya know) — and say "Very good!" in surprise.   Then if I’m feeling mean I tell them how I eat 4 eggs with pork and lots of salt every morning, and shake the foundations of their faith a little. Aaron — Extreme Systems Consulting – http://esc.pike.il.us/ CGI, Perl, and Linux/Unix Administration

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Kris, Whether or not you need extra salt and potassium depends upon if you are on one of the ketogenic diets?  If you are in ketosis, one of the side affects is that the body does not retain salt and potassium and you will need extra amounts of both in your diet.  I think this a great benefit of a ketogenic diet.  Before LCing, I had a chronic problem with fluid overload that has now completely disappeared.  It makes TOM much easier! Most of the general press about salt is for folks who are not on ketogenic diets.  By the way, you are correct in that 2,000 mg per day of salt is the current recommendation for the general population (but if you are in ketosis, you may need more). Zoe

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I’m still confused that we need so much salt.  We’ve been told how bad salt is and I think I read somewhere that we need 2,000mg a day?  Someone mentioned when you’re dizzy ( as I get) to drink a glass of water with salt in it.  I tried that it seemed to help plus I ate some food.  Any comments?

Response:

I’m still confused that we need so much salt.  We’ve been told how bad salt is and I think I read somewhere that we need 2,000mg a day?  Someone mentioned when you’re dizzy ( as I get) to drink a glass of water with salt in it.  I tried that it seemed to help plus I ate some food.  Any comments?

Salt is added to so many things that everyone gets more salt than they ‘need’ every day. You can get low on salt through verious unusual conditions (heat exhaustion, etc.). Potassium is another matter. You can get low on it easily enough, particularly on a low carb diet, since low carbing has a diuretic effect. Easily remidied by sprinkling some salt substitute occasionally on a salad, etc.

Response:

Hi Kris I think you are talking about potassium. Salt should not be a problem on this diet, as bacon, cheese, nuts etc contain salt. Potassium is a different matter. It has been mentioned to drink a glass of water mixed with "no-salt" or "nu-salt", which is just potassium and a substitute for salt. I haven’t found it in the UK yet. We have Lo-Salt, which is 70% pottassium and 30% salt. If I don’t feel well, or get muscle ache, I usually have some of that. Greetings Sabine

Response:

I guess I assumed "salt’ and "potassium" were the same difference.

Response:

I guess I assumed "salt’ and "potassium" were the same difference.

Actually, you are generally right. ‘Salt’ is a general term applied to the class of chemicals which contains NaCl (table salt) and KCl (potassium salt). The fact that most people mean ‘table salt’ or ’sodium chloride’ when they say ’salt’ can confuse the issue.

Response:

Hi Sabine, I think you are talking about potassium. Salt should not be a problem on this diet, as bacon, cheese, nuts etc contain salt.

Actually, I find that sodium *is* a problem for me.  Since I don’t eat bacon, cheese or processed nuts, but eat everything plain and unprocessed, I’ve actually found that I do get sodium deficient & need to supplement.  This surprised me, as I had always been told that there was no need to add salt to food as the food itself contains ample sodium.  YMMV in action. Potassium is a different matter. It has been mentioned to drink a glass of water mixed with "no-salt" or "nu-salt", which is just potassium and a substitute for salt. I haven’t found it in the UK yet. We have Lo-Salt, which is 70% pottassium and 30% salt. If I don’t feel well, or get muscle ache, I usually have some of that.

I supplement throughout the day with Solo, which is 41% sodium, 41% potassium, 17% magnesium & 1% trace minerals.  I buy mine at Sainsburys. — Rosiebint

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Hey, Someone here said they used sea salt instead of the NoSalt.  I had used NoSalt but I never really liked it.  I picked up some sea salt (expensive!) and I like that.  It has potassium iodide (or iodine) in it. Gwendolyn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Kris I think you are talking about potassium. Salt should not be a problem on this diet, as bacon, cheese, nuts etc contain salt. Potassium is a different matter. It has been mentioned to drink a glass of water mixed with "no-salt" or "nu-salt", which is just potassium and a substitute for salt. I haven’t found it in the UK yet. We have Lo-Salt, which is 70% pottassium and 30% salt. If I don’t feel well, or get muscle ache, I usually have some of that. Greetings Sabine

Response:

And they called you all those names that Michael listed?  That is sad then. Connie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Connie,    Then I think your really lucky, i’ve never EVER started a conversation, have always sidestepped religious comments/themes, (because of the way I was raised), yet, i’ve been invited to share the beliefs of several different people.  From people who had come to my yard sale to people at work, once from an electrician at work.. Yet I noticed not ONCE Did they ask what I believed in.. JUST WAS TOLD WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN.  Mabey we might have agreed if it was a conversation.. But I Felt Harassed.. So I completely understand what Michael was saying. Yikes, where the heck do you hang out?  I personally don’t know of anyone who would say things like that unless maybe you instigated something first and then most people I know would just leave. Connie Ok.  As long as it is an opinion.  It is just that I  run into too many "chistians" who: 1.  Feel sorry me for not embracing Christ… 2.  Call me a Christ killer… 3.  Call me a murderer for believing and supporting  Pro choice 4.  Call me an atheist because I oppose any relegious objects in government buildings 5.  Take pity on the remaining 3/4th of the population of the world who are not christians… All the best. Mike How does giving my opinion make me on a crusade to change other? I could care less if someone is jewish, christian, buddhist, atheist or agnostic. Just an opinion Mike.  That’s what I like about this country – I can express those. Linda in Buffalo — Atkins since June 13, 1999 176/158/124   18 down and 34 to go!! Visit me file://http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/3939 (long name for a short page

Response:

Connie,    Then I think your really lucky, i’ve never EVER started a conversation, have always sidestepped religious comments/themes, (because of the way I was raised), yet, i’ve been invited to share the beliefs of several different people.  From people who had come to my yard sale to people at work, once from an electrician at work.. Yet I noticed not ONCE Did they ask what I believed in.. JUST WAS TOLD WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN.  Mabey we might have agreed if it was a conversation.. But I Felt Harassed.. So I completely understand what Michael was saying.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yikes, where the heck do you hang out?  I personally don’t know of anyone who would say things like that unless maybe you instigated something first and then most people I know would just leave. Connie Ok.  As long as it is an opinion.  It is just that I  run into too many "chistians" who: 1.  Feel sorry me for not embracing Christ… 2.  Call me a Christ killer… 3.  Call me a murderer for believing and supporting  Pro choice 4.  Call me an atheist because I oppose any relegious objects in government buildings 5.  Take pity on the remaining 3/4th of the population of the world who are not christians… All the best. Mike How does giving my opinion make me on a crusade to change other?  I could care less if someone is jewish, christian, buddhist, atheist or agnostic. Just an opinion Mike.  That’s what I like about this country – I can express those. Linda in Buffalo

– Atkins since June 13, 1999 176/158/124   18 down and 34 to go!! Visit me //http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/3939 (long name for a short page

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: Awe, poor baby.  Maybe move to Israel?   That way when that happens you : could have those mean ol Christians legally thrown in prison. Are those lion-free prisons? Myra Please direct e-mail to "myra [at] primenet [dot] com"

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Well, some say the rats are as big as lions LOL! Hugh PS, my apologies for getting a bit nasty on that post above!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Awe, poor baby.  Maybe move to Israel?   That way when that happens you : could have those mean ol Christians legally thrown in prison. Are those lion-free prisons? Myra Please direct e-mail to "myra [at] primenet [dot] com"

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Awe, poor baby.  Maybe move to Israel?   That way when that happens you could have those mean ol Christians legally thrown in prison. Hugh

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok.  As long as it is an opinion.  It is just that I  run into too many "chistians" who: 1.  Feel sorry me for not embracing Christ… 2.  Call me a Christ killer… 3.  Call me a murderer for believing and supporting  Pro choice 4.  Call me an atheist because I oppose any relegious objects in government buildings 5.  Take pity on the remaining 3/4th of the population of the world who are not christians… All the best. Mike How does giving my opinion make me on a crusade to change other?  I could care less if someone is jewish, christian, buddhist, atheist or agnostic. Just an opinion Mike.  That’s what I like about this country – I can express those. Linda in Buffalo

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Yikes, where the heck do you hang out?  I personally don’t know of anyone who would say things like that unless maybe you instigated something first and then most people I know would just leave. Connie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok.  As long as it is an opinion.  It is just that I  run into too many "chistians" who: 1.  Feel sorry me for not embracing Christ… 2.  Call me a Christ killer… 3.  Call me a murderer for believing and supporting  Pro choice 4.  Call me an atheist because I oppose any relegious objects in government buildings 5.  Take pity on the remaining 3/4th of the population of the world who are not christians… All the best. Mike How does giving my opinion make me on a crusade to change other?  I could care less if someone is jewish, christian, buddhist, atheist or agnostic. Just an opinion Mike.  That’s what I like about this country – I can express those. Linda in Buffalo

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This is about SALT? Well, salt aside, I guess the rest would depend upon whether you are following a Jewish low-carb diet, or a Christian low-carb diet. Mine for one is along the Non-Denominational lines… Ken — To reply delete the ‘1′ from the E-mail Address. ~~~  BigKEN – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok.  As long as it is an opinion.  It is just that I  run into too many "chistians" who: 1.  Feel sorry me for not embracing Christ… 2.  Call me a Christ killer… 3.  Call me a murderer for believing and supporting  Pro choice 4.  Call me an atheist because I oppose any relegious objects in government buildings 5.  Take pity on the remaining 3/4th of the population of the world who are not christians… All the best. Mike How does giving my opinion make me on a crusade to change other?  I could care less if someone is jewish, christian, buddhist, atheist or agnostic. Just an opinion Mike.  That’s what I like about this country – I can express those. Linda in Buffalo

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i use NOSALT and really can’t tell the difference! — its a commitment to change! rosie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Linda in Buffalo, Isn’t it amazing how a little salt can flavor things up! How does giving my opinion make me on a crusade to change other?  I could care less if someone is jewish, christian, buddhist, atheist or agnostic. Just an opinion Mike.  That’s what I like about this country – I can express those. Linda in Buffalo

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alt.support.diet.low-carb, Michael Masarsky Ok.  As long as it is an opinion.  It is just that I  run into too many "christians" who: 1.  Feel sorry me for not embracing Christ… 2.  Call me a Christ killer… 3.  Call me a murderer for believing and supporting  Pro choice 4.  Call me an atheist because I oppose any relegious objects in government buildings 5.  Take pity on the remaining 3/4th of the population of the world who are not christians…

These are the crosses we non-Christians must bear.   <big grin Brian Charles Kohn               (275/244/)259/258/175  Restarted: 7/6/99 "Hope, not fear, is the best advocate of action." (Remove NOSPAM from Reply-To address to send email.)

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: Ok.  As long as it is an opinion.  It is just that I  run into too many : "chistians" who: <snip Michael, You can’t change other people.  You can only change the way you react to them.  Think about that. As a Jew, I’ve run into every thing you’ve run into (and few you haven’t). I don’t react to them, and I have no problems.  I also realize that 99% of Christians I meet are *not* like that, and I, for one, do not blame the entire group for the actions of a few. Myra Please direct e-mail to "myra [at] primenet [dot] com"

Response:

Neither do I.  Just the ones who try to "save" me or get in my face.  Or the ones who bring it to the office. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Michael, You can’t change other people.  You can only change the way you react to them.  Think about that. As a Jew, I’ve run into every thing you’ve run into (and few you haven’t). I don’t react to them, and I have no problems.  I also realize that 99% of Christians I meet are *not* like that, and I, for one, do not blame the entire group for the actions of a few. Myra Please direct e-mail to "myra [at] primenet [dot] com"

Response:

Linda in Buffalo, Isn’t it amazing how a little salt can flavor things up! How does giving my opinion make me on a crusade to change other?  I could

care less if someone is jewish, christian, buddhist, atheist or agnostic. Just an opinion Mike.  That’s what I like about this country – I can express those. Linda in Buffalo

Response:

Ok.  As long as it is an opinion.  It is just that I  run into too many "chistians" who: 1.  Feel sorry me for not embracing Christ… 2.  Call me a Christ killer… 3.  Call me a murderer for believing and supporting  Pro choice 4.  Call me an atheist because I oppose any relegious objects in government buildings 5.  Take pity on the remaining 3/4th of the population of the world who are not christians… All the best. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does giving my opinion make me on a crusade to change other?  I could care less if someone is jewish, christian, buddhist, atheist or agnostic. Just an opinion Mike.  That’s what I like about this country – I can express those. Linda in Buffalo

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...] On the paleo diet in its strictest form any added salt is not allowed. Added salt is essentially as unnecessary for humans as are carbohydrates. My little girl of just 6 months haven’t (pr. normal health advice) eaten any added salt in her diet and she is just fine. We don’t _need_ it. Also, for the most part salt was not available in the vast amounts that it is today when humans evolved. Another argument that it’s not necessary and that it may be harmful (just like humans aren’t adapted to eating grains based carbs). These are articles of faith, not science.

Sort of. It’s the science of evolution and geneticism, although it’s not the kind of science that involves clinical tests. Anyway, if you have any of those available do send links. We do need salt for a lot of metabolic functions and how much we get in our diets determines how much we might need as addenda. Salt wasn’t available as a condiment, but it most assuredly was available in the unbled meats we ate millennia ago. And the seafoods. And the salt licks and salted soils that are still consumed in parts of the world.

Of course.  The subject I addressed was "added salt", and the levels available today are probably vastly larger than what humans evolved on. Salt can also cause some overeating, because naturally neutral foods taste "too yummy" with salt on them (think peanuts, pistachios, bacon and so on). I have a hard time with this one. It feels like the end of a rationalization… "I know we left late and were driving slowly and that’s why we were late. Oh, and we had a flat tire."

Despite your sensible feelings it’s still true. If it works for you, enjoy it. You don’t have to prove or defend anything.

Yeah, sure, whatever. This IS a discussion forum you know and it would be really dull if no one voiced their opinions in here. Another benefit of actually discussing things in here is that you get a chance to see your own opinions validated or disproven. Each of which is equally good as both are evidence of progress. –Vad

Response:

[...] On the paleo diet in its strictest form any added salt is not allowed. Added salt is essentially as unnecessary for humans as are carbohydrates. My little girl of just 6 months haven’t (pr. normal health advice) eaten any added salt in her diet and she is just fine. We don’t _need_ it. Unneeded does not equal "bad". Lots of things we don’t "need" – cars, computers, etc. You only "need" a salary of $10,000 a year to live. But $100,000 a year is a lot nicer.

That’s right. Most of the time, however, things work like this: if the organism has had access to and used the substance for a prolonged period of time it tends to be adapted to that environment. The whole carbohydrate problem is a precise example of this. Humans simply did not have access to high carb foods and hence didn’t eat them, and today — as a consequence of this — most people still cannot tolerate hi-carb in their diet. Carbohydrate is also another example of something that is not strictly necessary. Vad Paleo/Neanderthin since Oct. 2002 Eats meat, vegetables and fruit, nothing more, nothing less. (Most of the time)

Response:

Hi. One of the things I’ve noticed since I started using FitDay is that I eat way too much salt.  I mean I already knew I did… but seeing the numbers made me want to improve on that too.  Yesterday I finally had a day that was under 2000 mg. And today I feel like CRAP for the very first time since week one of LC’ing.  I’ve been feeling great. Is salt another addiction that is actually painful to break?? I thought I was just overeating it for the taste and if I made sure to get my water it wouldn’t affect how I felt. This sucks.

Response:

In our last episode, Mary said: Hi. One of the things I’ve noticed since I started using FitDay is that I eat way too much salt.  I mean I already knew I did… but seeing the numbers made me want to improve on that too.  Yesterday I finally had a day that was under 2000 mg. And today I feel like CRAP for the very first time since week one of LC’ing.  I’ve been feeling great. Is salt another addiction that is actually painful to break?? I thought I was just overeating it for the taste and if I made sure to get my water it wouldn’t affect how I felt. This sucks.

Salt is one of those necessary electrolytes along with potassium and magnesium.  You can try switching to a potassium salt to season your food, or take supplements of potassium and magnesium to see if they help with your fatigue.  But unless you have a salt sensitivity that raises your blood pressure, I don’t see why cutting salt intake is necessary. revek

Response:

If you are drinking too much water–which many people mistakenly do because they believe the myth that drinking lots of water leads to weight loss,  you may be washing out your electrolytes, hence you feel crummy when you cut your salt. There’s plenty of evidence that you don’t need to drink 8 glasses of water a day to be healthily hydrated. http://www.the-aps.org/press_room/journal/release8-13-02.htm I’ve lost significant amounts of weight over the past 6 months drinking 3-4 glasses of water a day (all my poor old damaged bladder can handle!) — Jenny 168.5/143/145  Achieved Second Goal! 9/1998 – 8/2001 and 11/10/02 – Now http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean How to calculate your need for protein * How much people really lose each month *  Water Weight Gain & Loss * The "Two Gram Cure" for Hunger Cravings * Characteristics of Successful Dieters * Indispensible Low Carb Treats * Should You Count that Low Impact Carb? * Curing Ketobreath * NEW! Exercise Starting from Zero http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/jennypics.htm  Before and After Photos

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. One of the things I’ve noticed since I started using FitDay is that I eat way too much salt.  I mean I already knew I did… but seeing the numbers made me want to improve on that too.  Yesterday I finally had a day that was under 2000 mg. And today I feel like CRAP for the very first time since week one of LC’ing.  I’ve been feeling great. Is salt another addiction that is actually painful to break?? I thought I was just overeating it for the taste and if I made sure to get my water it wouldn’t affect how I felt. This sucks.

Response:

Jenny, I am a subscriber that drinking lots of water is like the fountain of youth.  The more water I seem to drink the better my skin looks and the better I feel.  I guess there is always the other side of every subject. Heck there are people losing weight on carb only. Curt — 211/211/190 Started Atkins May 18, 2003

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are drinking too much water–which many people mistakenly do because they believe the myth that drinking lots of water leads to weight loss, you may be washing out your electrolytes, hence you feel crummy when you cut your salt. There’s plenty of evidence that you don’t need to drink 8 glasses of water a day to be healthily hydrated. http://www.the-aps.org/press_room/journal/release8-13-02.htm I’ve lost significant amounts of weight over the past 6 months drinking 3-4 glasses of water a day (all my poor old damaged bladder can handle!) — Jenny 168.5/143/145  Achieved Second Goal! 9/1998 – 8/2001 and 11/10/02 – Now http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean How to calculate your need for protein * How much people really lose each month *  Water Weight Gain & Loss * The "Two Gram Cure" for Hunger Cravings * Characteristics of Successful Dieters * Indispensible Low Carb Treats * Should You Count that Low Impact Carb? * Curing Ketobreath * NEW! Exercise Starting from Zero http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/jennypics.htm  Before and After Photos Hi. One of the things I’ve noticed since I started using FitDay is that I eat way too much salt.  I mean I already knew I did… but seeing the numbers made me want to improve on that too.  Yesterday I finally had a day that was under 2000 mg. And today I feel like CRAP for the very first time since week one of LC’ing.  I’ve been feeling great. Is salt another addiction that is actually painful to break?? I thought I was just overeating it for the taste and if I made sure to get my water it wouldn’t affect how I felt. This sucks.

Response:

Hi. One of the things I’ve noticed since I started using FitDay is that I eat way too much salt.  I mean I already knew I did… but seeing the numbers made me want to improve on that too.  Yesterday I finally had a day that was under 2000 mg. And today I feel like CRAP for the very first time since week one of LC’ing.  I’ve been feeling great. Is salt another addiction that is actually painful to break?? I thought I was just overeating it for the taste and if I made sure to get my water it wouldn’t affect how I felt. This sucks.

  There’s nothing wrong with salt.  The idea that it raises blood pressure is based on old, crappy studies done in the 60’s and 70’s. More recent, better controlled studies show no effect in most people. Only a minority of the population, dubbed "salt sensitive", show blood pressure rise with salt.  The "salt/hypertension" dogma, like the "saturated fat/CVD" dogma, lives on more due to food puritanism than any scientific proof.

Response:

Around here we only use pure unbleached sea salt. (available at the larger health food stores)  It makes all the difference in the world when I’m lowcarbing on induction levels…. I don’t feel tired and wrung out and my skin looks fantastic. I drink a LOT of water, so the unrefined salt helps to replace the things I’m losing. Tastes better, too. Happy Lowcarbing, Julee Gram’s Gourmet Cream of Flax Hot Cereal Made with whey protein, natural flavors and virgin coconut powder. Gram’s Gourmet Sweet Cinnamon & Butter Crunchies. (porkrinds)  Both available at Carbsmart & Netrition.

Response:

What did your reply have to do with her salt question? Angie 212/201/125

Response:

Is salt another addiction that is actually painful to break??

On the paleo diet in its strictest form any added salt is not allowed. Added salt is essentially as unnecessary for humans as are carbohydrates. My little girl of just 6 months haven’t (pr. normal health advice) eaten any added salt in her diet and she is just fine. We don’t _need_ it. Also, for the most part salt was not available in the vast amounts that it is today when humans evolved. Another argument that it’s not necessary and that it may be harmful (just like humans aren’t adapted to eating grains based carbs). Salt can also cause some overeating, because naturally neutral foods taste "too yummy" with salt on them (think peanuts, pistachios, bacon and so on). Vad Paleo/Neanderthin since Oct. 2002 Eats meat, vegetables and fruit, nothing more, nothing less. (Most of the time)

Response:

Salt can also cause some overeating, because naturally neutral foods taste "too yummy" with salt on them (think peanuts, pistachios, bacon and so on).

Do you know where I can buy peanuts and pistacchios out of the shell, without salt here in DK? (or even pistacchios in their shell without salt) — Michael Nielsen M.Sc.EE Music:   http://mp3.com/archon2 Website: http://www.archonia.dk

Response:

Is salt another addiction that is actually painful to break?? On the paleo diet in its strictest form any added salt is not allowed. Added salt is essentially as unnecessary for humans as are carbohydrates. My little girl of just 6 months haven’t (pr. normal health advice) eaten any added salt in her diet and she is just fine. We don’t _need_ it.

Unneeded does not equal "bad". Lots of things we don’t "need" – cars, computers, etc.   You only "need" a salary of $10,000 a year to live. But $100,000 a year is a lot nicer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Also, for the most part salt was not available in the vast amounts that it is today when humans evolved. Another argument that it’s not necessary and that it may be harmful (just like humans aren’t adapted to eating grains based carbs). Salt can also cause some overeating, because naturally neutral foods taste "too yummy" with salt on them (think peanuts, pistachios, bacon and so on). Vad Paleo/Neanderthin since Oct. 2002 Eats meat, vegetables and fruit, nothing more, nothing less. (Most of the time)

Response:

Do you know where I can buy peanuts and pistacchios out of the shell, without salt here in DK? (or even pistacchios in their shell without salt)

No, unfortunately not. –Vad

Response:

Is salt another addiction that is actually painful to break?? On the paleo diet in its strictest form any added salt is not allowed. Added salt is essentially as unnecessary for humans as are carbohydrates. My little girl of just 6 months haven’t (pr. normal health advice) eaten any added salt in her diet and she is just fine. We don’t _need_ it. Also, for the most part salt was not available in the vast amounts that it is today when humans evolved. Another argument that it’s not necessary and that it may be harmful (just like humans aren’t adapted to eating grains based carbs).

These are articles of faith, not science. We do need salt for a lot of metabolic functions and how much we get in our diets determines how much we might need as addenda. Salt wasn’t available as a condiment, but it most assuredly was available in the unbled meats we ate millennia ago. And the seafoods. And the salt licks and salted soils that are still consumed in parts of the world. Salt can also cause some overeating, because naturally neutral foods taste "too yummy" with salt on them (think peanuts, pistachios, bacon and so on).

I have a hard time with this one. It feels like the end of a rationalization… "I know we left late and were driving slowly and that’s why we were late. Oh, and we had a flat tire." If it works for you, enjoy it. You don’t have to prove or defend anything. Pastorio

Response:

one inner conflict resolved

Question:

What a wonderful experience that must’ve been for you, Diane.  I would love to be able to feel comfortable *somewhere* on a spiritual level.  I’m very glad that this has happened.  You deserve some "good stuff" with all of the sh*t that’s been on your plate recently. Nahanton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -in the midst of all the crises, it seems i’ve managed to resolve one internal conflict without realizing i actually did anything to resolve it.   spoilered so i can talk about general rel*gious issues.  no mention of g*d. discussion primarily about different ch*rches and belief systems.  some discussion of sp*rit.  no splats. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * as i’m sure often happens, we share different religious beliefs.  we have a christian, a jew, a pagan, some who don’t believe, some who have a mix of Buddhist and Taoist beliefs.  there may be others, but these are the ones i’m aware of.  a couple of months ago, Elisabeth, who is christian, was feeding me images that were christian in nature.  it took awhile to figure out it was her, and why she was doing it.  it seems she was in need of a place to go to worship.  but, more than that, as we began to talk, she actually was thinking of converting, to catholicism.   i was nervous about this.  i didn’t have a problem with the worship part…but i was conflicted about the conversion idea – if she converted, would she be converting the body or her spirit?  and what about Ariel?  she’s jewish. what if she wanted to convert, as well?  could she, after Elisabeth did?  could you be catholic and jewish in the same body?  and what did that do to me?  i’m pagan. nobody i talked to could offer much in the way of an answer to this, and i was afraid to go for religious counsel.  as i thought about it, i wasn’t sure why the conflict was such a difficult one for me, except that i’ve always been a questioner, and it somehow seems very important.  my old minister would say that was the jew in me. *smile* so…during the last couple months, i’ve been attending a UU church, with which my pagan group is affiliated.  it is earth-centered, open to everyone, accepting of everyone.  services draw from all religions, all cultures, all holy days.  one day, we may read from the torah, the next from the koran. one week, we may hear a sermon given by a christian priest, the next, by a rabbi, still the next, by a homeless man.  it is truly a wonderful place. and today, i realized quite by accident, that there is no more conflict about converting inside.  as a matter of fact, there is a push to join this church. -we- are comfortable there.  we -all- feel accepted there. wow. Ravensong

Response:

in the midst of all the crises, it seems i’ve managed to resolve one internal conflict without realizing i actually did anything to resolve it.   spoilered so i can talk about general rel*gious issues.  no mention of g*d. discussion primarily about different ch*rches and belief systems.  some discussion of sp*rit.  no splats. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * as i’m sure often happens, we share different religious beliefs.  we have a christian, a jew, a pagan, some who don’t believe, some who have a mix of Buddhist and Taoist beliefs.  there may be others, but these are the ones i’m aware of.  a couple of months ago, Elisabeth, who is christian, was feeding me images that were christian in nature.  it took awhile to figure out it was her, and why she was doing it.  it seems she was in need of a place to go to worship.  but, more than that, as we began to talk, she actually was thinking of converting, to catholicism.   i was nervous about this.  i didn’t have a problem with the worship part…but i was conflicted about the conversion idea – if she converted, would she be converting the body or her spirit?  and what about Ariel?  she’s jewish.  what if she wanted to convert, as well?  could she, after Elisabeth did?  could you be catholic and jewish in the same body?  and what did that do to me?  i’m pagan. nobody i talked to could offer much in the way of an answer to this, and i was afraid to go for religious counsel.  as i thought about it, i wasn’t sure why the conflict was such a difficult one for me, except that i’ve always been a questioner, and it somehow seems very important.  my old minister would say that was the jew in me. *smile* so…during the last couple months, i’ve been attending a UU church, with which my pagan group is affiliated.  it is earth-centered, open to everyone, accepting of everyone.  services draw from all religions, all cultures, all holy days.  one day, we may read from the torah, the next from the koran.  one week, we may hear a sermon given by a christian priest, the next, by a rabbi, still the next, by a homeless man.  it is truly a wonderful place. and today, i realized quite by accident, that there is no more conflict about converting inside.  as a matter of fact, there is a push to join this church. -we- are comfortable there.  we -all- feel accepted there. wow. Ravensong "If you feel bad, blow bubble stuff or watch the snails after it rains.  That always makes me feel better."                                     – Katy, of Ravensong

Response:

What a wonderful experience that must’ve been for you, Diane.  

*smile*  thank you, Nahanton.  it sort of snuck up on me this morning, like a tiny tap on the shoulder…hey, guess what?  we’re not arguing about this anymore!  and then i got to thinking about all the amazing things this place has to offer, and realized the -why-… I would love to be able to feel comfortable *somewhere* on a spiritual level.  I’m very glad that this has happened.  You deserve some "good stuff" with all of the sh*t that’s been on your plate recently.

again, thanks.  i’m thinking so, too.  well, maybe not deserving of good.  but deserving of less bad, anyway.  *grin* diane, of Ravensong "If you feel bad, blow bubble stuff or watch the snails after it rains.  That always makes me feel better."                                     – Katy, of Ravensong

Response:

Diane, So glad that you found someplace where you can *all* feel comfortable and accepted.  Good news indeed and I’m sure a welcome break from the drama happening in your life right now. *hugs* if okay – *sends more rainbows to bridge the darkness* Rainstar – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – in the midst of all the crises, it seems i’ve managed to resolve one internal conflict without realizing i actually did anything to resolve it.   spoilered so i can talk about general rel*gious issues.  no mention of g*d. discussion primarily about different ch*rches and belief systems.  some discussion of sp*rit.  no splats. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * as i’m sure often happens, we share different religious beliefs.  we have a christian, a jew, a pagan, some who don’t believe, some who have a mix of Buddhist and Taoist beliefs.  there may be others, but these are the ones i’m aware of.  a couple of months ago, Elisabeth, who is christian, was feeding me images that were christian in nature.  it took awhile to figure out it was her, and why she was doing it.  it seems she was in need of a place to go to worship.  but, more than that, as we began to talk, she actually was thinking of converting, to catholicism.   i was nervous about this.  i didn’t have a problem with the worship part…but i was conflicted about the conversion idea – if she converted, would she be converting the body or her spirit?  and what about Ariel?  she’s jewish.  what if she wanted to convert, as well?  could she, after Elisabeth did?  could you be catholic and jewish in the same body?  and what did that do to me?  i’m pagan. nobody i talked to could offer much in the way of an answer to this, and i was afraid to go for religious counsel.  as i thought about it, i wasn’t sure why the conflict was such a difficult one for me, except that i’ve always been a questioner, and it somehow seems very important.  my old minister would say that was the jew in me. *smile* so…during the last couple months, i’ve been attending a UU church, with which my pagan group is affiliated.  it is earth-centered, open to everyone, accepting of everyone.  services draw from all religions, all cultures, all holy days.  one day, we may read from the torah, the next from the koran.  one week, we may hear a sermon given by a christian priest, the next, by a rabbi, still the next, by a homeless man.  it is truly a wonderful place. and today, i realized quite by accident, that there is no more conflict about converting inside.  as a matter of fact, there is a push to join this church. -we- are comfortable there.  we -all- feel accepted there. wow. Ravensong "If you feel bad, blow bubble stuff or watch the snails after it rains.  That always makes me feel better."                                     – Katy, of Ravensong

– To e-mail remove extra from address — For more information about this NNTP posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

Response:

i’m glad that you’ve found some resoltuiontn, Ravensonsg would tahtnthenwhle wolrd could find that same sort of resolutlions guess

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – in the midst of all the crises, it seems i’ve managed to resolve one internal conflict without realizing i actually did anything to resolve it. spoilered so i can talk about general rel*gious issues.  no mention of g*d. discussion primarily about different ch*rches and belief systems. some discussion of sp*rit.  no splats. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * as i’m sure often happens, we share different religious beliefs.  we have a christian, a jew, a pagan, some who don’t believe, some who have a mix of Buddhist and Taoist beliefs.  there may be others, but these are the ones i’m aware of.  a couple of months ago, Elisabeth, who is christian, was feeding me images that were christian in nature.  it took awhile to figure out it was her, and why she was doing it.  it seems she was in need of a place to go to worship.  but, more than that, as we began to talk, she actually was thinking of converting, to catholicism. i was nervous about this.  i didn’t have a problem with the worship part…but i was conflicted about the conversion idea – if she converted, would she be converting the body or her spirit?  and what about Ariel?  she’s jewish.  what if she wanted to convert, as well?  could she, after Elisabeth did? could you be catholic and jewish in the same body?  and what did that do to me? i’m pagan. nobody i talked to could offer much in the way of an answer to this, and i was afraid to go for religious counsel.  as i thought about it, i wasn’t sure why the conflict was such a difficult one for me, except that i’ve always been a questioner, and it somehow seems very important.  my old minister would say that was the jew in me. *smile* so…during the last couple months, i’ve been attending a UU church, with which my pagan group is affiliated.  it is earth-centered, open to everyone, accepting of everyone.  services draw from all religions, all cultures, all holy days.  one day, we may read from the torah, the next from the koran.  one week, we may hear a sermon given by a christian priest, the next, by a rabbi, still the next, by a homeless man.  it is truly a wonderful place. and today, i realized quite by accident, that there is no more conflict about converting inside.  as a matter of fact, there is a push to join this church. -we- are comfortable there.  we -all- feel accepted there. wow. Ravensong "If you feel bad, blow bubble stuff or watch the snails after it rains.  That always makes me feel better."                                     – Katy, of Ravensong

– For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

::: Brother Yeats and the Little People :::

Question:

Hubbard appeared to be very insane.  But how do you explain his followers?  Does it follow that Scientology attracts insane people, however you define insane? according to one article i’ve read, some of the techniques for self-exploration that the scientologists use can actually provoke psychosis.  so if you aren’t insane when you join, you will be eventually. ~ pope squidward ~

I read one of those articles, and I think the one I read was authored by Hubbard’s son.  Anyway, you make a really good point.  It’s a con-job.   _______   _            __  ___             __    / ___/ /  (_)  _____   /  |/  /_ _____  ___/ /__ / /__/ _ / / |/ / -_) / /|_/ / // / _ / _  / -_)                              /___/                 "For true opinions, as long as they remain, are a fine thing and all they do is good, but they are not willing to remain long, and they escape from a man’s mind, so that they are not worth much until one ties them down by an account of the reason why….After they are tied down, in the first place they become knowledge, and then they remain in place.  This is why knowledge is prized higher than correct opinion, and knowledge differs from correct opinion in being tied down…" — Plato, Meno 98a

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Blue, I studied Yeats years ago without leraning any of this. Isn’t that odd? Not really.  Just as "history is always written by the victors," so any scholarly source in this "scientifically enlightened" age might be compelled to accidentally leave out portions which they might deem antiquated, superstitious, nonsensical, etc. To this day there are still many who remain unaware of Scientology’s L. Ron Hubbard’s connections to both Aleister Crowley and Pasadena J.P.L.’s Jack Parsons.  In fact, despite the fact that many of the locals used to offhandedly joke about JPL being an acronym for "Jack Parsons’ Lab," very few are evenly remotely aware of his other side — that of a Thelemic Mystic and OTO Initiate.  Rocket Scientists, you psee, are very Scientific and therefore not at all prone to such silly flights of fancy [he said without a trace of irony in his voice]. Yeah.  What he said. I found all of these facts, but typical of anything you have to really study something from all sources available to even begin to get a somewhat well rounded accurate picture.  There are sources that discuss both Yeats occult ties and Hubbards and Parsons stuff, but certainly not every one. Certainly not.  Especially University profs. I’ve always found Parsons very interesting. Hubbard I just find insane.  ( The *bad* insane.  LOL) Hubbard appeared to be very insane.  But how do you explain his followers?  Does it follow that Scientology attracts insane people, however you define insane? If nothing else, it’s amusing to note the birth, evolution and flourishing of any religious or quasi-religious Belief System (for the sake of brevity alone we can shorten the phrase Belief System to the acronym BS for the remainder of this thread).

How appropriate! Walking around downtown San Diego here, there is a HUGE edifice constructed for the Hubbardian Scientological cadre.  

Yes, I’ve seen it.  Reminds me of the one in L.A., S.F., etc… It is very substantial, modern looking, quite large and equipped with a parking lot usually quite full of expensive cars.  Oddly, on the same lot there is an older rather gothic looking structure which is evidently some sort of Hubbardian quasi-Masonic Lodge … graphically and architecturally linking the two ostensibly disparate aspects of that particular BS, although it could be reasonably well argued, I should think, that scientology — as a composite etymological amalgam of Science and Theology — is not at all unlike the late cereal GrapeNuts(tm) which is, of course, neither grapes nor nuts.

Quite a misnomer. In any event, it’s quite amusing and generally evokes a rather hearty chuckle as we stroll past it Monday evenings on the way to the evening feed at 3rd and Ash.  I mean, if those devout followers had ANY idea what their founder was truly like or how patently absurd the entire BS is, they too would marvel over just how easy it is for any old trickster (cf: Jehovah or any of the other custodial controller gods and their associated BS) to start up an absurd BS which is evidently guaranteed to pick up countless lemming-like sheep proselytes as it gains it’s own skewed consciousness momentum.

Of course, they won’t listen, Blue.  These people are only interested in a quick fix. No, it’s a damn shame there are not more devout disciples of THE ONE TRUE BELIEF SYSTEM OF PLANET EARTH:                       -=:::[ B:.B:. ]:::=-                             -=oOo=-              The Sublime Lodge of the Blue Brethren              Sacerdotal Knights of National Security    E Pluribus Caeruleus — "Out of many, That Which Is BLUE." http://www.noveltynet.org/content/paranormal/www.brotherblue.org/

You sure this isn’t a BS, Blue?  :)   _______   _            __  ___             __    / ___/ /  (_)  _____   /  |/  /_ _____  ___/ /__ / /__/ _ / / |/ / -_) / /|_/ / // / _ / _  / -_)                              /___/                 "For true opinions, as long as they remain, are a fine thing and all they do is good, but they are not willing to remain long, and they escape from a man’s mind, so that they are not worth much until one ties them down by an account of the reason why….After they are tied down, in the first place they become knowledge, and then they remain in place.  This is why knowledge is prized higher than correct opinion, and knowledge differs from correct opinion in being tied down…" — Plato, Meno 98a

Response:

By the by, what do you make of Phillip K. Dick, Brother Blue? Or Chive.

I think Blue knows far more about Mr. Dick than I do, but I am aware of the similarities between his "contactee" experiences and those of many others, including John Lilly.  IIRC, Lilly’s ECCO and Dick’s contacts were the same or similar.  There’s something about Robert Anton Wilson here, too, but I can’t remember.  There’s some kind of connection between the three of them.  Hopefully Blue will chime in here.   _______   _            __  ___             __    / ___/ /  (_)  _____   /  |/  /_ _____  ___/ /__ / /__/ _ / / |/ / -_) / /|_/ / // / _ / _  / -_)                              /___/                 "For true opinions, as long as they remain, are a fine thing and all they do is good, but they are not willing to remain long, and they escape from a man’s mind, so that they are not worth much until one ties them down by an account of the reason why….After they are tied down, in the first place they become knowledge, and then they remain in place.  This is why knowledge is prized higher than correct opinion, and knowledge differs from correct opinion in being tied down…" — Plato, Meno 98a

Response:

Hubbard appeared to be very insane.  But how do you explain his followers?  Does it follow that Scientology attracts insane people, however you define insane?

according to one article i’ve read, some of the techniques for self-exploration that the scientologists use can actually provoke psychosis.  so if you aren’t insane when you join, you will be eventually. ~ pope squidward ~

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Blue, I studied Yeats years ago without leraning any of this. Isn’t that odd? Not really.  Just as "history is always written by the victors," so any scholarly source in this "scientifically enlightened" age might be compelled to accidentally leave out portions which they might deem antiquated, superstitious, nonsensical, etc. To this day there are still many who remain unaware of Scientology’s L. Ron Hubbard’s connections to both Aleister Crowley and Pasadena J.P.L.’s Jack Parsons.  In fact, despite the fact that many of the locals used to offhandedly joke about JPL being an acronym for "Jack Parsons’ Lab," very few are evenly remotely aware of his other side — that of a Thelemic Mystic and OTO Initiate.  Rocket Scientists, you psee, are very Scientific and therefore not at all prone to such silly flights of fancy [he said without a trace of irony in his voice]. Yeah.  What he said. I found all of these facts, but typical of anything you have to really study something from all sources available to even begin to get a somewhat well rounded accurate picture.  There are sources that discuss both Yeats occult ties and Hubbards and Parsons stuff, but certainly not every one. Certainly not.  Especially University profs. I’ve always found Parsons very interesting. Hubbard I just find insane.  ( The *bad* insane.  LOL) Hubbard appeared to be very insane.  But how do you explain his followers?  Does it follow that Scientology attracts insane people, however you define insane?

If nothing else, it’s amusing to note the birth, evolution and flourishing of any religious or quasi-religious Belief System (for the sake of brevity alone we can shorten the phrase Belief System to the acronym BS for the remainder of this thread). Walking around downtown San Diego here, there is a HUGE edifice constructed for the Hubbardian Scientological cadre.  It is very substantial, modern looking, quite large and equipped with a parking lot usually quite full of expensive cars.  Oddly, on the same lot there is an older rather gothic looking structure which is evidently some sort of Hubbardian quasi-Masonic Lodge … graphically and architecturally linking the two ostensibly disparate aspects of that particular BS, although it could be reasonably well argued, I should think, that scientology — as a composite etymological amalgam of Science and Theology — is not at all unlike the late cereal GrapeNuts(tm) which is, of course, neither grapes nor nuts. In any event, it’s quite amusing and generally evokes a rather hearty chuckle as we stroll past it Monday evenings on the way to the evening feed at 3rd and Ash.  I mean, if those devout followers had ANY idea what their founder was truly like or how patently absurd the entire BS is, they too would marvel over just how easy it is for any old trickster (cf: Jehovah or any of the other custodial controller gods and their associated BS) to start up an absurd BS which is evidently guaranteed to pick up countless lemming-like sheep proselytes as it gains it’s own skewed consciousness momentum. No, it’s a damn shame there are not more devout disciples of THE ONE TRUE BELIEF SYSTEM OF PLANET EARTH:                       -=:::[ B:.B:. ]:::=-                             -=oOo=-              The Sublime Lodge of the Blue Brethren              Sacerdotal Knights of National Security    E Pluribus Caeruleus — "Out of many, That Which Is BLUE." http://www.noveltynet.org/content/paranormal/www.brotherblue.org/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Blue, I studied Yeats years ago without leraning any of this. Isn’t that odd? Not really.  Just as "history is always written by the victors," so any scholarly source in this "scientifically enlightened" age might be compelled to accidentally leave out portions which they might deem antiquated, superstitious, nonsensical, etc. To this day there are still many who remain unaware of Scientology’s L. Ron Hubbard’s connections to both Aleister Crowley and Pasadena J.P.L.’s Jack Parsons.  In fact, despite the fact that many of the locals used to offhandedly joke about JPL being an acronym for "Jack Parsons’ Lab," very few are evenly remotely aware of his other side — that of a Thelemic Mystic and OTO Initiate.  Rocket Scientists, you psee, are very Scientific and therefore not at all prone to such silly flights of fancy [he said without a trace of irony in his voice]. Yeah.  What he said. I found all of these facts, but typical of anything you have to really study something from all sources available to even begin to get a somewhat well rounded accurate picture.  There are sources that discuss both Yeats occult ties and Hubbards and Parsons stuff, but certainly not every one.

Certainly not.  Especially University profs. I’ve always found Parsons very interesting. Hubbard I just find insane.  ( The *bad* insane.  LOL)

Hubbard appeared to be very insane.  But how do you explain his followers?  Does it follow that Scientology attracts insane people, however you define insane?  Its all very interesting.   (Then again everything is interesting when you study it. Of course eventually everything connects with everything)

Such a view is anathema in academia.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ::: Brother Yeats and the Little People ::: In the late 1800s, William Butler Yeats came into contact with two very unrelated movements, the Irish nationalists and the Theosophists (an occult/magical sect), and took an active part in both … In 1890 he was "excommunicated" from the Theosophists by their leader Madame Blavatsky, because of discrepancies in their beliefs. Yeats then joined the Order of the Golden Dawn, another occult sect, where he began to experiment with magick. In contrast to the Theosophists, the Golden Dawn put emphasis not on obscure and untraceable Indian and Buddhist masters, but on the European mystical tradition, mainly the Kabbalah. Further contrasting Madame Blavatsky, the Golden Dawn encouraged its members to undertake occult experiments, "to demonstrate their power over the material universe." … Instead of giving Yeats theories as Theosophy had done, the Golden Dawn gave him the opportunity and method for constant experimentation and demonstration. Yeats spoke of it later as the chief influence upon his thought." D.A. MacManus, one of the first to write a natural history of the fairies, reports that his friend Yeats "was fully aware of the ‘everyday aspect’ of fairy lore and had great respect for it." In fact, Yeats firmly believed in the objective reality of the creatures. http://www.noveltynet.org/content/paranormal/www.brotherblue.org/bret… For the full text of this intriguing article, please refer to the above URL as the enormity of the page does not facilitate USENET posting, nor would the reader be adequately served without the associated graphics. All the best to all of you on our continued quests; -Blue Resonant Human, Ph.D., 33*, 8=3  Interdimensional Intelligence Analyst  Sacerdotal Knights of National Security  USENET Meme Acquisition and Propagation Directorate  http://www.noveltynet.org/content/paranormal/www.brotherblue.org/ Blue, I studied Yeats years ago without leraning any of this. Isn’t that odd? Not really.  Just as "history is always written by the victors," so any scholarly source in this "scientifically enlightened" age might be compelled to accidentally leave out portions which they might deem antiquated, superstitious, nonsensical, etc. To this day there are still many who remain unaware of Scientology’s L. Ron Hubbard’s connections to both Aleister Crowley and Pasadena J.P.L.’s Jack Parsons.  In fact, despite the fact that many of the locals used to offhandedly joke about JPL being an acronym for "Jack Parsons’ Lab," very few are evenly remotely aware of his other side — that of a Thelemic Mystic and OTO Initiate.  Rocket Scientists, you psee, are very Scientific and therefore not at all prone to such silly flights of fancy [he said without a trace of irony in his voice]. "The Method of Science … The Aim of Religion."  http://www.the-equinox.org/ 93’s -B:.B:.

Thanks, Blue.   _______   _            __  ___             __    / ___/ /  (_)  _____   /  |/  /_ _____  ___/ /__ / /__/ _ / / |/ / -_) / /|_/ / // / _ / _  / -_)                              /___/                 "We see what we believe, and not just the contrary; and to change what we see, it is sometimes necessary to change what we believe."

Response:

::: Brother Yeats and the Little People ::: In the late 1800s, William Butler Yeats came into contact with two very unrelated movements, the Irish nationalists and the Theosophists (an occult/magical sect), and took an active part in both … In 1890 he was "excommunicated" from the Theosophists by their leader Madame Blavatsky, because of discrepancies in their beliefs. Yeats then joined the Order of the Golden Dawn, another occult sect, where he began to experiment with magick. In contrast to the Theosophists, the Golden Dawn put emphasis not on obscure and untraceable Indian and Buddhist masters, but on the European mystical tradition, mainly the Kabbalah. Further contrasting Madame Blavatsky, the Golden Dawn encouraged its members to undertake occult experiments, "to demonstrate their power over the material universe." … Instead of giving Yeats theories as Theosophy had done, the Golden Dawn gave him the opportunity and method for constant experimentation and demonstration. Yeats spoke of it later as the chief influence upon his thought." D.A. MacManus, one of the first to write a natural history of the fairies, reports that his friend Yeats "was fully aware of the ‘everyday aspect’ of fairy lore and had great respect for it." In fact, Yeats firmly believed in the objective reality of the creatures. http://www.noveltynet.org/content/paranormal/www.brotherblue.org/bret… For the full text of this intriguing article, please refer to the above URL as the enormity of the page does not facilitate USENET posting, nor would the reader be adequately served without the associated graphics. All the best to all of you on our continued quests; -Blue Resonant Human, Ph.D., 33*, 8=3  Interdimensional Intelligence Analyst  Sacerdotal Knights of National Security  USENET Meme Acquisition and Propagation Directorate  http://www.noveltynet.org/content/paranormal/www.brotherblue.org/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ::: Brother Yeats and the Little People ::: In the late 1800s, William Butler Yeats came into contact with two very unrelated movements, the Irish nationalists and the Theosophists (an occult/magical sect), and took an active part in both … In 1890 he was "excommunicated" from the Theosophists by their leader Madame Blavatsky, because of discrepancies in their beliefs. Yeats then joined the Order of the Golden Dawn, another occult sect, where he began to experiment with magick. In contrast to the Theosophists, the Golden Dawn put emphasis not on obscure and untraceable Indian and Buddhist masters, but on the European mystical tradition, mainly the Kabbalah. Further contrasting Madame Blavatsky, the Golden Dawn encouraged its members to undertake occult experiments, "to demonstrate their power over the material universe." … Instead of giving Yeats theories as Theosophy had done, the Golden Dawn gave him the opportunity and method for constant experimentation and demonstration. Yeats spoke of it later as the chief influence upon his thought." D.A. MacManus, one of the first to write a natural history of the fairies, reports that his friend Yeats "was fully aware of the ‘everyday aspect’ of fairy lore and had great respect for it." In fact, Yeats firmly believed in the objective reality of the creatures. http://www.noveltynet.org/content/paranormal/www.brotherblue.org/bret… For the full text of this intriguing article, please refer to the above URL as the enormity of the page does not facilitate USENET posting, nor would the reader be adequately served without the associated graphics. All the best to all of you on our continued quests; -Blue Resonant Human, Ph.D., 33*, 8=3  Interdimensional Intelligence Analyst  Sacerdotal Knights of National Security  USENET Meme Acquisition and Propagation Directorate  http://www.noveltynet.org/content/paranormal/www.brotherblue.org/

Blue, I studied Yeats years ago without leraning any of this. Isn’t that odd?   _______   _            __  ___             __    / ___/ /  (_)  _____   /  |/  /_ _____  ___/ /__ / /__/ _ / / |/ / -_) / /|_/ / // / _ / _  / -_)                              /___/                 "We see what we believe, and not just the contrary; and to change what we see, it is sometimes necessary to change what we believe."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ::: Brother Yeats and the Little People ::: In the late 1800s, William Butler Yeats came into contact with two very unrelated movements, the Irish nationalists and the Theosophists (an occult/magical sect), and took an active part in both … In 1890 he was "excommunicated" from the Theosophists by their leader Madame Blavatsky, because of discrepancies in their beliefs. Yeats then joined the Order of the Golden Dawn, another occult sect, where he began to experiment with magick. In contrast to the Theosophists, the Golden Dawn put emphasis not on obscure and untraceable Indian and Buddhist masters, but on the European mystical tradition, mainly the Kabbalah. Further contrasting Madame Blavatsky, the Golden Dawn encouraged its members to undertake occult experiments, "to demonstrate their power over the material universe." … Instead of giving Yeats theories as Theosophy had done, the Golden Dawn gave him the opportunity and method for constant experimentation and demonstration. Yeats spoke of it later as the chief influence upon his thought." D.A. MacManus, one of the first to write a natural history of the fairies, reports that his friend Yeats "was fully aware of the ‘everyday aspect’ of fairy lore and had great respect for it." In fact, Yeats firmly believed in the objective reality of the creatures. http://www.noveltynet.org/content/paranormal/www.brotherblue.org/bret… For the full text of this intriguing article, please refer to the above URL as the enormity of the page does not facilitate USENET posting, nor would the reader be adequately served without the associated graphics. All the best to all of you on our continued quests; -Blue Resonant Human, Ph.D., 33*, 8=3  Interdimensional Intelligence Analyst  Sacerdotal Knights of National Security  USENET Meme Acquisition and Propagation Directorate  http://www.noveltynet.org/content/paranormal/www.brotherblue.org/ Blue, I studied Yeats years ago without leraning any of this. Isn’t that odd?

Not really.  Just as "history is always written by the victors," so any scholarly source in this "scientifically enlightened" age might be compelled to accidentally leave out portions which they might deem antiquated, superstitious, nonsensical, etc. To this day there are still many who remain unaware of Scientology’s L. Ron Hubbard’s connections to both Aleister Crowley and Pasadena J.P.L.’s Jack Parsons.  In fact, despite the fact that many of the locals used to offhandedly joke about JPL being an acronym for "Jack Parsons’ Lab," very few are evenly remotely aware of his other side — that of a Thelemic Mystic and OTO Initiate.  Rocket Scientists, you psee, are very Scientific and therefore not at all prone to such silly flights of fancy [he said without a trace of irony in his voice]. "The Method of Science … The Aim of Religion."  http://www.the-equinox.org/ 93’s -B:.B:.

Response:

Bali Bombing

Question:

Good point, however I’ve got a couple of problems with this. First of all, Indonesia is an Islamic state.

No Broomer, as you should know Indonesia is a secular state though with a +-90%  Muslim majority. The constitution and Pancasila (5 guiding principles) specifically give equal rights, at least officially, to all (monotheistic) religions. Moves to introduce an Islamic system or Shariah law have been strongly resisted by all governments since independence (except some concession was made a few years back to allow a weird dual Islamic-secular legal system in Aceh, but I don’t know if it ever was implemented). Megawati herslf, though officially a Muslim, may be a Hindu – at least she has some Hindu family background and she was "accused" of being Hindu by her opponents in the election campaign in 1999, when millions demonstrated for her in Jakarta. The only bits of official Islamic policy I am aware of (and these may be local not national government) are rules to restrict pub and entertainment centre opening hours during Ramadan and some other holidays (it’s really tough – during Ramadan my local pub closes at midnight – one hour later than my local in London!) But Bali is Indonesia, and Indonesia is an Islamic state. All Indonesian living in Indonesia are subjected to the same rules or law (unless you’re loaded and influential, but that’s the same everywhere).

Well, ditto, see above. Please tell me one Islamic law enacted in Indonesia. Or one Islamic point in the constitution. Indeed the rules of law are supposed to be the same throughout the country (with some provision for local customary law to be applied in addition, like Bali’s rather mysterious land/property law or practices). But since law enforcement (police and courts and prisons etc) is a complete and corrupt mess, it is hard to draw any rational conclusion about the effective legal system. Roger Jakarta

Response:

Even Miguel is right twice a day. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, not that many US citizens go to Bali. Far greater proportions of Euros and Australians go there. Obviously, someone wants to hurt the Balinese economy. Or, quite possibly, it was Muslim extremists hoping to set off a Hindu-Muslim conflict. The north half of Bali is Muslim. Is some group desiring a replay of Ambon, except this time in Bali? Everyone on Bali loses no matter what the outcome. I’d guess it has to be outsiders. Or a grudge against the specific venue. Havent you long criticized the State Dept warnings specifically for Bali and in general campaigned for how safe Bali is (was).  It looks as if this was targeted directly at tourists. Somehow I missed the State Department warning about shopping malls in Helsinki. Do you have a web link? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. miguel

Response:

No, not that many US citizens go to Bali. Far greater proportions of Euros and Australians go there. Obviously, someone wants to hurt the Balinese economy. Or, quite possibly, it was Muslim extremists hoping to set off a Hindu-Muslim conflict. The north half of Bali is Muslim. Is some group desiring a replay of Ambon, except this time in Bali? Peter

The whole northern half is Muslim? I never noticed, though I have seen small Muslim communities in the north. Certainly far from half the population anyway. Whereas the Ambon area is roughly 50-50 Muslim Christian so it was easlier for agitators (supposedly from outside the area) to trigger the violence there. According to http://www.worldinfozone.com/country.php?country=Bali (no idea how reliable it is) Religion Ninety-five percent of the population are Balinese Hindu – a combination of Hinduism and Balinese animist beliefs. There are some Muslim, Buddhist and Christian minorities. There are probably (OK, my guess!) more imported (Javanese etc) Muslims working in the tourist areas of south Bali than there are native Muslims in Bali. Anyway there has been little religious violence in Bali in recent years. It is really to early to speculate but it seems more likely to me that Bali was just a convenient place to attack westerners, whether it is part of an anti-US/west campaign or yet another attempt to destabilise the Indonesian government. Roger Jakarta

Response:

Bali is a province of Indonesia!!! Sadly, apart from the loss of life and injuries caused to innocent locals and foreigners; this will surely cause an immediate and ruinous decline in the number of tourists to visit this beautiful, and previously peaceful island!! — Paul O’Brien

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m waiting for people to start blaming this on Balinese foreign policy.

Response:

Good point, however I’ve got a couple of problems with this. First of all, Indonesia is an Islamic state. All three have a strong Islamic community. So that’s just dumb. It’s like Steve Bracks trying to declare that Victoria is another Australian country within Australia. Secondly, Malaysia and Singapore is probably still pissed off about the smog blowing over because of the blobs’ slash and burn technique, and in any case, my understanding is that diplomatically, things are a little cool between Indonesia and it’s neighbours. If they were people, Malaysia’s dog would be pooping on Indonesia’s lawn and Singapore would be ordering a lot of pizzas and having them sent to Indonesia’s place. Third, no one really wants to be the bunny to be seen to be supporting a terrorist organisation right now, and unfortunately, my country has always been a little slow when it comes to political repartee. It’s just convenient. Terrorism is all about opportunism and this reads like it. That doesn’t mean to say the locals are responsible. My apologies in advance, it’s like suggesting that an American is responsible for WTC. Nope, give us some credit please. If Indonesia wasn’t an Islamic state, well okay. But Bali is Indonesia, and Indonesia is an Islamic state. All Indonesian living in Indonesia are subjected to the same rules or law (unless you’re loaded and influential, but that’s the same everywhere). All the best, Broomer — ===== It doesn’t matter if you win or lose… The only thing that matters is… That you wake up to the next day… To fight and strive for another day. http://members.optusnet.com.au/~kayin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This sort of crap pisses me off big time. Some jerk gets bored and decides to show off his manhood and kills 50+ people. Three guesses who it might be. Right now I just hope they catch the fucking prick and throw the arse wipe into a pit fulls of African yellow crazy ants. Just as my country was starting to kick arse and take on the world again, some jerk decides to something this dumb. I’m really hoping that the prick really isn’t Indonesian as I’ve hoped people would learn by now. However, I have my suspicions about who’s responsible, http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-2085416,00.html Authorities in Malaysia and Singapore have alleged that members of Jemaah Islamiyah – a group said to be seeking to set up an Islamic state in Southeast Asia – are based in Indonesia. jay Sat, Oct 12, 2002  I’m hoping I’m wrong. The timing is interesting is all I’ll say. Hopefully no one on this NG has lost anyone in the explosion, if you have, then please accept my condolences. Shit like this is bad for everyone involved, especially if you have family there. Regards, Ka Kwok. — ===== It doesn’t matter if you win or lose… The only thing that matters is… That you wake up to the next day… To fight and strive for another day. http://members.optusnet.com.au/~kayin From Reuters:_ JAKARTA (Reuters) – Indonesian police said at least three people had been killed in two explosions on the resort island of Bali on Saturday night, with as many as 100 wounded. One police officer who declined to be identified said the explosions had occurred simultaneously, one of them not ar from the U.S. consulate on Bali. "At this stage there are three dead. It could be up to 100 hurt," said the officer. Eyewitnesses spoke of chaos in the area near one of the explosions, at the Sari night club around the famous Kuta beach strip, as foreign tourists were reveling on a typical Saturday night. One witness said windows on shops had been blown out up to 500 yards away. — Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

Miguel, give the Indonesian government some credit. The fat cats running the place have done a lot of dumb things in the past but even they can see this is NOT the time to fuck around. Especially when you’ve got the head of one of the most powerful nations on the planet willing to make the bastards responsible for WTC drown in hot lead. The last thing they want is for further heat to be on them. I know that certain people in power prefers the population to be just a little poor, but this would step way over the line. Even your religious nuts (and this is the reasons why I’ve always saw the need for a separation of State and Creed) would be wary of trying something like this. Especially considering with what happening in the Philippines. I almost get the feeling if GW can get away with it, he’d just napalm the Abu Sayaaf and just go home. No this looks like an outside attack. People in Indonesia knows that Bali is OFF LIMITS for that sort of shit. If Bali suffers, then the entire country suffers. I’m just hoping that none of the deceased doesn’t include kids, if it does, then I don’t know. All I’ll say is that death is too good for the people responsible. Peace, Ka Kwok — ===== It doesn’t matter if you win or lose… The only thing that matters is… That you wake up to the next day… To fight and strive for another day. http://members.optusnet.com.au/~kayin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Havent you long criticized the State Dept warnings specifically for Bali and in general campaigned for how safe Bali is (was).  It looks as if this was targeted directly at tourists. Incidentally, and this is pretty sickening, radio in the region is now reporting that 53 people are dead. A couple more thoughts, because this is bothering me a lot. With 53 or more people dead, this is a higher ratio to Bali’s total population than the 3000 WTC/Pentagon victims were to the population of the US. Granted, Bali is part of Indonesia, but in many ways it’s a very separate place (religiously and culturally very different) with its own consciousness. Bali has always been one of the places on the planet where I’ve felt most warmly welcome. I’ve gone back time and time again, almost addicted to the overflowing hospitality and genuine friendliness of the people there. Last time I was there, it was heartbreaking to see all the hotel and restaurant proprietors struggling for their shares of the shrinking tourist business – which never really came back after the 1998 problems elsewhere in Indonesia, despite concerted and effective efforts by Balinese to keep these problems from manifesting on Bali. The economy has been dependent on tourism for so long that the additional shock which will no doubt follow this incident is going to be devastating. There is really no comparison to how the average person in, say, Washington (where I live) suffered following the attack here. It’s really a tragedy. I’m perplexed about the motives. Either it was simply a soft target, or there is some specific reason why right-wing religious folk (pretty fair bet in Indonesia these days) want to eliminate the tourism industry on Bali. Resentment of the vaguely better living conditions enjoyed by the Hindus there? Did the Indonesian government have policies underscored by considerations of the tourism industry that made life difficult for the local fundamentalists, which they’d prefer rendered moot? miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/

Response:

I’m waiting for people to start blaming this on Balinese foreign policy.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, not that many US citizens go to Bali. Far greater proportions of Euros and Australians go there. Obviously, someone wants to hurt the Balinese economy. Or, quite possibly, it was Muslim extremists hoping to set off a Hindu-Muslim conflict. The north half of Bali is Muslim. Is some group desiring a replay of Ambon, except this time in Bali? Everyone on Bali loses no matter what the outcome. I’d guess it has to be outsiders. Or a grudge against the specific venue. Havent you long criticized the State Dept warnings specifically for Bali and in general campaigned for how safe Bali is (was).  It looks as if this was targeted directly at tourists. Somehow I missed the State Department warning about shopping malls in Helsinki. Do you have a web link? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/

Response:

This sort of crap pisses me off big time. Some jerk gets bored and decides to show off his manhood and kills 50+ people. Three guesses who it might be. Right now I just hope they catch the fucking prick and throw the arse wipe into a pit fulls of African yellow crazy ants. Just as my country was starting to kick arse and take on the world again, some jerk decides to something this dumb. I’m really hoping that the prick really isn’t Indonesian as I’ve hoped people would learn by now. However, I have my suspicions about who’s responsible,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-2085416,00.html Authorities in Malaysia and Singapore have alleged that members of Jemaah Islamiyah – a group said to be seeking to set up an Islamic state in Southeast Asia – are based in Indonesia.

jay Sat, Oct 12, 2002  I’m hoping I’m wrong. The timing – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – is interesting is all I’ll say. Hopefully no one on this NG has lost anyone in the explosion, if you have, then please accept my condolences. Shit like this is bad for everyone involved, especially if you have family there. Regards, Ka Kwok. — ===== It doesn’t matter if you win or lose… The only thing that matters is… That you wake up to the next day… To fight and strive for another day. http://members.optusnet.com.au/~kayin From Reuters:_ JAKARTA (Reuters) – Indonesian police said at least three people had been killed in two explosions on the resort island of Bali on Saturday night, with as many as 100 wounded. One police officer who declined to be identified said the explosions had occurred simultaneously, one of them not ar from the U.S. consulate on Bali. "At this stage there are three dead. It could be up to 100 hurt," said the officer. Eyewitnesses spoke of chaos in the area near one of the explosions, at the Sari night club around the famous Kuta beach strip, as foreign tourists were reveling on a typical Saturday night. One witness said windows on shops had been blown out up to 500 yards away.

– Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

This sort of crap pisses me off big time. Some jerk gets bored and decides to show off his manhood and kills 50+ people. Three guesses who it might be. Right now I just hope they catch the fucking prick and throw the arse wipe into a pit fulls of African yellow crazy ants. Just as my country was starting to kick arse and take on the world again, some jerk decides to something this dumb. I’m really hoping that the prick really isn’t Indonesian as I’ve hoped people would learn by now. However, I have my suspicions about who’s responsible, I’m hoping I’m wrong. The timing is interesting is all I’ll say. Hopefully no one on this NG has lost anyone in the explosion, if you have, then please accept my condolences. Shit like this is bad for everyone involved, especially if you have family there. Regards, Ka Kwok. — ===== It doesn’t matter if you win or lose… The only thing that matters is… That you wake up to the next day… To fight and strive for another day. http://members.optusnet.com.au/~kayin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From Reuters:_ JAKARTA (Reuters) – Indonesian police said at least three people had been killed in two explosions on the resort island of Bali on Saturday night, with as many as 100 wounded. One police officer who declined to be identified said the explosions had occurred simultaneously, one of them not ar from the U.S. consulate on Bali. "At this stage there are three dead. It could be up to 100 hurt," said the officer. Eyewitnesses spoke of chaos in the area near one of the explosions, at the Sari night club around the famous Kuta beach strip, as foreign tourists were reveling on a typical Saturday night. One witness said windows on shops had been blown out up to 500 yards away.

Response:

Perhaps a new category of punishment should be introduced: slow death by torture. Don’t make such a stupid joke.

Torture would be very wrong, but a fair and legal trial, a mandatory appeal and then a PUBLIC execution, so it will have a deterrent effect on future killers. jay Sat, Oct 12, 2002 Indonesia under the Suharto dictatorship had regularly extreme tortures for its deliquents. I have seen public torture in Sulawesi some years ago.

– Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

They dont like bikinis, should we give into this demand (among many others) ?

I sure don’t think so. I’m all in favor of religious freedom, but I draw the line absolutely at any "freedom" that depends on restricting others’ right to do as they please without causing physical harm. This gets tricky when you get to intentional incitement to violence (i.e., standing outside someone’s temple with a sign that says "your god has sex with dogs, and the dog was on top"). Personally, I think that anyone who is so weak that they allow themselves to be manipulated into destructive behavior just because some idiot is holding up a sign (or yelling a slogan) deserves full punishment for what they do, but I recognize that temper can be a powerful thing. What we have here, though, is nowhere near that gray area. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/

Response:

Havent you long criticized the State Dept warnings specifically for Bali and in general campaigned for how safe Bali is (was).  It looks as if this was targeted directly at tourists. Incidentally, and this is pretty sickening, radio in the region is now reporting that 53 people are dead. A couple more thoughts, because this is bothering me a lot.

Me too, it is very sad that violence has come to this incredible spot on the earth. But when you contrast the relative freedoms of Bali to other parts of Indonesia. this is a target. They dont like bikinis, should we give into this demand (among many others) ? jay Sat, Oct 12, 2002 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With 53 or more people dead, this is a higher ratio to Bali’s total population than the 3000 WTC/Pentagon victims were to the population of the US. Granted, Bali is part of Indonesia, but in many ways it’s a very separate place (religiously and culturally very different) with its own consciousness. Bali has always been one of the places on the planet where I’ve felt most warmly welcome. I’ve gone back time and time again, almost addicted to the overflowing hospitality and genuine friendliness of the people there. Last time I was there, it was heartbreaking to see all the hotel and restaurant proprietors struggling for their shares of the shrinking tourist business – which never really came back after the 1998 problems elsewhere in Indonesia, despite concerted and effective efforts by Balinese to keep these problems from manifesting on Bali. The economy has been dependent on tourism for so long that the additional shock which will no doubt follow this incident is going to be devastating. There is really no comparison to how the average person in, say, Washington (where I live) suffered following the attack here. It’s really a tragedy. I’m perplexed about the motives. Either it was simply a soft target, or there is some specific reason why right-wing religious folk (pretty fair bet in Indonesia these days) want to eliminate the tourism industry on Bali. Resentment of the vaguely better living conditions enjoyed by the Hindus there? Did the Indonesian government have policies underscored by considerations of the tourism industry that made life difficult for the local fundamentalists, which they’d prefer rendered moot? miguel

– Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

Latest news I have seen says 54 dead.  Sad. Larry in Berkeley, California (seaotter #six at a o l dot com)(no spaces in address)

Response:

I’m perplexed about the motives. Either it was simply a soft target, or there is some specific reason why right-wing religious folk (pretty fair bet in Indonesia these days) want to eliminate the tourism industry on Bali. Resentment of the vaguely better living conditions enjoyed by the Hindus there? Did the Indonesian government have policies underscored by considerations of the tourism industry that made life difficult for the local fundamentalists, which they’d prefer rendered moot?

Perhaps a new category of punishment should be introduced: slow death by torture. Amnesty International doesn’t like the idea I know. Just about 2 weeks ago I sipped beers at Sari Club and Paddy’s. Hundreds and thousands of people who did so yesterday, won’t do so today.

Response:

Havent you long criticized the State Dept warnings specifically for Bali and in general campaigned for how safe Bali is (was).  It looks as if this was targeted directly at tourists. Incidentally, and this is pretty sickening, radio in the region is now reporting that 53 people are dead.

A couple more thoughts, because this is bothering me a lot. With 53 or more people dead, this is a higher ratio to Bali’s total population than the 3000 WTC/Pentagon victims were to the population of the US. Granted, Bali is part of Indonesia, but in many ways it’s a very separate place (religiously and culturally very different) with its own consciousness. Bali has always been one of the places on the planet where I’ve felt most warmly welcome. I’ve gone back time and time again, almost addicted to the overflowing hospitality and genuine friendliness of the people there. Last time I was there, it was heartbreaking to see all the hotel and restaurant proprietors struggling for their shares of the shrinking tourist business – which never really came back after the 1998 problems elsewhere in Indonesia, despite concerted and effective efforts by Balinese to keep these problems from manifesting on Bali. The economy has been dependent on tourism for so long that the additional shock which will no doubt follow this incident is going to be devastating. There is really no comparison to how the average person in, say, Washington (where I live) suffered following the attack here. It’s really a tragedy. I’m perplexed about the motives. Either it was simply a soft target, or there is some specific reason why right-wing religious folk (pretty fair bet in Indonesia these days) want to eliminate the tourism industry on Bali. Resentment of the vaguely better living conditions enjoyed by the Hindus there? Did the Indonesian government have policies underscored by considerations of the tourism industry that made life difficult for the local fundamentalists, which they’d prefer rendered moot? miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/

Response:

No, not that many US citizens go to Bali. Far greater proportions of Euros and Australians go there. Obviously, someone wants to hurt the Balinese economy. Or, quite possibly, it was Muslim extremists hoping to set off a Hindu-Muslim conflict. The north half of Bali is Muslim. Is some group desiring a replay of Ambon, except this time in Bali? Everyone on Bali loses no matter what the outcome. I’d guess it has to be outsiders. Or a grudge against the specific venue. Havent you long criticized the State Dept warnings specifically for Bali and in general campaigned for how safe Bali is (was).  It looks as if this was targeted directly at tourists.

Somehow I missed the State Department warning about shopping malls in Helsinki. Do you have a web link? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/

Response:

Havent you long criticized the State Dept warnings specifically for Bali and in general campaigned for how safe Bali is (was).  It looks as if this was targeted directly at tourists.

Incidentally, and this is pretty sickening, radio in the region is now reporting that 53 people are dead. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/

Response:

No, not that many US citizens go to Bali. Far greater proportions of Euros and Australians go there. Obviously, someone wants to hurt the Balinese economy. Or, quite possibly, it was Muslim extremists hoping to set off a Hindu-Muslim conflict. The north half of Bali is Muslim. Is some group desiring a replay of Ambon, except this time in Bali?

Everyone on Bali loses no matter what the outcome. I’d guess it has to be outsiders. Or a grudge against the specific venue. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/

Response:

No, not that many US citizens go to Bali. Far greater proportions of Euros and Australians go there. Obviously, someone wants to hurt the Balinese economy. Or, quite possibly, it was Muslim extremists hoping to set off a Hindu-Muslim conflict. The north half of Bali is Muslim. Is some group desiring a replay of Ambon, except this time in Bali? Everyone on Bali loses no matter what the outcome. I’d guess it has to be outsiders. Or a grudge against the specific venue. miguel

Havent you long criticized the State Dept warnings specifically for Bali and in general campaigned for how safe Bali is (was).  It looks as if this was targeted directly at tourists. jay Sat, Oct 12, 2002 — Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

No, not that many US citizens go to Bali. Far greater proportions of Euros and Australians go there. Obviously, someone wants to hurt the Balinese economy. Or, quite possibly, it was Muslim extremists hoping to set off a Hindu-Muslim conflict. The north half of Bali is Muslim. Is some group desiring a replay of Ambon, except this time in Bali? Peter

maybe it’s another terror act against us-citizen? martin Pete Loud schrieb: Hi, Tomorrow’s Jakarta Post is saying "At least 12 people, mostly foreigners, were killed"

http://www.thejakartapost.com/detaillatestnews.asp?fileid=20021013011… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – c=0 Sounds bad. Pete Loud From Reuters:_ JAKARTA (Reuters) – Indonesian police said at least three people had been killed in two explosions on the resort island of Bali on Saturday night, with as many as 100 wounded. One police officer who declined to be identified said the explosions had occurred simultaneously, one of them not ar from the U.S. consulate on Bali. "At this stage there are three dead. It could be up to 100 hurt," said the officer. Eyewitnesses spoke of chaos in the area near one of the explosions, at the Sari night club around the famous Kuta beach strip, as foreign tourists were reveling on a typical Saturday night. One witness said windows on shops had been blown out up to 500 yards away.

Response:

maybe it’s another terror act against us-citizen? martin Pete Loud schrieb: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Tomorrow’s Jakarta Post is saying "At least 12 people, mostly foreigners, were killed" http://www.thejakartapost.com/detaillatestnews.asp?fileid=20021013011… c=0 Sounds bad. Pete Loud From Reuters:_ JAKARTA (Reuters) – Indonesian police said at least three people had been killed in two explosions on the resort island of Bali on Saturday night, with as many as 100 wounded. One police officer who declined to be identified said the explosions had occurred simultaneously, one of them not ar from the U.S. consulate on Bali. "At this stage there are three dead. It could be up to 100 hurt," said the officer. Eyewitnesses spoke of chaos in the area near one of the explosions, at the Sari night club around the famous Kuta beach strip, as foreign tourists were reveling on a typical Saturday night. One witness said windows on shops had been blown out up to 500 yards away.

Response:

This really sucks. When will religion(s) finaly be outlawed? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From Reuters:_     JAKARTA (Reuters) – Indonesian police said at least three people had been killed in two explosions on the resort island of Bali on Saturday night, with as many as 100 wounded. One police officer who declined to be identified said the explosions had occurred simultaneously, one of them not ar from the U.S. consulate on Bali. "At this stage there are three dead. It could be up to 100 hurt," said the officer. Eyewitnesses spoke of chaos in the area near one of the explosions, at the Sari night club around the famous Kuta beach strip, as foreign tourists were reveling on a typical Saturday night. One witness said windows on shops had been blown out up to 500 yards away.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From Reuters:_ JAKARTA (Reuters) – Indonesian police said at least three people had been killed in two explosions on the resort island of Bali on Saturday night, with as many as 100 wounded. One police officer who declined to be identified said the explosions had occurred simultaneously, one of them not ar from the U.S. consulate on Bali. "At this stage there are three dead. It could be up to 100 hurt," said the officer. Eyewitnesses spoke of chaos in the area near one of the explosions, at the Sari night club around the famous Kuta beach strip, as foreign tourists were reveling on a typical Saturday night. One witness said windows on shops had been blown out up to 500 yards away.

Latest headlines from Jakarta Post online : "Bali blast toll reaches 60, more bodies buried under rubble.." Knut

Response:

From Reuters:_     JAKARTA (Reuters) – Indonesian police said at least three people had been killed in two explosions on the resort island of Bali on Saturday night, with as many as 100 wounded. One police officer who declined to be identified said the explosions had occurred simultaneously, one of them not ar from the U.S. consulate on Bali. "At this stage there are three dead. It could be up to 100 hurt," said the officer. Eyewitnesses spoke of chaos in the area near one of the explosions, at the Sari night club around the famous Kuta beach strip, as foreign tourists were reveling on a typical Saturday night. One witness said windows on shops had been blown out up to 500 yards away.

Response:

Hi, Tomorrow’s Jakarta Post is saying "At least 12 people, mostly foreigners, were killed" http://www.thejakartapost.com/detaillatestnews.asp?fileid=20021013011… c=0 Sounds bad. Pete Loud

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From Reuters:_ JAKARTA (Reuters) – Indonesian police said at least three people had been killed in two explosions on the resort island of Bali on Saturday night, with as many as 100 wounded. One police officer who declined to be identified said the explosions had occurred simultaneously, one of them not ar from the U.S. consulate on Bali. "At this stage there are three dead. It could be up to 100 hurt," said the officer. Eyewitnesses spoke of chaos in the area near one of the explosions, at the Sari night club around the famous Kuta beach strip, as foreign tourists were reveling on a typical Saturday night. One witness said windows on shops had been blown out up to 500 yards away.

Response:

Questions about Wicca/Pagan pertaining to Gods/Goddesses

Question:

I think you are mistaken, Parse.. Magick is only as complex as the individual’s mindset chooses to make it. Regarding complete, a working is only complete when it is done.. P

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you have it backwards.  Magick is more complex and complete than religion. Oh, and you’re supposed to call it ‘Magick’, with a k. Religion is a more complex and complete system of belief than magic is.    That is why magic may attach itself to any religious system…even those like Christianity which technically does not permit magic to be practiced by adherents. Pip in message

t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – .  Or, one may mix the two, bringing their magick into a sacred place, crafting sorcery in the presence, and with the approval and strength, of their gods.

Response:

Magick with a K.  Yeah, I remember when that became de rigor in the pagan community. I spell it magic, because if you discuss the concept outside of this magickal community…you will need to drop that K, since magic really isn’t spelled that way.  And yes, magic is discussed academically; and by persons who may not even believe in it but know that like GOD, believe in it or not, it is a valid subject for study. Magic, in your mind, may be more complex and complete than religious systems…but standard descriptions of the two don’t agree with your mind on this subject. Keep in mind one thing…all approaches to magic have been derived at one time or another from religious systems…..all of them.  Even if they have lost their parent theism.  Persons who practice magic may not believe in deities…but even chi comes from a religious system.  Not all religions have anthropoid deities.  Some have amorphous sources of life.  Nonetheless, they are religious systems. Pip

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you have it backwards.  Magick is more complex and complete than religion. Oh, and you’re supposed to call it ‘Magick’, with a k. Religion is a more complex and complete system of belief than magic is.    That is why magic may attach itself to any religious system…even those like Christianity which technically does not permit magic to be practiced by adherents. Pip message

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – .  Or, one may mix the two, bringing their magick into a sacred place, crafting sorcery in the presence, and with the approval and strength, of their gods.

Response:

I think you have it backwards.  Magick is more complex and complete than religion. Oh, and you’re supposed to call it ‘Magick’, with a k.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Religion is a more complex and complete system of belief than magic is.    That is why magic may attach itself to any religious system…even those like Christianity which technically does not permit magic to be practiced by adherents. Pip .  Or, one may mix the two, bringing their magick into a sacred place, crafting sorcery in the presence, and with the approval and strength, of their gods.

Response:

My personal belief that "God/s" are merely a manifistation of universal energy.  But then again, this does tie into my psuedo-scientific view of spiritual energy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a wiccan/pagan/witch, and be an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not? Visit My Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/freedomwarrior5000 I am not sure, but I feel like this sometimes (lots). I Believe in something – energy – but not necessarily in a manifest form. Believing in Life. Which I have to also say, allows me to believe in Gaea and the Universe.. etc.

Response:

I disagree. To practice Wicca, one needs to invoke the spirits, right? Maybe environmental paganism? I’m not sure. Case

The question was more wide open then being just Wicca.  It did include being a witch.  As for invoking yes most Wiccans do invoke the god or goddess.  The Dianics as far as I know do not invoke the god at all. One important point is one can be a witch without being Wicca.   As for the FAQ it is the work of many, it is not my answers alone.  I just maintain the collected answers that appear to be the best ones. One reason some former Wiccans have selected to call themselves pagan is the rejection of dogma.   From what I have seen some that call themself Wicca or pagan do not have much concern about the environment. Yes it is possible.  Being a witch does not require a deity.  The groups FAQ offers being Wiccan can be a world view that can blend with any religion or none.

–

Response:

[beatnik applause] *snap snap snap snap snapsnap snap* Right on, Pip.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I disagree Donna. Atheism predates our concept of science, the scientific method, or even a mechanistic worldview. Secular Humanism is Atheistic, and they don’t believe that love is purely chemical.  In fact, whole its well known that love causes chemical changes, I have never read anyone  who writes academically call Love purely chemical. Logic and the scientific method are not the same things.  Logic is actually a philosophy.  It began as philosophy, and is still considered philosophy.  Logic and algebra are also not the same thing, though the word logic is used a lot when following formulas. Atheists don’t believe in an anthropomorphic deity.  Their optimism or pessimism is their own.  They may also believe in some form of immortality.  To deny belief in a godhead is not to deny spirituality.  Atheists differ a lot in their views. In answer to your question, YES, its more than possible, its a fact. To believe that one needs gods etc to practice witchcraft, is to show the Christian face that you thought you left behind. For all those reading this in alt wicca…well, that’s your bag baby.  But its only your…bag that is. Pip You cannot be a atheist and a anything that believs in a higher being. Atheisem has No higher being, the beleif is more based in science. What you can see here or touch. It must be logicaly proveable and have substnce. No Mystery, just unproven facts.  Love is purely chemical, Life is just one day after another,  There is no destination Only a Daily plod through life with no promise of a reward for being a good and loving person.. No insult intended on any person wanting to become or is presently a athiest, but what I have observed having known a few myself. Is that most of them are as strict in their beleafes as the most stringent Bible belters trying to enlighten the people around them that they believe in a "myth". I have had many arguements over this, and these people are my friends!  So thats my answer to your queston. NO. Absolutely because religious devotion and the use of forms are two different things. message      Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a wiccan/pagan/witch, and be an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not? Visit My Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/freedomwarrior5000

Response:

I disagree Donna. Atheism predates our concept of science, the scientific method, or even a mechanistic worldview. Secular Humanism is Atheistic, and they don’t believe that love is purely chemical.  In fact, whole its well known that love causes chemical changes, I have never read anyone  who writes academically call Love purely chemical. Logic and the scientific method are not the same things.  Logic is actually a philosophy.  It began as philosophy, and is still considered philosophy.  Logic and algebra are also not the same thing, though the word logic is used a lot when following formulas. Atheists don’t believe in an anthropomorphic deity.  Their optimism or pessimism is their own.  They may also believe in some form of immortality.  To deny belief in a godhead is not to deny spirituality.  Atheists differ a lot in their views. In answer to your question, YES, its more than possible, its a fact. To believe that one needs gods etc to practice witchcraft, is to show the Christian face that you thought you left behind. For all those reading this in alt wicca…well, that’s your bag baby.  But its only your…bag that is. Pip

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You cannot be a atheist and a anything that believs in a higher being. Atheisem has No higher being, the beleif is more based in science. What you can see here or touch. It must be logicaly proveable and have substnce. No Mystery, just unproven facts.  Love is purely chemical, Life is just one day after another,  There is no destination Only a Daily plod through life with no promise of a reward for being a good and loving person.. No insult intended on any person wanting to become or is presently a athiest, but what I have observed having known a few myself. Is that most of them are as strict in their beleafes as the most stringent Bible belters trying to enlighten the people around them that they believe in a "myth". I have had many arguements over this, and these people are my friends!  So thats my answer to your queston. NO. Absolutely because religious devotion and the use of forms are two different things. message

     Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a

wiccan/pagan/witch, and be – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not? Visit My Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/freedomwarrior5000

Response:

Absolutely because religious devotion and the use of forms are two different things.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a wiccan/pagan/witch, and be an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not? Visit My Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/freedomwarrior5000

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You cannot be a atheist and a anything that believs in a higher being. Atheisem has No higher being, the beleif is more based in science. What you can see here or touch. It must be logicaly proveable and have substnce. No Mystery, just unproven facts.  Love is purely chemical, Life is just one day after another,  There is no destination Only a Daily plod through life with no promise of a reward for being a good and loving person.. No insult intended on any person wanting to become or is presently a athiest, but what I have observed having known a few myself. Is that most of them are as strict in their beleafes as the most stringent Bible belters trying to enlighten the people around them that they believe in a "myth". I have had many arguements over this, and these people are my friends!  So thats my answer to your queston. NO.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Absolutely because religious devotion and the use of forms are two different things.      Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a wiccan/pagan/witch, and be an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not? Visit My Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/freedomwarrior5000

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where it grows. or where it blooms and dies. ok thanks.

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My personal belief that "God/s" are merely a manifistation of universal energy.  But then again, this does tie into my psuedo-scientific view of spiritual energy.

Ok.. I feel gods are before manifestation, but that the manifest is a result of perhaps archetypal influences, and the interactions and dances between them.

Response:

I disagree. To practice Wicca, one needs to invoke the spirits, right? Maybe environmental paganism? I’m not sure.

You made me think of.. invoking the "matrix" of spirit, or environmental paganism.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a wiccan/pagan/witch, and be an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not? Visit My Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/freedomwarrior5000 I think that this brings up a subject that is not too often discussed, the differences between magick and religion.  One may practice some form of magick or sorcery and believe in any religion, or none, and keep the two separate.  Or, one may mix the two, bringing their magick into a sacred place, crafting sorcery in the presence, and with the approval and strength, of their gods.  Still others practice a tradition that blends the two spheres of magick and religion.  Many practitioners of magick turn to the ego-denying pratices of the east. Also, many followers of the pagan/heathen religion do not practice magick at all, gaining spiritual strength and fortitude from the worship of their gods.

I think you need to understand that there is quite a difference between western Occultism and eastern Mysticism. When one practices eastern traditions it’s categorized as mysticism, just as religious magick is usually called theurgy whereas pure magick is thaumaturgy.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a wiccan/pagan/witch, and be an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not? Visit My Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/freedomwarrior5000 Forgive the piggyback, hy.  Being a witch has naught to do with religion; wiccan, pagan or otherwise. That’s ok 9th. For me, I would have been a witch, just because of my "religious" beliefs, or perhaps spiritual beliefs. This is why I got on the net in the first place (the ng’s), was to find out about these people I was hearing about who called themselves witches. I believed myself to be one then. Maybe not a hereditary witch, because I didn’t have a darn person in my family to teach me, but a witch non the less. But that was my definition, and the reason I called myself a witch, or a witch to be, was because I felt that the environment nourished us, as we live off the environment. Therefore if I listened closely, I would learn how to use energy, as well as herbs, etc., to heal myself and be one with my environment. That was the definition of a witch, in my mind. What is the definition of a witch, in your mind?

Someone who practices witchery, be they Cabbalist, Vouduon, Buddhist, Tao, Hindu, Muslim, atheist, agnostic, Christian(yes, capitalized this time), Satanist, Satinest<g, or worship the proverbial head of lettuce. They may personally call themselves by different names, but a rose is a rose is a rose no matter when or where it grows. T9W

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I disagree. To practice Wicca, one needs to invoke the spirits, right? Maybe environmental paganism? I’m not sure. Case – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a wiccan/pagan/witch, and be an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not? Yes it is possible.  Being a witch does not require a deity.  The groups FAQ offers being Wiccan can be a world view that can blend with any religion or none. —

Response:

     Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a wiccan/pagan/witch, and be an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not? Visit My Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/freedomwarrior5000

Forgive the piggyback, hy.  Being a witch has naught to do with religion; wiccan, pagan or otherwise. T9W – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not sure, but I feel like this sometimes (lots). I Believe in something – energy – but not necessarily in a manifest form. Believing in Life. Which I have to also say, allows me to believe in Gaea and the Universe.. etc.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a wiccan/pagan/witch, and be an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not? Visit My Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/freedomwarrior5000 Forgive the piggyback, hy.  Being a witch has naught to do with religion; wiccan, pagan or otherwise.

That’s ok 9th. For me, I would have been a witch, just because of my "religious" beliefs, or perhaps spiritual beliefs. This is why I got on the net in the first place (the ng’s), was to find out about these people I was hearing about who called themselves witches. I believed myself to be one then. Maybe not a hereditary witch, because I didn’t have a darn person in my family to teach me, but a witch non the less. But that was my definition, and the reason I called myself a witch, or a witch to be, was because I felt that the environment nourished us, as we live off the environment. Therefore if I listened closely, I would learn how to use energy, as well as herbs, etc., to heal myself and be one with my environment. That was the definition of a witch, in my mind. What is the definition of a witch, in your mind?

Response:

same here, kind of like akasha or some shit, a life force or energy that interconnects stuff… i’m definitely not sure though, once i thought i saw akasha or gaia but i was on acid

Response:

same here, kind of like akasha or some shit, a life force or energy that interconnects stuff… i’m definitely not sure though, once i thought i saw akasha or gaia but i was on acid

thanks, that was a good and funny post, all at the same time.

Response:

Religion is a more complex and complete system of belief than magic is.    That is why magic may attach itself to any religious system…even those like Christianity which technically does not permit magic to be practiced by adherents. Pip

.  Or, one may mix the two, bringing their magick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – into a sacred place, crafting sorcery in the presence, and with the approval and strength, of their gods.

Response:

Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a wiccan/pagan/witch, and be an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not? Visit My Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/freedomwarrior5000

I think that this brings up a subject that is not too often discussed, the differences between magick and religion.  One may practice some form of magick or sorcery and believe in any religion, or none, and keep the two separate.  Or, one may mix the two, bringing their magick into a sacred place, crafting sorcery in the presence, and with the approval and strength, of their gods.  Still others practice a tradition that blends the two spheres of magick and religion.  Many practitioners of magick turn to the ego-denying pratices of the east. Also, many followers of the pagan/heathen religion do not practice magick at all, gaining spiritual strength and fortitude from the worship of their gods. There is also the question of semantics.  The terms ‘pagan’ and ‘witch’ especially have been applied to mean anything from ‘Thelemic practitioner’ to ‘Wiccan’ to ‘Dianic’ to ‘Hellene’, with the individual use varying as widely as the community itself.  There has been increasing concern in the last few years to find words to distinguish all the different groups and traditions, with their respective different emphases.  An example of this is the widespread use of the term ‘Heathen’ to distinguish reconstructed, historical pre-christian beliefs of Europe, in particularly germanic ones, from the more modern, western mystery tradition-based beliefs and practices. Kara

Response:

     Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a wiccan/pagan/witch, and be an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not?

Yes. They should really modify the definition of atheism to be one that does not believe in religion, rather than gods/god.

Response:

     Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a wiccan/pagan/witch, and be an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not? Visit My Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/freedomwarrior5000

I am not sure, but I feel like this sometimes (lots). I Believe in something – energy – but not necessarily in a manifest form. Believing in Life. Which I have to also say, allows me to believe in Gaea and the Universe.. etc.

Response:

     Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a wiccan/pagan/witch, and be an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not? Visit My Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/freedomwarrior5000

Response:

     Greetings everyone.  If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you guys this question.  Is it possible to be a wiccan/pagan/witch, and be an atheist (those that have no belief in any gods, goddesses, or other deities) at the same time?  Why or why not?

Yes it is possible.  Being a witch does not require a deity.  The groups FAQ offers being Wiccan can be a world view that can blend with any religion or none. —

Response:

Stopping the Violence Between Israelis and Palestinians. Seriously. STOPPING the Violence.

Question:

An improved version of this note, complete with links to the newsmagazines, is to be found on a new link added to the first page of my web page: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – See my web page for a detailed description of the Knowledge that has been rejected and the Teaching that has been forgotten by the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religious officials (cf. Hosea 4:4-6 and Daniel 12:9-10): http://www.deadseanaghammadiresearch.com Michael Cecil

Response:

It is an open secret that Jews, Christians and Muslims each consider themselves superior to the others. Jews, Christians and Muslims *each* believe that the religious ‘truths’ that they believe are superior to the ‘truths’ believed by the others. And such feelings of superiority–which are, by their very nature, in- capable of being adequately addressed, much less resolved by any polit- ical paradigm–are at the very foundation of all manner of oppression, violence, and violation of the Moral Law… Which, in turn, are at the foundation of the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians; between Jews, Christians and Muslims. The argument presented on my web page is very complicated and, perhaps, too difficult for most people to understand. But this is not particularly important. The *purpose* of my argument is to "level the playing field" between Jews, Christians and Muslims by demonstrating that they have *all* de- parted from their respective Revelations. Thus, there is *no* basis for ANY feelings of superiority between Jews, Christians and Muslims on the basis of the Revelations in the Torah, the Teaching of Jesus, or the Koran. And, it is only when an AXE is laid to the ROOT of such feelings of sup- eriority–feelings originating in theological error and the contradic- tion of Revealed Truth–that it will be possible for there to be genuine Peace between Israelis and Palestinians; between Jews, Christians and Muslims: The Jews are the Chosen people. This is affirmed in the Torah and confirmed by the Koran. But this does not mean that the Jews are superior to other peoples. On the contrary, such feelings of superiority are based upon a *dis*- understanding of this Revelation, and result in evil, oppression and violence. Christians believe that Jesus was the ‘M’essiah. But this does not mean that Christians are superior to those who do not believe that Jesus was the ‘M’essiah–especially, when this belief is used as a ‘justification’ for oppression and *violence* against those who do not believe. And how can Muslims legitimately feel superior to Jews or Christians when the Koran specifically *condemns* the "division of believers into sects, each one *glorying* in its own beliefs"? Thus, there is Truth and falsehood in Jewish, Christian and Muslim theology; and there are good and evil Jews, Christians and Muslims; good and evil Israelis and Palestinians. And, before it is too late, those who genuinely desire Peace must make their voices heard. Israelis and Palestinians–Jews, Christians and Muslims–must begin to look at each other not on the basis of who is superior, because this can only lead to a perpetuation and increase in oppression, vi- olence, and violation of the Moral Law. Israelis and Palestinians–Jews, Christians and Muslims–must begin to open their hearts to each others sufferings; must begin to acknowledge that there is Truth and falsehood in each of these religions, good and evil among all of these believers. Only when Palestinians become just as horrified at the shedding of Is- raeli blood as they are at the shedding of Palestinian blood–only when Israelis (and the Fundamentalist Christians) become just as horrified at the oppression suffered by the Palestinians as they are at the violence which results from such oppression–will it be possible for there to be genuine Peace. Those desiring violence and bloodshed are, almost daily now, inflicting an horrific toll upon Palestinians and Israelis. And, in other places, similar horrors are occurring against Hindus, Muslims and Christians. Is it not time, finally, to hear the *Truth* about the Torah, the Teach- ing of Jesus, and the Revelations in the Koran? Is it not time, finally, for these religious officials to *repent* of those feelings of religious superiority which are being used to ‘jus- tify’ such bloodshed? Surely, for the media to publish the Truth about the Revelation and Doctrine of the "resurrection of the dead"–thus striking at the foun- dation of these feelings of religious superiority–should NOT be ex- pected to *increase* this violence and bloodshed. Thus, I urge anyone reading this note to contact the editors of "Time", "Newsweek", and "U.S. News & World Report" to impress upon them the im- portance of publishing, this Easter season, the Truth about the cruci- fixion of Jesus–namely, that Jesus contradicted the Jewish religious establishment’s official interpretation of the Doctrine of the "resur- rection of the dead"; teaching that It was, instead, similar to the Buddhist Doctrine of ‘Rebirth’. See my web page for a detailed description of the Knowledge that has been rejected and the Teaching that has been forgotten by the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religious officials (cf. Hosea 4:4-6 and Daniel 12:9-10): http://www.deadseanaghammadiresearch.com Michael Cecil

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