Martin Luther's Nazi Legacy

Question:

~~~snip a load of utter rubbish~~~ So he made up the whole "I have a dream" bit you moron!

I was talking about Martin Luther the German [ 1483 - 1546 ]. Now who is the uninformed one?

Response:

~~~snip a load of utter rubbish~~~ So he made up the whole "I have a dream" bit you moron!

Response:

Here are some of the writings of Martin Luther on how to deal with the Jews of Germany : When Martin Luther was asked whether it is morally justifiable to box the ears of a Jew , he said " Certainly . I for one would smack him on the jaw . Were I able , I would knock him down and stab him in my anger . It is lawful , according to both the human and the divine law , to kill a robber ; then it is even more permissible to slay a blasphemer ". " If I had to baptise a Jew , I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe , hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words ‘ I baptise thee in the name of Abraham ‘ ". " We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them ". " The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves ". " Set fire to their synagogues and schools ; and what will not burn , heap earth over it so that no man may see a stone or relic of them forever ". Pages 50 – 51 in "http://www.tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuther-HitlersSpiritualAncestor…." , Martin Luther ~ Hitler’s Spiritual Ancestor , by Peter F. Wiener , Author of German For the Scientist , and German With Tears , Hutchinson & Co. ( Publishers ) Ltd . London : New York : Melbourne : Sydney . The work was put into electronic format by Patsy Jackson for Tentmaker Publications – 118 Walnut – Hermann , Missouri , 65041 , U.S.A. See also Who voted for the Nazis?(electoral history of the National Socialist German Workers Party) , by Dick Geary , Professor of Modern History at the University of Nottingham and the author of Hitler and Nazism ( Routledge 1993 ) , in History Today , October 1998 , in association with The Gale Group and LookSmart , 2000 , "http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1373/n10_v48/21207858/print.jhtml" Martin Luther the German [ born 1483 and died in 1546 ], published in 1543 an essay called " On the Jews and Their Lies ," in which Luther urged that Jewish synagogues be burnt , because most of the Jews refused to convert to Christianity on a large scale , which Martin Luther hoped would be a sign of the return of Jesus Christ in the near future . This essay, as also the other printed and published essays of Martin Luther, were often reprinted, studied, taught, and preached in Germany, at least before Germany’s final defeat in the Second World War in 1945 .In 1938 , in Nazi Germany , on Kristallnacht [ Crystalnight , or The Night of Broken Glass ] , many Jewish synagogues were burnt , as Martin Luther had urged in his often reprinted and preached 1543 essay called " On the Jews and Their Lies ." This essay was often preached by most German Lutheran pastors , with a few exceptions , until May 8, 1945 . After the German federal election of the 5th of March , 1933 , Alfred von Hugenberg , the leader of the mainly Lutheran laypersons’ [ non - pastors ] " German National Peoples’ Party ," along with Baron Franz von Papen , leader of the mainly Catholic laypersons’ " Center Party ," formed a coalition with the Nazis , in order to outvote the Communists and Social Democrats . By Lutheran laypersons’ or non – pastors , we should remember that Martin Luther called Christians " the priesthood of believers ." The Nazis gained about 44% of the seats in the lower house of the German federal parliament , the Reichstag , in the German federal election of the 5th of March , 1933 . On the 14th of July , 1933 , all political parties except the Nazi party were prohibited in Nazi Germany . However , Alfred von Hugenberg , who died in 1951 , and who was the leader of the mainly Lutheran laypersons’ "German National Peoples’ Party ," continued to be a member of the German Reichstag until 1945 , even when all political parties except the Nazi Party were banned in Germany after the 14th of July , 1933. From 1929 – 1933 , the Nazis gained the largest votes in German state elections where the Lutherans formed the majority of the states’ population . Between 1929 – 1933 , these following German states , all of them with a mainly Lutheran population , had state governments where the Nazis were either coalition leaders or partners : Braunschweig [ Brunswick in English ] , Mecklenburg , Mecklenburg – Strelitz , Lubeck , Thuringia , Saxony – Anhalt , Harzburg , Oldenburg , and Lippe . Only the German state of Schleswig – Holstein , another mainly Lutheran state , had a state legislature between 1929 – 1933 where the Nazis had a majority of the seats in that state legislature . Schleswig – Holstein had been taken from Denmark by Germany in a war that had broken out in 1864 and again in 1866, although in 1920 the northern third of Schleswig was returned to Denmark after a League of Nations sponsored referendum had been held on the issue as one of the terms of the Versailles Peace Treaty with Germany . The Nazis gained their lowest votes in the rural and mainly Catholic areas of southern Bavaria , while they gained more votes in the northern parts of Bavaria , also known as Franconia , an area of Germany that has a mixed Catholic and Lutheran population . One of the reasons why Germany , out of all other nations , had the Nazis come to power during the economic Great Depression of 1929 – 1939 , was because Germany lacked a strong democratic tradition . Between 1850 – 1919 , the German state of Brandenburg – Prussia had a three class electoral law , although the state of Bavaria had introduced universal adult male suffrage in 1904 , followed by Baden – Wurttemberg [ formerly Swabia ] , in 1906 . The German state governments nominated the members of the German federal upper house , the Bundesrat , which , along with the German Chancellor and Kaiser , had final veto powers over the German federal lower house , the Bundestag . The German Catholics are found mostly in the southern , south-eastern , and western parts of Germany , and in March 1938 German – speaking Austria was " forcibly " annexed by Nazi Germany . Martin Luther the German [ born 1483 - died 1546 ] , basing his views on St. Paul’s epistle to the Romans ch. 13 : 1 – 7 , urged that the German peasant revolt of 1525 be brutally suppressed by the German knights , in his 1525 printed and published essay called "Against the Thieving and Murdering Hordes of Peasants ." St . Paul the Apostle wrote in his epistle to the Romans , chapter 13 : 1 – 7 , that all authorities who wield the sword are appointed by God to enforce the law . The word "authorities" is a plural word however . In the U.S.A. , the adult male citizen voters , who have the constitutional authority to elect their politicians , also have the constitutional authority under the Second Bill of Rights to bear arms as members of a well regulated state militia , for example , the U.S. National Guard , which the U.S. Supreme Court interpreted as being a safeguard intended by the American law makers of the 1780’s to protect the states from any likelihood that the U.S. federal government would become dictatorial , although the state , county , and municipal governments are just as likely to become dictatorial , as the southern U.S. states often treated their black , or very dark brown minorities , in a dictatorial manner . However , I still believe that rioters should be dispersed by firing rubber coated metal bullets into their legs , stomachs , and chests , with the use of scopes for accurate aiming and semi – automatic rifles to control the rate of fire . The safety of the riot police comes before the safety of rioters , because peaceful and legal protesters lose many civil rights when they decide to become violent rioters and cowardly mob tyrants . Martin Luther’s views on predestination and God’s foreknowledge are set out in his 1525 published essay called "On the Bondage of the Will." Although free will exists according to 1 Timothy 2 : 1 – 4 and 2 Peter 3 : 9 , since these two references from the New Testament says that God wants everyone to be saved , God , who is eternal , with no beginning and no end , and who is all knowing , knows what choices people will make in the future [ see the Acts of the Apostles 15 : 18 ] . God is not the author of evil , but Satan , the fallen angel , is . Personally , I have up to a certain extent great admiration for Girolamo Savonarola [ 1452 - 1498 ] and Cornelius Otto Jansen [ 1585 - 1638 ] . From faith and the gift of God’s grace, good works flow [ see Ephesians 2 : 8 - 10 by St. Paul the Apostle ]. Repenting out of fear or attrition is acceptable according to Proverbs 13 : 13 , Proverbs 14 : 26 – 27, and Proverbs 19 : 23 , but repenting out of contrition or genuine sorrow is even better . Most of the Japanese are Mahayana Buddhists and Shintoists at the same time . The Mahayana Buddhists are the Protestants of Buddhism , as opposed to the Theravada Buddhists , who are the Catholics of Buddhism . The Mahayana Buddhists believe that members of the Buddhist laity , as well as members of the Buddhist monkhood , can achieve nirvana more quickly . The Mahayana Buddhists also tend to place greater emphasis on the sincerity of a believer’s faith , the relationship between motives and methods , and the role of divine grace , then Theravada Buddhists do . In 1925 universal adult male suffrage or voting rights was introduced for national elections for the first time in the history of Japan , although by 1941 Japan had become a one – party state military dictatorship . Since 1911 , the martial art of judo , which traces its ancestry to the samurai martial art of jujitsu , has been a compulsory subject in Japanese schools for students above the age of 8 years , although it was banned as a compulsory subject in Japanese schools from 1945 – 1951 , after which it was again reintroduced as a compulsory school subject from the age of 8 years and upwards . After 1945 , the requirement of all able – bodied Japanese males over the age of 21 to do three years of compulsory military service , was abolished , although the martial arts still figure prominently in the training of … read more »

Response:

The True Colors of Casa Alianza

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The True Colors of Casa Alianza Another Bruce, Another Sexual Exploitation Scandal [In the 1980s there was Covenant House, run by Father Bruce Ritter, which purported to help street kids, and raked in dough by the millions. Bruce Ritter was also a pal of the old CIA (the William Casey crowd) and did his bit to help bring down the Sandinista Revolution by supporting Catholic CIA fronts designed to destabilize Nicaragua. Ritter finally got his comeuppance some time before he died of cancer, when three male "street kids" accused him of sexual abuse. Covenant House also spawned Latin American branches, known as Casa Alianza.  They are active in Brazil, Costa Rica, Honduras and probably (still) in Nicaragua. Just as Covenant House did, Casa Alianza managed to survive the scandals of Father Bruce and has become generally regarded as respectable. NY Transfer has never distributed their literature -- partly because of the child sexual abuse scandal, but also because of their connections with what was undoubtedly a CIA front organization.

Here are some of the writings of Martin Luther on how to deal with the Jews of Germany : When Martin Luther was asked whether it is morally justifiable to box the ears of a Jew , he said " Certainly . I for one would smack him on the jaw . Were I able , I would knock him down and stab him in my anger . It is lawful , according to both the human and the divine law , to kill a robber ; then it is even more permissible to slay a blasphemer ". " If I had to baptise a Jew , I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe , hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words ' I baptise thee in the name of Abraham ' ". " We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them ". " The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves ". " Set fire to their synagogues and schools ; and what will not burn , heap earth over it so that no man may see a stone or relic of them forever ". Pages 50 - 51 in "http://www.tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuther-HitlersSpiritualAncestor...." , Martin Luther ~ Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor , by Peter F. Wiener , Author of German For the Scientist , and German With Tears , Hutchinson & Co. ( Publishers ) Ltd . London : New York : Melbourne : Sydney . The work was put into electronic format by Patsy Jackson for Tentmaker Publications - 118 Walnut - Hermann , Missouri , 65041 , U.S.A. See also Who voted for the Nazis?(electoral history of the National Socialist German Workers Party) , by Dick Geary , Professor of Modern History at the University of Nottingham and the author of Hitler and Nazism ( Routledge 1993 ) , in History Today , October 1998 , in association with The Gale Group and LookSmart , 2000 , "http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1373/n10_v48/21207858/print.jhtml" Martin Luther the German [ born 1483 and died in 1546 ], published in 1543 an essay called " On the Jews and Their Lies ," in which Luther urged that Jewish synagogues be burnt , because most of the Jews refused to convert to Christianity on a large scale , which Martin Luther hoped would be a sign of the return of Jesus Christ in the near future . This essay, as also the other printed and published essays of Martin Luther, were often reprinted, studied, taught, and preached in Germany, at least before Germany’s final defeat in the Second World War in 1945 .In 1938 , in Nazi Germany , on Kristallnacht [ Crystalnight , or The Night of Broken Glass ] , many Jewish synagogues were burnt , as Martin Luther had urged in his often reprinted and preached 1543 essay called " On the Jews and Their Lies ." This essay was often preached by most German Lutheran pastors , with a few exceptions , until May 8, 1945 . After the German federal election of the 5th of March , 1933 , Alfred von Hugenberg , the leader of the mainly Lutheran laypersons’ [ non - pastors ] " German National Peoples’ Party ," along with Baron Franz von Papen , leader of the mainly Catholic laypersons’ " Center Party ," formed a coalition with the Nazis , in order to outvote the Communists and Social Democrats . By Lutheran laypersons’ or non – pastors , we should remember that Martin Luther called Christians " the priesthood of believers ." The Nazis gained about 44% of the seats in the lower house of the German federal parliament , the Reichstag , in the German federal election of the 5th of March , 1933 . On the 14th of July , 1933 , all political parties except the Nazi party were prohibited in Nazi Germany . However , Alfred von Hugenberg , who died in 1951 , and who was the leader of the mainly Lutheran laypersons’ "German National Peoples’ Party ," continued to be a member of the German Reichstag until 1945 , even when all political parties except the Nazi Party were banned in Germany after the 14th of July , 1933. From 1929 – 1933 , the Nazis gained the largest votes in German state elections where the Lutherans formed the majority of the states’ population . Between 1929 – 1933 , these following German states , all of them with a mainly Lutheran population , had state governments where the Nazis were either coalition leaders or partners : Braunschweig [ Brunswick in English ] , Mecklenburg , Mecklenburg – Strelitz , Lubeck , Thuringia , Saxony – Anhalt , Harzburg , Oldenburg , and Lippe . Only the German state of Schleswig – Holstein , another mainly Lutheran state , had a state legislature between 1929 – 1933 where the Nazis had a majority of the seats in that state legislature . Schleswig – Holstein had been taken from Denmark by Germany in a war that had broken out in 1864 and again in 1866, although in 1920 the northern third of Schleswig was returned to Denmark after a League of Nations sponsored referendum had been held on the issue as one of the terms of the Versailles Peace Treaty with Germany . The Nazis gained their lowest votes in the rural and mainly Catholic areas of southern Bavaria , while they gained more votes in the northern parts of Bavaria , also known as Franconia , an area of Germany that has a mixed Catholic and Lutheran population . One of the reasons why Germany , out of all other nations , had the Nazis come to power during the economic Great Depression of 1929 – 1939 , was because Germany lacked a strong democratic tradition . Between 1850 – 1919 , the German state of Brandenburg – Prussia had a three class electoral law , although the state of Bavaria had introduced universal adult male suffrage in 1904 , followed by Baden – Wurttemberg [ formerly Swabia ] , in 1906 . The German state governments nominated the members of the German federal upper house , the Bundesrat , which , along with the German Chancellor and Kaiser , had final veto powers over the German federal lower house , the Bundestag . The German Catholics are found mostly in the southern , south-eastern , and western parts of Germany , and in March 1938 German – speaking Austria was " forcibly " annexed by Nazi Germany . Martin Luther the German [ born 1483 - died 1546 ] , basing his views on St. Paul’s epistle to the Romans ch. 13 : 1 – 7 , urged that the German peasant revolt of 1525 be brutally suppressed by the German knights , in his 1525 printed and published essay called "Against the Thieving and Murdering Hordes of Peasants ." St . Paul the Apostle wrote in his epistle to the Romans , chapter 13 : 1 – 7 , that all authorities who wield the sword are appointed by God to enforce the law . The word "authorities" is a plural word however . In the U.S.A. , the adult male citizen voters , who have the constitutional authority to elect their politicians , also have the constitutional authority under the Second Bill of Rights to bear arms as members of a well regulated state militia , for example , the U.S. National Guard , which the U.S. Supreme Court interpreted as being a safeguard intended by the American law makers of the 1780’s to protect the states from any likelihood that the U.S. federal government would become dictatorial , although the state , county , and municipal governments are just as likely to become dictatorial , as the southern U.S. states often treated their black , or very dark brown minorities , in a dictatorial manner . However , I still believe that rioters should be dispersed by firing rubber coated metal bullets into their legs , stomachs , and chests , with the use of scopes for accurate aiming and semi – automatic rifles to control the rate of fire . The safety of the riot police comes before the safety of rioters , because peaceful and legal protesters lose many civil rights when they decide to become violent rioters and cowardly mob tyrants . Martin Luther’s views on predestination and God’s foreknowledge are set out in his 1525 published essay called "On the Bondage of the Will." Although free will exists according to 1 Timothy 2 : 1 – 4 and 2 Peter 3 : 9 , since these two references from the New Testament says that God wants everyone to be saved , God , who is eternal , with no beginning and no end , and who is all knowing , knows what choices people will make in the future [ see the Acts of the Apostles 15 : 18 ] . God is not the author of evil , but Satan , the fallen angel , is . Personally , I have up to a certain extent great admiration for Girolamo Savonarola [ 1452 - 1498 ] and Cornelius Otto Jansen [ 1585 - 1638 ] . From faith and the gift of God’s grace, good works flow [ see Ephesians 2 : 8 - 10 by St. Paul the Apostle ]. Repenting out of fear or attrition is acceptable according to Proverbs 13 : 13 , Proverbs 14 : 26 – 27, and Proverbs 19 : 23 , but repenting out of contrition or genuine sorrow is even better . Most of the Japanese are Mahayana Buddhists and Shintoists at the same time . The Mahayana Buddhists are the Protestants of Buddhism , as opposed to the Theravada Buddhists , who are the … read more »

Response:

The True Colors of Casa Alianza Another Bruce, Another Sexual Exploitation Scandal [In the 1980s there was Covenant House, run by Father Bruce Ritter, which purported to help street kids, and raked in dough by the millions. Bruce Ritter was also a pal of the old CIA (the William Casey crowd) and did his bit to help bring down the Sandinista Revolution by supporting Catholic CIA fronts designed to destabilize Nicaragua. Ritter finally got his comeuppance some time before he died of cancer, when three male "street kids" accused him of sexual abuse. Covenant House also spawned Latin American branches, known as Casa Alianza.  They are active in Brazil, Costa Rica, Honduras and probably (still) in Nicaragua. Just as Covenant House did, Casa Alianza managed to survive the scandals of Father Bruce and has become generally regarded as respectable. NY Transfer has never distributed their literature -- partly because of the child sexual abuse scandal, but also because of their connections with what was undoubtedly a CIA front organization. Casa Alianza has its own Bruce -- a dude named Bruce Harris, who's apparently not a priest. Now he's been accused of exploiting a young man of 19 who was once of his "rescuees."  Unlike Father Bruce, this Bruce has admitted what he claims was a "15-minute mistake." Let's hope Casa Alianza gets more than 15 minutes of infamy. -NY Transfer] Reuters – September 18, 2004 http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=6272099 UK Youth Advocate Admits ‘15-Minute Mistake’ TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras (Reuters) – The British head of a Latin American street kids’ charity, fired after being accused of paying a Honduran teen-ager for sex, acknowledged on Saturday that he had made a "15-minute mistake." Bruce Harris, who was awarded the Order of the British Empire in 2000 for his work protecting homeless children in Central America, was dismissed Friday by the international child welfare group Covenant House. The charity said it acted against Harris, director of its Latin American arm Casa Alianza since 1989, "because he recently paid a 19-year-old Honduran boy for sexual favors." While prostitution is not illegal in Honduras and the age of consent is 18, Harris has fought for the rights of homeless youths in the region and campaigned against sex tourists. "I have never been someone that hides behind lies, and so I take responsibility, as I always have, for my actions, correct or incorrect. I don’t want the children that Casa Alianza serves to pay for my private life," Harris said in an e-mail to Reuters. "I am being judged on my 15 years of service to children for a specific, 15-minute mistake. I do not deny that it was my mistake in my time and my personal life," he wrote. He said he would place himself "at the orders" of the authorities. Harris sent a note to colleagues on Sept. 16 saying he had decided to resign "and take some time for myself and my family." He said he had submitted his resignation to Casa Alianza two days earlier. Honduran Security Minister Oscar Alvarez said Saturday that Honduras, Guatemala and Costa Rica were opening probes into Harris’s activities. "We are talking to the security ministers of Guatemala and Costa Rica and we are going to investigate whether this man had improper, deviant relations with other youths," Alvarez said. A recent British documentary showed Harris’ efforts to combat child prostitution in Costa Rica, including working undercover as a customer in a child brothel to gather evidence. Copyright Reuters 2004. All rights reserved                                *** AP via International Herald Tribune – Sept 20, 2004 http://www.iht.com/articles/539545.html Group’s director fired after admitting scandal TECUCIGALPA, Honduras–A group that has been praised for rescuing children from prostitution has fired its director amid allegations he paid for sex with a 19-year-old Honduran man. Bruce Harris, the Central America director of Casa Alianza, admitted that he recently paid for sexual favors from a man once sheltered by the group, according to a statement issued Friday by the organization’s parent, Covenant House of New York.                                 *** Prensa Latina, Havana http://www.plenglish.com Central America Questions Work of Humanitarian Organization San Jose, Sep 20 (Prensa Latina) Some governments in Central America are questioning the work of the humanitarian organization, Casa Alianza, after learning that former regional director British Bruce Harris paid a Honduran youngster for sexual favors. The scandal, confirmed by Harris, has generated strong criticism over the organization’s humanitarian work in Latin America, Costa Rican on-line press reported. In Costa Rica, where the organization has its regional office, Harris was seen as a defender of children’s rights, so the issue has caused outrage and surprise. Costa Rican authorities are investigating the scandal and, if allegations are true, Honduras will ask for Harris’ extradition from Costa Rica, where he lives with his wife and two children. sus/ccs/rma Copyright (c) 2004 Prensa Latina, SA. All rights reserved. http://tania.blythe-systems.com/pipermail/nytr/Week-of-Mon-20040920/0… —   NY Transfer News Collective   *   A Service of Blythe Systems           Since 1985 – Information for the Rest of Us               339 Lafayette St., New York, NY 10012  http://www.blythe.org     List Archives: http://tania.blythe-systems.com/pipermail/nytr/

Response:

Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Evilrot rote: I just wanted to certify that what Norbu says below is exactly the truth as I have read and heard it myself.   I also read Diana Mukpo’s writings, and remember the quotes he mentions below.  Furthermore, Norbu doesn’t lie, and he is a longtime poster to these boards, trusted in his knowledge.  LSPA has more than a few things incorrect.   I know of several Trungpa students and all speak of him with great respect and reverence.      and, that’s all becuz they’re all afraid that the boogie-man      will get them if they don’t

Not so, Cuppie.  In fact did you read what Hal Hesse said about Trungpa?  I reposted a bunch of stuff from different individuals who knew Trungpa, and Hal made some very interesting comment.   I agree with what he said. — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox")

Response:

Trungpa Rinpoche was a severe alcoholic for decades who deteriorated to the point that he was not rational, and often comatose, for the last decade or so of his life. Some of his later, Shambhala-oriented, writings were written just after he came out of a coma or a psychotic fugue.  I have lived in the Shambhala community for years, and had this from some of his Kusung, or personal assistants. Trungpa Rinpoche died as a result of severe cyrrhosis of the liver–the other organs shut down or lost function for years,

His heart and brain were particularly affected, by the way.  The brain damage (from the liver failure) is what made him comatose and psychotic. as a result of the cyrrhosis, and this loss of major organ function is what killed him.

In order to avoid talking to people of objectionable moral character, I’ll confine a follow up point or to to this post. He left no instructions as to a re-incarnation, if you believe in such things (as a saved believer in the Lord Jesus Christ I  do *not*, though I had several decades of Buddhist experience) beyond a *viva voce* remark that if he had to come back, he thought he’d be a Japanese engineer. He left no written recognition instructions, and his rather bizarre will and testament said merely "I will be haunting you." As an aside: there IS a reincarnation of Trunpa Rinpoche (i.e. a 12th Trungpa Rinpoche), but he is OUTSIDE THE CONTROL OF THE SHAMBHALA sangha (run by Trungpa’s first son, now known variously as "Mipham Rinpoche" and "The Sakyong").

He was given the former title by Penor Rinpoche (did I  REALLY call him the "head" of the nyingma? I think not….) who was a bigwig in the sect. Penor (Pema Norbu)  also recognized as reincarnated lamas Steven Segall (of the movies) Jetsunma (google search for this infamous nut) and Trungpa’s first son, the head of your cult. The re-incarnation lives in Tibet, at Surmang monastery, where he was installed after being recognized i think.  Surmang was the monastery and lands owned by the Trungpas.  When Chogyam Trungpa fled Tibet, he left a number of dependents and monks/lamas behind, and these "held down the fort" at Surmang and have endured the Chinese yoke. Quite a contrast to Trungpa’s high-living hard-drinking, 15-year-old-

#### ing lifestyle. (one of his secondary wives was 15).

I should not have used the cuss word, but Trungpa was a polygamist. One of his five (I know 2 well, both have married legally since) secondary wives was 15 years old when she started the affair with Trungpa, who was already legally married to another woman. She had red hair, did this secondary wife. She was 15, and the affair started when Trungpa was almost dead from the cyrrhosis of the liver. The "secondary wives" existed alongside his ONE LEGAL WIFE–Diana Mukpo, nee Pybus. I’ve heard Diana was 16 when she met Trungpa, but any confusion of her with the SECONDARY WIFE referred to belies ignorance (or wilfull obfuscation) of the basic facts.  Diana Mukpo nee Pybus, btw, is a commoner–NOT in the English Peerage.  The Shambhala cult calls her "Lady Diana" and tries to inflate her social importance in England.  Similarly, the Shambhala cult refers to the mother of Trungpa’s first recognized son (The Sakyong, or "Mipham Rinpoche," who heads their cult now) as "Lady Kunchok." "Lady Kunchok" was a nun, and Trungpa a monk, when they concieved their first son.  The cult calls her Trungpa’s "consort." The Sakyong is pretty open about this arrangement. So you’ve got: A legal wife (Diana Mukpo, mother of 2 children) A Consort (mother of the Sakyong, the first son) and 5 Secondary Wives (one of whom was 15 when the affair started). I am not surprised that, when someone fails my tests in which I refer to or parody a name, they accuse me of lying or impersonating. As a final point, and back to the issue: the monks in Surmang were playing a piece of lama-politics, getting back at the rich Americans who had left them to starve and suffer, when they recognized a tulku, don’t you think? After all, when any of those lamas left, wasn’t it like Dr. Strangelove’s plan to live in Mineshafts when the commies came?  Take the women and the top officials and those in favor–IF POSSIBLE– and leave everyone else to suffer.

Response:

"Login with Secure Password Authentication"

I’m crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan. Trungpa was a human being.  We are all human beings.  We say wise things and foolish things.  We do wise things and foolish things. Don’t be so damn judgemental Tom.

I’m not really bad, I’m just written that way.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Re: Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized   Reply to: [1]"SwAmI"   Organization: NTL   Newsgroups:          [2]talk.religion.buddhism,          [3]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,          [4]alt.religion.buddhism,          [5]alt.magick,          [6]alt.religion.buddhism.ris-med   Followup to: [7]newsgroups   References: "Login with Secure Password Authentication" I’m crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan. Trungpa was a human being.  We are all human beings.  We say wise things and foolish things.  We do wise things and foolish things. Don’t be so damn judgemental Tom. Tom told it like it is. I was just messing.

      well, yu certainly did make a mess of my on-going       critique of Tibetan Vajrayanism  –  next time,       don’t be so frivolous, or we’ll take away yer       secret decoder ring!    :( – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([16]http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Login with Secure Password Authentication" I’m crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan. Trungpa was a human being.  We are all human beings.  We say wise things and foolish things.  We do wise things and foolish things. Don’t be so damn judgemental Tom. Tom told it like it is.

I was just messing. — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Trungpa Rinpoche was a severe alcoholic for decades who deteriorated to the point that he was not rational, and often comatose, for the last decade or so of his life. Some of his later, Shambhala-oriented, writings were written just after he came out of a coma or a psychotic fugue.  I have lived in the Shambhala community for years, and had this from some of his Kusung, or personal assistants. Trungpa Rinpoche died as a result of severe cyrrhosis of the liver–the other organs shut down or lost function for years, His heart and brain were particularly affected, by the way.  The brain damage (from the liver failure) is what made him comatose and psychotic.   what’s your excuse? as a result of the cyrrhosis, and this loss of major organ function is what killed him. In order to avoid talking to people of objectionable moral character, I’ll confine a follow up point or to to this post.   then you will never again speak to a single soul, for we are all flawed and glorious in different ways. what you see as a weed may be medicene or food for another. judgment is mine say the lord… He left no instructions as to a re-incarnation, if you believe in such things (as a saved believer in the Lord Jesus Christ I  do *not*, though I had several decades of Buddhist experience) beyond a *viva voce* remark that if he had to come back, he thought he’d be a Japanese engineer. He left no written recognition instructions, and his rather bizarre will and testament said merely "I will be haunting you." As an aside: there IS a reincarnation of Trunpa Rinpoche (i.e. a 12th Trungpa Rinpoche), but he is OUTSIDE THE CONTROL OF THE SHAMBHALA sangha (run by Trungpa’s first son, now known variously as "Mipham Rinpoche" and "The Sakyong"). He was given the former title by Penor Rinpoche (did I  REALLY call him the "head" of the nyingma? I think not….) who was a bigwig in the sect. Penor (Pema Norbu)  also recognized as reincarnated lamas Steven Segall (of the movies) Jetsunma (google search for this infamous nut) and Trungpa’s first son, the head of your cult.  cult? if you look up the word in a dictionary you will find the description of the basis and form of the christian religion incredibly more so than buddhism. it has it’s over abundant strutcure in some areas, but we don’t worship dieties, or buddha…that is a misconception.

   is that why American citizen Vajrayanis, followers of    the Dalai Lama, are on the Homeland Security "watch list"? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -such as people getting freaked over the thought of thinking communion bread is really jesus body…it’s not. you apparently have misconceptions, now that you know…what will you choose to do with them? The re-incarnation lives in Tibet, at Surmang monastery, where he was installed after being recognized i think.  Surmang was the monastery and lands owned by the Trungpas.  When Chogyam Trungpa fled Tibet, he left a number of dependents and monks/lamas behind, and these "held down the fort" at Surmang and have endured the Chinese yoke. Quite a contrast to Trungpa’s high-living hard-drinking, 15-year-old- #### ing lifestyle. (one of his secondary wives was 15). I should not have used the cuss word, but Trungpa was a polygamist. One of his five (I know 2 well, both have married legally since) secondary wives was 15 years old when she started the affair with Trungpa, who was already legally married to another woman. She had red hair, did this secondary wife. She was 15, and the affair started when Trungpa was almost dead from the cyrrhosis of the liver. The "secondary wives" existed alongside his ONE LEGAL WIFE–Diana Mukpo, nee Pybus. I’ve heard Diana was 16 when she met Trungpa, but any confusion of her with the SECONDARY WIFE referred to belies ignorance (or wilfull obfuscation) of the basic facts.  Diana Mukpo nee Pybus, btw, is a commoner–NOT in the English Peerage.  The Shambhala cult calls her "Lady Diana" and tries to inflate her social importance in England.  Similarly, the Shambhala cult refers to the mother of Trungpa’s first recognized son (The Sakyong, or "Mipham Rinpoche," who heads their cult now) as "Lady Kunchok." "Lady Kunchok" was a nun, and Trungpa a monk, when they concieved their first son.  The cult calls her Trungpa’s "consort." The Sakyong is pretty open about this arrangement. So you’ve got: A legal wife (Diana Mukpo, mother of 2 children) A Consort (mother of the Sakyong, the first son) and 5 Secondary Wives (one of whom was 15 when the affair started). I am not surprised that, when someone fails my tests in which I refer to or parody a name, they accuse me of lying or impersonating. As a final point, and back to the issue: the monks in Surmang were playing a piece of lama-politics, getting back at the rich Americans who had left them to starve and suffer, when they recognized a tulku, don’t you think? After all, when any of those lamas left, wasn’t it like Dr. Strangelove’s plan to live in Mineshafts when the commies came?  Take the women and the top officials and those in favor–IF POSSIBLE– and leave everyone else to suffer.   i have a feeling you’ve been nursing your misconceptions, like some emotional grudge. all i can do is point it out to you, and see what type of character you have. you are on a slippery slope of carrying bitterness in your heart. love, pema

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Trungpa Rinpoche was a severe alcoholic for decades who deteriorated to the point that he was not rational, and often comatose, for the last decade or so of his life. Some of his later, Shambhala-oriented, writings were written just after he came out of a coma or a psychotic fugue.  I have lived in the Shambhala community for years, and had this from some of his Kusung, or personal assistants. Trungpa Rinpoche died as a result of severe cyrrhosis of the liver–the other organs shut down or lost function for years, His heart and brain were particularly affected, by the way.  The brain damage (from the liver failure) is what made him comatose and psychotic.

   what’s your excuse? as a result of the cyrrhosis, and this loss of major organ function is what killed him. In order to avoid talking to people of objectionable moral character, I’ll confine a follow up point or to to this post.

   then you will never again speak to a single soul, for we are all flawed and glorious in different ways. what you see as a weed may be medicene or food for another. judgment is mine say the lord… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He left no instructions as to a re-incarnation, if you believe in such things (as a saved believer in the Lord Jesus Christ I  do *not*, though I had several decades of Buddhist experience) beyond a *viva voce* remark that if he had to come back, he thought he’d be a Japanese engineer. He left no written recognition instructions, and his rather bizarre will and testament said merely "I will be haunting you." As an aside: there IS a reincarnation of Trunpa Rinpoche (i.e. a 12th Trungpa Rinpoche), but he is OUTSIDE THE CONTROL OF THE SHAMBHALA sangha (run by Trungpa’s first son, now known variously as "Mipham Rinpoche" and "The Sakyong"). He was given the former title by Penor Rinpoche (did I  REALLY call him the "head" of the nyingma? I think not….) who was a bigwig in the sect. Penor (Pema Norbu)  also recognized as reincarnated lamas Steven Segall (of the movies) Jetsunma (google search for this infamous nut) and Trungpa’s first son, the head of your cult.

  cult? if you look up the word in a dictionary you will find the description of the basis and form of the christian religion incredibly more so than buddhism. it has it’s over abundant strutcure in some areas, but we don’t worship dieties, or buddha…that is a misconception. such as people getting freaked over the thought of thinking communion bread is really jesus body…it’s not. you apparently have misconceptions, now that you know…what will you choose to do with them? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The re-incarnation lives in Tibet, at Surmang monastery, where he was installed after being recognized i think.  Surmang was the monastery and lands owned by the Trungpas.  When Chogyam Trungpa fled Tibet, he left a number of dependents and monks/lamas behind, and these "held down the fort" at Surmang and have endured the Chinese yoke. Quite a contrast to Trungpa’s high-living hard-drinking, 15-year-old- #### ing lifestyle. (one of his secondary wives was 15). I should not have used the cuss word, but Trungpa was a polygamist. One of his five (I know 2 well, both have married legally since) secondary wives was 15 years old when she started the affair with Trungpa, who was already legally married to another woman. She had red hair, did this secondary wife. She was 15, and the affair started when Trungpa was almost dead from the cyrrhosis of the liver. The "secondary wives" existed alongside his ONE LEGAL WIFE–Diana Mukpo, nee Pybus. I’ve heard Diana was 16 when she met Trungpa, but any confusion of her with the SECONDARY WIFE referred to belies ignorance (or wilfull obfuscation) of the basic facts.  Diana Mukpo nee Pybus, btw, is a commoner–NOT in the English Peerage.  The Shambhala cult calls her "Lady Diana" and tries to inflate her social importance in England.  Similarly, the Shambhala cult refers to the mother of Trungpa’s first recognized son (The Sakyong, or "Mipham Rinpoche," who heads their cult now) as "Lady Kunchok." "Lady Kunchok" was a nun, and Trungpa a monk, when they concieved their first son.  The cult calls her Trungpa’s "consort." The Sakyong is pretty open about this arrangement. So you’ve got: A legal wife (Diana Mukpo, mother of 2 children) A Consort (mother of the Sakyong, the first son) and 5 Secondary Wives (one of whom was 15 when the affair started). I am not surprised that, when someone fails my tests in which I refer to or parody a name, they accuse me of lying or impersonating. As a final point, and back to the issue: the monks in Surmang were playing a piece of lama-politics, getting back at the rich Americans who had left them to starve and suffer, when they recognized a tulku, don’t you think? After all, when any of those lamas left, wasn’t it like Dr. Strangelove’s plan to live in Mineshafts when the commies came?  Take the women and the top officials and those in favor–IF POSSIBLE– and leave everyone else to suffer.

   i have a feeling you’ve been nursing your misconceptions, like some emotional grudge. all i can do is point it out to you, and see what type of character you have. you are on a slippery slope of carrying bitterness in your heart. love, pema

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Re: Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized   Reply to: [1]Login with Secure Password Authentication   Newsgroups:          [2]talk.religion.buddhism,          [3]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,          [4]alt.religion.buddhism,          [5]alt.magick,          [6]alt.religion.buddhism.ris-med   Followup to: [7]newsgroups   References:     Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!    Ha! I think the boys were right, cup: you need some psychiatric help.     well, yer crazy if yu think i’m crazy;  and i’m not real     crazy about yu, either            (i bet yer really Norbu in disguise, huh)

he can’t be me, kitten, cuz i’ve never thought you were ‘crazy’ in the least. You defend Theravada Buddhadhamma as you see it from ‘corruptions’… i think sometimes yr wrong sometimes right, but i admire your effort to protect the dhamma 1000%. You dharma hero. norbie heart kitten. now go barf, if y hafta. :p xxox

Response:

"Login with Secure Password Authentication"

I’m crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan. Trungpa was a human being.  We are all human beings.  We say wise things and foolish things.  We do wise things and foolish things. Don’t be so damn judgemental Tom.

Tom told it like it is. I have known people very well who were Trungpa’s students.   The man was incredible.   His books are the best.  Human beings can be brilliant and still make mistakes. — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox")

Response:

    Evilrot rote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Login with Secure Password Authentication" I’m crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan. Trungpa was a human being.  We are all human beings.  We say wise things and foolish things.  We do wise things and foolish things. Don’t be so damn judgemental Tom. Tom told it like it is. I have known people very well who were Trungpa’s students.   The man was incredible.   His books are the best.  Human beings can be brilliant and still make mistakes.

     Trungpa was a raving ego-maniac and a mean exploiter of      other people’s weaknesses – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Regards, Evelyn

Response:

I just wanted to certify that what Norbu says below is exactly the truth as I have read and heard it myself.   I also read Diana Mukpo’s writings, and remember the quotes he mentions below.  Furthermore, Norbu doesn’t lie, and he is a longtime poster to these boards, trusted in his knowledge.  LSPA has more than a few things incorrect.   I know of several Trungpa students and all speak of him with great respect and reverence. — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox")

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip One point at a time, mon petite. And i will address all your points, such as they are. i’m a little disappointed that that’s your great condemnation…give me a **challenge**,  - please – , because you’ve made so many -factual errors- here that it’s like shooting ducks in a barrel. Let’s start with the easy ones (and build up to the elaborately confused ones): 1.a. "On these boards, "norbu tragri" professes to know much of the affairs of the Shambhala sangha,…" No, i have never made any such claim. i have always said that i was nothing more or less than a middling student and no official/un-official spokes-person at all. i did say that if anyone had any complaints i would see what i could do, as i do know how to get in touch with people. Strike One. 1.b. "yet–when I tested him with references to notable people in the Shambhala sangha (e.g. to the personal physician who moved in with Trungpa, to one of Chogyam Trungpa’s secondary wives, to the head of the uniformed security force, property managers, heads of retreat centers,etc.) he was ignorant of the allusion. No, you didn’t ‘test’ me; you did not ask me if i knew Mr/Ms X, Y, or Z. You posted under false names making false claims (like being a current kasung, or that all the Acaryas were annoyed with me, etc.), and i told you that your act was shabby and that i didn’t believe your claims, e.g., you refered to the Vidyadhara disrespectfully as "Trungpa" and the Dorje Kasung disrespectfully as "kasung"…Also i study with the Acharayas from time to time and my email addy is right there and i’ve never heard a peep out of any them about what i post. You use false names and you lie and, sadly, you don’t even do a good job of it. Strike Two. 1.c. "It is my impression that "norbu tragri" is a true believer in the Shambhala cult who arrived late on the scene." No, i started reading VCTR around ‘74, and began practicing at the L.A. Dharmadhatu around ‘78. So i came along in the middle-beginning years of his main teaching series, as senior students were beginning to  practice Vajrayogini and before the start of the Sambhala Termas. A student in L.A. wouldn’t know who his Doctor was or the head of the Boulder Dorje Kasung. Strike Three. Total strike out on the first issue. —- 2. a. and b. "The Shambhala cult *added* a Nyingma nondjro and relied on Penor Rinpoche ( a nyingma bigwig) as a political patron, after 1995." No. Following VCTR’s death (and the Regent’s death) H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche (then "head of the Nyingma order") was invited to oversee the Shambhala Sangha because he was the only surviving of VCTR’s two Root Gurus. There could be no-one more natural to guide the sangha. Strike One. And, No. The Nyingma’s traditionally do not have a head/leader/etc; that was a merely political post created by the Tibetan Govnt in Exile. Penor Rinpoche was "it" at the time that Mipham Pinpoche was enthroned as a holder of a Nyingma lineage; Penor Rinpoche’s approval in the name of the Nyingma as a whole was a legal formality. A personal blessing as well. Strike Two. 2.c. "I think they are now distancing even from the Nyingma, perhaps: Penor had his own disgraces, and the Shambhala cult is now shopping around some Drukpa Kagyu lamas from Bhutan." No. The Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche a lineage holder of the Kagyu, Nyingma, Shambhala, and Rime traditions. He is currently studying with Khenpo Namdrol, a student of Penor Rinpoche, on the Guyagarbha Tantra, etc.. Thrangu Rinpoche of the Kagyu has taught the three year retreat at Gampo Abbey for many years as well as giving Mahamudra teachings. H.H.Dilgo Khyentse intoduced various Nyingma teachings and empowerments that are on-going. Tenga Rinpoche has been teaching Chakrasamvara and the six dharmas of Naropa and overseeing the Great Stupa project. Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso has been teaching Mahamudra and related topics for years. And Ponlop Rinpoche has taught in-depth philosophy at the Nithartha Institute as well as at Naropa Institute for many years. and i don’t think you know the history of Drukyul… Strike Three. Total strike out on the secound issue. — 3. a. b. and c.  "…Trungpa’s high-living hard-drinking, 15-year-old-fucking lifestyle. (one of his secondary wives was 15). a. Diana Pybus was 16 when she and a 22 yr old Tibetan exile boy fell in love. (Diana: "Being with him made complete sense to me, in a way that nothing that had come before in my life had. What was extraordinary about it wasn’t the physicality at all. Rather it was the pervasive atmosphere of gentleness and compassion." Chogyam: "Emotion, what is that? Longing for you is something deeper than my impression of you, and the memory could be carved on rock,…somthing substantial…." They were legally married in Scottland. It was 1968 and both were part of the English hippie counter-culture. Her mother objected to the marrige and asked Diana to see a psychiatrist. Diana has said about that: He opened our session by saying, "So your mother tells me you want to be a dropout from society". I replied, "Yes, I do!"  So he said, "Oh, do tell me about it." He was so sympathetic that I felt he was about ready to drop out himself. We had a great talk about Buddhism and other things, and finally he said to me, "You know something, I have to confide in you…Your mother is a very disturbed person. She’s alienated everyone around her and everyone around you. I actually think you’re doing quite fine." So much for your version of a dumb illeagal pre-teen preyed-upon by some old lama. Strike One. (also, i think you might feel a little bit ashamed here for sneering at true love, read the rest and you will see what i mean…) b. Lady Diana Mukpo: "Later, when i started my intensive ‘Dressage’ traning " (Diana Mukpo was the first woman accepted to The Spanish Riding Academy, the pre-eminant school of European formal horseback riding) " I knew that I had to acknowledge the conventional world and some sort of conventional wisdom to make the whole thing work. I tried to keep those two worlds, my marriage and my career, a bit separate, so that i could be accepted in the riding world <on my own merits. On the otherhand, nothing that ever happened in Rinpoche’s world was ever a problem. It was just a bit of a balancing act." …Woooo: Teenage cult zombie **has her own life***, outside of any boodhist whatever. Dang. Strike two for you, she’s still not the dumb victim. c. Lady Diana, concludes the autobiography these quotes are taken from : "It makes me sad to talk about all this, because i miss my husband and nothing will ever replce his presence. But also it gives me great joy. His life was a tremendous gift: to me personally, to all his students, and beyond that, to all of the Western world. What he did, what he said, what he left behind and what will eventually come out of it all – that is such a big gift. We have just begun to unwrap it."  - Diana J. Mukpo 2001   – Strike Three…more like you nuked yourself on this topic. You claim to have been such a close student…but i only studied with Lady Diana for one weekend, and i intuited all that from her about 20 yrs ago, so that when she published this in 2002 it was like hearing from an old friend…. i really do wonder about your claims as to having been such a close and devout student if you’re this clueless… Wait for the next post and the next three strike outs as i cover all the points you have raised with citations, cause you just come off worse and worse… …i’ll even tell you why you’re putting so much time and effort into rehashing your past like this and avoiding what is going on now…might help you heal a bit.   – best,       – n.

Response:

   Evilrot rote: I just wanted to certify that what Norbu says below is exactly the truth as I have read and heard it myself.   I also read Diana Mukpo’s writings, and remember the quotes he mentions below.  Furthermore, Norbu doesn’t lie, and he is a longtime poster to these boards, trusted in his knowledge.  LSPA has more than a few things incorrect.   I know of several Trungpa students and all speak of him with great respect and reverence.

     and, that’s all becuz they’re all afraid that the boogie-man      will get them if they don’t – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Regards, Evelyn <snip One point at a time, mon petite. And i will address all your points, such as they are. i’m a little disappointed that that’s your great condemnation…give me a **challenge**,  - please – , because you’ve made so many -factual errors- here that it’s like shooting ducks in a barrel. Let’s start with the easy ones (and build up to the elaborately confused ones): 1.a. "On these boards, "norbu tragri" professes to know much of the affairs of the Shambhala sangha,…" No, i have never made any such claim. i have always said that i was nothing more or less than a middling student and no official/un-official spokes-person at all. i did say that if anyone had any complaints i would see what i could do, as i do know how to get in touch with people. Strike One. 1.b. "yet–when I tested him with references to notable people in the Shambhala sangha (e.g. to the personal physician who moved in with Trungpa, to one of Chogyam Trungpa’s secondary wives, to the head of the uniformed security force, property managers, heads of retreat centers,etc.) he was ignorant of the allusion. No, you didn’t ‘test’ me; you did not ask me if i knew Mr/Ms X, Y, or Z. You posted under false names making false claims (like being a current kasung, or that all the Acaryas were annoyed with me, etc.), and i told you that your act was shabby and that i didn’t believe your claims, e.g., you refered to the Vidyadhara disrespectfully as "Trungpa" and the Dorje Kasung disrespectfully as "kasung"…Also i study with the Acharayas from time to time and my email addy is right there and i’ve never heard a peep out of any them about what i post. You use false names and you lie and, sadly, you don’t even do a good job of it. Strike Two. 1.c. "It is my impression that "norbu tragri" is a true believer in the Shambhala cult who arrived late on the scene." No, i started reading VCTR around ‘74, and began practicing at the L.A. Dharmadhatu around ‘78. So i came along in the middle-beginning years of his main teaching series, as senior students were beginning to  practice Vajrayogini and before the start of the Sambhala Termas. A student in L.A. wouldn’t know who his Doctor was or the head of the Boulder Dorje Kasung. Strike Three. Total strike out on the first issue. —- 2. a. and b. "The Shambhala cult *added* a Nyingma nondjro and relied on Penor Rinpoche ( a nyingma bigwig) as a political patron, after 1995." No. Following VCTR’s death (and the Regent’s death) H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche (then "head of the Nyingma order") was invited to oversee the Shambhala Sangha because he was the only surviving of VCTR’s two Root Gurus. There could be no-one more natural to guide the sangha. Strike One. And, No. The Nyingma’s traditionally do not have a head/leader/etc; that was a merely political post created by the Tibetan Govnt in Exile. Penor Rinpoche was "it" at the time that Mipham Pinpoche was enthroned as a holder of a Nyingma lineage; Penor Rinpoche’s approval in the name of the Nyingma as a whole was a legal formality. A personal blessing as well. Strike Two. 2.c. "I think they are now distancing even from the Nyingma, perhaps: Penor had his own disgraces, and the Shambhala cult is now shopping around some Drukpa Kagyu lamas from Bhutan." No. The Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche a lineage holder of the Kagyu, Nyingma, Shambhala, and Rime traditions. He is currently studying with Khenpo Namdrol, a student of Penor Rinpoche, on the Guyagarbha Tantra, etc.. Thrangu Rinpoche of the Kagyu has taught the three year retreat at Gampo Abbey for many years as well as giving Mahamudra teachings. H.H.Dilgo Khyentse intoduced various Nyingma teachings and empowerments that are on-going. Tenga Rinpoche has been teaching Chakrasamvara and the six dharmas of Naropa and overseeing the Great Stupa project. Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso has been teaching Mahamudra and related topics for years. And Ponlop Rinpoche has taught in-depth philosophy at the Nithartha Institute as well as at Naropa Institute for many years. and i don’t think you know the history of Drukyul… Strike Three. Total strike out on the secound issue. — 3. a. b. and c.  "…Trungpa’s high-living hard-drinking, 15-year-old-fucking lifestyle. (one of his secondary wives was 15). a. Diana Pybus was 16 when she and a 22 yr old Tibetan exile boy fell in love. (Diana: "Being with him made complete sense to me, in a way that nothing that had come before in my life had. What was extraordinary about it wasn’t the physicality at all. Rather it was the pervasive atmosphere of gentleness and compassion." Chogyam: "Emotion, what is that? Longing for you is something deeper than my impression of you, and the memory could be carved on rock,…somthing substantial…." They were legally married in Scottland. It was 1968 and both were part of the English hippie counter-culture. Her mother objected to the marrige and asked Diana to see a psychiatrist. Diana has said about that: He opened our session by saying, "So your mother tells me you want to be a dropout from society". I replied, "Yes, I do!"  So he said, "Oh, do tell me about it." He was so sympathetic that I felt he was about ready to drop out himself. We had a great talk about Buddhism and other things, and finally he said to me, "You know something, I have to confide in you…Your mother is a very disturbed person. She’s alienated everyone around her and everyone around you. I actually think you’re doing quite fine." So much for your version of a dumb illeagal pre-teen preyed-upon by some old lama. Strike One. (also, i think you might feel a little bit ashamed here for sneering at true love, read the rest and you will see what i mean…) b. Lady Diana Mukpo: "Later, when i started my intensive ‘Dressage’ traning " (Diana Mukpo was the first woman accepted to The Spanish Riding Academy, the pre-eminant school of European formal horseback riding) " I knew that I had to acknowledge the conventional world and some sort of conventional wisdom to make the whole thing work. I tried to keep those two worlds, my marriage and my career, a bit separate, so that i could be accepted in the riding world <on my own merits. On the otherhand, nothing that ever happened in Rinpoche’s world was ever a problem. It was just a bit of a balancing act." …Woooo: Teenage cult zombie **has her own life***, outside of any boodhist whatever. Dang. Strike two for you, she’s still not the dumb victim. c. Lady Diana, concludes the autobiography these quotes are taken from : "It makes me sad to talk about all this, because i miss my husband and nothing will ever replce his presence. But also it gives me great joy. His life was a tremendous gift: to me personally, to all his students, and beyond that, to all of the Western world. What he did, what he said, what he left behind and what will eventually come out of it all – that is such a big gift. We have just begun to unwrap it."  - Diana J. Mukpo 2001   – Strike Three…more like you nuked yourself on this topic. You claim to have been such a close student…but i only studied with Lady Diana for one weekend, and i intuited all that from her about 20 yrs ago, so that when she published this in 2002 it was like hearing from an old friend…. i really do wonder about your claims as to having been such a close and devout student if you’re this clueless… Wait for the next post and the next three strike outs as i cover all the points you have raised with citations, cause you just come off worse and worse… …i’ll even tell you why you’re putting so much time and effort into rehashing your past like this and avoiding what is going on now…might help you heal a bit.   – best,       – n.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Re: Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized   Reply to: [1]cupcake   Newsgroups:          [2]talk.religion.buddhism,          [3]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,          [4]alt.religion.buddhism,          [5]alt.magick,          [6]alt.religion.buddhism.ris-med   Followup to: [7]newsgroups   References:      Re: Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized   Reply to: [1]Login with Secure Password Authentication   Newsgroups:          [2]talk.religion.buddhism,          [3]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,          [4]alt.religion.buddhism,          [5]alt.magick,          [6]alt.religion.buddhism.ris-med   Followup to: [7]newsgroups   References:     Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!    Ha! I think the boys were right, cup: you need some psychiatric help.    well, yer crazy if yu think i’m crazy;  and i’m not real    crazy about yu, either           (i bet yer really Norbu in disguise, huh)       btw, once they find this reincarnated trungpa feller,       are they gonna give him a bottle of gin, err what, huh                 Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!     Ha!

he was ‘found’ years ago, and he’s a nice teen kid…between the killer Han racists and any Dogmatists that might be around i hope he has the <very careful balls to be himself…make a stand when it matters and be quiet when it will just stir-up suffering all around. He’s in a very difficult situation

Response:

Trungpa Rinpoche was a severe alcoholic for decades who deteriorated to the point that he was not rational, and often comatose, for the last decade or so of his life. Some of his later, Shambhala-oriented, writings were written just after he came out of a coma or a psychotic fugue.  I have lived in the Shambhala community for years, and had this from some of his Kusung, or personal assistants. Trungpa Rinpoche died as a result of severe cyrrhosis of the liver–the other organs shut down or lost function for years, as a result of the cyrrhosis, and this loss of major organ function is what killed him. He left no instructions as to a re-incarnation, if you believe in such things (as a saved believer in the Lord Jesus Christ I  do *not*, though I had several decades of Buddhist experience) beyond a *viva voce* remark that if he had to come back, he thought he’d be a Japanese engineer. He left no written recognition instructions, and his rather bizarre will and testament said merely "I will be haunting you." As an aside: there IS a reincarnation of Trunpa Rinpoche (i.e. a 12th Trungpa Rinpoche), but he is OUTSIDE THE CONTROL OF THE SHAMBHALA sangha (run by Trungpa’s first son, now known variously as "Mipham Rinpoche" and "The Sakyong"). The re-incarnation lives in Tibet, at Surmang monastery, where he was installed after being recognized i think.  Surmang was the monastery and lands owned by the Trungpas.  When Chogyam Trungpa fled Tibet, he left a number of dependents and monks/lamas behind, and these "held down the fort" at Surmang and have endured the Chinese yoke. Quite a contrast to Trungpa’s high-living hard-drinking, 15-year-old-fucking lifestyle. (one of his secondary wives was 15). After the death of Chogyam Trungpa, the Surmang monastery recognized their own Tulku–after all, the Shambhala cult Chogyam founded in North America had been left no instructions as to re-incarnation. Now, the Shambhala cult refers–if at all—to the official (heh) reincarnation of Trungpa as "*the* Surmang tulku."  This use of the definite article indicates their hopes that they can start a conflict (and *decades* of litigation, like the Karma Kagyu– ah,so THAT is the legacy of the buddha that lasts on through time heh heh) over which tulku is the real tulku. But they don’t have a candidate yet. Powerful lamas (Trungpa was such–he didn’t get disrobed when as a monk he got a nun pregnant (their child is the "Sakyong" who now heads the sangha) owned slave/serfs, property, lands and buildings, and re-incarnations of Rinpoches inherit these.  However, I don’t think Surmang is a wealthy monastery now. The Chinese confiscate stuff and of course the Chinese freed the slaves/serfs, much to the  resentment of the Tibetan lamas who owned them. On these boards, "norbu tragri" professes to know much of the affairs of the Shambhala sangha, yet–when I tested him with references to notable people in the Shambhala sangha (e.g. to the personal physician who moved in with Trungpa, to one of Chogyam Trungpa’s secondary wives, to the head of the uniformed security force, property managers, heads of retreat centers,etc.) he was ignorant of the allusion.  It is my impression that "norbu tragri" is a true believer in the Shambhala cult who arrived late on the scene. Do not believe any of the regulars on alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan at present–2 of them are followers of disgraced cults.  Tang may be able to provide details, if he’s working on a FAQ (my idea not his). I’m crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan. P.S. Trungpa’s sects were  Karma Kagyu (now scandalized) and Nyingma. His cult used the 16th Karmapa as a political patron, and he named their 1st 2 retreat centers "Karma Choling" and "Karma Dzong."  Look in early literature (*Garuda* Vol. 4) and you’ll see these names glossed–"Dharma place of the Karma Kagyu" for instance. Since the scandal hit the Karma Kagyu, Trungpa’s cult’s website now says the name means "Dharma place of enlightened activity." Well, karma is karma for them i guess. The Shambhala cult *added* a Nyingma nondjro and relied on Penor Rinpoche ( a nyingma bigwig) as a political patron, after 1995.  I think they are now distancing even from the Nyingma, perhaps: Penor had his own disgraces, and the Shambhala cult is now shopping around some Drukpa Kagyu lamas from Bhutan.

Response:

<snip One point at a time, mon petite. And i will address all your points, such as they are. i’m a little disappointed that that’s your great condemnation…give me a **challenge**,  - please – , because you’ve made so many -factual errors- here that it’s like shooting ducks in a barrel. Let’s start with the easy ones (and build up to the elaborately confused ones): 1.a. "On these boards, "norbu tragri" professes to know much of the affairs of the Shambhala sangha,…" No, i have never made any such claim. i have always said that i was nothing more or less than a middling student and no official/un-official spokes-person at all. i did say that if anyone had any complaints i would see what i could do, as i do know how to get in touch with people. Strike One. 1.b. "yet–when I tested him with references to notable people in the Shambhala sangha (e.g. to the personal physician who moved in with Trungpa, to one of Chogyam Trungpa’s secondary wives, to the head of the uniformed security force, property managers, heads of retreat centers,etc.) he was ignorant of the allusion. No, you didn’t ‘test’ me; you did not ask me if i knew Mr/Ms X, Y, or Z. You posted under false names making false claims (like being a current kasung, or that all the Acaryas were annoyed with me, etc.), and i told you that your act was shabby and that i didn’t believe your claims, e.g., you refered to the Vidyadhara disrespectfully as "Trungpa" and the Dorje Kasung disrespectfully as "kasung"…Also i study with the Acharayas from time to time and my email addy is right there and i’ve never heard a peep out of any them about what i post. You use false names and you lie and, sadly, you don’t even do a good job of it. Strike Two. 1.c. "It is my impression that "norbu tragri" is a true believer in the Shambhala cult who arrived late on the scene." No, i started reading VCTR around ‘74, and began practicing at the L.A. Dharmadhatu around ‘78. So i came along in the middle-beginning years of his main teaching series, as senior students were beginning to  practice Vajrayogini and before the start of the Sambhala Termas. A student in L.A. wouldn’t know who his Doctor was or the head of the Boulder Dorje Kasung. Strike Three. Total strike out on the first issue. —- 2. a. and b. "The Shambhala cult *added* a Nyingma nondjro and relied on Penor Rinpoche ( a nyingma bigwig) as a political patron, after 1995." No. Following VCTR’s death (and the Regent’s death) H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche (then "head of the Nyingma order") was invited to oversee the Shambhala Sangha because he was the only surviving of VCTR’s two Root Gurus. There could be no-one more natural to guide the sangha. Strike One. And, No. The Nyingma’s traditionally do not have a head/leader/etc; that was a merely political post created by the Tibetan Govnt in Exile. Penor Rinpoche was "it" at the time that Mipham Pinpoche was enthroned as a holder of a Nyingma lineage; Penor Rinpoche’s approval in the name of the Nyingma as a whole was a legal formality. A personal blessing as well. Strike Two. 2.c. "I think they are now distancing even from the Nyingma, perhaps: Penor had his own disgraces, and the Shambhala cult is now shopping around some Drukpa Kagyu lamas from Bhutan." No. The Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche a lineage holder of the Kagyu, Nyingma, Shambhala, and Rime traditions. He is currently studying with Khenpo Namdrol, a student of Penor Rinpoche, on the Guyagarbha Tantra, etc.. Thrangu Rinpoche of the Kagyu has taught the three year retreat at Gampo Abbey for many years as well as giving Mahamudra teachings. H.H.Dilgo Khyentse intoduced various Nyingma teachings and empowerments that are on-going. Tenga Rinpoche has been teaching Chakrasamvara and the six dharmas of Naropa and overseeing the Great Stupa project. Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso has been teaching Mahamudra and related topics for years. And Ponlop Rinpoche has taught in-depth philosophy at the Nithartha Institute as well as at Naropa Institute for many years. and i don’t think you know the history of Drukyul… Strike Three. Total strike out on the secound issue. — 3. a. b. and c.  "…Trungpa’s high-living hard-drinking, 15-year-old-fucking lifestyle. (one of his secondary wives was 15). a. Diana Pybus was 16 when she and a 22 yr old Tibetan exile boy fell in love. (Diana: "Being with him made complete sense to me, in a way that nothing that had come before in my life had. What was extraordinary about it wasn’t the physicality at all. Rather it was the pervasive atmosphere of gentleness and compassion." Chogyam: "Emotion, what is that? Longing for you is something deeper than my impression of you, and the memory could be carved on rock,…somthing substantial…." They were legally married in Scottland. It was 1968 and both were part of the English hippie counter-culture. Her mother objected to the marrige and asked Diana to see a psychiatrist. Diana has said about that: He opened our session by saying, "So your mother tells me you want to be a dropout from society". I replied, "Yes, I do!"  So he said, "Oh, do tell me about it." He was so sympathetic that I felt he was about ready to drop out himself. We had a great talk about Buddhism and other things, and finally he said to me, "You know something, I have to confide in you…Your mother is a very disturbed person. She’s alienated everyone around her and everyone around you. I actually think you’re doing quite fine." So much for your version of a dumb illeagal pre-teen preyed-upon by some old lama. Strike One. (also, i think you might feel a little bit ashamed here for sneering at true love, read the rest and you will see what i mean…) b. Lady Diana Mukpo: "Later, when i started my intensive ‘Dressage’ traning " (Diana Mukpo was the first woman accepted to The Spanish Riding Academy, the pre-eminant school of European formal horseback riding) " I knew that I had to acknowledge the conventional world and some sort of conventional wisdom to make the whole thing work. I tried to keep those two worlds, my marriage and my career, a bit separate, so that i could be accepted in the riding world <on my own merits. On the otherhand, nothing that ever happened in Rinpoche’s world was ever a problem. It was just a bit of a balancing act." …Woooo: Teenage cult zombie **has her own life***, outside of any boodhist whatever. Dang. Strike two for you, she’s still not the dumb victim. c. Lady Diana, concludes the autobiography these quotes are taken from : "It makes me sad to talk about all this, because i miss my husband and nothing will ever replce his presence. But also it gives me great joy. His life was a tremendous gift: to me personally, to all his students, and beyond that, to all of the Western world. What he did, what he said, what he left behind and what will eventually come out of it all – that is such a big gift. We have just begun to unwrap it."  - Diana J. Mukpo 2001   – Strike Three…more like you nuked yourself on this topic. You claim to have been such a close student…but i only studied with Lady Diana for one weekend, and i intuited all that from her about 20 yrs ago, so that when she published this in 2002 it was like hearing from an old friend…. i really do wonder about your claims as to having been such a close and devout student if you’re this clueless… Wait for the next post and the next three strike outs as i cover all the points you have raised with citations, cause you just come off worse and worse… …i’ll even tell you why you’re putting so much time and effort into rehashing your past like this and avoiding what is going on now…might help you heal a bit.   – best,       – n.

Response:

DA, Here is the weblink with info about the twelfth Trungpa. Regards, K http://www.konchok.org/trungpa-lineage.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Re: Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized   Reply to: [1]cupcake   Newsgroups:          [2]talk.religion.buddhism,          [3]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,          [4]alt.religion.buddhism,          [5]alt.magick,          [6]alt.religion.buddhism.ris-med   Followup to: [7]newsgroups   References:      Re: Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized   Reply to: [1]Login with Secure Password Authentication   Newsgroups:          [2]talk.religion.buddhism,          [3]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,          [4]alt.religion.buddhism,          [5]alt.magick,          [6]alt.religion.buddhism.ris-med   Followup to: [7]newsgroups   References:     Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!    Ha! I think the boys were right, cup: you need some psychiatric help.    well, yer crazy if yu think i’m crazy;  and i’m not real    crazy about yu, either           (i bet yer really Norbu in disguise, huh)       btw, once they find this reincarnated trungpa feller,       are they gonna give him a bottle of gin, err what, huh                 Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!     Ha!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!    Ha! "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away."   –Philip K. Dick     http://deoxy.org/pkd_how2build.htm "Walking the spiritual path properly is a very subtle process; it is not something to jump into naively. There are numerous sidetracks which lead to a distorted, ego-centered version of spirituality; we can deceive ourselves into thinking we are developing spiritually when instead we are strengthing our egocentricity through spiritual techniques. This fundamental distortion may be referred to as spiritual materialism." –Ch

If it whines like a DemonKKKrap, it must be a Nazi Aryan

Question:

-If it whines like a DemonKKKrap, it must be a Nazi Aryan – -Jim Oliphant. Legal Times. 2002/05/23. – -The FBI says the National Alliance is a domestic terror group. William -Pierce says he’s in the communications business. Odd not a single mention of Democrats anywhere in this article. On the other hand, we do have a GOP canidate who wins a primary espousing Nazi-like philoophy just this month: Anti-semitism  and racism  has always been  deeply rooted in the minds and hearts of American Conservatives. "[Non-Jews] have to realize that the Jews in the U.S. control the entire information and propaganda machine, the large newspapers, the motion pictures, radio and television, and the big companies.  And there is a force that we have to take into consideration." –U.S. President Richard Nixon, as noted in the book Anti-Semitism inAmerica by Leonard Dinnerstein, pp. 232-233 Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian http://Rainbow-Christian.tk The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I’m Gay http://Ninure-Saunders.tk Take my polls http://ninure.100megsfree5.com My Yahoo Group http://Ninure.tk My Online Diary http://www.ninure.deardiary.net – Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches http://www.MCCchurch.org The Bible Site – help provide free scripture http://www.thebiblesite.org To send e-mail, remove nohate from address

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If it whines like a DemonKKKrap, it must be a Nazi Aryan Jim Oliphant. Legal Times. 2002/05/23. The FBI says the National Alliance is a domestic terror group. William Pierce says he’s in the communications business. It is much easier to find William Pierce than it is to see him. His work, that’s everywhere. The radio. The Internet. Leaflets on Fairfax County mailboxes. Protests at the Israeli Embassy. Video games. CDs. In that sense, he and his National Alliance — the White Power, neo-Nazi organization that Pierce personifies — surround you, even if you aren’t aware of it.

Here are some of the writings of Martin Luther on how to deal with the Jews of Germany : When Martin Luther was asked whether it is morally justifiable to box the ears of a Jew , he said " Certainly . I for one would smack him on the jaw . Were I able , I would knock him down and stab him in my anger . It is lawful , according to both the human and the divine law , to kill a robber ; then it is even more permissible to slay a blasphemer ". " If I had to baptise a Jew , I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe , hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words ‘ I baptise thee in the name of Abraham ‘ ". " We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them ". " The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves ". " Set fire to their synagogues and schools ; and what will not burn , heap earth over it so that no man may see a stone or relic of them forever ". Pages 50 – 51 in "http://www.tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuther-HitlersSpiritualAncestor…." , Martin Luther ~ Hitler’s Spiritual Ancestor , by Peter F. Wiener , Author of German For the Scientist , and German With Tears , Hutchinson & Co. ( Publishers ) Ltd . London : New York : Melbourne : Sydney . The work was put into electronic format by Patsy Jackson for Tentmaker Publications – 118 Walnut – Hermann , Missouri , 65041 , U.S.A. See also Who voted for the Nazis?(electoral history of the National Socialist German Workers Party) , by Dick Geary , Professor of Modern History at the University of Nottingham and the author of Hitler and Nazism ( Routledge 1993 ) , in History Today , October 1998 , in association with The Gale Group and LookSmart , 2000 , "http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1373/n10_v48/21207858/print.jhtml" Martin Luther the German [ born 1483 and died in 1546 ], published in 1543 an essay called " On the Jews and Their Lies ," in which Luther urged that Jewish synagogues be burnt , because most of the Jews refused to convert to Christianity on a large scale , which Martin Luther hoped would be a sign of the return of Jesus Christ in the near future . This essay, as also the other printed and published essays of Martin Luther, were often reprinted, studied, taught, and preached in Germany, at least before Germany’s final defeat in the Second World War in 1945 .In 1938 , in Nazi Germany , on Kristallnacht [ Crystalnight , or The Night of Broken Glass ] , many Jewish synagogues were burnt , as Martin Luther had urged in his often reprinted and preached 1543 essay called " On the Jews and Their Lies ." This essay was often preached by most German Lutheran pastors , with a few exceptions , until May 8, 1945 . After the German federal election of the 5th of March , 1933 , Alfred von Hugenberg , the leader of the mainly Lutheran laypersons’ [ non - pastors ] " German National Peoples’ Party ," formed a coalition with the Nazis , in order to outvote the Communists and Social Democrats . By Lutheran laypersons’ or non – pastors , we should remember that Martin Luther called Christians " the priesthood of believers ." The Nazis gained about 44% of the seats in the lower house of the German federal parliament , the Reichstag , in the German federal election of the 5th of March , 1933 . On the 14th of July , 1933 , all political parties except the Nazi party were prohibited in Nazi Germany . However , Alfred von Hugenberg , who died in 1951 , and who was the leader of the mainly Lutheran laypersons’ "German National Peoples’ Party ," continued to be a member of the German Reichstag until 1945 , even when all political parties except the Nazi Party were banned in Germany after the 14th of July , 1933. From 1929 – 1933 , the Nazis gained the largest votes in German state elections where the Lutherans formed the majority of the states’ population . Between 1929 – 1933 , these following German states , all of them with a mainly Lutheran population , had state governments where the Nazis were either coalition leaders or partners : Braunschweig [ Brunswick in English ] , Mecklenburg , Mecklenburg – Strelitz , Lubeck , Thuringia , Saxony – Anhalt , Harzburg , Oldenburg , and Lippe . Only the German state of Schleswig – Holstein , another mainly Lutheran state , had a state legislature between 1929 – 1933 where the Nazis had a majority of the seats in that state legislature . Schleswig – Holstein had been taken from Denmark by Germany in a war that had broken out in 1864 and again in 1866, although in 1920 the northern third of Schleswig was returned to Denmark after a League of Nations sponsored referendum had been held on the issue as one of the terms of the Versailles Peace Treaty with Germany . The Nazis gained their lowest votes in the rural and mainly Catholic areas of southern Bavaria , while they gained more votes in the northern parts of Bavaria , also known as Franconia , an area of Germany that has a mixed Catholic and Lutheran population . One of the reasons why Germany , out of all other nations , had the Nazis come to power during the economic Great Depression of 1929 – 1939 , was because Germany lacked a strong democratic tradition . Between 1850 – 1919 , the German state of Brandenburg – Prussia had a three class electoral law , although the state of Bavaria had introduced universal adult male suffrage in 1904 , followed by Baden – Wurttemberg [ formerly Swabia ] , in 1906 . The German state governments nominated the members of the German federal upper house , the Bundesrat , which , along with the German Chancellor and Kaiser , had final veto powers over the German federal lower house , the Bundestag . The German Catholics are found mostly in the southern , south-eastern , and western parts of Germany , and in March 1938 German – speaking Austria was " forcibly " annexed by Nazi Germany . Martin Luther the German [ born 1483 - died 1546 ] , basing his views on St. Paul’s epistle to the Romans ch. 13 : 1 – 7 , urged that the German peasant revolt of 1525 be brutally suppressed by the German knights , in his 1525 printed and published essay called "Against the Thieving and Murdering Hordes of Peasants ." St . Paul the Apostle wrote in his epistle to the Romans , chapter 13 : 1 – 7 , that all authorities who wield the sword are appointed by God to enforce the law . The word "authorities" is a plural word however . In the U.S.A. , the adult male citizen voters , who have the constitutional authority to elect their politicians , also have the constitutional authority under the Second Bill of Rights to bear arms as members of a well regulated state militia , for example , the U.S. National Guard , which the U.S. Supreme Court interpreted as being a safeguard intended by the American law makers of the 1780’s to protect the states from any likelihood that the U.S. federal government would become dictatorial , although the state , county , and municipal governments are just as likely to become dictatorial , as the southern U.S. states often treated their black , or very dark brown minorities , in a dictatorial manner . However , I still believe that rioters should be dispersed by firing rubber coated metal bullets into their legs , stomachs , and chests , with the use of scopes for accurate aiming and semi – automatic rifles to control the rate of fire . The safety of the riot police comes before the safety of rioters , because peaceful and legal protesters lose many civil rights when they decide to become violent rioters and cowardly mob tyrants . Martin Luther’s views on predestination and God’s foreknowledge are set out in his 1525 published essay called "On the Bondage of the Will." Although free will exists according to 1 Timothy 2 : 1 – 4 and 2 Peter 3 : 9 , since these two references from the New Testament says that God wants everyone to be saved , God , who is eternal , with no beginning and no end , and who is all knowing , knows what choices people will make in the future [ see the Acts of the Apostles 15 : 18 ] . God is not the author of evil , but Satan , the fallen angel , is . Personally , I have up to a certain extent great admiration for Girolamo Savonarola [ 1452 - 1498 ] and Cornelius Otto Jansen [ 1585 - 1638 ] . From faith and the gift of God’s grace, good works flow [ see Ephesians 2 : 8 - 10 by St. Paul the Apostle ]. Repenting out of fear or attrition is acceptable according to Proverbs 13 : 13 , Proverbs 14 : 26 – 27, and Proverbs 19 : 23 , but repenting out of contrition or genuine sorrow is even better . Most of the Japanese are Mahayana Buddhists and Shintoists at the same time . The Mahayana Buddhists are the Protestants of Buddhism , as opposed to the Theravada Buddhists , who are the Catholics of Buddhism . The Mahayana Buddhists believe that members of the Buddhist laity , as well as members of the Buddhist monkhood , can achieve nirvana more quickly . The Mahayana Buddhists also tend to place greater emphasis on the sincerity of a believer’s faith , the relationship between motives and methods , and the role of divine grace , then Theravada Buddhists do . In 1925 universal adult male suffrage or voting rights was introduced for national elections for the first time in the history of Japan , although by 1941 Japan had become a one – party state … read more »

Response:

If it whines like a DemonKKKrap, it must be a Nazi Aryan Jim Oliphant. Legal Times. 2002/05/23. The FBI says the National Alliance is a domestic terror group. William Pierce says he’s in the communications business. It is much easier to find William Pierce than it is to see him. His work, that’s everywhere. The radio. The Internet. Leaflets on Fairfax County mailboxes. Protests at the Israeli Embassy. Video games. CDs. In that sense, he and his National Alliance — the White Power, neo-Nazi organization that Pierce personifies — surround you, even if you aren’t aware of it. But a face-to-face meeting is trickier. You travel six hours out of the District of Columbia, and three hours into the journey you leave behind any trace of a highway. Instead, you adopt unsteady two-lane blacktops that snake through despairing West Virginia hill towns, looking for an anonymous dirt road that you’ll probably never find. The SUV is a good thing, because you will need it. For the roads, for the rain, and especially for the rocky path that, if you do find it, leads to Pierce’s compound. Compound. A word that should bring uneasiness, but a word that everyone uses to describe Pierce’s mountain hideaway. Compounds make you think of David Koresh, or Manuel Noriega. And a compound it is. A secluded lot. Multiple buildings on acres of land. Fences. He sounded small on the telephone. He gave you directions like your Uncle Al. But to hear him on his weekly radio and Internet broadcast is to hear someone else entirely. "As long as the Jews who control America’s mass media are permitted to continue teaching our women that frolicking with Blacks is fashionable, and as long as they are permitted to continue teaching our men that being thought a ‘racist’ is a fate worse than death, we will not be able to avoid the future the media bosses have planned for us," is an example of Pierce’s usual didactic. "The governmental structure is in place that will annihilate our race and our civilization, and the masters of the mass media are at the controls of this structure." The dirt road leads to a gate. You pass a house. There are other buildings. Then, you see it, a barn-like structure adorned with a huge circular symbol, something that looks like an anorexic version of the United Way logo. You will find that it adorns Pierce’s headquarters in multiple forms. It’s raining hard. You get out of the car. Your portable phone can’t grab a signal. You realize no one knows where you are. A man emerges, one of as many as 20 people who live on the property. "You’re here to see Dr. Pierce?" You nod. You are led into the building. There is a small auditorium. At the front stands a podium with the National Alliance symbol. William Pierce, whom hate-monitors such as the Anti-Defamation League have labeled one of the most dangerous racists in America, whose organization the Federal Bureau of Investigation places at the forefront of potential domestic terrorists, is waiting in a small room at the rear. He looks like an aging tenured college professor who has been stashed in a windowless office writing tracts no one will read. And then you notice one thing that throws you. He has a cat. The cat, of course, is white. Despite his age, the 69-year-old Pierce is a high-tech spin doctor of an age-old yarn. Over the Internet, through music CDs, with books, he repeats his dusty motifs: Jews control American government. Jews control the media. The Anti-Defamation League calls the National Alliance "the largest and most active neo-Nazi organization in the nation" and estimates it has 16 active cells nationwide and a membership of more than 1,500. The Southern Poverty Law Center, which also monitors hate groups, says the National Alliance’s membership has increased 30-fold since 1990. Although Pierce denies advocating the violent overthrow of the U.S. government, he frequently makes use of the phrase "white revolution." Because of that, the FBI considers the National Alliance to be a domestic terrorist organization. In testimony before Congress in February, the bureau’s senior counterterrorism expert, Dale Watson, told a Senate panel that the Alliance represents "a continuing terrorist threat." Pierce and the Alliance were allegedly tied to a 1980s white supremacist gang named The Order whose leader died in a shootout with federal agents in 1984. "The organization is openly revolutionary," says Mark Pitcavage, director of fact finding for the Anti-Defamation League. "They say now is not the right time for organized violent action, but maybe down the road." Pierce’s Alliance, of which he is the unquestioned philosopher-king, seems of late emboldened. On May 11 it organized the most recent in a series of demonstrations in Washington, D.C., this time in front of the Israeli Embassy. The event drew an estimated 300 people, almost 10 times more than a similar protest last year. "Only in the last year did [the Alliance] really come out with this kind of public action," says Mark Potok, spokesman for the Southern Poverty Law Center. There is one clear reason for that. To Pierce, the attacks of Sept. 11 were validation of his anti-Black, anti-Israel platform. "In many ways, what 9/11 did most was dramatize the revolutionary nature of the radical right today," Potok says. "[They were] standing back and applauding." The cat has relocated to a warm spot on top of Pierce’s computer. His cramped office is jammed with books with titles like "A History of the Jews" and "The Jewish Lists." It feels like a bunker. Pierce is talking about Sept. 11. "My initial reaction was, ‘Wow! Spectacular!’ " he says. "This really was the most televised terrorism event, the most televised act of war ever." For Pierce, there are two ready answers for any equation: Israel and Blacks. At the time, the most recent issue of Free Speech, the newsletter he publishes, carried an article titled "Send Them All Back." He is not subtle. "The September 11 attack is a very minor consequence of bad immigration policy if you consider that most of the people involved were people who shouldn’t have been here," Pierce says. "The loss of life, the damage, is trivial to the damage that has been done to our changing demographics." Pierce had already written "The Turner Diaries," the novel about an American race war that allegedly inspired Timothy McVeigh to blow up the Oklahoma City federal building in 1995. Pierce denies that the book served as McVeigh’s muse for his terrorist act, but Pierce says he understands why McVeigh did it. "He didn’t have any other way of expressing his anger," he says. "If you are some little guy that doesn’t have any other way, doesn’t have any money, no powerful friends, no medium to express yourself, you may well use terrorism. "One cannot beat the government at this stage. The government has too many secret police, too many guns," he says. "It may be later on that the balance of power will shift." A few years ago, Robert Griffin, a professor of education at the University of Vermont, became so intrigued by Pierce that he moved to Pierce’s West Virginia stronghold and lived there for a month. "I found him the most fascinating human being I’ve ever been around in my life," says Griffin, who describes himself as "right-of-center." "He’s a very honorable man of the highest character. People can’t get beyond ‘The Turner Diaries.’ He has to grab people by the lapels and get their attention through elevated language and heated talk." Griffin attended National Alliance leadership conferences at the compound, where, he says, as many as 70 leaders of chapters nationwide would attend. He followed Pierce on a speaking tour in Germany. He wrote a book about Pierce and then shopped it around. He called it "The Fame of a Dead Man’s Deeds." There were no takers. After the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, more Americans seemed to know about "The Turner Diaries" than "Anna Karenina." Pierce wrote the book in 1978 under a pseudonym, and followed it up with "Hunter," a book that serves as a guide to assassination. In recent years, however, Pierce has gone multimedia. Three years ago, he bought a struggling white-power record label called Resistance Records ("The Soundtrack to the White Revolution") for $250,000, a transaction consummated at the University Club in the District. The label and its Web site feature skinheaded-and-tattooed bands. Earlier this year Pierce released his first video game, Ethnic Cleansing, which, he says, gave his record label "a big boost." The label describes the game like this: "Run through the ghetto blasting away various blacks and spics in an attempt to gain entrance to the subway system, where the Jews have hidden to avoid the carnage." Griffin says Pierce is conscious that, at almost 70, he is running out of time. He seems to be making a late-in-the-game push to stretch his influence. Using his anti-Israel rhetoric, Pierce has been cozying up to extremist Islamic states. He was interviewed on Iranian radio last year. And the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, which tracks neo-Nazi groups, claims Pierce has ties with Ahmed Huber, a Swiss banker and Islamic right-wing activist. Huber reportedly financially backed a Holocaust denial conference featuring Pierce that was scheduled to be held in Beirut last year before the Lebanese government put a stop to it. "From a global point of view, there are two names: his and David Duke’s," says Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the center. "In terms of transnational hate, he is the most sophisticated global thinker." Locally, besides organizing demonstrations, the National Alliance has been littering Northern Virginia communities such as Herndon, Reston, and Great Falls with propaganda. "We started seeing them last year, before September 11," says Lt. Mike Ditmer, bias crimes … read more »

Response:

monastic vs normal life

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tad there is a man I know who doesn’t own a car for that very reason. He feels it adds to the ecological difficulties that stress the earth. Another old bit of wisdom which speaks contrary to our consumerist society. Use it up Wear it out Make it do Or do without Hey if we all did that, the economy would have a major slump! And would that be such a bad thing?

Depends where you are standing, of course.  I am not an economist, but when the economy goes into a slump people find it harder to live in general. Prices go up, employment goes down, everything is affected.    Another old saying which is very true… "how much of any thing is one thing?" — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox") – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He became a homeless ascetic because of an overwhelming concern for the suffering/death of his own family/countypeople/all the world. However this was not like taking refuge etc and becoming a Buddhist Monk/Nun. The buddha ended-up –rejecting all the practices he learned– so as to simplify his meditation/awareness and become Awake. In otherwords, he made an earnest mistake, rejected it, and sought an original way. You know I haven’t seen anybody state it just that way yet.  The fact that Buddha made a mistake is I think, extremely important.  Because if we idealize the Buddha as an infallible, perfect being (as gods are often idealized) and we attempt to "live up" to that ideal… well I don’t have to tell you what that would lead to. Hi David, I recall some time back having a discussion on whether or not the Buddha ever changed his mind.   Besides changing his course of study and his teachers over time in searching for truth, later on he also changed his mind about allowing women to become nuns.  This happened after his stepmother asked him to. These situations reveal his basic humanity, and also that he wasn’t attached to appearances or even his own previous decisions. These two instances, changing ones mind about an important issue, altering ones path of study in the light of newer understanding, show a true seeker who is not afraid to appear as a vulnerable human being and makes the man’s excellence shine through the ages. He was the coolest! — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox") There’s a Shunryu Suzuki book which I haven’t bought yet but was reading in a book store.  It’s a collection of talks similar to Zen Mind, Beginners Mind.  For some reason something in the introduction, written by a student, really struck me where Suzuki had basically made a mistake in telling a him to do something.  There was of course, no hesitation in his admitting he made an error.  I suppose there is nothing to hide, and nothing to protect once you have nothing! There is an old saying that I so often quote here; "Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing."

This is an interesting exchange and highlights for me the importance of remembering the circumstances of the Buddha’s life. We read in one place that the Buddha did not believe in a god, in another that he wasn’t oppossed to ordinary people worshipping the Hindu gods. In some branches of Buddhism the emphasis on reincarnation is extremely strong, in others sort of an embarrassing aside. (My personal take on this is that the Buddha probably just didn’t want to fight that battle as reincarnation beliefs were so much a part of the the society he lived in.) Whatever the case, we have to assume that the Buddha knew what he was doing. He knew that his ideas were radical and would fundamentally alter the society he lived in if followed. Just because he was enlightened doesn’t mean he wasn’t politically astute. We also must remember that the Buddha did not right anything down (a purposeful decision considering that he was an educated and literate man?). Apparently he dissuaded his followers from writing things down as well (at least until after his death), encouraging them to memorize what he said instead, in essence creating a pre-literate monkhood. Pre-literate societies are generally better at remembering things, a quality engendered through the art of storytelling. There is one proviso here, though. When a storyteller recounts a tale from the past, they do so for reasons having to do with the present. So even though the story may be perfectly memorized, the storyteller can shape it to their current needs. I would assume that the Buddha knew this and wanted to take advantage of it. Yes? No? David

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He became a homeless ascetic because of an overwhelming concern for the suffering/death of his own family/countypeople/all the world. However this was not like taking refuge etc and becoming a Buddhist Monk/Nun. The buddha ended-up –rejecting all the practices he learned– so as to simplify his meditation/awareness and become Awake. In otherwords, he made an earnest mistake, rejected it, and sought an original way. You know I haven’t seen anybody state it just that way yet.  The fact that Buddha made a mistake is I think, extremely important.  Because if we idealize the Buddha as an infallible, perfect being (as gods are often idealized) and we attempt to "live up" to that ideal… well I don’t have to tell you what that would lead to. Hi David, I recall some time back having a discussion on whether or not the Buddha ever changed his mind.   Besides changing his course of study and his teachers over time in searching for truth, later on he also changed his mind about allowing women to become nuns.  This happened after his stepmother asked him to. These situations reveal his basic humanity, and also that he wasn’t attached to appearances or even his own previous decisions. These two instances, changing ones mind about an important issue, altering ones path of study in the light of newer understanding, show a true seeker who is not afraid to appear as a vulnerable human being and makes the man’s excellence shine through the ages. He was the coolest! — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox") There’s a Shunryu Suzuki book which I haven’t bought yet but was reading in a book store.  It’s a collection of talks similar to Zen Mind, Beginners Mind.  For some reason something in the introduction, written by a student, really struck me where Suzuki had basically made a mistake in telling a him to do something.  There was of course, no hesitation in his admitting he made an error.  I suppose there is nothing to hide, and nothing to protect once you have nothing! There is an old saying that I so often quote here; "Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing." This is an interesting exchange and highlights for me the importance of remembering the circumstances of the Buddha’s life. We read in one place that the Buddha did not believe in a god, in another that he wasn’t oppossed to ordinary people worshipping the Hindu gods. In some branches of Buddhism the emphasis on reincarnation is extremely strong, in others sort of an embarrassing aside. (My personal take on this is that the Buddha probably just didn’t want to fight that battle as reincarnation beliefs were so much a part of the the society he lived in.) Whatever the case, we have to assume that the Buddha knew what he was doing. He knew that his ideas were radical and would fundamentally alter the society he lived in if followed. Just because he was enlightened doesn’t mean he wasn’t politically astute. We also must remember that the Buddha did not right anything down (a purposeful decision considering that he was an educated and literate man?). Apparently he dissuaded his followers from writing things down as well (at least until after his death), encouraging them to memorize what he said instead, in essence creating a pre-literate monkhood. Pre-literate societies are generally better at remembering things, a quality engendered through the art of storytelling. There is one proviso here, though. When a storyteller recounts a tale from the past, they do so for reasons having to do with the present. So even though the story may be perfectly memorized, the storyteller can shape it to their current needs. I would assume that the Buddha knew this and wanted to take advantage of it. Yes? No? Sounds good to me! In order to become the type of world he envisioned we would have trained our minds to their utmost potential (amazing feats are possible if you practice!) to memorize rather than use paper. We would then take snapshots with our minds rather than with a camera. (This then avoids the despicable paradigm of "material resources converted to monetary wealth.") Also, out of respect for living things in general the waste of paper would also be something to move away from. Who is aspiring to such heights? Who is living amidst a "sangha" that follows these precepts as a priority? Use little, recycle lots, be happy. What if I said that using a car is wrong. Or that having a job that includes use of cars is wrong. Where would that leave most Buddhists? tvp Tad there is a man I know who doesn’t own a car for that very reason.   He feels it adds to the ecological difficulties that stress the earth. Another old bit of wisdom which speaks contrary to our consumerist society. Use it up Wear it out Make it do Or do without Hey if we all did that, the economy would have a major slump!

And would that be such a bad thing?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He became a homeless ascetic because of an overwhelming concern for the suffering/death of his own family/countypeople/all the world. However this was not like taking refuge etc and becoming a Buddhist Monk/Nun. The buddha ended-up –rejecting all the practices he learned– so as to simplify his meditation/awareness and become Awake. In otherwords, he made an earnest mistake, rejected it, and sought an original way. You know I haven’t seen anybody state it just that way yet.  The fact that Buddha made a mistake is I think, extremely important.  Because if we idealize the Buddha as an infallible, perfect being (as gods are often idealized) and we attempt to "live up" to that ideal… well I don’t have to tell you what that would lead to. Hi David, I recall some time back having a discussion on whether or not the Buddha ever changed his mind.   Besides changing his course of study and his teachers over time in searching for truth, later on he also changed his mind about allowing women to become nuns.  This happened after his stepmother asked him to. These situations reveal his basic humanity, and also that he wasn’t attached to appearances or even his own previous decisions. These two instances, changing ones mind about an important issue, altering ones path of study in the light of newer understanding, show a true seeker who is not afraid to appear as a vulnerable human being and makes the man’s excellence shine through the ages. He was the coolest! — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox") There’s a Shunryu Suzuki book which I haven’t bought yet but was reading in a book store.  It’s a collection of talks similar to Zen Mind, Beginners Mind.  For some reason something in the introduction, written by a student, really struck me where Suzuki had basically made a mistake in telling a him to do something.  There was of course, no hesitation in his admitting he made an error.  I suppose there is nothing to hide, and nothing to protect once you have nothing! There is an old saying that I so often quote here; "Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing." This is an interesting exchange and highlights for me the importance of remembering the circumstances of the Buddha’s life. We read in one place that the Buddha did not believe in a god, in another that he wasn’t oppossed to ordinary people worshipping the Hindu gods. In some branches of Buddhism the emphasis on reincarnation is extremely strong, in others sort of an embarrassing aside. (My personal take on this is that the Buddha probably just didn’t want to fight that battle as reincarnation beliefs were so much a part of the the society he lived in.) Whatever the case, we have to assume that the Buddha knew what he was doing. He knew that his ideas were radical and would fundamentally alter the society he lived in if followed. Just because he was enlightened doesn’t mean he wasn’t politically astute. We also must remember that the Buddha did not right anything down (a purposeful decision considering that he was an educated and literate man?). Apparently he dissuaded his followers from writing things down as well (at least until after his death), encouraging them to memorize what he said instead, in essence creating a pre-literate monkhood. Pre-literate societies are generally better at remembering things, a quality engendered through the art of storytelling. There is one proviso here, though. When a storyteller recounts a tale from the past, they do so for reasons having to do with the present. So even though the story may be perfectly memorized, the storyteller can shape it to their current needs. I would assume that the Buddha knew this and wanted to take advantage of it. Yes? No? Sounds good to me! In order to become the type of world he envisioned we would have trained our minds to their utmost potential (amazing feats are possible if you practice!) to memorize rather than use paper. We would then take snapshots with our minds rather than with a camera. (This then avoids the despicable paradigm of "material resources converted to monetary wealth.") Also, out of respect for living things in general the waste of paper would also be something to move away from. Who is aspiring to such heights? Who is living amidst a "sangha" that follows these precepts as a priority? Use little, recycle lots, be happy. What if I said that using a car is wrong. Or that having a job that includes use of cars is wrong. Where would that leave most Buddhists? tvp

Tad there is a man I know who doesn’t own a car for that very reason.   He feels it adds to the ecological difficulties that stress the earth. Another old bit of wisdom which speaks contrary to our consumerist society. Use it up Wear it out Make it do Or do without Hey if we all did that, the economy would have a major slump! — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox")

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He became a homeless ascetic because of an overwhelming concern for the suffering/death of his own family/countypeople/all the world. However this was not like taking refuge etc and becoming a Buddhist Monk/Nun. The buddha ended-up –rejecting all the practices he learned– so as to simplify his meditation/awareness and become Awake. In otherwords, he made an earnest mistake, rejected it, and sought an original way. You know I haven’t seen anybody state it just that way yet.  The fact that Buddha made a mistake is I think, extremely important.  Because if we idealize the Buddha as an infallible, perfect being (as gods are often idealized) and we attempt to "live up" to that ideal… well I don’t have to tell you what that would lead to. Hi David, I recall some time back having a discussion on whether or not the Buddha ever changed his mind.   Besides changing his course of study and his teachers over time in searching for truth, later on he also changed his mind about allowing women to become nuns.  This happened after his stepmother asked him to. These situations reveal his basic humanity, and also that he wasn’t attached to appearances or even his own previous decisions. These two instances, changing ones mind about an important issue, altering ones path of study in the light of newer understanding, show a true seeker who is not afraid to appear as a vulnerable human being and makes the man’s excellence shine through the ages. He was the coolest! — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox") There’s a Shunryu Suzuki book which I haven’t bought yet but was reading in a book store.  It’s a collection of talks similar to Zen Mind, Beginners Mind.  For some reason something in the introduction, written by a student, really struck me where Suzuki had basically made a mistake in telling a him to do something.  There was of course, no hesitation in his admitting he made an error.  I suppose there is nothing to hide, and nothing to protect once you have nothing! There is an old saying that I so often quote here; "Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing." This is an interesting exchange and highlights for me the importance of remembering the circumstances of the Buddha’s life. We read in one place that the Buddha did not believe in a god, in another that he wasn’t oppossed to ordinary people worshipping the Hindu gods. In some branches of Buddhism the emphasis on reincarnation is extremely strong, in others sort of an embarrassing aside. (My personal take on this is that the Buddha probably just didn’t want to fight that battle as reincarnation beliefs were so much a part of the the society he lived in.) Whatever the case, we have to assume that the Buddha knew what he was doing. He knew that his ideas were radical and would fundamentally alter the society he lived in if followed. Just because he was enlightened doesn’t mean he wasn’t politically astute. We also must remember that the Buddha did not right anything down (a purposeful decision considering that he was an educated and literate man?). Apparently he dissuaded his followers from writing things down as well (at least until after his death), encouraging them to memorize what he said instead, in essence creating a pre-literate monkhood. Pre-literate societies are generally better at remembering things, a quality engendered through the art of storytelling. There is one proviso here, though. When a storyteller recounts a tale from the past, they do so for reasons having to do with the present. So even though the story may be perfectly memorized, the storyteller can shape it to their current needs. I would assume that the Buddha knew this and wanted to take advantage of it. Yes? No?

Sounds good to me! In order to become the type of world he envisioned we would have trained our minds to their utmost potential (amazing feats are possible if you practice!) to memorize rather than use paper. We would then take snapshots with our minds rather than with a camera. (This then avoids the despicable paradigm of "material resources converted to monetary wealth.") Also, out of respect for living things in general the waste of paper would also be something to move away from. Who is aspiring to such heights? Who is living amidst a "sangha" that follows these precepts as a priority? Use little, recycle lots, be happy. What if I said that using a car is wrong. Or that having a job that includes use of cars is wrong. Where would that leave most Buddhists? tvp

Response:

so Buddha leaving his royal family to choose asceticism is just his own choice of lifestyle, right? He became a homeless ascetic because of an overwhelming concern for the suffering/death of his own family/countypeople/all the world. However this was not like taking refuge etc and becoming a Buddhist Monk/Nun. The buddha ended-up –rejecting all the practices he learned– so as to simplify his meditation/awareness and become Awake.

so to simplify awareness, can’t it be done within the perimeters of our normal life?  so I come back to the original question, why one chooses to be a monk? is it simply a belief that "if i become a monk, it’ll make it easier to acheive awareness and i can better accomplish my meditative practice…"? or to say it slightly differently, is it a lifestyle chosen by people with a belief that this will simplify my way of understanding things in life…..?? In otherwords, he made an earnest mistake, rejected it, and sought an original way.

what "earnest mistake" are you referring to?

Response:

   Evilrot rote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                          Re: monastic vs normal life   Reply to: [1]"Evelyn Ruut"   Organization: Road Runner – NYC   Newsgroups:          [2]talk.religion.buddhism,          [3]alt.religion.buddhism,          [4]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan   Followup to: [5]newsgroups   References: He became a homeless ascetic because of an overwhelming concern for the suffering/death of his own family/countypeople/all the world. However this was not like taking refuge etc and becoming a Buddhist Monk/Nun. The buddha ended-up –rejecting all the practices he learned– so as to simplify his meditation/awareness and become Awake. In otherwords, he made an earnest mistake, rejected it, and sought an original way. You know I haven’t seen anybody state it just that way yet.  The fact that Buddha made a mistake is I think, extremely important.  Because if we idealize the Buddha as an infallible, perfect being (as gods are often idealized) and we attempt to "live up" to that ideal… well I don’t have to tell you what that would lead to. Hi David, I recall some time back having a discussion on whether or not the Buddha ever changed his mind.   Besides changing his course of study and his teachers over time in searching for truth, later on he also changed his mind about allowing women to become nuns.  This happened after his stepmother asked him to. These situations reveal his basic humanity, and also that he wasn’t attached to appearances or even his own previous decisions. These two instances, changing ones mind about an important issue, altering ones path of study in the light of newer understanding, show a true seeker who is not afraid to appear as a vulnerable human being and makes the man’s excellence shine through the ages. He was the coolest! — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox") There’s a Shunryu Suzuki book which I haven’t bought yet but was reading in a book store.  It’s a collection of talks similar to Zen Mind, Beginners Mind.  For some reason something in the introduction, written by a student, really struck me where Suzuki had basically made a mistake in telling a him to do something.  There was of course, no hesitation in his admitting he made an error.  I suppose there is nothing to hide, and nothing to protect once you have nothing! There is an old saying that I so often quote here; "Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing."       "everybody’s got something to hide, except        for me and my monkey…" You are a mystery even to yourself cuppie.

     yer a pig! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Regards, Evelyn

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                          Re: monastic vs normal life   Reply to: [1]"Evelyn Ruut"   Organization: Road Runner – NYC   Newsgroups:          [2]talk.religion.buddhism,          [3]alt.religion.buddhism,          [4]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan   Followup to: [5]newsgroups   References: He became a homeless ascetic because of an overwhelming concern for the suffering/death of his own family/countypeople/all the world. However this was not like taking refuge etc and becoming a Buddhist Monk/Nun. The buddha ended-up –rejecting all the practices he learned– so as to simplify his meditation/awareness and become Awake. In otherwords, he made an earnest mistake, rejected it, and sought an original way. You know I haven’t seen anybody state it just that way yet.  The fact that Buddha made a mistake is I think, extremely important.  Because if we idealize the Buddha as an infallible, perfect being (as gods are often idealized) and we attempt to "live up" to that ideal… well I don’t have to tell you what that would lead to. Hi David, I recall some time back having a discussion on whether or not the Buddha ever changed his mind.   Besides changing his course of study and his teachers over time in searching for truth, later on he also changed his mind about allowing women to become nuns.  This happened after his stepmother asked him to. These situations reveal his basic humanity, and also that he wasn’t attached to appearances or even his own previous decisions. These two instances, changing ones mind about an important issue, altering ones path of study in the light of newer understanding, show a true seeker who is not afraid to appear as a vulnerable human being and makes the man’s excellence shine through the ages. He was the coolest! — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox") There’s a Shunryu Suzuki book which I haven’t bought yet but was reading in a book store.  It’s a collection of talks similar to Zen Mind, Beginners Mind.  For some reason something in the introduction, written by a student, really struck me where Suzuki had basically made a mistake in telling a him to do something.  There was of course, no hesitation in his admitting he made an error.  I suppose there is nothing to hide, and nothing to protect once you have nothing! There is an old saying that I so often quote here; "Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing."       "everybody’s got something to hide, except        for me and my monkey…"

You are a mystery even to yourself cuppie. — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox")

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Evilrot rote: Hi all, Buddhism doesn’t force people to lead monastic life. According to Buddhism, we can achieve enlightenment even with our normal life. Then why do monks go through strict monasticism? Why does one chooose to be a monk? Some people find it the best way for them.   Others do not.   Laypersons can also become enlightened.    Marpa was an example.      since Vajrayanis are not real buddhists, your comments      are irreverent and irrelevant that reply begs the question, which is "Why does one chooose to be a monk?". Ev says "Some people find it the best way for them." Is that false? Do people choose renunciation because it is an inferior path for them??? And "Laypersons can also become enlightened." Which the Buddha says: 43. "If a householder who observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct, should wish: ‘Oh, that by realization myself with direct knowledge, I may here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of the heart and the deliverance by wisdom that are taint-free with exhaustion of taints!’ it is possible that, by realization himself with direct knowledge, he may here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of the heart and the deliverance by wisdom that are taint-free with exhaustion of taints. Why is that? Because he observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct."  - Majjhima Nikaya 41 Then does a monk feel superior or inerior to such a householder? No, for as the Buddha says for all: (regarding right views:) He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Sutta Nipata IV.5 — vv. 796-803 Thus one is not to regard one’s own way as superior or inferior regardless if one is liberated or not, renunciate or householder; nor if one is male or female: "What does womanhood matter at all When the mind is concentrated well, When knowledge flows on steadily As one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I’m a woman’ or ‘I’m a man’ Or ‘I’m anything at all’ — Is fit for Mara to address."  - SN V.2 i do not post my own comments here, for the Buddha has said what is so. And where did Ev’ say -differnt- that you can say "irreverent and irrelevant"? "Vajrayanis are not real buddhists" may or may not be true, but to dispute when they say what the Buddha said serves no purpose. …unless yr just being cute and naughty…  ; neh,?

    typical Vajrayani  –   turning everything around to fit     their own nefarious purposes, and then using it against me – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you ask a monk why they found it attractive, they may choose to tell you.   I’d guess that most likely it was because they wanted to devote full time toward their practice and every other lifestyle has its demands on their time, taking away from their practice.   Most people are able to find some happy medium combining practice with the rest of their life.   If not, they choose to take vows and devote full time to it. — Regards, Evelyn

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                          Re: monastic vs normal life   Reply to: [1]"Evelyn Ruut"   Organization: Road Runner – NYC   Newsgroups:          [2]talk.religion.buddhism,          [3]alt.religion.buddhism,          [4]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan   Followup to: [5]newsgroups   References: He became a homeless ascetic because of an overwhelming concern for the suffering/death of his own family/countypeople/all the world. However this was not like taking refuge etc and becoming a Buddhist Monk/Nun. The buddha ended-up –rejecting all the practices he learned– so as to simplify his meditation/awareness and become Awake. In otherwords, he made an earnest mistake, rejected it, and sought an original way. You know I haven’t seen anybody state it just that way yet.  The fact that Buddha made a mistake is I think, extremely important.  Because if we idealize the Buddha as an infallible, perfect being (as gods are often idealized) and we attempt to "live up" to that ideal… well I don’t have to tell you what that would lead to. Hi David, I recall some time back having a discussion on whether or not the Buddha ever changed his mind.   Besides changing his course of study and his teachers over time in searching for truth, later on he also changed his mind about allowing women to become nuns.  This happened after his stepmother asked him to. These situations reveal his basic humanity, and also that he wasn’t attached to appearances or even his own previous decisions. These two instances, changing ones mind about an important issue, altering ones path of study in the light of newer understanding, show a true seeker who is not afraid to appear as a vulnerable human being and makes the man’s excellence shine through the ages. He was the coolest! — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox") There’s a Shunryu Suzuki book which I haven’t bought yet but was reading in a book store.  It’s a collection of talks similar to Zen Mind, Beginners Mind.  For some reason something in the introduction, written by a student, really struck me where Suzuki had basically made a mistake in telling a him to do something.  There was of course, no hesitation in his admitting he made an error.  I suppose there is nothing to hide, and nothing to protect once you have nothing! There is an old saying that I so often quote here; "Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing."

      "everybody’s got something to hide, except        for me and my monkey…" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Regards, Evelyn

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He became a homeless ascetic because of an overwhelming concern for the suffering/death of his own family/countypeople/all the world. However this was not like taking refuge etc and becoming a Buddhist Monk/Nun. The buddha ended-up –rejecting all the practices he learned– so as to simplify his meditation/awareness and become Awake. In otherwords, he made an earnest mistake, rejected it, and sought an original way. You know I haven’t seen anybody state it just that way yet.  The fact that Buddha made a mistake is I think, extremely important.  Because if we idealize the Buddha as an infallible, perfect being (as gods are often idealized) and we attempt to "live up" to that ideal… well I don’t have to tell you what that would lead to. Hi David, I recall some time back having a discussion on whether or not the Buddha ever changed his mind.   Besides changing his course of study and his teachers over time in searching for truth, later on he also changed his mind about allowing women to become nuns.  This happened after his stepmother asked him to. These situations reveal his basic humanity, and also that he wasn’t attached to appearances or even his own previous decisions. These two instances, changing ones mind about an important issue, altering ones path of study in the light of newer understanding, show a true seeker who is not afraid to appear as a vulnerable human being and makes the man’s excellence shine through the ages. He was the coolest! — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox") There’s a Shunryu Suzuki book which I haven’t bought yet but was reading in a book store.  It’s a collection of talks similar to Zen Mind, Beginners Mind.  For some reason something in the introduction, written by a student, really struck me where Suzuki had basically made a mistake in telling a him to do something.  There was of course, no hesitation in his admitting he made an error.  I suppose there is nothing to hide, and nothing to protect once you have nothing!

There is an old saying that I so often quote here; "Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing." — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox") – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He became a homeless ascetic because of an overwhelming concern for the suffering/death of his own family/countypeople/all the world. However this was not like taking refuge etc and becoming a Buddhist Monk/Nun. The buddha ended-up –rejecting all the practices he learned– so as to simplify his meditation/awareness and become Awake. In otherwords, he made an earnest mistake, rejected it, and sought an original way. You know I haven’t seen anybody state it just that way yet.  The fact that Buddha made a mistake is I think, extremely important.  Because if we idealize the Buddha as an infallible, perfect being (as gods are often idealized) and we attempt to "live up" to that ideal… well I don’t have to tell you what that would lead to. Hi David, I recall some time back having a discussion on whether or not the Buddha ever changed his mind.   Besides changing his course of study and his teachers over time in searching for truth, later on he also changed his mind about allowing women to become nuns.  This happened after his stepmother asked him to. These situations reveal his basic humanity, and also that he wasn’t attached to appearances or even his own previous decisions. These two instances, changing ones mind about an important issue, altering ones path of study in the light of newer understanding, show a true seeker who is not afraid to appear as a vulnerable human being and makes the man’s excellence shine through the ages. He was the coolest! — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox")

There’s a Shunryu Suzuki book which I haven’t bought yet but was reading in a book store.  It’s a collection of talks similar to Zen Mind, Beginners Mind.  For some reason something in the introduction, written by a student, really struck me where Suzuki had basically made a mistake in telling a him to do something.  There was of course, no hesitation in his admitting he made an error.  I suppose there is nothing to hide, and nothing to protect once you have nothing!

Response:

Hi all, Buddhism doesn’t force people to lead monastic life. According to Buddhism, we can achieve enlightenment even with our normal life. Then why do monks go through strict monasticism? Why does one chooose to be a monk?

Based on what I have read and asked monks and nuns, they have reached another level of being and choose to leave their life and lead monastic lives.  They do so for the sake of all sentient beings.  Possibly, many of them have already seen emptiness directly, but continue to be born once again to help those who have not left samsara.  The Dalai Lama has seen emptiness, directly. He has no reason to continue being born outside of his one reason, which is to love people and have compassion for all sentient beings.  That’s his life’s work and it’s all he does. What a Bodhisattva.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He became a homeless ascetic because of an overwhelming concern for the suffering/death of his own family/countypeople/all the world. However this was not like taking refuge etc and becoming a Buddhist Monk/Nun. The buddha ended-up –rejecting all the practices he learned– so as to simplify his meditation/awareness and become Awake. In otherwords, he made an earnest mistake, rejected it, and sought an original way. You know I haven’t seen anybody state it just that way yet.  The fact that Buddha made a mistake is I think, extremely important.  Because if we idealize the Buddha as an infallible, perfect being (as gods are often idealized) and we attempt to "live up" to that ideal… well I don’t have to tell you what that would lead to.

Hi David, I recall some time back having a discussion on whether or not the Buddha ever changed his mind.   Besides changing his course of study and his teachers over time in searching for truth, later on he also changed his mind about allowing women to become nuns.  This happened after his stepmother asked him to. These situations reveal his basic humanity, and also that he wasn’t attached to appearances or even his own previous decisions. These two instances, changing ones mind about an important issue, altering ones path of study in the light of newer understanding, show a true seeker who is not afraid to appear as a vulnerable human being and makes the man’s excellence shine through the ages. He was the coolest! — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox")

Response:

He became a homeless ascetic because of an overwhelming concern for the suffering/death of his own family/countypeople/all the world. However this was not like taking refuge etc and becoming a Buddhist Monk/Nun. The buddha ended-up –rejecting all the practices he learned– so as to simplify his meditation/awareness and become Awake. In otherwords, he made an earnest mistake, rejected it, and sought an original way.

You know I haven’t seen anybody state it just that way yet.  The fact that Buddha made a mistake is I think, extremely important.  Because if we idealize the Buddha as an infallible, perfect being (as gods are often idealized) and we attempt to "live up" to that ideal… well I don’t have to tell you what that would lead to. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the choice people make whether or not to be a monk depends on his own personality and priorities… Buddha was perhaps a very serious and sensitive person.. so he thought it’d be a good idea to be a monk to find out the solution for suffering.. I think it’s not possible to judge whether being a monk or not is a right lifestyle. it’s just a matter of choice you make for yourself… In the Buddhist tradition it is allowed for lay-people to take various temporary vows, and even be novices…going back to being a layperson afterwards has no disgrace at all. Vows are designed to part of mindfulness-practice, so one should only take vows that one can practice for a set duration, except for the Bodhisattva vow which has a non-temporal nature, as it is based on awareness beyond self/not-self and ‘the threee-times’. – best,     – n.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, Buddhism doesn’t force people to lead monastic life. According to Buddhism, we can achieve enlightenment even with our normal life. Then why do monks go through strict monasticism? Why does one chooose to be a monk? Some people find it the best way for them.   Others do not.   Laypersons can also become enlightened.    Marpa was an example.   If you ask a monk why they found it attractive, they may choose to tell you.   I’d guess that most likely it was because they wanted to devote full time toward their practice and every other lifestyle has its demands on their time, taking away from their practice.   Most people are able to find some happy medium combining practice with the rest of their life.   If not, they choose to take vows and devote full time to it. Thanx everyone for reply…. so Buddha leaving his royal family to choose asceticism is just his own choice of lifestyle, right?

He became a homeless ascetic because of an overwhelming concern for the suffering/death of his own family/countypeople/all the world. However this was not like taking refuge etc and becoming a Buddhist Monk/Nun. The buddha ended-up –rejecting all the practices he learned– so as to simplify his meditation/awareness and become Awake. In otherwords, he made an earnest mistake, rejected it, and sought an original way. I think the choice people make whether or not to be a monk depends on his own personality and priorities… Buddha was perhaps a very serious and sensitive person.. so he thought it’d be a good idea to be a monk to find out the solution for suffering.. I think it’s not possible to judge whether being a monk or not is a right lifestyle. it’s just a matter of choice you make for yourself…

In the Buddhist tradition it is allowed for lay-people to take various temporary vows, and even be novices…going back to being a layperson afterwards has no disgrace at all. Vows are designed to part of mindfulness-practice, so one should only take vows that one can practice for a set duration, except for the Bodhisattva vow which has a non-temporal nature, as it is based on awareness beyond self/not-self and ‘the threee-times’.  - best,      - n.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, Buddhism doesn’t force people to lead monastic life. According to Buddhism, we can achieve enlightenment even with our normal life. Then why do monks go through strict monasticism? Why does one chooose to be a monk? Some people find it the best way for them.   Others do not.   Laypersons can also become enlightened.    Marpa was an example.   If you ask a monk why they found it attractive, they may choose to tell you.   I’d guess that most likely it was because they wanted to devote full time toward their practice and every other lifestyle has its demands on their time, taking away from their practice.   Most people are able to find some happy medium combining practice with the rest of their life.   If not, they choose to take vows and devote full time to it.

Thanx everyone for reply…. so Buddha leaving his royal family to choose asceticism is just his own choice of lifestyle, right? I think the choice people make whether or not to be a monk depends on his own personality and priorities… Buddha was perhaps a very serious and sensitive person.. so he thought it’d be a good idea to be a monk to find out the solution for suffering.. I think it’s not possible to judge whether being a monk or not is a right lifestyle. it’s just a matter of choice you make for yourself…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Evilrot rote: Hi all, Buddhism doesn’t force people to lead monastic life. According to Buddhism, we can achieve enlightenment even with our normal life. Then why do monks go through strict monasticism? Why does one chooose to be a monk? Some people find it the best way for them.   Others do not.   Laypersons  can also become enlightened.    Marpa was an example.      since Vajrayanis are not real buddhists, your comments      are irreverent and irrelevant Is she actually trying to say something again? I thought I made it clear to her that she is not to have an opinion on any matter without first consulting me? I’m going to have to take the next critical step now.

    Sod off, glory hole blower!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you ask a monk why they found it attractive, they may choose to tell you.   I’d guess that  most likely it was because they wanted to devote full time toward their  practice and every other lifestyle has its demands on their time, taking away from their practice.   Most people are able to find some happy medium  combining practice with the rest of their life.   If not, they choose to take vows  and devote full time to it. — Regards, Evelyn

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Evilrot rote: Hi all, Buddhism doesn’t force people to lead monastic life. According to Buddhism, we can achieve enlightenment even with our normal life. Then why do monks go through strict monasticism? Why does one chooose to be a monk? Some people find it the best way for them.   Others do not.   Laypersons can also become enlightened.    Marpa was an example.        since Vajrayanis are not real buddhists, your comments      are irreverent and irrelevant

that reply begs the question, which is "Why does one chooose to be a monk?". Ev says "Some people find it the best way for them." Is that false? Do people choose renunciation because it is an inferior path for them??? And "Laypersons can also become enlightened." Which the Buddha says: 43. "If a householder who observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct, should wish: ‘Oh, that by realization myself with direct knowledge, I may here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of the heart and the deliverance by wisdom that are taint-free with exhaustion of taints!’ it is possible that, by realization himself with direct knowledge, he may here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of the heart and the deliverance by wisdom that are taint-free with exhaustion of taints. Why is that? Because he observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct."   – Majjhima Nikaya 41 Then does a monk feel superior or inerior to such a householder? No, for as the Buddha says for all: (regarding right views:) He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Sutta Nipata IV.5 — vv. 796-803 Thus one is not to regard one’s own way as superior or inferior regardless if one is liberated or not, renunciate or householder; nor if one is male or female: "What does womanhood matter at all When the mind is concentrated well, When knowledge flows on steadily As one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I’m a woman’ or ‘I’m a man’ Or ‘I’m anything at all’ — Is fit for Mara to address."   – SN V.2 i do not post my own comments here, for the Buddha has said what is so. And where did Ev’ say -differnt- that you can say "irreverent and irrelevant"? "Vajrayanis are not real buddhists" may or may not be true, but to dispute when they say what the Buddha said serves no purpose. …unless yr just being cute and naughty…  ; neh,? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you ask a monk why they found it attractive, they may choose to tell you.   I’d guess that most likely it was because they wanted to devote full time toward their practice and every other lifestyle has its demands on their time, taking away from their practice.   Most people are able to find some happy medium combining practice with the rest of their life.   If not, they choose to take vows and devote full time to it. — Regards, Evelyn

Response:

Why does one chooose to be a monk?

Monks often like being monks. "The fun started when I became a monk".  That’s the sort of thing you can hear monks saying. Becoming a monk is a way to really get rid of entanglements. I remember seeing a fleece jacket lying in a closet at the local vihara. The monk who’d usually worn it was away, on a trip I don’t know where to… Sri Lanka maybe, Thailand, Australia, Japan…. ? Seeing that jacket I realized how free he was. He was gone and left that jacket behind. And I was stuck where I was. I could see choosing to be a monk, but I just don’t have what it takes.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Evilrot rote: Hi all, Buddhism doesn’t force people to lead monastic life. According to Buddhism, we can achieve enlightenment even with our normal life. Then why do monks go through strict monasticism? Why does one chooose to be a monk? Some people find it the best way for them.   Others do not.   Laypersons can also become enlightened.    Marpa was an example.      since Vajrayanis are not real buddhists, your comments      are irreverent and irrelevant

That is not true. Vajrayana is close enough to be Buddhist. If you move further from the line (such as Soka Gakkai) You can call it "inspired by Buddhism" Rather than actual buddhism. I – myself – practise theravada (not that it matters, really) If you ask a monk why they found it attractive, they may choose to tell you.   I’d guess that most likely it was because they wanted to devote full time toward their practice and every other lifestyle has its demands on their time, taking away from their practice.   Most people are able to find some happy medium combining practice with the rest of their life.   If not, they choose to take vows and devote full time to it.

exactly! Happiness to ya all Peter H

Response:

Hi all, Buddhism doesn’t force people to lead monastic life. According to Buddhism, we can achieve enlightenment even with our normal life. Then why do monks go through strict monasticism? Why does one chooose to be a monk?

Response:

Hi all, Buddhism doesn’t force people to lead monastic life. According to Buddhism, we can achieve enlightenment even with our normal life. Then why do monks go through strict monasticism? Why does one chooose to be a monk?

Some people find it the best way for them.   Others do not.   Laypersons can also become enlightened.    Marpa was an example.   If you ask a monk why they found it attractive, they may choose to tell you.   I’d guess that most likely it was because they wanted to devote full time toward their practice and every other lifestyle has its demands on their time, taking away from their practice.   Most people are able to find some happy medium combining practice with the rest of their life.   If not, they choose to take vows and devote full time to it. — Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove ’sox")

Response:

    Evilrot rote: Hi all, Buddhism doesn’t force people to lead monastic life. According to Buddhism, we can achieve enlightenment even with our normal life. Then why do monks go through strict monasticism? Why does one chooose to be a monk? Some people find it the best way for them.   Others do not.   Laypersons can also become enlightened.    Marpa was an example.  

     since Vajrayanis are not real buddhists, your comments      are irreverent and irrelevant – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If you ask a monk why they found it attractive, they may choose to tell you.   I’d guess that most likely it was because they wanted to devote full time toward their practice and every other lifestyle has its demands on their time, taking away from their practice.   Most people are able to find some happy medium combining practice with the rest of their life.   If not, they choose to take vows and devote full time to it. — Regards, Evelyn

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Evilrot rote: Hi all, Buddhism doesn’t force people to lead monastic life. According to Buddhism, we can achieve enlightenment even with our normal life. Then why do monks go through strict monasticism? Why does one chooose to be a monk? Some people find it the best way for them.   Others do not.   Laypersons can also become enlightened.    Marpa was an example.      since Vajrayanis are not real buddhists, your comments      are irreverent and irrelevant

Is she actually trying to say something again? I thought I made it clear to her that she is not to have an opinion on any matter without first consulting me? I’m going to have to take the next critical step now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you ask a monk why they found it attractive, they may choose to tell you.   I’d guess that most likely it was because they wanted to devote full time toward their practice and every other lifestyle has its demands on their time, taking away from their practice.   Most people are able to find some happy medium combining practice with the rest of their life.   If not, they choose to take vows and devote full time to it. — Regards, Evelyn

Response:

Answer me, please!

Question:

Could anyone please answer me:1) What are the three principle branches of Buddhism? 2) In what aspects do they agree? 3) How do they differ? THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME!  Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services     ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **                 http://www.usenet.com

Response:

Hey Ronaldo, I’m not a Buddhist (yet) although my belief comes close; I don’t know too much about it. Maybe this will help though: http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/budsm/index.html AW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could anyone please answer me:1) What are the three principle branches of Buddhism? 2) In what aspects do they agree? 3) How do they differ? THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME!  Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services     ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **                 http://www.usenet.com

Response:

Could anyone please answer me:1) What are the three principle branches of Buddhism? 2) In what aspects do they agree? 3) How do they differ? THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME!

There’s more than one way to look at it all. Much of what I will say is generalization only and there are exceptions to almost everything, but I’ll give you what I’ve got. There’s the Buddhism traditionally practiced in Southern Asia, which is called Theravada; you’ll sometimes hear this kind of Buddhism called Hinayana, the "small way" or "small vehicle," but the people who practice it consider that rude, so we won’t call it that. Theravadan Buddhists look to the teachings given by the Buddha in the Pali Canon, an early compilation of teachings written down not by Shakyamuni himself, but by his students after his death. The goal of a practitioner of Theravada is to go beyond the state of Samsara, the state of conditioned existence, to a state of perfect peace called Nirvana by realizing the true nature of Mind and phenomena. The person who attains this state of peace is called an Arhat, literally, "worthy of respect." While other people can help and support you in your practice, this is work you largely do yourself, for yourself. Then there’s the Buddhism traditionally practiced in Northern Asia, which is called Mahayana, the "great way" or "great vehicle." Mahayana Buddhists have a larger scripture which includes material written down later, but which Mahayana practitioners believe was also originally given by the Buddha. The goal of Mahayana practice is also to realize the true nature of mind, but not only for oneself. The ideal of Mahayana practice is not the Arhat, but the Bodhisattva (one who has the mind of enlightenment). A Bodhisattva works for the benefit of all beings and ultimately will work for all beings’ enlightenment until that goal is accomplished. Vajrayana, the "diamond way" or "diamond vehicle" is traditionally practiced mostly in Tibet and parts of China. Vajrayana shares the Mahayana ideal of the Bodhisattva and in some ways is not really a separate branch, but a different set of practices leading to the same goal as Mahayana. You will also hear Vajrayana called Buddhist Tantra, but this can cause confusion because the same word, tantra, is used to describe certain Hindu schools and practices and they are not the same. All these approaches to the Buddha’s teachings are helpful, but they are helpful to different people in different circumstances. It’s a matter of finding what works best for you. There’s lots more. There is, for instance, a different understanding of the nature of enlightenment in Theravada versus Mahayana and there are different philosophical schools within each of the major branches. I’d recommend some basic reading, especially "The Way Things Are" by Ole Nydahl. This will give you a good general introduction to Buddhist thought. Keep in mind that it is written by a teacher of Vajrayana and so will have a different view of things than a book written by, say, a practitioner of Theravada. Best wishes, Rebecca

Response:

All these approaches to the Buddha’s teachings are helpful, but they are helpful to different people in different circumstances. It’s a matter of finding what works best for you.

And this is what I seriously love about Buddhism – spiritual freedom! AW

Response:

One Universal Church Run By Papacy From Rome Is Inconsistent With Paul's Teachings

Question:

Why not?  It is ancient (SS Peter and Paul) and catholic (it is found all around the world). It was not found all around the world in the first century.

Of course not.  Jesus told them to go to the whole world; the church hadn’t gotten there yet. Give me the names of two bishpos who represented India during the Nicea Council where the term Catholic was coined.

Persia was there.  As for the names, go look them up yourself.  I’m not here to do your research for you. It is NOT national (there is no Roman nation; Italians constitute only a small percent of the Catholics of the world) nor imperial (empires have legions and armies; the Catholic church has a few guards in ancient Swiss uniforms). But there used to be the Roman Emppire and the Prince of that Empire, history tell us called for a council. What does this tell you.

And that Roman Empire was centered in Constantinople and the council was called by THAT Roman emperor.  You are confusing us with the Orthodox, who DO have a nationalist Imperial concept of church.  Or at least they did until they lost their empire to the Moslems in the 15th century.  The Russians still nurse religio-imperial ideas. And it is busy exporting sacraments everywhere because Jesus told us to: Were you there when Jesus said that?

Stupid discussion.  I quoted Scripture; if that doesn’t convince you, then forget it.   Paul did not confirm it.

Paul isn’t Jesus.  He was busy BEING the mission to the world.  Once the churches were planted, he saw to it that there were leaders to care for them. He was still out doing church planting when he was arrested. I do believe that he had a divine mandate.

You can believe anything you want to.   As why he never sent mission in China or India?

Because Thomas went to India.  I don’t think they even knew that China existed.  They didn’t sent anyone to Peru or New Zealand then, either, but that’s because they didn’t know they were there. The answer is that Jesus never meant what you imperialists understand

<g  So you are inventing your own Jesus?  I’m sure he’ll end up looking a lot like you.  Most made up Jesus’ do.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  You take one line of scripture, misinterpret it in order to arrive at the  conclusion you need, and ignore hundreds of volumes of  Christian literature  written in the first few centuries that would educate you as to the  structure of the early Church.  Jesus said "my Church". Not "my independent, autonomous, free floating  theological, headless churches".   Jesus said my Church and you and the Pope say it is in Rome, not even in   Jerusalem. Since you and I were not there when Jesus allegedly said this,   one question remains:Why did not tell the same thing to Paul? Why did   not tell Paul that He already built a Church in Rome and that is Catholic.   Let me rephrase my contentions so that no misunderstanding may occur.   The Roman Emperial Church is a NATIONAL Church of the Roman Empire.   It is not universal.   What I mean by that is this, since no Chinese nor Japanese   delagates were represented when Constantine called for a council at Nicea,   whatever was decided in term of doctrines and theology was strictly done so   for national interests, the interests of the Roman Empire. The New Testament   is only one source among many which represent Paul’s view   of the mystery of the MESSIAH/CHRIST.   As we all know, Paul was sent purposedly to the Greeco-Roman world.   Whoever understands Paul’s theological and Christological position is able   to draw up a jumble of theologial and historical accounts on Jesus and called   them "Gospel". THE CANON IS A GREECO-ROMAN CANON ON JESUS AND NOT BY JESUS,   The semetic Canon is a different one according to the Qur’an,   so be careful when you use the word Church in relation to   the Messiah, the one Moses prophecesied of when he said to the Israelites:   "Eternal your God will raise for you the Messiah, a prophet like myself    Him you shall listen. This is all what you asked for in Horeb when you    said…    Nothing was said about about a Son of God

Shaddap. BAM

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge? If you read Acts and the letters of Paul it is obvious that Paul and Peter kept in communication, and had disputes on doctrine. It is true that missionary work was divided up, with Paul taking responsibility for the Greek world, but this doesn’t imply two churches, any more than a company with branches in Britain and America is two companies.  But this is not what the Council of Jerusalem says. According to that Council  jews should stick to Moses Laws and costums while the gentiles were  encouraged by Paul to depart from that Law. This means that jews should keep  on circumcising their children, not eating pork and obeys others  requirements while the gentiles were free to eat anything they want. The Council of Jerusalem was not the final word on this issue.  The Council was meant to be the final word on every issue debated.

…..until the next council. You’re subjecting yourself to a fatal misread of Christian ecclesiastical history. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS. The problem is that the length of time the Jewish church is supposed to have survived, undocumented, until the Islamic period.   Undocumented by the western scholars??? Is this what you are trying to say?   Maybe yes, but there is no better document than the Qur’an itself. For kitty litter paper, perhaps.   If you want to know what the jewish Christianity would looks like, read   the qur’an and pay attention to its doctrines. I’ve read it thrice. A comic book of unrelated teachings drawn from Messianic Judaims and Zoroastrianism.  How about the Cathechism of the Catholic Church? Don’t care. I’m Orthodox. They started from us.   You should care jerk, orthodox are the most authentic catholics in the world.   By Catholic do you infer the western branch only?   I did not imply that.

Why should I care about a catechisical document which, from an Orthodox standpoint, is irrelevant to our doctrine? Mike

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You take one line of scripture, misinterpret it in order to arrive at the conclusion you need, and ignore hundreds of volumes of  Christian literature written in the first few centuries that would educate you as to the structure of the early Church. Jesus said "my Church". Not "my independent, autonomous, free floating theological, headless churches".  Jesus said my Church and you and the Pope say it is in Rome, not even in  Jerusalem. Since you and I were not there when Jesus allegedly said this,  one question remains:Why did not tell the same thing to Paul? Why did  not tell Paul that He already built a Church in Rome and that is Catholic.  Let me rephrase my contentions so that no misunderstanding may occur.  The Roman Emperial Church is a NATIONAL Church of the Roman Empire.  It is not universal.  What I mean by that is this, since no Chinese nor Japanese  delagates were represented when Constantine called for a council at Nicea,  whatever was decided in term of doctrines and theology was strictly done so  for national interests, the interests of the Roman Empire. The New Testament  is only one source among many which represent Paul’s view  of the mystery of the MESSIAH/CHRIST.  As we all know, Paul was sent purposedly to the Greeco-Roman world.  Whoever understands Paul’s theological and Christological position is able  to draw up a jumble of theologial and historical accounts on Jesus and called  them "Gospel". THE CANON IS A GREECO-ROMAN CANON ON JESUS AND NOT BY JESUS,  The semetic Canon is a different according to the Qur’an,  so be careful when you use the word Church.

Shaddap. BAM

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are you talking about?  Islam is nothing like Christianity or Judaism.  Islam is another version of Christianity. Want to know what  I am talking about? THEN GIVE ME  your definition of Christianity and back it  up with the Bible. Non sequitur. Christ didn’t set up a church within his teachings, and the Bible writings only extend through the 1st century A.D., during which the Church was a loose federation due to resistance from both the Jews and the Romans. IOW, your question essentially says "Give me your definition of Christianity but back it up with writings prior to the the time during which the definition was forged. So, the criteria for definition you set makes it impossible to give you a definition, Nonetheless, there IS a definition of CHristianity, and one which precludes the notion that Jesus was merely a human prophet.  I thought your definition was solely derived from Paul doctrines.

Actually, it’s defined by the words of Christ himself. The notion that he didn’t identify himself as such is one of those Muslim-and-atheist "if I say it enough people will think its true" kind of things. As for  Jesus being a mere human prophet, those who hold that view  were mostly Torah/Law observers and anti-Paul, since  Paul taught that the Law/Torah  of Moses had ended with the advent of the Messiah/Christ. See Act 15.  Messiah being a prophet is consistent with the Torah/Law as it is written  in the Law of Moses, "Messiah is a prophet like Moses." Deut 18:15.  To come back to the word Christian, the Acts of the Apostles tells us  that it was first used by the pagans in Antioch to refer to anyone who  thought and follow Jesus as the Messiah/Christ.  In this sense, Muslims also are Christians though some groups tend  to monopolize this word by excluding others.

It’s is somewhat fair to use the term "Christian" WRT muslims if the term is taken to mean "follower of the teachings of Christ", although Muslims restrict themselves to a spurious subset of his teachings. However, to a Christian, the word has an entirely different definition. Although I would tend to refer to Islam as a Messianic Jewish sect…… Mike

Response:

 You take one line of scripture, misinterpret it in order to arrive at the  conclusion you need, and ignore hundreds of volumes of  Christian literature  written in the first few centuries that would educate you as to the  structure of the early Church.  Jesus said "my Church". Not "my independent, autonomous, free floating  theological, headless churches".

  Jesus said my Church and you and the Pope say it is in Rome, not even in   Jerusalem. Since you and I were not there when Jesus allegedly said this,   one question remains:Why did not tell the same thing to Paul? Why did   not tell Paul that He already built a Church in Rome and that is Catholic.   Let me rephrase my contentions so that no misunderstanding may occur.   The Roman Emperial Church is a NATIONAL Church of the Roman Empire.   It is not universal.   What I mean by that is this, since no Chinese nor Japanese   delagates were represented when Constantine called for a council at Nicea,   whatever was decided in term of doctrines and theology was strictly done so   for national interests, the interests of the Roman Empire. The New Testament   is only one source among many which represent Paul’s view   of the mystery of the MESSIAH/CHRIST.   As we all know, Paul was sent purposedly to the Greeco-Roman world.   Whoever understands Paul’s theological and Christological position is able   to draw up a jumble of theologial and historical accounts on Jesus and called   them "Gospel". THE CANON IS A GREECO-ROMAN CANON ON JESUS AND NOT BY JESUS,   The semetic Canon is a different one according to the Qur’an,   so be careful when you use the word Church in relation to   the Messiah, the one Moses prophecesied of when he said to the Israelites:   "Eternal your God will raise for you the Messiah, a prophet like myself    Him you shall listen. This is all what you asked for in Horeb when you    said…    Nothing was said about about a Son of God

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge? If you read Acts and the letters of Paul it is obvious that Paul and Peter kept in communication, and had disputes on doctrine. It is true that missionary work was divided up, with Paul taking responsibility for the Greek world, but this doesn’t imply two churches, any more than a company with branches in Britain and America is two companies.  But this is not what the Council of Jerusalem says. According to that Council  jews should stick to Moses Laws and costums while the gentiles were  encouraged by Paul to depart from that Law. This means that jews should keep  on circumcising their children, not eating pork and obeys others  requirements while the gentiles were free to eat anything they want. The Council of Jerusalem was not the final word on this issue.  The Council was meant to be the final word on every issue debated. One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS. The problem is that the length of time the Jewish church is supposed to have survived, undocumented, until the Islamic period.   Undocumented by the western scholars??? Is this what you are trying to say?   Maybe yes, but there is no better document than the Qur’an itself. For kitty litter paper, perhaps.   If you want to know what the jewish Christianity would looks like, read   the qur’an and pay attention to its doctrines. I’ve read it thrice. A comic book of unrelated teachings drawn from Messianic Judaims and Zoroastrianism.  How about the Cathechism of the Catholic Church? Don’t care. I’m Orthodox. They started from us.

  You should care jerk, orthodox are the most authentic catholics in the world.   By Catholic do you infer the western branch only?   I did not imply that.  It is Islam versus Catholicism and not Christianity versus Islam as some want  us to believe. This is my point. In numbers, perhaps. In terms of consistent doctrine, not even.

 This is where I appealed to the decrees of the Council at Jerusalem,  the only authority. Islam is a jewish Christianity with arabian flavor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge? If you read Acts and the letters of Paul it is obvious that Paul and Peter kept in communication, and had disputes on doctrine. It is true that missionary work was divided up, with Paul taking responsibility for the Greek world, but this doesn’t imply two churches, any more than a company with branches in Britain and America is two companies.  But this is not what the Council of Jerusalem says. According to that Council  jews should stick to Moses Laws and costums while the gentiles were  encouraged by Paul to depart from that Law. This means that jews should keep  on circumcising their children, not eating pork and obeys others  requirements while the gentiles were free to eat anything they want. The Council of Jerusalem was not the final word on this issue.  The Council was meant to be the final word on every issue debated. One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS. The problem is that the length of time the Jewish church is supposed to have survived, undocumented, until the Islamic period.   Undocumented by the western scholars??? Is this what you are trying to say?   Maybe yes, but there is no better document than the Qur’an itself. For kitty litter paper, perhaps.   If you want to know what the jewish Christianity would looks like, read   the qur’an and pay attention to its doctrines. I’ve read it thrice. A comic book of unrelated teachings drawn from Messianic Judaims and Zoroastrianism.  How about the Cathechism of the Catholic Church?

Don’t care. I’m Orthodox. They started from us.  It is Islam versus Catholicism and not Christianity versus Islam as some want  us to believe. This is my point.

In numbers, perhaps. In terms of consistent doctrine, not even. Mike

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge? If you read Acts and the letters of Paul it is obvious that Paul and Peter kept in communication, and had disputes on doctrine. It is true that missionary work was divided up, with Paul taking responsibility for the Greek world, but this doesn’t imply two churches, any more than a company with branches in Britain and America is two companies.  But this is not what the Council of Jerusalem says. According to that Council  jews should stick to Moses Laws and costums while the gentiles were  encouraged by Paul to depart from that Law. This means that jews should keep  on circumcising their children, not eating pork and obeys others  requirements while the gentiles were free to eat anything they want. The Council of Jerusalem was not the final word on this issue.

 The Council was meant to be the final word on every issue debated. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS. The problem is that the length of time the Jewish church is supposed to have survived, undocumented, until the Islamic period.   Undocumented by the western scholars??? Is this what you are trying to say?   Maybe yes, but there is no better document than the Qur’an itself. For kitty litter paper, perhaps.   If you want to know what the jewish Christianity would looks like, read   the qur’an and pay attention to its doctrines. I’ve read it thrice. A comic book of unrelated teachings drawn from Messianic Judaims and Zoroastrianism.

 How about the Cathechism of the Catholic Church? A comic book of unrelated  teachings drawn from judaism and mystery religions of the Greeco Roman  world. LOL  It is Islam versus Catholicism and not Christianity versus Islam as some want  us to believe. This is my point. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike   Read also my other post: The Council of Jerusalem, the rejecters and Islam.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are you talking about?  Islam is nothing like Christianity or Judaism.  Islam is another version of Christianity. Want to know what  I am talking about? THEN GIVE ME  your definition of Christianity and back it  up with the Bible. Non sequitur. Christ didn’t set up a church within his teachings, and the Bible writings only extend through the 1st century A.D., during which the Church was a loose federation due to resistance from both the Jews and the Romans. IOW, your question essentially says "Give me your definition of Christianity but back it up with writings prior to the the time during which the definition was forged. So, the criteria for definition you set makes it impossible to give you a definition, Nonetheless, there IS a definition of CHristianity, and one which precludes the notion that Jesus was merely a human prophet.

 I thought your definition was solely derived from Paul doctrines. As for  Jesus being a mere human prophet, those who hold that view  were mostly Torah/Law observers and anti-Paul, since  Paul taught that the Law/Torah  of Moses had ended with the advent of the Messiah/Christ. See Act 15.  Messiah being a prophet is consistent with the Torah/Law as it is written  in the Law of Moses, "Messiah is a prophet like Moses." Deut 18:15.  To come back to the word Christian, the Acts of the Apostles tells us  that it was first used by the pagans in Antioch to refer to anyone who  thought and follow Jesus as the Messiah/Christ.  In this sense, Muslims also are Christians though some groups tend  to monopolize this word by excluding others. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike Inconsistent with the teaching of the Council of Jerusalem.Act 15 Inconsistent with Paul’s teaching when he said that Peter was sent by God to the circumcised and he Paul was sent to the uncircumcised. If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge? Given this fact, it is safe to say that there was no single Church at the beginning as the pharisees who accepted Jesus as their Messiah could never gentilized and the gentiles could never judaized. It was meant to be two world at the very begining Paul never preached outside the Greeco-Roman world. One universal Church run by a pope from Rome is a fraud and was never meant by God. It is Commun sense. One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two issues:  one universal Church, and that Church run by the pope.   One universal Church is the teaching of Scripture.  Eph 5 compares husband  and wife to Christ and "his church".  Unless you are into spiritual bigamy,  there is only one Christ, so there must be only one Church.   That Church is present in many different places.  Reference is made to the Church that is in Corinth and the Church that is in Rome, as well as other places.  These Churches however are all joined together in the one Univeral Church which is the bride of Christ. Now explain why the Roman National and Imperial Church claims to be the universal Church?And why it is still busy exporting its sacrements everywhere around the world. We need to stop any kind of religious imperialism. Why not?  It is ancient (SS Peter and Paul) and catholic (it is found all around the world).

 It was not found all around the world in the first century. Give me the names  of two bishpos who represented India during the Nicea Council  where the term Catholic was coined.   It is NOT national (there is no Roman nation; Italians constitute only a small percent of the Catholics of the world) nor imperial (empires have legions and armies; the Catholic church has a few guards in ancient Swiss uniforms).

 But there used to be the Roman Emppire and the Prince of that Empire, history  tell us called for a council. What does this tell you. And it is busy exporting sacraments everywhere because Jesus told us to:

 Were you there when Jesus said that? Paul did not confirm it. He did not  even instructed Tite nor Timothy to send missions around the globe in accor  dance with the divine will. HOW COME???  Either Paul had a divine mandate or was a self-proclaimed apostle.  I do believe that he had a divine mandate. As why he never sent mission  in China or India? The answer is that Jesus never meant what you  imperialists understand   "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." Matthew 28:18-20.

Response:

You take one line of scripture, misinterpret it in order to arrive at the conclusion you need, and ignore hundreds of volumes of  Christian literature written in the first few centuries that would educate you as to the structure of the early Church. Jesus said "my Church". Not "my independent, autonomous, free floating theological, headless churches".

 Jesus said my Church and you and the Pope say it is in Rome, not even in  Jerusalem. Since you and I were not there when Jesus allegedly said this,  one question remains:Why did not tell the same thing to Paul? Why did  not tell Paul that He already built a Church in Rome and that is Catholic.  Let me rephrase my contentions so that no misunderstanding may occur.  The Roman Emperial Church is a NATIONAL Church of the Roman Empire.  It is not universal.  What I mean by that is this, since no Chinese nor Japanese  delagates were represented when Constantine called for a council at Nicea,  whatever was decided in term of doctrines and theology was strictly done so  for national interests, the interests of the Roman Empire. The New Testament  is only one source among many which represent Paul’s view  of the mystery of the MESSIAH/CHRIST.  As we all know, Paul was sent purposedly to the Greeco-Roman world.  Whoever understands Paul’s theological and Christological position is able  to draw up a jumble of theologial and historical accounts on Jesus and called  them "Gospel". THE CANON IS A GREECO-ROMAN CANON ON JESUS AND NOT BY JESUS,  The semetic Canon is a different according to the Qur’an,  so be careful when you use the word Church. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BAM Inconsistent with the teaching of the Council of Jerusalem.Act 15 Inconsistent with Paul’s teaching when he said that Peter was sent by God to the circumcised and he Paul was sent to the uncircumcised. If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge? Given this fact, it is safe to say that there was no single Church at the beginning as the pharisees who accepted Jesus as their Messiah could never gentilized and the gentiles could never judaized. It was meant to be two world at the very begining Paul never preached outside the Greeco-Roman world. One universal Church run by a pope from Rome is a fraud and was never meant by God. It is Commun sense. One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS.

Response:

Sermon About Peter and Paul by Augustine, Bishop of Hippo [Ipponesia] – In this sermon, Blessed Augustine, considered the "father" of the Latin church’s theology, argues so eloquently against the notion that Peter is the "rock." A quote from the sermon: Our Lord Jesus Christ, in the final days of His earthly life, in the days of His mission to the race of man, chose from among the disciples His twelve Apostles for preaching the Word of God. Among them, the Apostle Peter for his fiery ardour was vouchsafed to occupy the first place (Mt 10:2) and to be as it were the representative person for all the Church. And therefore it is said to him, preferentially, after the confession: "And I give thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: and if thou bindest upon the earth, it will be bound in the Heavens: and if thou loosenest upon the earth, it will be loosened in the Heavens (Mt 16; 19). Wherefore it was not one man, but rather the One Universal Church, that received these "keys" and the right "to bind and loosen." And that actually it was the Church that received this right, and not exclusively a single person, turn your attention to another place of the Scriptures, where the same Lord says to also all His Apostles: "Receive ye the Holy Spirit" — and further after this: "Whoseso sins ye remit, are remitted them: and whoseso sins ye retain, are retained" (Jn 20:22-23); or: "with what ye bind upon the earth, will be bound in Heaven: and with what ye loosen upon the earth, will be loosened in the Heavens" (Mt 18:18). Thus, it is the Church that binds, the Church that loosens; the Church, built upon the foundational corner-stone — Jesus Christ Himself (Eph 2:20) doth bind and loosen. Let both the binding and the loosening be feared: the loosening, in order not to fall under this again; the binding, in order not to remain forever in this condition. Wherefore "by the passions of his own sins — says Wisdom — is each ensnared" (Prov 5:22); and except for Holy Church nowhere is it possible to receive the loosening.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Inconsistent with the teaching of the Council of Jerusalem.Act 15 Inconsistent with Paul’s teaching when he said that Peter was sent by God to the circumcised and he Paul was sent to the uncircumcised. If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge? Given this fact, it is safe to say that there was no single Church at the beginning as the pharisees who accepted Jesus as their Messiah could never gentilized and the gentiles could never judaized. It was meant to be two world at the very begining Paul never preached outside the Greeco-Roman world. One universal Church run by a pope from Rome is a fraud and was never meant by God. It is Commun sense. One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS.

Response:

You take one line of scripture, misinterpret it in order to arrive at the conclusion you need, and ignore hundreds of volumes of  Christian literature written in the first few centuries that would educate you as to the structure of the early Church. Jesus said "my Church". Not "my independent, autonomous, free floating theological, headless churches". BAM

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Inconsistent with the teaching of the Council of Jerusalem.Act 15 Inconsistent with Paul’s teaching when he said that Peter was sent by God to the circumcised and he Paul was sent to the uncircumcised. If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge? Given this fact, it is safe to say that there was no single Church at the beginning as the pharisees who accepted Jesus as their Messiah could never gentilized and the gentiles could never judaized. It was meant to be two world at the very begining Paul never preached outside the Greeco-Roman world. One universal Church run by a pope from Rome is a fraud and was never meant by God. It is Commun sense. One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two issues:  one universal Church, and that Church run by the pope.   One universal Church is the teaching of Scripture.  Eph 5 compares husband and wife to Christ and "his church".  Unless you are into spiritual bigamy, there is only one Christ, so there must be only one Church.   That Church is present in many different places.  Reference is made to the Church that is in Corinth and the Church that is in Rome, as well as other places.  These Churches however are all joined together in the one Univeral Church which is the bride of Christ. Now explain why the Roman National and Imperial Church claims to be the universal Church?And why it is still busy exporting its sacrements everywhere around the world. We need to stop any kind of religious imperialism.

Why not?  It is ancient (SS Peter and Paul) and catholic (it is found all around the world).  It is NOT national (there is no Roman nation; Italians constitute only a small percent of the Catholics of the world) nor imperial (empires have legions and armies; the Catholic church has a few guards in ancient Swiss uniforms). And it is busy exporting sacraments everywhere because Jesus told us to:  "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." Matthew 28:18-20

Response:

What are you talking about?  Islam is nothing like Christianity or Judaism.

 Islam is another version of Christianity. Want to know what  I am talking about? THEN GIVE ME  your definition of Christianity and back it  up with the Bible. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Inconsistent with the teaching of the Council of Jerusalem.Act 15 Inconsistent with Paul’s teaching when he said that Peter was sent by God to the circumcised and he Paul was sent to the uncircumcised. If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge? Given this fact, it is safe to say that there was no single Church at the beginning as the pharisees who accepted Jesus as their Messiah could never gentilized and the gentiles could never judaized. It was meant to be two world at the very begining Paul never preached outside the Greeco-Roman world. One universal Church run by a pope from Rome is a fraud and was never meant by God. It is Commun sense. One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS.

Response:

If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge? If you read Acts and the letters of Paul it is obvious that Paul and Peter kept in communication, and had disputes on doctrine. It is true that missionary work was divided up, with Paul taking responsibility for the Greek world, but this doesn’t imply two churches, any more than a company with branches in Britain and America is two companies.

 But this is not what the Council of Jerusalem says. According to that Council  jews should stick to Moses Laws and costums while the gentiles were  encouraged by Paul to depart from that Law. This means that jews should keep  on circumcising their children, not eating pork and obeys others  requirements while the gentiles were free to eat anything they want One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS. The problem is that the length of time the Jewish church is supposed to have survived, undocumented, until the Islamic period.

  Undocumented by the western scholars??? Is this what you are trying to say?   Maybe yes, but there is no better document than the Qur’an itself.   If you want to know what the jewish Christianity would looks like, read   the qur’an and pay attention to its doctrines.   Read also my other post: The Council of Jerusalem, the rejecters and Islam.

Response:

One universal Church run by a pope from Rome is a fraud and was never meant by God. It is Commun sense.

Two issues:  one universal Church, and that Church run by the pope.   One universal Church is the teaching of Scripture.  Eph 5 compares husband and wife to Christ and "his church".  Unless you are into spiritual bigamy, there is only one Christ, so there must be only one Church.   That Church is present in many different places.  Reference is made to the Church that is in Corinth and the Church that is in Rome, as well as other places.  These Churches however are all joined together in the one Univeral Church which is the bride of Christ.  

Response:

One universal Church run by a pope from Rome is a fraud and was never meant by God. It is Commun sense. Two issues:  one universal Church, and that Church run by the pope.   One universal Church is the teaching of Scripture.  Eph 5 compares husband and wife to Christ and "his church".  Unless you are into spiritual bigamy, there is only one Christ, so there must be only one Church.   That Church is present in many different places.  Reference is made to the Church that is in Corinth and the Church that is in Rome, as well as other places.  These Churches however are all joined together in the one Univeral Church which is the bride of Christ.

 Now explain why the Roman National and Inmperial Church claims to be the universal Church?And why it is still busy exporting its sacrements everywhere around the world. We need to stop any kind of religious imperialism.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge? If you read Acts and the letters of Paul it is obvious that Paul and Peter kept in communication, and had disputes on doctrine. It is true that missionary work was divided up, with Paul taking responsibility for the Greek world, but this doesn’t imply two churches, any more than a company with branches in Britain and America is two companies.  But this is not what the Council of Jerusalem says. According to that Council  jews should stick to Moses Laws and costums while the gentiles were  encouraged by Paul to depart from that Law. This means that jews should keep  on circumcising their children, not eating pork and obeys others  requirements while the gentiles were free to eat anything they want.

The Council of Jerusalem was not the final word on this issue. One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS. The problem is that the length of time the Jewish church is supposed to have survived, undocumented, until the Islamic period.   Undocumented by the western scholars??? Is this what you are trying to say?   Maybe yes, but there is no better document than the Qur’an itself.

For kitty litter paper, perhaps.   If you want to know what the jewish Christianity would looks like, read   the qur’an and pay attention to its doctrines.

I’ve read it thrice. A comic book of unrelated teachings drawn from Messianic Judaims and Zoroastrianism. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Read also my other post: The Council of Jerusalem, the rejecters and Islam.

Response:

What are you talking about?  Islam is nothing like Christianity or Judaism.  Islam is another version of Christianity. Want to know what  I am talking about? THEN GIVE ME  your definition of Christianity and back it  up with the Bible.

Non sequitur. Christ didn’t set up a church within his teachings, and the Bible writings only extend through the 1st century A.D., during which the Church was a loose federation due to resistance from both the Jews and the Romans. IOW, your question essentially says "Give me your definition of Christianity but back it up with writings prior to the the time during which the definition was forged. So, the criteria for definition you set makes it impossible to give you a definition, Nonetheless, there IS a definition of CHristianity, and one which precludes the notion that Jesus was merely a human prophet. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Inconsistent with the teaching of the Council of Jerusalem.Act 15 Inconsistent with Paul’s teaching when he said that Peter was sent by God to the circumcised and he Paul was sent to the uncircumcised. If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge? Given this fact, it is safe to say that there was no single Church at the beginning as the pharisees who accepted Jesus as their Messiah could never gentilized and the gentiles could never judaized. It was meant to be two world at the very begining Paul never preached outside the Greeco-Roman world. One universal Church run by a pope from Rome is a fraud and was never meant by God. It is Commun sense. One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS.

Response:

Paul never preached outside the Greeco-Roman world. One universal Church run by a pope from Rome is a fraud and was never meant by God. It is Commun sense.

Here are some of the writings of Martin Luther on how to deal with the Jews of Germany : When Martin Luther was asked whether it is morally justifiable to box the ears of a Jew , he said " Certainly . I for one would smack him on the jaw . Were I able , I would knock him down and stab him in my anger . It is lawful , according to both the human and the divine law , to kill a robber ; then it is even more permissible to slay a blasphemer ". " If I had to baptise a Jew , I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe , hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words ‘ I baptise thee in the name of Abraham ‘ ". " We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them ". " The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves ". " Set fire to their synagogues and schools ; and what will not burn , heap earth over it so that no man may see a stone or relic of them forever ". Pages 50 – 51 in "http://www.tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuther-HitlersSpiritualAncestor…." , Martin Luther ~ Hitler’s Spiritual Ancestor , by Peter F. Wiener , Author of German For the Scientist , and German With Tears , Hutchinson & Co. ( Publishers ) Ltd . London : New York : Melbourne : Sydney . The work was put into electronic format by Patsy Jackson for Tentmaker Publications – 118 Walnut – Hermann , Missouri , 65041 , U.S.A. See also Who voted for the Nazis?(electoral history of the National Socialist German Workers Party) , by Dick Geary , Professor of Modern History at the University of Nottingham and the author of Hitler and Nazism ( Routledge 1993 ) , in History Today , October 1998 , in association with The Gale Group and LookSmart , 2000 , "http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1373/n10_v48/21207858/print.jhtml" Martin Luther the German [ born 1483 and died in 1546 ], published in 1543 an essay called " On the Jews and Their Lies ," in which Luther urged that Jewish synagogues be burnt , because most of the Jews refused to convert to Christianity on a large scale , which Martin Luther hoped would be a sign of the return of Jesus Christ in the near future . This essay, as also the other printed and published essays of Martin Luther, were often reprinted, studied, taught, and preached in Germany, at least before Germany’s final defeat in the Second World War in 1945 .In 1938 , in Nazi Germany , on Kristallnacht [ Crystalnight , or The Night of Broken Glass ] , many Jewish synagogues were burnt , as Martin Luther had urged in his often reprinted and preached 1543 essay called " On the Jews and Their Lies ." This essay was often preached by most German Lutheran pastors , with a few exceptions , until May 8, 1945 . After the German federal election of the 5th of March , 1933 , Alfred von Hugenberg , the leader of the mainly Lutheran laypersons’ [ non - pastors ] " German National Peoples’ Party ," formed a coalition with the Nazis , in order to outvote the Communists and Social Democrats . By Lutheran laypersons’ or non – pastors , we should remember that Martin Luther called Christians " the priesthood of believers ." The Nazis gained about 44% of the seats in the lower house of the German federal parliament , the Reichstag , in the German federal election of the 5th of March , 1933 . On the 14th of July , 1933 , all political parties except the Nazi party were prohibited in Nazi Germany . However , Alfred von Hugenberg , who died in 1951 , and who was the leader of the mainly Lutheran laypersons’ "German National Peoples’ Party ," continued to be a member of the German Reichstag until 1945 , even when all political parties except the Nazi Party were banned in Germany after the 14th of July , 1933. From 1929 – 1933 , the Nazis gained the largest votes in German state elections where the Lutherans formed the majority of the states’ population . Between 1929 – 1933 , these following German states , all of them with a mainly Lutheran population , had state governments where the Nazis were either coalition leaders or partners : Braunschweig [ Brunswick in English ] , Mecklenburg , Mecklenburg – Strelitz , Lubeck , Thuringia , Saxony – Anhalt , Harzburg , Oldenburg , and Lippe . Only the German state of Schleswig – Holstein , another mainly Lutheran state , had a state legislature between 1929 – 1933 where the Nazis had a majority of the seats in that state legislature . Schleswig – Holstein had been taken from Denmark by Germany in a war that had broken out in 1864 and again in 1866, although in 1920 the northern third of Schleswig was returned to Denmark after a League of Nations sponsored referendum had been held on the issue as one of the terms of the Versailles Peace Treaty with Germany . The Nazis gained their lowest votes in the rural and mainly Catholic areas of southern Bavaria , while they gained more votes in the northern parts of Bavaria , also known as Franconia , an area of Germany that has a mixed Catholic and Lutheran population . One of the reasons why Germany , out of all other nations , had the Nazis come to power during the economic Great Depression of 1929 – 1939 , was because Germany lacked a strong democratic tradition . Between 1850 – 1919 , the German state of Brandenburg – Prussia had a three class electoral law , although the state of Bavaria had introduced universal adult male suffrage in 1904 , followed by Baden – Wurttemberg [ formerly Swabia ] , in 1906 . The German state governments nominated the members of the German federal upper house , the Bundesrat , which , along with the German Chancellor and Kaiser , had final veto powers over the German federal lower house , the Bundestag . The German Catholics are found mostly in the southern , south-eastern , and western parts of Germany , and in March 1938 German – speaking Austria was " forcibly " annexed by Nazi Germany . Martin Luther the German [ born 1483 - died 1546 ] , basing his views on St. Paul’s epistle to the Romans ch. 13 : 1 – 7 , urged that the German peasant revolt of 1525 be brutally suppressed by the German knights , in his 1525 printed and published essay called "Against the Thieving and Murdering Hordes of Peasants ." St . Paul the Apostle wrote in his epistle to the Romans , chapter 13 : 1 – 7 , that all authorities who wield the sword are appointed by God to enforce the law . The word "authorities" is a plural word however . In the U.S.A. , the adult male citizen voters , who have the constitutional authority to elect their politicians , also have the constitutional authority under the Second Bill of Rights to bear arms as members of a well regulated state militia , for example , the U.S. National Guard , which the U.S. Supreme Court interpreted as being a safeguard intended by the American law makers of the 1780’s to protect the states from any likelihood that the U.S. federal government would become dictatorial , although the state , county , and municipal governments are just as likely to become dictatorial , as the southern U.S. states often treated their black , or very dark brown minorities , in a dictatorial manner . However , I still believe that rioters should be dispersed by firing rubber coated metal bullets into their legs , stomachs , and chests , with the use of scopes for accurate aiming and semi – automatic rifles to control the rate of fire . The safety of the riot police comes before the safety of rioters , because peaceful and legal protesters lose many civil rights when they decide to become violent rioters and cowardly mob tyrants . Martin Luther’s views on predestination and God’s foreknowledge are set out in his 1525 published essay called "On the Bondage of the Will." Although free will exists according to 1 Timothy 2 : 1 – 4 and 2 Peter 3 : 9 , since these two references from the New Testament says that God wants everyone to be saved , God , who is eternal , with no beginning and no end , and who is all knowing , knows what choices people will make in the future [ see the Acts of the Apostles 15 : 18 ] . God is not the author of evil , but Satan , the fallen angel , is . Personally , I have up to a certain extent great admiration for Girolamo Savonarola [ 1452 - 1498 ] and Cornelius Otto Jansen [ 1585 - 1638 ] . From faith and the gift of God’s grace, good works flow [ see Ephesians 2 : 8 - 10 by St. Paul the Apostle ]. Repenting out of fear or attrition is acceptable according to Proverbs 13 : 13 , Proverbs 14 : 26 – 27, and Proverbs 19 : 23 , but repenting out of contrition or genuine sorrow is even better . Most of the Japanese are Mahayana Buddhists and Shintoists at the same time . The Mahayana Buddhists are the Protestants of Buddhism , as opposed to the Theravada Buddhists , who are the Catholics of Buddhism . The Mahayana Buddhists believe that members of the Buddhist laity , as well as members of the Buddhist monkhood , can achieve nirvana more quickly . The Mahayana Buddhists also tend to place greater emphasis on the sincerity of a believer’s faith , the relationship between motives and methods , and the role of divine grace , then Theravada Buddhists do . In 1925 universal adult male suffrage or voting rights was introduced for national elections for the first time in the history of Japan , although by 1941 Japan had become a one – party state military dictatorship . Since 1911 , the martial art of judo , which traces its ancestry to the samurai martial art of jujitsu , has been a compulsory subject in Japanese schools for students above the age of 8 years , although it was banned as a compulsory subject in Japanese schools from 1945 – 1951 , after which it was again reintroduced as a compulsory school subject from the age of 8 years and upwards . After 1945 , the requirement of all … read more »

Response:

What are you talking about?  Islam is nothing like Christianity or Judaism.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Inconsistent with the teaching of the Council of Jerusalem.Act 15 Inconsistent with Paul’s teaching when he said that Peter was sent by God to the circumcised and he Paul was sent to the uncircumcised. If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge? Given this fact, it is safe to say that there was no single Church at the beginning as the pharisees who accepted Jesus as their Messiah could never gentilized and the gentiles could never judaized. It was meant to be two world at the very begining Paul never preached outside the Greeco-Roman world. One universal Church run by a pope from Rome is a fraud and was never meant by God. It is Commun sense. One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS.

Response:

If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge?

If you read Acts and the letters of Paul it is obvious that Paul and Peter kept in communication, and had disputes on doctrine. It is true that missionary work was divided up, with Paul taking responsibility for the Greek world, but this doesn’t imply two churches, any more than a company with branches in Britain and America is two companies. One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS.

The problem is that the length of time the Jewish church is supposed to have survived, undocumented, until the Islamic period.

Response:

Inconsistent with the teaching of the Council of Jerusalem.Act 15 Inconsistent with Paul’s teaching when he said that Peter was sent by God to the circumcised and he Paul was sent to the uncircumcised. If There were two different groups and doctrines, there would never be one single Church. Yet the papacy want us to believe that there was one catholic Church. the question is, since when did they merge? Given this fact, it is safe to say that there was no single Church at the beginning as the pharisees who accepted Jesus as their Messiah could never gentilized and the gentiles could never judaized. It was meant to be two world at the very begining Paul never preached outside the Greeco-Roman world. One universal Church run by a pope from Rome is a fraud and was never meant by God. It is Commun sense. One Christianity, one Church, two different versions. The gentiles version survived as Catholic, the jews version survived as Islam. The TWO WORLDS.

Response:

nationalist Imperial concept of church.   According to the Qur’an, the orthodox are right on this. I do believe the correction that the Qur’an brought in this matter as apposed to the papal inventions

Since it was Jesus who said, "My kingdom is not of this world,"  any nationalistic concept of church is mixing the worldly with the holy.  It’s amazing how the Qur’an reflects so accurately the Prophet’s worldly designs, one part John the Baptist and two parts Alexander the Great.

Response:

He was still out doing church planting when he was arrested. He was in Arabia but he did not plant any Church there, why?

You don’t know much Christian church history, do you?  After he was converted, he went for an extended retreat to the desert.  His mission didn’t start until long afterwards. The point is that, Paul did not send nobody in mission.

In English, a double negative is a positive.  You’re right; he did not send nobody because he sent somebody.  Timothy and Titus were his emissaries; so was Onesimus.   If Mission as you understand it was the central tenet of the new faith, Paul would have sent somebody beyond the border of the Roman Empire.

Paul wasn’t the only apostle, nor the only one doing the sending.  Paul himself was sent by the church of Antioch.  We have records that the other apostles went to other places.  After Peter and Paul were captured, Mark went to Alexandria.  Mark’s church sent apostles into Ethiopia.   The entire first and second century is the story of Christian expansion both inside and outside the Roman Empire.   Mission as you papists understand it is a fraud.

Fraud???  You’re just jealous that we’ve saved so many souls from sin.

Response:

nationalist Imperial concept of church.   According to the Qur’an, the orthodox are right on this. I do believe the correction that the Qur’an brought in this matter as apposed to the papal inventions Since it was Jesus who said, "My kingdom is not of this world,"  any nationalistic concept of church is mixing the worldly with the holy.  It’s amazing how the Qur’an reflects so accurately the Prophet’s worldly designs, one part John the Baptist and two parts Alexander the Great.

 We are talking about the Church of Jesus the Messiah of Israel.  You are talking about the Church of Jesus,the Son of God.  No wonder you can not get it.  Even If his kingdom is not of this world, any kingdom of this world should  be the reflection of the heavenly one. This is what it is meant by Messiah  being a leader like Moses Deut 18:15

Response:

He was still out doing church planting when he was arrested. He was in Arabia but he did not plant any Church there, why? You don’t know much Christian church history, do you?  After he was converted, he went for an extended retreat to the desert.  His mission didn’t start until long afterwards.

 Why he did not go back where he retreated knowing that those people  needed to hear the Gospel of salvation The point is that, Paul did not send nobody in mission. In English, a double negative is a positive.  You’re right; he did not send nobody because he sent somebody.  Timothy and Titus were his emissaries; so was

 His emissaries to what kingdom? He gave them instructions to organize  churches that he already planted within the borders of the Greeco Roman  world. Nowhere else. Onesimus.   If Mission as you understand it was the central tenet of the new faith, Paul would have sent somebody beyond the border of the Roman Empire. Paul wasn’t the only apostle, nor the only one doing the sending.  Paul himself was sent by the church of Antioch.  We have records that the other apostles went to other places.  After Peter and Paul were captured, Mark went to Alexandria.  Mark’s church sent apostles into Ethiopia.

 This is history according to papal source, as we know papal source  needs to be trusted.  If this is what they did, they labored against God’s will.It is your  reading of history but the one who wrote the Acts of the Apostle is  implying something quiete different.  Do you think holding to papal authority by confusing the subject matter.  This is called deception. The entire first and second century is the story of Christian expansion both inside and outside the Roman Empire.

 But not under the authority of papal Curia. The Aposltes were sent around  the wolrd to proclaimed the advent of the Messiah of Israel. Up to each  nation to organize its own Church according to its cultural values. This  is the meaning of Mission. You made us believe that the popes were  sent in mission. That is not the case. It is called invasion when one  national Church aspire to be universal, it will have to distort history  to fit its purpose. THANK YOU JESUS FOR MOHAMMAD, HE WAS NOT FOOLED. Mission as you papists understand it is a fraud. Fraud???  You’re just jealous that we’ve saved so many souls from sin.

 But you also robbed so many.

Response:

The Human Buddha

Question:

(Little, ugly, queer, bald-headed P-R-I-C-K-like tantrum snipt due to it being written by an illiterate) ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~: HAY, this Aziz Kristof writes pretty good. A lot better than OUR present, ignorant GooRoo. StPehen, why not just shut your pie-hole and you might learn something. And even if you aren’t capable of learning something, don’t impede those others here just because you are educationally&folically challenged. Heh heh heh heh

Response:

And after reading this it is obvious that Aziz is not Enlightened by his own standards so why do you have all this bullshit

here? ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~: To REPLACE your bullshit… His BS is BETTER than YOUR BS. And I hate to say this, because it is a real slap in the face of Aziz, but he is as enlightened as you are! Look StPehen, you may want a one world government with YOU as the leader. But it ain’t gonna happen. You may want to have your picture up everywhere, like Saddam Hussein, but that too ain’t gonna happen. And then you will want statues of you everywhere, and then you will want everyone to start shaving their heads, and popping their jaws. Well, none of that is gonna happen. Look, I’ve tried and tried to explain this to you time&time again, but your shit-for-brains lack of mental equipment keeps you in denial. No one gives a flying fuck for what YOU think, want, or need. You are a useless no-body, a loser, and a little, ugly, queer, bald-headed P-R-I-C-K, and as such have absolutely no value as a human. You literally cannot pound shit in a rathole. but I don’t mean that in a bad way. StPehen is DEAD… Long live Aziz!!! Heh heh heh heh

Response:

*****SPV…..And after reading this it is obvious that Aziz is not Enlightened by his own standards so why do you have all this bullshit

here? Your addiction to playing the fool isn’t even in your conscious realization. It stems from genetic propensities that will haunt you until you die, which by all indications won’t be long now.

Response:

*****SPV…..And after reading this it is obvious that Aziz is not Enlightened by his own standards so why do you have all this bullshit here? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Human Buddha The Self Realised What is it to be Self-realised? When one has completed this immense task of becoming whole, one begins the life of an enlightened being. But there are new mysteries awaiting us, new challenges on the horizon. There is still a strong need for clarity and direction. The teaching of Guidance is not only addressed to those on the Path but to those who are already awakened as well. An enlightened being still needs guidance to reach freedom from the incorrect interpretation of his or her state and guidance for further evolution. After completing the traditional model of Enlightenment, the real evolution begins. But so far no one has ever spoken about it. You are invited here with us to explore the dimension of Enlightenment and beyond. Table of Contents Is there Only One Enlightenment? To Miss One’s Awakening! Who is Enlightened? Are all Masters in the Same State? Self-realisation – Self-confidence Is Enlightenment the Same for Men and Women? The Other Shore is Now A Mystic is One with the Mystery Enlightenment beyond Enlightenment Coming Back to the Market Place Enlightened Women Transcending the Myth of Satori Truth about the Sudden Enlightenment Enlightenment: The Divine Boredom To Understand one’s Awakening After Enlightenment The Impact of Awakening on the Collective Mind Verification of Enlightenment Not-thinking is not the Absence of Thoughts Enlightened Masters Happiness and Beyond Happiness Truth is Beyond Both: Destiny and Free Will Awakening is Now! Is there Only One Enlightenment? Student: You said that there are several types of Enlightenment. Can you speak about it? Aziz: We will clarify this matter in the following meetings. To present it briefly, we can say that the First Enlightenment is the awakening of witnessing consciousness, which is awareness without content. It takes place in the third eye. This is the State of Presence and when it is established permanently, this type of Enlightenment is complete. Here, the centre of awareness is constantly present in the background of the mind. In Zen, they call it the ‘clear mind;’ in Dzogchen ‘rigpa’ or bare awareness. In the ancient scriptures of the Upanishads, they gave it the name of ‘turiya’ or the fourth state. The next Enlightenment is to the Absolute State. Even within the knowledge of available traditions, the Absolute State has been a secret. Most seekers and teachers from different traditions of Enlightenment consider pure awareness to be the ultimate. however, this is incorrect. Realisation of the Absolute takes place through the Being quality of I Am. In Zen there is an expression, ‘the bottom of the bucket falls out,’ referring to the shift beyond consciousness. The ‘bucket’ represents I Am experienced only within the individual energy system. Through the shift to the Absolute, the Soul becomes one with the Unmanifested. That was the reason why Buddha Shakyamuni negated the Hindu concept that Brahman is the ultimate. In his understanding, Brahman was the equivalent to pure consciousness. He discovered that consciousness itself still belongs to the Created Reality. Unfortunately, the way he expressed his understanding was later interpreted in a negative sense. Even though Buddhism claims to be the middle path, in-between eternalism and nihilism, still, the balance moves strongly towards nihilism. At least that is the case with the original school of Theravada. The idea of the middle path is that the Ultimate is neither described in terms of being ’something’ nor being ‘nothing.’ In this way, the human mind pays homage to the inexpressible nature of the Absolute. However, if we want to be precise, the Absolute possesses one inherent quality which is absolutely positive – the Absolute IS. Buddhism, in truth is more apt to speak about reality in terms of ‘no-self’ rather than ‘neither self nor no-self.’ And to say that there is no-self is to go against the principle of the middle path. The only Master who clearly differentiated between the realisation of pure consciousness and the Absolute was Nisargadatta Maharaj. Maharaj, a great teacher and revolutionary thinker, brought many original discoveries into the traditional interpretation of Advaita Vedanta. The Absolute State can be seen as the Final Enlightenment but this view is incomplete. Evolution still continues and can give rise to the next awakening, Enlightenment to the Heart. It is not true that Enlightenment, as such, must include the Heart. One may be in the Absolute State but have the Heart closed. The Heart brings into the Inner State a profound sensitivity, the flavour of divinity. The Heart is the middle point, the balance between the Absolute and Creation, that is, between the Unmanifested and the Manifested. When one abides purely in the Absolute, the energy is pulled in too much and the Soul is energetically alienated from Creation. When the Heart is awakened, energy moves from absorption in the void to this very precise equilibrium in-between the Inner and the Outer. Here, one is neither in nor out, in the experience of true Oneness. At this point, the Absolute and the Divine become one – Being and the Heart create one field of experience. The next Enlightenment takes us to the realisation of the very experiencer of all, which is the Soul. To Miss One’s Awakening! Student: Is it possible to be awakened and not to know it? Aziz: You might be surprised but it happens quite often. We have met a few students who were in the State of Presence while being, however, completely oblivious to this fact. We have met even one student who wanted to do a special Gurdjiev workshop to ‘make her more aware’ even though she was already in the State of Presence! Such unconscious behaviour! One of the reasons of such a lack of self-knowledge is that most available spiritual teachings are utterly unclear in their description of the Inner States and levels of Self-realisation. Also this whole concept of eliminating the ego has confused thousands of seekers. Even if some seekers do realise the State of Presence, they think that something is wrong with them because their relative Me or ego is still present. They believe that unless they eliminate their ego and stop desiring, they cannot even dream about Enlightenment. They don’t know that if they were unlucky enough to succeed in their attempt to eliminate their ego and desires, they would have reached not Enlightenment but – suicide! This is how inadequate teachings, repeated mechanically for the last thousand of years, have truly damaged a number of sincere seekers. For that reason, we work so much with your intelligence. This very intelligence of yours must wake up and reach clarity. Otherwise you will always be lost… you will remain forever a victim of an incomplete vision of awakening. In the book Enlightenment Beyond Traditions we have written the chapter ‘Verification of Attainment – the Seeker’s Goal.’ It is important to read it. It can give you more clarity about the criteria with the help of which you can verify your inner states. Who is Enlightened? Student: You said that many who teach in the name of Enlightenment are only partially awakened. Aziz: That is correct, and in this statement there is not judgement but clarity. Most spiritual teachers who translate their realisation as Complete Enlightenment are in the State of Presence. Some may not even be stabilised in this experience. Others may represent Enlightenment to the Heart only. Although that is beautiful, it is not complete. The Spiritual Path is not a competition for the highest Enlightenment. We simply give you clarity as to what is happening on the spiritual scene, what the different possibilities are and what options relate to your own evolution. Student: Could you say which spiritual teachers around represent the Final Enlightenment? Aziz: It is not for us to tell it. Use your discriminative wisdom. Be critical and wise. Most important for you is what your state is! The state of others is insignificant unless you submit to a particular master. Even if a spiritual teacher, whom you have chosen for a guide, is not fully Self-realised, you can still learn and grow with this person within the frame of their attainment. If you reach the same state as your master and still wish to evolve further – here, you have to say good bye. Be critical in choosing your spiritual guide. Examine the nature of your master and don’t get fooled by appearances. Even awakening and stabilisation in the State of Presence is a very hard task and for most it takes the whole lifetime. That’s why reaching Final Enlightenment is quite a rare phenomenon. Most important is to understand that there is not One Enlightenment for everybody. For most beings, the feeling of completion relates to the experience of the overall integration in the energies of Awareness, Being and Heart. For most, not even the stabilisation in the State of Presence is the goal. Their goal is to reach an ability to be in this state most of the time and to be able to bring it back at one’s wish when the state is lost. The Absolute State is too extreme for most Souls and in some cases can close the Heart, if it brings too much disidentification. To become one with the Void is like dying. To transcend through the ‘black hole’ within the Hara and merge with the Uncreated is truly a desire of very few Souls. These Souls are rather extreme in their evolution. We must remember that reaching a certain enlightened state does not

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Response:

The Human Buddha The Self Realised What is it to be Self-realised? When one has completed this immense task of becoming whole, one begins the life of an enlightened being.

****SPV……And you do not know so you did not say so you are losing some of your audience right here with your dishonesty.  (Do you guys like it when I show you how to gather the truth from other authors?)   But there are new mysteries awaiting us, new challenges on the horizon. There is still a strong need for clarity and direction.

  The teaching of Guidance is not only addressed to those on the Path but to those who are already awakened as well.

****SPV…….You are going to address the teaching of Guidance towards those that are awakened as well?  Who wrote this teaching of Guidance? You are not addressing the issue involved here.  The teaching of Guidance must be from and Enlightened Being.  Is this so or not.  Just not saying this shows that it is not because the human that wrote this will not think that it needs to be written by the Enlightened and the Enlightend would not miss telling you were it was from.  So I can say without flaw that this was written by an unEnlightened Being and thus is nonsense. And now look how much time I saved you by figuring out what is nonsense and what is not.  Look at what I did for you.  How much time I saved you by looking with clarity at the truth.

Response:

The Human Buddha The Self Realised What is it to be Self-realised? When one has completed this immense task of becoming whole, one begins the life of an enlightened being. But there are new mysteries awaiting us, new challenges on the horizon. There is still a strong need for clarity and direction. The teaching of Guidance is not only addressed to those on the Path but to those who are already awakened as well. An enlightened being still needs guidance to reach freedom from the incorrect interpretation of his or her state and guidance for further evolution. After completing the traditional model of Enlightenment, the real evolution begins. But so far no one has ever spoken about it. You are invited here with us to explore the dimension of Enlightenment and beyond. Table of Contents Is there Only One Enlightenment? To Miss One’s Awakening! Who is Enlightened? Are all Masters in the Same State? Self-realisation – Self-confidence Is Enlightenment the Same for Men and Women? The Other Shore is Now A Mystic is One with the Mystery Enlightenment beyond Enlightenment Coming Back to the Market Place Enlightened Women Transcending the Myth of Satori Truth about the Sudden Enlightenment Enlightenment: The Divine Boredom To Understand one’s Awakening After Enlightenment The Impact of Awakening on the Collective Mind Verification of Enlightenment Not-thinking is not the Absence of Thoughts Enlightened Masters Happiness and Beyond Happiness Truth is Beyond Both: Destiny and Free Will Awakening is Now! Is there Only One Enlightenment? Student: You said that there are several types of Enlightenment. Can you speak about it? Aziz: We will clarify this matter in the following meetings. To present it briefly, we can say that the First Enlightenment is the awakening of witnessing consciousness, which is awareness without content. It takes place in the third eye. This is the State of Presence and when it is established permanently, this type of Enlightenment is complete. Here, the centre of awareness is constantly present in the background of the mind. In Zen, they call it the ‘clear mind;’ in Dzogchen ‘rigpa’ or bare awareness. In the ancient scriptures of the Upanishads, they gave it the name of ‘turiya’ or the fourth state. The next Enlightenment is to the Absolute State. Even within the knowledge of available traditions, the Absolute State has been a secret. Most seekers and teachers from different traditions of Enlightenment consider pure awareness to be the ultimate. however, this is incorrect. Realisation of the Absolute takes place through the Being quality of I Am. In Zen there is an expression, ‘the bottom of the bucket falls out,’ referring to the shift beyond consciousness. The ‘bucket’ represents I Am experienced only within the individual energy system. Through the shift to the Absolute, the Soul becomes one with the Unmanifested. That was the reason why Buddha Shakyamuni negated the Hindu concept that Brahman is the ultimate. In his understanding, Brahman was the equivalent to pure consciousness. He discovered that consciousness itself still belongs to the Created Reality. Unfortunately, the way he expressed his understanding was later interpreted in a negative sense. Even though Buddhism claims to be the middle path, in-between eternalism and nihilism, still, the balance moves strongly towards nihilism. At least that is the case with the original school of Theravada. The idea of the middle path is that the Ultimate is neither described in terms of being ’something’ nor being ‘nothing.’ In this way, the human mind pays homage to the inexpressible nature of the Absolute. However, if we want to be precise, the Absolute possesses one inherent quality which is absolutely positive – the Absolute IS. Buddhism, in truth is more apt to speak about reality in terms of ‘no-self’ rather than ‘neither self nor no-self.’ And to say that there is no-self is to go against the principle of the middle path. The only Master who clearly differentiated between the realisation of pure consciousness and the Absolute was Nisargadatta Maharaj. Maharaj, a great teacher and revolutionary thinker, brought many original discoveries into the traditional interpretation of Advaita Vedanta. The Absolute State can be seen as the Final Enlightenment but this view is incomplete. Evolution still continues and can give rise to the next awakening, Enlightenment to the Heart. It is not true that Enlightenment, as such, must include the Heart. One may be in the Absolute State but have the Heart closed. The Heart brings into the Inner State a profound sensitivity, the flavour of divinity. The Heart is the middle point, the balance between the Absolute and Creation, that is, between the Unmanifested and the Manifested. When one abides purely in the Absolute, the energy is pulled in too much and the Soul is energetically alienated from Creation. When the Heart is awakened, energy moves from absorption in the void to this very precise equilibrium in-between the Inner and the Outer. Here, one is neither in nor out, in the experience of true Oneness. At this point, the Absolute and the Divine become one – Being and the Heart create one field of experience. The next Enlightenment takes us to the realisation of the very experiencer of all, which is the Soul. To Miss One’s Awakening! Student: Is it possible to be awakened and not to know it? Aziz: You might be surprised but it happens quite often. We have met a few students who were in the State of Presence while being, however, completely oblivious to this fact. We have met even one student who wanted to do a special Gurdjiev workshop to ‘make her more aware’ even though she was already in the State of Presence! Such unconscious behaviour! One of the reasons of such a lack of self-knowledge is that most available spiritual teachings are utterly unclear in their description of the Inner States and levels of Self-realisation. Also this whole concept of eliminating the ego has confused thousands of seekers. Even if some seekers do realise the State of Presence, they think that something is wrong with them because their relative Me or ego is still present. They believe that unless they eliminate their ego and stop desiring, they cannot even dream about Enlightenment. They don’t know that if they were unlucky enough to succeed in their attempt to eliminate their ego and desires, they would have reached not Enlightenment but – suicide! This is how inadequate teachings, repeated mechanically for the last thousand of years, have truly damaged a number of sincere seekers. For that reason, we work so much with your intelligence. This very intelligence of yours must wake up and reach clarity. Otherwise you will always be lost… you will remain forever a victim of an incomplete vision of awakening. In the book Enlightenment Beyond Traditions we have written the chapter ‘Verification of Attainment – the Seeker’s Goal.’ It is important to read it. It can give you more clarity about the criteria with the help of which you can verify your inner states. Who is Enlightened? Student: You said that many who teach in the name of Enlightenment are only partially awakened. Aziz: That is correct, and in this statement there is not judgement but clarity. Most spiritual teachers who translate their realisation as Complete Enlightenment are in the State of Presence. Some may not even be stabilised in this experience. Others may represent Enlightenment to the Heart only. Although that is beautiful, it is not complete. The Spiritual Path is not a competition for the highest Enlightenment. We simply give you clarity as to what is happening on the spiritual scene, what the different possibilities are and what options relate to your own evolution. Student: Could you say which spiritual teachers around represent the Final Enlightenment? Aziz: It is not for us to tell it. Use your discriminative wisdom. Be critical and wise. Most important for you is what your state is! The state of others is insignificant unless you submit to a particular master. Even if a spiritual teacher, whom you have chosen for a guide, is not fully Self-realised, you can still learn and grow with this person within the frame of their attainment. If you reach the same state as your master and still wish to evolve further – here, you have to say good bye. Be critical in choosing your spiritual guide. Examine the nature of your master and don’t get fooled by appearances. Even awakening and stabilisation in the State of Presence is a very hard task and for most it takes the whole lifetime. That’s why reaching Final Enlightenment is quite a rare phenomenon. Most important is to understand that there is not One Enlightenment for everybody. For most beings, the feeling of completion relates to the experience of the overall integration in the energies of Awareness, Being and Heart. For most, not even the stabilisation in the State of Presence is the goal. Their goal is to reach an ability to be in this state most of the time and to be able to bring it back at one’s wish when the state is lost. The Absolute State is too extreme for most Souls and in some cases can close the Heart, if it brings too much disidentification. To become one with the Void is like dying. To transcend through the ‘black hole’ within the Hara and merge with the Uncreated is truly a desire of very few Souls. These Souls are rather extreme in their evolution. We must remember that reaching a certain enlightened state does not always bring complete happiness. The main reason that most Souls incarnate is not to reach Enlightenment but to experience this very life and realise their desires. The awakening of I Am does not merely take you away from the adventure of life, it allows you to see clearly what it is that you want. Otherwise, one is neurotic and the mind creates endless desires not allowing one to catch up with fulfilling them. When there is silence you can see; your eyes are clear for the first … read more »

Response:

Einstein on Religion

Question:

Get down on your knees and pray, Shawn!  The spirit is ALL around, tonight!! Elmo I worship tiger stripped Les Pauls!!!!!hahahaha — Regards,

Penance by Order of Perverted Catholic Priest

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A Catholic priest was jailed for indecency after he ordered young men to strip naked, then gagged and blindfolded them, hung them upside down from the ceiling, and then molested them. Then he had the unholy audacity to actually say that it was a legitimate practice of penance. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/19/1082326119166.html That is sick.  What on earth possessed him to do that? God bless, Stephen I am heartened to hear that you do not acknowledge this perversion to be.. "a legitimate form of penance."

Of course not … nor would the vast majority of priests. And I hope that nothing of this nature happened to you or Shan when you were Catholic boys.

I can only speak for me – no. If I were a responsible Catholic parent, I would  =NEVER=  permit any of my kids to be alone with any priest.

I think that most priests, like most teachers, and most doctors, are safe. I’ve come across suspicious types in all three fields. God bless, Stephen — — Stephen Korsman www.theotokos.co.za www.theotokos.co.za/adventism IC | XC NI | KA

Response:

No.. I said, "responsible parent."   Do as you will with your children, I would not have mine gagged, hanging upside down from the church ceiling.

But it is irresponsible to assume as you do that because there is one crazy priest, that all priests are equally crazy.  You wouldn’t make the same global assumption if you read that one coach had his team run for six hours without any water, or one biology teacher took her class out naked into the forest. And yet those things have happened.   So now your kids are out of sports and out of school?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A Catholic priest was jailed for indecency after he ordered young men to strip naked, then gagged and blindfolded them, hung them upside down from the ceiling, and then molested them. Then he had the unholy audacity to actually say that it was a legitimate practice of penance. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/19/1082326119166.html That is sick.  What on earth possessed him to do that? God bless, Stephen I am heartened to hear that you do not acknowledge this perversion to be.. "a legitimate form of penance."   And I hope that nothing of this nature happened to you or Shan when you were Catholic boys. If I were a responsible Catholic parent, I would  =NEVER=  permit any of my kids to be alone with any priest.    In fact.. I would teach them that they may confess their sins DIRECTLY to our loving and merciful Savior, who IS our heavenly high priest. Andrew Ah yes, paint everyone with the same broad brush.  By your logic, we should take all children from their parents at birth.  By far the greatest amount of abuse comes from parents.

No.. I said, "responsible parent."   Do as you will with your children, I would not have mine gagged, hanging upside down from the church ceiling.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A Catholic priest was jailed for indecency after he ordered young men to strip naked, then gagged and blindfolded them, hung them upside down from the ceiling, and then molested them. Then he had the unholy audacity to actually say that it was a legitimate practice of penance. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/19/1082326119166.html That is sick.  What on earth possessed him to do that? I also have to wonder about the guys he did this to.  Get naked, blindfolded and hung upside down while you bang on my genitals? Sure, father, I can see how that will help my spiritual growth.